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devel / comp.lang.forth / Re: Uni-kernels

SubjectAuthor
* Uni-kernelsBrian Fox
+- Re: Uni-kernelsNickolay Kolchin
+* Re: Uni-kernelsAnton Ertl
|`- Re: Uni-kernelsRobert Roland
+- Re: Uni-kernelsS Jack
+- Re: Uni-kernelsRick C
+* Re: Uni-kernelsAndy Valencia
|`- Re: Uni-kernelsRick C
`- Re: Uni-kernelsWayne morellini

1
Uni-kernels

<48249cf7-5b57-444f-af44-d853c49b2f1fn@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Uni-kernels
From: brian....@brianfox.ca (Brian Fox)
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 by: Brian Fox - Fri, 3 Dec 2021 14:02 UTC

On hacker news I found this post.

https://changelog.com/posts/the-big-idea-around-unikernels

It makes me wonder if this is an opportunity for a Forth based kernel.
It's way above my pay grade to create one but it might interest someone here.

Re: Uni-kernels

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Subject: Re: Uni-kernels
From: nbkolc...@gmail.com (Nickolay Kolchin)
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 by: Nickolay Kolchin - Fri, 3 Dec 2021 16:00 UTC

On Friday, December 3, 2021 at 5:02:36 PM UTC+3, Brian Fox wrote:
> On hacker news I found this post.
>
> https://changelog.com/posts/the-big-idea-around-unikernels
>
> It makes me wonder if this is an opportunity for a Forth based kernel.
> It's way above my pay grade to create one but it might interest someone here.

You can start with implementing TCP stack in Forth...

Re: Uni-kernels

<2021Dec3.160544@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>

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From: ant...@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Uni-kernels
Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2021 15:05:44 GMT
Organization: Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
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 by: Anton Ertl - Fri, 3 Dec 2021 15:05 UTC

Brian Fox <brian.fox@brianfox.ca> writes:
>On hacker news I found this post.
>
>https://changelog.com/posts/the-big-idea-around-unikernels
>
>It makes me wonder if this is an opportunity for a Forth based kernel.

Unikernels certainly are an opportunity for Forth, and I think I wrote
a posting here some years ago when I heard about the concept IIRC at a
Chaos Communications Congress, but I cannot find it (so I have
probebly not posted, only talked about it).

The background is that people run VMs specialized for a specific
application on top of a hypervisor, because that offers better
isolation than running the application as a process on an OS like
Linux; the usual approach is to run an OS (e.g., Linux) inside the VM
and the application on top of the OS.

But the OS offers many services and security features (e.g., a system
call interface) that are unnecessary for an isolated application (and
slow it down). So the idea of unikernels (aka library OSs) is to
essentially run the application on the raw VM, using (faster) library
calls rather than system calls for the remaining services that the
application would need of the OS.

Classical native Forth would fit in quite well in this setting; it is
basically a library OS. Native Forths went out of fashion on larger
machines because the I/O devices became ever more complex and less
documented (instead, device manufacturers provided Windows and later
Linux drivers), and there are many of them. But the interface from a
VM to its hypervisor is documented and relatively stable, making it a
better target for a native Forth system.

Of course, to make it a real opportunity you would need an application
that requires this amount of isolation, and you would need to
implement that application in Forth, and you would need a Forth system
that interfaces to the hypervisor.

Before you get too enthusiastic, it seems to me that the mainstream
action is elsewhere, not unikernels: While VMs running on Hypervisors
have been popular maybe 15 years ago, Linux and other OSs have
addressed the need for more isolation by providing additional
isolation mechanisms in the form of containers (a popular variant of
that is Docker); containers run on top of OSs and use system calls,
but only see as much of the rest of the system as specified in the
configuration (typically a bit of the file system and some network
interfaces); they typically contain the whole user space of an OS.

Wrt Forth, a Forth system can be run in a container just about as
easily as in a VM; starting with a hosted Forth system, it's probably
less work to have a Forth system that runs on the raw container (and
very little work to have a Forth system that runs with the usual
user-space environment on the container; there are a number of those,
see <https://github.com/uho/docker-forth>).

The opportunity for Forth here is that the container provides security
that Forth programmers (many of whom are not particularly clueful
about security) may fail to provide, so making Forth viable for
Internet-facing applications. It still needs someone competent to
configure the container.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2021: https://euro.theforth.net/2021

Re: Uni-kernels

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Subject: Re: Uni-kernels
From: sdwjac...@gmail.com (S Jack)
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 by: S Jack - Fri, 3 Dec 2021 16:09 UTC

On Friday, December 3, 2021 at 8:02:36 AM UTC-6, Brian Fox wrote:
> On hacker news I found this post.
>
> https://changelog.com/posts/the-big-idea-around-unikernels
>
> It makes me wonder if this is an opportunity for a Forth based kernel.
> It's way above my pay grade to create one but it might interest someone here.

Looked at some IT terms; found one that stood out:

<quote>
Return Oriented Programming (or ROP) is the idea of chaining together
small snippets of assembly with stack control to cause the program to
do more complex things.

Return Oriented Programming - CTF 101https://ctf101.org
binary-exploitation return-oriented-...
</quote>

(Probably means something different to an IT or cybersecurity person
than how I read it.)
--
me

Re: Uni-kernels

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Subject: Re: Uni-kernels
From: rob.rol...@gmail.com (Robert Roland)
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 by: Robert Roland - Sat, 4 Dec 2021 23:27 UTC

On Friday, December 3, 2021 at 8:00:28 AM UTC-8, Anton Ertl wrote:
> Classical native Forth would fit in quite well in this setting; it is
> basically a library OS. Native Forths went out of fashion on larger
> machines because the I/O devices became ever more complex and less
> documented (instead, device manufacturers provided Windows and later
> Linux drivers), and there are many of them. But the interface from a
> VM to its hypervisor is documented and relatively stable, making it a
> better target for a native Forth system.

Yep, this is the catch. The virtio "hardware" exposed by the hypervisors are relatively easy to write drivers for, and there are plenty of examples out there.

I've been wanting to do some bare-metal work on the Raspberry Pi, but needing to implement a USB stack to get keyboard input is just too much of an undertaking. Makes me miss the old PS/2 interface.

Re: Uni-kernels

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Subject: Re: Uni-kernels
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Sun, 5 Dec 2021 06:30 UTC

On Friday, December 3, 2021 at 9:02:36 AM UTC-5, Brian Fox wrote:
> On hacker news I found this post.
>
> https://changelog.com/posts/the-big-idea-around-unikernels
>
> It makes me wonder if this is an opportunity for a Forth based kernel.
> It's way above my pay grade to create one but it might interest someone here.

This must be above my pay grade too as I don't have any idea what unikernals is even after reading the first half of the article. That's why I didn't read the second half. Clearly the audience for this piece (reads like an advertisement more than anything) are people who already know about unikernals.

Oh, well.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Uni-kernels

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From: van...@vsta.org (Andy Valencia)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Uni-kernels
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 by: Andy Valencia - Mon, 6 Dec 2021 14:56 UTC

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> writes:
> This must be above my pay grade too as I don't have any idea what
> unikernals is even after reading the first half of the article.

It _seems_ to be the idea that a single app can be linked against a library
which provides a mapping from traditional system services, down onto the
virtual service API's which a VPS instance provides (i.e., storage,
networking, ...). The API's on a Virtual Private Server are standardized,
and not half bad, so this is not an inherently incoherent idea.

You thus shuffle off the monstrous (and rapidly growing) mountain of baggage
of a general purpose OS. And run your app bound right up against the VPS
API's. I can imagine a broad range of web services would be very easy to
adapt to such a model.

Andy Valencia
Home page: https://www.vsta.org/andy/
To contact me: https://www.vsta.org/contact/andy.html

Re: Uni-kernels

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Subject: Re: Uni-kernels
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Mon, 6 Dec 2021 17:09 UTC

On Monday, December 6, 2021 at 10:00:50 AM UTC-5, Andy Valencia wrote:
> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
> > This must be above my pay grade too as I don't have any idea what
> > unikernals is even after reading the first half of the article.
> It _seems_ to be the idea that a single app can be linked against a library
> which provides a mapping from traditional system services, down onto the
> virtual service API's which a VPS instance provides (i.e., storage,
> networking, ...). The API's on a Virtual Private Server are standardized,
> and not half bad, so this is not an inherently incoherent idea.
>
> You thus shuffle off the monstrous (and rapidly growing) mountain of baggage
> of a general purpose OS. And run your app bound right up against the VPS
> API's. I can imagine a broad range of web services would be very easy to
> adapt to such a model.

Sounds like Windows 95. I recall that was a bit inside out where the application code called the OS when it felt like giving up the CPU. So the OS was a collection of subroutines.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Uni-kernels

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Subject: Re: Uni-kernels
From: waynemor...@gmail.com (Wayne morellini)
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 by: Wayne morellini - Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:01 UTC

On Saturday, December 4, 2021 at 12:02:36 AM UTC+10, Brian Fox wrote:
> On hacker news I found this post.
>
> https://changelog.com/posts/the-big-idea-around-unikernels
>
> It makes me wonder if this is an opportunity for a Forth based kernel.
> It's way above my pay grade to create one but it might interest someone here.

Sounds a bit like doing programs based on and different os as single packages. I was looking at doing it years ago to port code.

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server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor