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devel / comp.lang.python / Re: Proliferation of Python packaging formats

Re: Proliferation of Python packaging formats

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From: mat...@wichmann.us (Mats Wichmann)
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Subject: Re: Proliferation of Python packaging formats
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 13:57:58 -0700
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by: Mats Wichmann - Wed, 17 Nov 2021 20:57 UTC

On 11/17/21 07:44, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 18, 2021 at 12:20 AM Skip Montanaro
> <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Is the proliferation of packaging formats in Python as nutzo as this author
>> believes?
>>
>> https://drewdevault.com/2021/11/16/Python-stop-screwing-distros-over.html
>>
>> Asking because I've never been in the business of releasing "retail" Python
>> applications or packages.
>>
>
> It's a problem if you feel the need to release in every single
> possible way. The XKCD in that example is a showcase of what happens
> when you attempt to install in every possible way, which is usually a
> consequence of everyone releasing in just one way.
>
> He's blaming the PSF, but that's not really fair. The PSF has never
> said "hey everyone, make sure you package for conda as well as posting
> on PyPI". Part of the proliferation comes because there are multiple
> completely independent distributions, and in the XKCD shown there, he
> has installed Python at least five times from completely different
> sources (the OS-provided one, two from Homebrew, one from Anaconda,
> and one from python.org), and maybe installed pip into one of those as
> well. Duh, of course that's going to cause problems.

There are people working on the problems, but the author doesn't seem to
like the progress being made. Here's one jumping point for those
interested who haven't otherwise followed this stuff:

https://discuss.python.org/t/graceful-cooperation-between-external-and-python-package-managers-pep-668/10302

Some of the problems in Python ecosystem, which categorically does *not*
just consist of machines running a Linux distro, are in fact caused by
the choices the Linux distros make in packaging. The model of "get
everything you need from your distro's packages" doesn't come close to
cutting it these days, so there has to be coexistence. Anecdotally, I
have a module I use in a couple of projects and I forgot that on my main
machine I actually had that supplied by a Fedora package (silly me), and
surprise - it's been dropped in F35.

Yes, it's true that the PyPA does not set itself up to be the final
picker of winners, so this comment isn't just off the wall:

"P.S. PEP-517 and 518 are a start, but are very disappointing in how
little they address distro problems. These PEPs are designed to tolerate
the proliferation of build systems, which is exactly what needs to stop.
Python ought to stop trying to avoid hurting anyone’s feelings and pick
one."

That doesn't seem likely to happen, and in fact there's probably
strength in having multiple implementations of a PEP (in other worlds,
like W3C, multiple implementations are mandatory before a standard can
be accepted).

Re: Proliferation of Python packaging formats

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From: no.em...@nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
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Subject: Re: Proliferation of Python packaging formats
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:38:14 -0800
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by: Paul Rubin - Wed, 17 Nov 2021 23:38 UTC

Subject	Author
Re: Proliferation of Python packaging formats	Mats Wichmann
Re: Proliferation of Python packaging formats	Paul Rubin