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devel / comp.lang.forth / IPS - differences from Forth?

SubjectAuthor
* IPS - differences from Forth?dxforth
`* Re: IPS - differences from Forth?Nickolay Kolchin
 +* Re: IPS - differences from Forth?dxforth
 |+- Re: IPS - differences from Forth?Jurgen Pitaske
 |`* Re: IPS - differences from Forth?Rafael Deliano
 | +* Re: IPS - differences from Forth?Jurgen Pitaske
 | |+- Re: IPS - differences from Forth?Jurgen Pitaske
 | |`- Re: IPS - differences from Forth?Rafael Deliano
 | `- Re: IPS - differences from Forth?dxforth
 `* Re: IPS - differences from Forth?Jurgen Pitaske
  `- Re: IPS - differences from Forth?Nickolay Kolchin

1
IPS - differences from Forth?

<sn1f99$1s62$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: dxfo...@gmail.com (dxforth)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: IPS - differences from Forth?
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 10:36:08 +1100
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 by: dxforth - Tue, 16 Nov 2021 23:36 UTC

On 17/11/2021 01:55, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
>> >
>> > https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07SGWCSKT/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i11
>> > ...
>> > a note from there:
>> >
>> > Robin
>> >
>> > 5.0 out of 5 stars The classic description of IPS
>> > Reviewed in the United Kingdom on 28 April 2021
>> > Verified Purchase
>> > IPS was originally developed as a real-world application oriented version of FORTH. The additional features make it more useful for various classes of problems. If you want to know how how to build real-time systems in severely resource limited environments, then this book is for you. [...]

A similar sentiment (Forth wasn't up to the task) was expressed in the original
manual. Has anyone looked at IPS in detail to see what problems it solved that
Forth couldn't?

Re: IPS - differences from Forth?

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Subject: Re: IPS - differences from Forth?
From: nbkolc...@gmail.com (Nickolay Kolchin)
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 by: Nickolay Kolchin - Wed, 17 Nov 2021 01:48 UTC

On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 2:36:12 AM UTC+3, dxforth wrote:
> On 17/11/2021 01:55, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> >> >
> >> > https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07SGWCSKT/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i11
> >> > ...
> >> > a note from there:
> >> >
> >> > Robin
> >> >
> >> > 5.0 out of 5 stars The classic description of IPS
> >> > Reviewed in the United Kingdom on 28 April 2021
> >> > Verified Purchase
> >> > IPS was originally developed as a real-world application oriented version of FORTH. The additional features make it more useful for various classes of problems. If you want to know how how to build real-time systems in severely resource limited environments, then this book is for you. [...]
>
> A similar sentiment (Forth wasn't up to the task) was expressed in the original
> manual. Has anyone looked at IPS in detail to see what problems it solved that
> Forth couldn't?

This is simplified Forth in german. The only original concept is chains multitasking. Was cool on such hardware in late seventies.

Re: IPS - differences from Forth?

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From: dxfo...@gmail.com (dxforth)
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Subject: Re: IPS - differences from Forth?
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 13:48:06 +1100
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 by: dxforth - Wed, 17 Nov 2021 02:48 UTC

On 17/11/2021 12:48, Nickolay Kolchin wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 2:36:12 AM UTC+3, dxforth wrote:
>> On 17/11/2021 01:55, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07SGWCSKT/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i11
>> >> > ...
>> >> > a note from there:
>> >> >
>> >> > Robin
>> >> >
>> >> > 5.0 out of 5 stars The classic description of IPS
>> >> > Reviewed in the United Kingdom on 28 April 2021
>> >> > Verified Purchase
>> >> > IPS was originally developed as a real-world application oriented version of FORTH. The additional features make it more useful for various classes of problems. If you want to know how how to build real-time systems in severely resource limited environments, then this book is for you. [...]
>>
>> A similar sentiment (Forth wasn't up to the task) was expressed in the original
>> manual. Has anyone looked at IPS in detail to see what problems it solved that
>> Forth couldn't?
>
> This is simplified Forth in german. The only original concept is chains multitasking. Was cool on such hardware in late seventies.
>

Perhaps there were legal considerations for differentiating it from Forth.
The BYTE article ends saying 'In the years since the first FORTH paper,
FORTH has become a registered trademark'. Also Forth Inc's multitasker
may have been seen as proprietary. By 1984 however (F83) the cat was out
of the bag.

There was mention of an 8080 IPS. I would have checked that out but so far
no source other than the assembler.

Re: IPS - differences from Forth?

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Subject: Re: IPS - differences from Forth?
From: jpita...@gmail.com (Jurgen Pitaske)
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 by: Jurgen Pitaske - Wed, 17 Nov 2021 09:31 UTC

On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 02:48:10 UTC, dxforth wrote:
> On 17/11/2021 12:48, Nickolay Kolchin wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 2:36:12 AM UTC+3, dxforth wrote:
> >> On 17/11/2021 01:55, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07SGWCSKT/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i11
> >> >> > ...
> >> >> > a note from there:
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Robin
> >> >> >
> >> >> > 5.0 out of 5 stars The classic description of IPS
> >> >> > Reviewed in the United Kingdom on 28 April 2021
> >> >> > Verified Purchase
> >> >> > IPS was originally developed as a real-world application oriented version of FORTH. The additional features make it more useful for various classes of problems. If you want to know how how to build real-time systems in severely resource limited environments, then this book is for you. [...]
> >>
> >> A similar sentiment (Forth wasn't up to the task) was expressed in the original
> >> manual. Has anyone looked at IPS in detail to see what problems it solved that
> >> Forth couldn't?
> >
> > This is simplified Forth in german. The only original concept is chains multitasking. Was cool on such hardware in late seventies.
> >
> Perhaps there were legal considerations for differentiating it from Forth..
> The BYTE article ends saying 'In the years since the first FORTH paper,
> FORTH has become a registered trademark'. Also Forth Inc's multitasker
> may have been seen as proprietary. By 1984 however (F83) the cat was out
> of the bag.
>
> There was mention of an 8080 IPS. I would have checked that out but so far
> no source other than the assembler.

From an email from Dr. Karl Meinzer,
when I tried to find out how of if to proceed with the IPS book project,
I got the following background from Dr. Karl Meinzer,
translated part from German of the email:

Dear Mr. Pintaske,

James Miller forwarded your letter on your Forth project and your inquiry regarding IPS.

First a little background:
For the AMSAT satellites, we needed a suitable software in the mid-1970s
that would run on the COSMAC from the RCA company.
Dr. Sommer from RCA had drawn my attention to Forth,
and in principle it seemed like a good basis for our project.
But since we couldn't get Forth on affordable terms,
I recreated such a system from scratch
and at the same time tailored it to our needs.
(e.g. interaction via screen and not teletype,
and multitasking as an integral component.)
..
For our satellite application, the primary focus was
on designing the system in such a way
that the susceptibility to programming errors is minimal.
We therefore had the system tested by a large number of users
at the University of Marburg,
under the condition that they give us feedback
on all programming errors they encountered.
The evaluation then resulted in a revision,
which also resulted in most of the deviations from Forth.
The system has been stable and absolutely error-free since about 1979,
and it was used in all P3 satellites
in the on-board computer to operate the satellites.
It must have been a major contributor to the success of these missions.

There is more in this email, but I cut out the background I was given.

Re: IPS - differences from Forth?

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Subject: Re: IPS - differences from Forth?
From: jpita...@gmail.com (Jurgen Pitaske)
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 by: Jurgen Pitaske - Wed, 17 Nov 2021 09:46 UTC

On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 01:48:23 UTC, Nickolay Kolchin wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 2:36:12 AM UTC+3, dxforth wrote:
> > On 17/11/2021 01:55, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07SGWCSKT/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i11
> > >> > ...
> > >> > a note from there:
> > >> >
> > >> > Robin
> > >> >
> > >> > 5.0 out of 5 stars The classic description of IPS
> > >> > Reviewed in the United Kingdom on 28 April 2021
> > >> > Verified Purchase
> > >> > IPS was originally developed as a real-world application oriented version of FORTH. The additional features make it more useful for various classes of problems. If you want to know how how to build real-time systems in severely resource limited environments, then this book is for you. [...]
> >
> > A similar sentiment (Forth wasn't up to the task) was expressed in the original
> > manual. Has anyone looked at IPS in detail to see what problems it solved that
> > Forth couldn't?

> This is simplified Forth in german. The only original concept is chains multitasking. Was cool on such hardware in late seventies.

It seems you know Forth and IPS well.
Can you please share your knowledge and expand on the "simplified".

Re: IPS - differences from Forth?

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Subject: Re: IPS - differences from Forth?
From: nbkolc...@gmail.com (Nickolay Kolchin)
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 by: Nickolay Kolchin - Wed, 17 Nov 2021 11:20 UTC

On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 12:46:40 PM UTC+3, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, 17 November 2021 at 01:48:23 UTC, Nickolay Kolchin wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 2:36:12 AM UTC+3, dxforth wrote:
> > > On 17/11/2021 01:55, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07SGWCSKT/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i11
> > > >> > ...
> > > >> > a note from there:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Robin
> > > >> >
> > > >> > 5.0 out of 5 stars The classic description of IPS
> > > >> > Reviewed in the United Kingdom on 28 April 2021
> > > >> > Verified Purchase
> > > >> > IPS was originally developed as a real-world application oriented version of FORTH. The additional features make it more useful for various classes of problems. If you want to know how how to build real-time systems in severely resource limited environments, then this book is for you. [....]
> > >
> > > A similar sentiment (Forth wasn't up to the task) was expressed in the original
> > > manual. Has anyone looked at IPS in detail to see what problems it solved that
> > > Forth couldn't?
>
>
> > This is simplified Forth in german. The only original concept is chains multitasking. Was cool on such hardware in late seventies.
> It seems you know Forth and IPS well.
> Can you please share your knowledge and expand on the "simplified".

I've heard about IPS before, but never used it. The word "simplified" comes from
comparison with Forth systems from same era. For example -- Kitt Peak Forth..
Vocabulary is much smaller in IPS. No "doubles" or "floating point".

Also, AFAIK (but it is better to ask creators), original version doesn't have
DOES> family equivalents. MACHT> appeared at some later time.

Without non-traditional word naming, IPS is Forth.

Re: IPS - differences from Forth?

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Subject: Re: IPS - differences from Forth?
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 by: Rafael Deliano - Thu, 18 Nov 2021 18:44 UTC

> There was mention of an 8080 IPS. I would have checked that out but so far
> no source other than the assembler.

Meinzers "IPS High Level Programming of Small Systems" 1978
was reissued as a slick book ( 2. edition ) by James Miller
AMSAT-UK in 1997 ( thats what i have ), third edition 2006 is
the pdf of the 2. edition . If Pintaskes 4. edition is expanded
i do not know.

The concept goes back to the late 70ies: it is not the usual
crosscompiler from from PDP11 to RCA1802. But the microprocessor
as a homecomputer. 16 line by 64 character TV-screen, keyboard,
two casette recorders, 16kByte RAM and a boot-ROM.
Meinzer would use it for development on the 1802 satellite
application. So there was a 20msec interrupt for clock,
3 timers and the round robin multitasker.
The radio amateurs using the satellite would have a similar
IPS-homecomputer, but with 8080/Z80 6800 6502 CPUs.
Obvious problem: as soon as cheap commercial homecomputers were
available the system was less attractive and not compatible.
Therefore i doubt there is a real 8080 implementation, but
R. Dunbar in the UK can be probably be contacted via
James Miller.

IPS did not start with fig-forth listings, so there are
differences in implementation. Like hashing for names.
Apart from a handfull of the german implementors at AMSAT-DL
there were later people of AMSAT-UK involved.
After the 1802 satellites in the 1980ies, IPS was
ported to the RTX2000:
https://amsat-dl.org/amsat-oscar-21-radio-sputnik-14/
The AMSAT P5A Mars mission 2012 still would have used IPS,
by then Meinzner was still around.
That any future satellites will use IPS is not so clear.
Switching to Forth has never been contemplated by AMSAT-DL.

MfG JRD

Re: IPS - differences from Forth?

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Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2021 11:17:57 -0800 (PST)
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Subject: Re: IPS - differences from Forth?
From: jpita...@gmail.com (Jurgen Pitaske)
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 by: Jurgen Pitaske - Thu, 18 Nov 2021 19:17 UTC

On Thursday, 18 November 2021 at 18:44:03 UTC, Rafael Deliano wrote:
> > There was mention of an 8080 IPS. I would have checked that out but so far
> > no source other than the assembler.
> Meinzers "IPS High Level Programming of Small Systems" 1978
> was reissued as a slick book ( 2. edition ) by James Miller
> AMSAT-UK in 1997 ( thats what i have ), third edition 2006 is
> the pdf of the 2. edition . If Pintaskes 4. edition is expanded
> i do not know.
>
> The concept goes back to the late 70ies: it is not the usual
> crosscompiler from from PDP11 to RCA1802. But the microprocessor
> as a homecomputer. 16 line by 64 character TV-screen, keyboard,
> two casette recorders, 16kByte RAM and a boot-ROM.
> Meinzer would use it for development on the 1802 satellite
> application. So there was a 20msec interrupt for clock,
> 3 timers and the round robin multitasker.
> The radio amateurs using the satellite would have a similar
> IPS-homecomputer, but with 8080/Z80 6800 6502 CPUs.
> Obvious problem: as soon as cheap commercial homecomputers were
> available the system was less attractive and not compatible.
> Therefore i doubt there is a real 8080 implementation, but
> R. Dunbar in the UK can be probably be contacted via
> James Miller.
>
> IPS did not start with fig-forth listings, so there are
> differences in implementation. Like hashing for names.
> Apart from a handfull of the german implementors at AMSAT-DL
> there were later people of AMSAT-UK involved.
> After the 1802 satellites in the 1980ies, IPS was
> ported to the RTX2000:
> https://amsat-dl.org/amsat-oscar-21-radio-sputnik-14/
> The AMSAT P5A Mars mission 2012 still would have used IPS,
> by then Meinzner was still around.
> That any future satellites will use IPS is not so clear.
> Switching to Forth has never been contemplated by AMSAT-DL.
>
> MfG JRD

Rafael,
the text signed off By Dr. Meinzer for publication on amazon is probably the same,
as he signed it off, and was quite happy that there mighr be a wider audience.
It is just unfortunate,
that there is no group using it now,
with the " satellite " as kit of sensors in your living room ...

Re: IPS - differences from Forth?

<32047f82-93d4-451e-afc0-e07808ebbb56n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: IPS - differences from Forth?
From: jpita...@gmail.com (Jurgen Pitaske)
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 by: Jurgen Pitaske - Thu, 18 Nov 2021 19:22 UTC

On Thursday, 18 November 2021 at 19:17:58 UTC, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> On Thursday, 18 November 2021 at 18:44:03 UTC, Rafael Deliano wrote:
> > > There was mention of an 8080 IPS. I would have checked that out but so far
> > > no source other than the assembler.
> > Meinzers "IPS High Level Programming of Small Systems" 1978
> > was reissued as a slick book ( 2. edition ) by James Miller
> > AMSAT-UK in 1997 ( thats what i have ), third edition 2006 is
> > the pdf of the 2. edition . If Pintaskes 4. edition is expanded
> > i do not know.
> >
> > The concept goes back to the late 70ies: it is not the usual
> > crosscompiler from from PDP11 to RCA1802. But the microprocessor
> > as a homecomputer. 16 line by 64 character TV-screen, keyboard,
> > two casette recorders, 16kByte RAM and a boot-ROM.
> > Meinzer would use it for development on the 1802 satellite
> > application. So there was a 20msec interrupt for clock,
> > 3 timers and the round robin multitasker.
> > The radio amateurs using the satellite would have a similar
> > IPS-homecomputer, but with 8080/Z80 6800 6502 CPUs.
> > Obvious problem: as soon as cheap commercial homecomputers were
> > available the system was less attractive and not compatible.
> > Therefore i doubt there is a real 8080 implementation, but
> > R. Dunbar in the UK can be probably be contacted via
> > James Miller.
> >
> > IPS did not start with fig-forth listings, so there are
> > differences in implementation. Like hashing for names.
> > Apart from a handfull of the german implementors at AMSAT-DL
> > there were later people of AMSAT-UK involved.
> > After the 1802 satellites in the 1980ies, IPS was
> > ported to the RTX2000:
> > https://amsat-dl.org/amsat-oscar-21-radio-sputnik-14/
> > The AMSAT P5A Mars mission 2012 still would have used IPS,
> > by then Meinzner was still around.
> > That any future satellites will use IPS is not so clear.
> > Switching to Forth has never been contemplated by AMSAT-DL.
> >
> > MfG JRD
> Rafael,
> the text signed off By Dr. Meinzer for publication on amazon is probably the same,
> as he signed it off, and was quite happy that there mighr be a wider audience.
> It is just unfortunate,
> that there is no group using it now,
> with the " satellite " as kit of sensors in your living room ...

It is nice to see,
that my post regaring Dr. Karl Meinzer and his Honours
https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.forth/c/YGWCb3Z1u14
is here taking further looking at the Forth aspects.

Re: IPS - differences from Forth?

<sn6q91$7so$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=15290&group=comp.lang.forth#15290

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From: dxfo...@gmail.com (dxforth)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: IPS - differences from Forth?
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2021 11:14:26 +1100
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 by: dxforth - Fri, 19 Nov 2021 00:14 UTC

On 19/11/2021 05:44, Rafael Deliano wrote:
> ...
> Meinzer would use it for development on the 1802 satellite
> application. So there was a 20msec interrupt for clock,
> 3 timers and the round robin multitasker.
> The radio amateurs using the satellite would have a similar
> IPS-homecomputer, but with 8080/Z80 6800 6502 CPUs.
> Obvious problem: as soon as cheap commercial homecomputers were
> available the system was less attractive and not compatible.
> Therefore i doubt there is a real 8080 implementation, but
> R. Dunbar in the UK can be probably be contacted via
> James Miller.

In the 'Acknowledgements' section of the book there's mention
of 6502 and 8080 ports having been built albeit by others.
That would explain the existence of assembler source for them.
ISTR reading (online?) them being used as 'ground stations'.

>
> IPS did not start with fig-forth listings, so there are
> differences in implementation. Like hashing for names.

For sure. Hence the interest.

Re: IPS - differences from Forth?

<sna63d$5gp$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=15294&group=comp.lang.forth#15294

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From: rafael_d...@arcor.de (Rafael Deliano)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: IPS - differences from Forth?
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2021 07:54:37 +0100
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 by: Rafael Deliano - Sat, 20 Nov 2021 06:54 UTC

> It is just unfortunate, that there is no group using it now,

Times are changing for AMSAT too. Average age is up,
membership down. Big satellites for radio amateurs
fizzled out. Every vaguely interested university department
can build and launch a small cubesat for the bragging rights.

If one looks at the RUDAK circuit:
the 65SC02 had lots of SRAM and 2kByte "FLPROM", the RTX2000
lots of RAM and a RAM-disk.
AMSAT-DL didn't use fancy rad-hard ICs. The idea was to have
a minimal boot-ROM that didn't degrade in space. Therefore PROM,
not EPROM. Do background CRC on all RAM to detect flipped bits
and reboot via radio if necessary.

Conventional embedded is the other way around: big Flash/EPROM,
not enough RAM. Stuff in IPS like hashing names makes more sense
with RAM.
Meinzer was probably right that commercial software didn't fit
his requirements. But these were so special that IPS is not ideal
for normal applications.

As for inventing a "space language": he was probably aware
that NASA had its own HAL/S develloped in the 70ies for the
Space Shuttle. It was used on some other projects in the 80ies,
but then mostly replaced by ADA.

MfG JRD

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