In article <2021Sep15.111126@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>,
Anton Ertl <anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at> wrote:
>The "mastery and understanding" aspect remains as a source of
>popularity, but it's a limited popularity. More programmers choose a
>language for a project to be able to program (and maintain) some
>functionality relatively easily than for the feeling of mastery and
>understanding. And these two aspect are at odds with each other, also
>within Forth. A system like Gforth has many features that make it
>convenient for programming, but it is too large and complicated to
>inspire the feeling of mastery and understanding. OTOH, eForth or
>JonesForth give that feeling, but do people write significant
>applications with them? I don't think so.

Jonesforth is basically ciforth minus the libraries. The feeling
is not much different.

ciasdis is written in ciforth. It was used to analyse colorforth.
It can disassemble and reassemble colorforth, weird character coding,
character sets, blocks, boot code and all.
I maintain that ciasdis count as a "significant application".
It required actual mastery and understanding, not just the feeling.

>
>- anton

Groetjes Albert
--
"in our communism country Viet Nam, people are forced to be
alive and in the western country like US, people are free to
die from Covid 19 lol" duc ha
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

On 15/09/2021 12:11, Anton Ertl wrote:

> unclear if we would not have lost these programmers anyway. Other
> efforts in that direction, but much later (mostly after many had been
> lost), are Factor, Oforth and Eighth.

Not to be 'that guy', but it's "8th", not 'Eighth'... though perhaps it
would have been a better name choice.

Ron AARON <clf@8th-dev.com> writes:
>
>
>On 15/09/2021 12:11, Anton Ertl wrote:
>
>> unclear if we would not have lost these programmers anyway. Other
>> efforts in that direction, but much later (mostly after many had been
>> lost), are Factor, Oforth and Eighth.
>
>Not to be 'that guy', but it's "8th", not 'Eighth'...

I apologize.

>though perhaps it
>would have been a better name choice.

Both google and duckduckgo don't deliver your language on the first
page to me when searching for 8th (but "8th programming" works), so a
less frequently used name could have been beneficial; I don't think
that "Eighth" would have been better in that respect.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2021: https://euro.theforth.net/2021

On 17/09/2021 14:18, Ron AARON wrote:
>
>
> On 15/09/2021 12:11, Anton Ertl wrote:
>
>> unclear if we would not have lost these programmers anyway. Other
>> efforts in that direction, but much later (mostly after many had been
>> lost), are Factor, Oforth and Eighth.
>
> Not to be 'that guy', but it's "8th", not 'Eighth'... though perhaps it
> would have been a better name choice.

So it's not just Biden who can't remember an insignificant name :)

On 17/09/2021 8:24, Anton Ertl wrote:
> Ron AARON <clf@8th-dev.com> writes:
>>
>>
>> On 15/09/2021 12:11, Anton Ertl wrote:
>>
>>> unclear if we would not have lost these programmers anyway. Other
>>> efforts in that direction, but much later (mostly after many had been
>>> lost), are Factor, Oforth and Eighth.
>>
>> Not to be 'that guy', but it's "8th", not 'Eighth'...
>
> I apologize.

No need, indeed.

>
>> though perhaps it
>> would have been a better name choice.
>
> Both google and duckduckgo don't deliver your language on the first
> page to me when searching for 8th (but "8th programming" works), so a
> less frequently used name could have been beneficial; I don't think
> that "Eighth" would have been better in that respect.

I know; I had thought it a clever name, before I realized the Google-foo
was very weak.

So it goes...

On 17/09/2021 19:00, Ron AARON wrote:
>
>
> On 17/09/2021 8:24, Anton Ertl wrote:
>> Ron AARON <clf@8th-dev.com> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 15/09/2021 12:11, Anton Ertl wrote:
>>>
>>>> unclear if we would not have lost these programmers anyway. Other
>>>> efforts in that direction, but much later (mostly after many had been
>>>> lost), are Factor, Oforth and Eighth.
>>>
>>> Not to be 'that guy', but it's "8th", not 'Eighth'...
>>
>> I apologize.
>
> No need, indeed.
>
>>
>>> though perhaps it
>>> would have been a better name choice.
>>
>> Both google and duckduckgo don't deliver your language on the first
>> page to me when searching for 8th (but "8th programming" works), so a
>> less frequently used name could have been beneficial; I don't think
>> that "Eighth" would have been better in that respect.
>
> I know; I had thought it a clever name, before I realized the Google-foo
> was very weak.
>
> So it goes...
>

Serious research requires leg-work:

https://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/8th.html

On 2021-09-17 12:29, dxforth wrote:
> On 17/09/2021 19:00, Ron AARON wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 17/09/2021 8:24, Anton Ertl wrote:
>>> Ron AARON <clf@8th-dev.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 15/09/2021 12:11, Anton Ertl wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> unclear if we would not have lost these programmers anyway.  Other
>>>>> efforts in that direction, but much later (mostly after many had been
>>>>> lost), are Factor, Oforth and Eighth.
>>>>
>>>> Not to be 'that guy', but it's "8th", not 'Eighth'...
>>>
>>> I apologize.
>>
>> No need, indeed.
>>
>>>
>>>> though perhaps it
>>>> would have been a better name choice.
>>>
>>> Both google and duckduckgo don't deliver your language on the first
>>> page to me when searching for 8th (but "8th programming" works), so a
>>> less frequently used name could have been beneficial; I don't think
>>> that "Eighth" would have been better in that respect.
>>
>> I know; I had thought it a clever name, before I realized the Google-foo
>> was very weak.
>>
>> So it goes...
>>
>
> Serious research requires leg-work:
>
> https://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/8th.html

Huh. After what, almost seven years? of my 8th, this is the first I've
heard of this other 8th...

On 9/17/21 5:00 AM, Ron AARON wrote:
> On 17/09/2021 8:24, Anton Ertl wrote:

>> Both google and duckduckgo don't deliver your language on the first
>> page to me when searching for 8th (but "8th programming" works),
....

> I know; I had thought it a clever name, before I realized the Google-foo
> was very weak.

Ron, Maybe somewhere you displayed a lack of sufficient "woke-ness".
That will get you kicked out or at least moved off the first page of big
tech search engine algorithm results. ;-)

-Doug

On 2021-09-17 14:47, Doug Hoffman wrote:
> On 9/17/21 5:00 AM, Ron AARON wrote:
>> On 17/09/2021 8:24, Anton Ertl wrote:
>
>>> Both google and duckduckgo don't deliver your language on the first
>>> page to me when searching for 8th (but "8th programming" works),
> ...
>
>> I know; I had thought it a clever name, before I realized the
>> Google-foo was very weak.
>
> Ron, Maybe somewhere you displayed a lack of sufficient "woke-ness".
> That will get you kicked out or at least moved off the first page of big
> tech search engine algorithm results. ;-)

Oh, now, that's certainly a possibility :)

Ron AARON <clf@8th-dev.com> writes:
>
>
>On 2021-09-17 12:29, dxforth wrote:
>> https://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/8th.html
>
>Huh. After what, almost seven years? of my 8th, this is the first I've
>heard of this other 8th...

In spring I started a project called fforth (the idea is that is is
between eforth and gforth; more modern than eforth, simpler than
gforth). The present thread inspired me to do a web search for
fforth, and it's indeed a good name, because I found a Forth system
called fforth right away: the first hit on duckduckgo and my first
english-language hit on google is <http://cowlark.com/fforth/>.
Unfortunately, it's not my project:-). Now what?

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2021: https://euro.theforth.net/2021

On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 6:17:25 PM UTC+2, Anton Ertl wrote:
> In spring I started a project called fforth (the idea is that is is
> between eforth and gforth; more modern than eforth, simpler than
> gforth). The present thread inspired me to do a web search for
> fforth, and it's indeed a good name, because I found a Forth system
> called fforth right away: the first hit on duckduckgo and my first
> english-language hit on google is <http://cowlark.com/fforth/>.
> Unfortunately, it's not my project:-). Now what?
> - anton
> --
> M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
> comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
> New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
> EuroForth 2021: https://euro.theforth.net/2021

Call it aeForth (advanced eforth). Also refers to your initials.

On Friday, 17 September 2021 at 18:29:56 UTC+1, Heinrich Hohl wrote:
> On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 6:17:25 PM UTC+2, Anton Ertl wrote:
> > In spring I started a project called fforth (the idea is that is is
> > between eforth and gforth; more modern than eforth, simpler than
> > gforth). The present thread inspired me to do a web search for
> > fforth, and it's indeed a good name, because I found a Forth system
> > called fforth right away: the first hit on duckduckgo and my first
> > english-language hit on google is <http://cowlark.com/fforth/>.
> > Unfortunately, it's not my project:-). Now what?
> > - anton
> > --
> > M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
> > comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
> > New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
> > EuroForth 2021: https://euro.theforth.net/2021

" Call it aeForth (advanced eforth). Also refers to your initials "

what a brilliant idea
- this would as well give Ting more credit for all of the work he has done.
Software and Forth chips.

For me he did the two extremes:
eForth as Arduino Sketch - for the maker community,
download and load the sketch into your UNO or nano and start programming Forth programs
https://wiki.forth-ev.de/doku.php/projects:430eforth:start
The other extreme is eForth in Javascript and Java recently

On 17/09/2021 17:10, Anton Ertl wrote:
> Ron AARON <clf@8th-dev.com> writes:
>>
>>
>> On 2021-09-17 12:29, dxforth wrote:
>>> https://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/8th.html
>>
>> Huh. After what, almost seven years? of my 8th, this is the first I've
>> heard of this other 8th...
>
> In spring I started a project called fforth (the idea is that is is
> between eforth and gforth; more modern than eforth, simpler than
> gforth). The present thread inspired me to do a web search for
> fforth, and it's indeed a good name, because I found a Forth system
> called fforth right away: the first hit on duckduckgo and my first
> english-language hit on google is <http://cowlark.com/fforth/>.
> Unfortunately, it's not my project:-). Now what?
>

fforth with the double f looks like a Welsh word and there is a Welsh
word spelled ffordd, where the dd is pronounced with a th sound, that
means 'way' or 'road' (whether to enlightenment or perdition - take your
pick - perhaps the latter is reserved for those who use PICK).
Coincidentally there's a village in Wales called Minffordd.

--
Gerry

On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 6:17:25 PM UTC+2, Anton Ertl wrote:
[..]
> In spring I started a project called fforth (the idea is that is is
> between eforth and gforth; more modern than eforth, simpler than
> gforth). The present thread inspired me to do a web search for
> fforth, and it's indeed a good name, because I found a Forth system
> called fforth right away: the first hit on duckduckgo and my first
> english-language hit on google is <http://cowlark.com/fforth/>.
> Unfortunately, it's not my project:-). Now what?

I called my first Forth FForth (fast Forth, the obsession started early).
It is mentioned in the Dutch Vijgeblad somewhere, but Google can't
find it and it therefore didn't exist.

-marcel

Anton Ertl schrieb am Freitag, 17. September 2021 um 18:17:25 UTC+2:
> Ron AARON <c...@8th-dev.com> writes:
> >
> >
> >On 2021-09-17 12:29, dxforth wrote:
> >> https://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/8th.html
> >
> >Huh. After what, almost seven years? of my 8th, this is the first I've
> >heard of this other 8th...
> In spring I started a project called fforth (the idea is that is is
> between eforth and gforth; more modern than eforth, simpler than
> gforth). The present thread inspired me to do a web search for
> fforth, and it's indeed a good name, because I found a Forth system
> called fforth right away: the first hit on duckduckgo and my first
> english-language hit on google is <http://cowlark.com/fforth/>.
> Unfortunately, it's not my project:-). Now what?

Similar intentions - i.e. a modernized eforth - went with hforth
https://www.taygeta.com/hforth.html

On 18/09/2021 06:02, Marcel Hendrix wrote:
> On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 6:17:25 PM UTC+2, Anton Ertl wrote:
> [..]
>> In spring I started a project called fforth (the idea is that is is
>> between eforth and gforth; more modern than eforth, simpler than
>> gforth). The present thread inspired me to do a web search for
>> fforth, and it's indeed a good name, because I found a Forth system
>> called fforth right away: the first hit on duckduckgo and my first
>> english-language hit on google is <http://cowlark.com/fforth/>.
>> Unfortunately, it's not my project:-). Now what?
>
> I called my first Forth FForth (fast Forth, the obsession started early).
> It is mentioned in the Dutch Vijgeblad somewhere, but Google can't
> find it and it therefore didn't exist.

Google isn't the Akashic Records - as much as everyone would like to
treat it as one :)

Marcel Hendrix <mhx@iae.nl> writes:
>I called my first Forth FForth (fast Forth, the obsession started early).
>It is mentioned in the Dutch Vijgeblad somewhere, but Google can't
>find it and it therefore didn't exist.

Thanks all for the input. I have decided that for now I will call my
system Fforth, which is not quite the same name as Marcel Hendrix'
FForth and David Given's fforth.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2021: https://euro.theforth.net/2021

"minf...@arcor.de" <minforth@arcor.de> writes:
>Similar intentions - i.e. a modernized eforth - went with hforth
>https://www.taygeta.com/hforth.html

Reading this article with a quarter-century of hindsight is
interesting. hforth attacks the ROMmability problem and
multi-tasking, both of which I do not plan to address myself in Fforth
(but the idea is that anyone can pick it up and modify it as desired).

The more interesting aspects of the article for me are the Section
"Jump Table Interpreter" which discusses the text interpreter design
and optiCOMPILE,; and the Section "Special compilation action for
default compilation semantics", which discusses something similar to
SET-OPTIMIZER.

The text interpreter is implemented through a table of xts (indexed
with STATE and the FIND result) rather than hard-coded. This table
allows modifying/extending the text interpreter by putting in
different xts, and the article talks about that. It's pretty far from
current recognizer proposals, but pointing into that direction.

optiCOMPILE, is semantically equivalent to COMPILE, but implements
optimizations, in particular inlining (the paper also mentions
eliminating CHARS, but inlining should cover that, too).

The "Special compilation action for default compilation semantics"
gives the example:

:NONAME EXECUTE POSTPONE 2LITERAL ;
: 2CONSTANT
CREATE SWAP , , compiles> DOES> DUP @ SWAP CELL+ @ ;

where "compiles>" takes the xt of the :NONAME definition and uses
somehow for performing the compilation semantics. Apparently the
affected words (e.g., those defined with 2CONSTANT) have a flag set,
and when the compilation semantics is performed on such a word, the xt
passed to "compiles>" is called, with the xt of the compiled word on
the stack. Given the description of the text interpreter,
"optiCOMPILE," has to do this check and call the xt; the article also
mentions POSTPONE, so maybe POSTPONE does not achieve this through
"optiCOMPILE,", or maybe the mention just means that POSTPONE calls
"optiCOMPILE,", not COMPILE,.

In more recent concepts (I'll use Gforth as an example here, but
several other systems have similar concepts), there is not difference
between COMPILE, and "optiCOMPILE,". The code in the :NONAME can be
used to compile a 2constant, and is therefore a proper implementation
of COMPILE, for words defined by 2CONSTANT. The Gforth equivalent of
"compiles>" is called SET-OPTIMIZER, in VFX it is called SET-COMPILER.

One observation is still true:

|It is the user's responsibility to match special compilation action
|with the default compilation semantics.

This means that you must not try to use SET-OPTIMIZER to define
non-default compilation semantics. Those who have tried have found
that while it works as intended in many cases, it does the wrong thing
in other cases, and trying to work around that leads to additional
complications.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2021: https://euro.theforth.net/2021

On 2021-09-17 19:10, Anton Ertl wrote:
> Ron AARON <clf@8th-dev.com> writes:
>>
>>
>> On 2021-09-17 12:29, dxforth wrote:
>>> https://www.retrotechnology.com/memship/8th.html
>>
>> Huh. After what, almost seven years? of my 8th, this is the first I've
>> heard of this other 8th...
>
> In spring I started a project called fforth (the idea is that is is
> between eforth and gforth; more modern than eforth, simpler than
> gforth). The present thread inspired me to do a web search for
> fforth, and it's indeed a good name, because I found a Forth system
> called fforth right away: the first hit on duckduckgo and my first
> english-language hit on google is <http://cowlark.com/fforth/>.
> Unfortunately, it's not my project:-). Now what?

Heh. Well, I'm clearly not the best person to ask about coming up with
good names...

On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 6:18:42 AM UTC+2, Ron AARON wrote:
> On 15/09/2021 12:11, Anton Ertl wrote:
> Not to be 'that guy', but it's "8th", not 'Eighth'... though perhaps it
> would have been a better name choice.
Well, "a compiler 8th my homework" sounds kind of cool ;-)

Hans Bezemer

On 22/09/2021 19:25, Hans Bezemer wrote:
> On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 6:18:42 AM UTC+2, Ron AARON wrote:
>> On 15/09/2021 12:11, Anton Ertl wrote:
>> Not to be 'that guy', but it's "8th", not 'Eighth'... though perhaps it
>> would have been a better name choice.
> Well, "a compiler 8th my homework" sounds kind of cool ;-)

<groan....>

On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 7:08:54 PM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
> On 18/09/2021 06:02, Marcel Hendrix wrote:
> > On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 6:17:25 PM UTC+2, Anton Ertl wrote:
> > [..]
> >> In spring I started a project called fforth (the idea is that is is
> >> between eforth and gforth; more modern than eforth, simpler than
> >> gforth). The present thread inspired me to do a web search for
> >> fforth, and it's indeed a good name, because I found a Forth system
> >> called fforth right away: the first hit on duckduckgo and my first
> >> english-language hit on google is <http://cowlark.com/fforth/>.
> >> Unfortunately, it's not my project:-). Now what?
> >
> > I called my first Forth FForth (fast Forth, the obsession started early).
> > It is mentioned in the Dutch Vijgeblad somewhere, but Google can't
> > find it and it therefore didn't exist.
> Google isn't the Akashic Records - as much as everyone would like to
> treat it as one :)

Let's hope Google doesn't figure out how to read the Akashic Records.

I think Forth was always doomed because it can't be used at the enterprise level.
You would inevitably assign maintenance work to someone who hates Forth or shouldn't be laying their hands on Forth.
Forth is good for small groups of smart programmers. How many of those are there?

On 2/10/2021 09:02, Brad Eckert wrote:
> On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 7:08:54 PM UTC-7, dxforth wrote:
>> On 18/09/2021 06:02, Marcel Hendrix wrote:
>> > On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 6:17:25 PM UTC+2, Anton Ertl wrote:
>> > [..]
>> >> In spring I started a project called fforth (the idea is that is is
>> >> between eforth and gforth; more modern than eforth, simpler than
>> >> gforth). The present thread inspired me to do a web search for
>> >> fforth, and it's indeed a good name, because I found a Forth system
>> >> called fforth right away: the first hit on duckduckgo and my first
>> >> english-language hit on google is <http://cowlark.com/fforth/>.
>> >> Unfortunately, it's not my project:-). Now what?
>> >
>> > I called my first Forth FForth (fast Forth, the obsession started early).
>> > It is mentioned in the Dutch Vijgeblad somewhere, but Google can't
>> > find it and it therefore didn't exist.
>> Google isn't the Akashic Records - as much as everyone would like to
>> treat it as one :)
>
> Let's hope Google doesn't figure out how to read the Akashic Records.
>
> I think Forth was always doomed because it can't be used at the enterprise level.
> You would inevitably assign maintenance work to someone who hates Forth or shouldn't be laying their hands on Forth.
> Forth is good for small groups of smart programmers. How many of those are there?

Perhaps not even that. How many gurus do you see working together?
A master/slave relationship would soon develop leading to suppression
of individuality. Chuck had to leave Forth Inc. just as The Beatles
had to split up. It had become stifling.