After another portion of empty hopes on 'standard Forth' I have read first page of gforth manual. I've found goals statement very non-professional and not conforming base guidelines of IT projects management.
====================================1 Goals of Gforth
The goal of the Gforth Project is to develop a standard model for Standard Forth. This can be split into several subgoals:

Gforth should conform to the Forth Standard.
It should be a model, i.e. it should define all the implementation-dependent things.
It should become standard, i.e. widely accepted and used. This goal is the most difficult one.
====================================
Really? The goal is to make project's authors... authors of another document? The goal is to distribute product? When I'm looking on product, I want to know, why I may need it. If author answers 'well, this product is designed for making money for me and getting respect', I will think it is a kind of stupidity. I want to know WHAT IS IT first. A car's goal is to bring driver and passengers from point A to point B (with velocity, safety, price, fuel per km, comfort level etc). This is what I want to see. If car builder says 'well, I want to make this thing with wheels standard and widely accepted' I will tell him to call someone better informed about company's goals.

On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 5:31:08 PM UTC-5, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> After another portion of empty hopes on 'standard Forth' I have read first page of gforth manual. I've found goals statement very non-professional and not conforming base guidelines of IT projects management.
> =====================================
> 1 Goals of Gforth
> The goal of the Gforth Project is to develop a standard model for Standard Forth. This can be split into several subgoals:
>
> Gforth should conform to the Forth Standard.
> It should be a model, i.e. it should define all the implementation-dependent things.
> It should become standard, i.e. widely accepted and used. This goal is the most difficult one.
> =====================================
>
> Really? The goal is to make project's authors... authors of another document? The goal is to distribute product? When I'm looking on product, I want to know, why I may need it. If author answers 'well, this product is designed for making money for me and getting respect', I will think it is a kind of stupidity. I want to know WHAT IS IT first. A car's goal is to bring driver and passengers from point A to point B (with velocity, safety, price, fuel per km, comfort level etc). This is what I want to see. If car builder says 'well, I want to make this thing with wheels standard and widely accepted' I will tell him to call someone better informed about company's goals..

I don't understand what you are whining about. If you don't like it, why are you looking at using it? It sounds to me like a bad match from the beginning. You are a big proponent of everyone going their own way with Forth. So why would you be interested in using a Forth that has at its heart the idea of Forth standards?

I would think this intro would be exactly what you are looking for in an intro and it would be enough to make you never consider using gforth. What do I misunderstand?

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On 17/02/2022 13:34, Rick C wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 5:31:08 PM UTC-5, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
>> After another portion of empty hopes on 'standard Forth' I have read first page of gforth manual. I've found goals statement very non-professional and not conforming base guidelines of IT projects management.
>> =====================================
>> 1 Goals of Gforth
>> The goal of the Gforth Project is to develop a standard model for Standard Forth. This can be split into several subgoals:
>>
>> Gforth should conform to the Forth Standard.
>> It should be a model, i.e. it should define all the implementation-dependent things.
>> It should become standard, i.e. widely accepted and used. This goal is the most difficult one.
>> =====================================
>>
>> Really? The goal is to make project's authors... authors of another document? The goal is to distribute product? When I'm looking on product, I want to know, why I may need it. If author answers 'well, this product is designed for making money for me and getting respect', I will think it is a kind of stupidity. I want to know WHAT IS IT first. A car's goal is to bring driver and passengers from point A to point B (with velocity, safety, price, fuel per km, comfort level etc). This is what I want to see. If car builder says 'well, I want to make this thing with wheels standard and widely accepted' I will tell him to call someone better informed about company's goals.
>
> I don't understand what you are whining about. If you don't like it, why are you looking at using it? It sounds to me like a bad match from the beginning. You are a big proponent of everyone going their own way with Forth. So why would you be interested in using a Forth that has at its heart the idea of Forth standards?
>
> I would think this intro would be exactly what you are looking for in an intro and it would be enough to make you never consider using gforth. What do I misunderstand?
>

And a potential mistake on the part of prospective users given Gforth has been used
professionally (e.g. AMRForth). Sometimes one has to skip over the words and look
at the substance.

On Thursday, 17 February 2022 at 03:43:58 UTC, dxforth wrote:
> On 17/02/2022 13:34, Rick C wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 5:31:08 PM UTC-5, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> >> After another portion of empty hopes on 'standard Forth' I have read first page of gforth manual. I've found goals statement very non-professional and not conforming base guidelines of IT projects management.
> >> =====================================
> >> 1 Goals of Gforth
> >> The goal of the Gforth Project is to develop a standard model for Standard Forth. This can be split into several subgoals:
> >>
> >> Gforth should conform to the Forth Standard.
> >> It should be a model, i.e. it should define all the implementation-dependent things.
> >> It should become standard, i.e. widely accepted and used. This goal is the most difficult one.
> >> =====================================
> >>
> >> Really? The goal is to make project's authors... authors of another document? The goal is to distribute product? When I'm looking on product, I want to know, why I may need it. If author answers 'well, this product is designed for making money for me and getting respect', I will think it is a kind of stupidity. I want to know WHAT IS IT first. A car's goal is to bring driver and passengers from point A to point B (with velocity, safety, price, fuel per km, comfort level etc). This is what I want to see. If car builder says 'well, I want to make this thing with wheels standard and widely accepted' I will tell him to call someone better informed about company's goals.
> >
> > I don't understand what you are whining about. If you don't like it, why are you looking at using it? It sounds to me like a bad match from the beginning. You are a big proponent of everyone going their own way with Forth.. So why would you be interested in using a Forth that has at its heart the idea of Forth standards?
> >
> > I would think this intro would be exactly what you are looking for in an intro and it would be enough to make you never consider using gforth. What do I misunderstand?
> >
> And a potential mistake on the part of prospective users given Gforth has been used
> professionally (e.g. AMRForth). Sometimes one has to skip over the words and look
> at the substance.

Ilya, it is unclear from your post what you want to achieve or if there is a target.

GForth has been there for 25ish years. Might be even more.
A lot of work - all "donated time" - by a lot of people went into it to make it happen.
A lot of documentation has been created by many.
Which Forth is comparable?
So there is a lot of history.
You would have to dump it all to adapt it to what you want - but this target you have not mentioned at all.

Critizising the documentation that has grown over these many years is a bit "unusual".
It sounds as if you have never really looked at GForth over the last many years really and never used it.
As it seems you have not used it and will not used it - what's the point then?

SP Forth instead?
Or try VFX?
Or Swiftforth?
And compare the documentation there with GForth?

> And a potential mistake on the part of prospective users given Gforth has been used
> professionally (e.g. AMRForth). Sometimes one has to skip over the words and look
> at the substance.

So the cookie recipe is professional, just because someone else baked a similar cookie and ate it?

On Thursday, 17 February 2022 at 07:38:56 UTC, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> On Thursday, 17 February 2022 at 03:43:58 UTC, dxforth wrote:
> > On 17/02/2022 13:34, Rick C wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 5:31:08 PM UTC-5, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> > >> After another portion of empty hopes on 'standard Forth' I have read first page of gforth manual. I've found goals statement very non-professional and not conforming base guidelines of IT projects management.
> > >> =====================================
> > >> 1 Goals of Gforth
> > >> The goal of the Gforth Project is to develop a standard model for Standard Forth. This can be split into several subgoals:
> > >>
> > >> Gforth should conform to the Forth Standard.
> > >> It should be a model, i.e. it should define all the implementation-dependent things.
> > >> It should become standard, i.e. widely accepted and used. This goal is the most difficult one.
> > >> =====================================
> > >>
> > >> Really? The goal is to make project's authors... authors of another document? The goal is to distribute product? When I'm looking on product, I want to know, why I may need it. If author answers 'well, this product is designed for making money for me and getting respect', I will think it is a kind of stupidity. I want to know WHAT IS IT first. A car's goal is to bring driver and passengers from point A to point B (with velocity, safety, price, fuel per km, comfort level etc). This is what I want to see. If car builder says 'well, I want to make this thing with wheels standard and widely accepted' I will tell him to call someone better informed about company's goals.
> > >
> > > I don't understand what you are whining about. If you don't like it, why are you looking at using it? It sounds to me like a bad match from the beginning. You are a big proponent of everyone going their own way with Forth. So why would you be interested in using a Forth that has at its heart the idea of Forth standards?
> > >
> > > I would think this intro would be exactly what you are looking for in an intro and it would be enough to make you never consider using gforth. What do I misunderstand?
> > >
> > And a potential mistake on the part of prospective users given Gforth has been used
> > professionally (e.g. AMRForth). Sometimes one has to skip over the words and look
> > at the substance.
> Ilya, it is unclear from your post what you want to achieve or if there is a target.
>
> GForth has been there for 25ish years. Might be even more.
> A lot of work - all "donated time" - by a lot of people went into it to make it happen.
> A lot of documentation has been created by many.
> Which Forth is comparable?
> So there is a lot of history.
> You would have to dump it all to adapt it to what you want - but this target you have not mentioned at all.
>
> Critizising the documentation that has grown over these many years is a bit "unusual".
> It sounds as if you have never really looked at GForth over the last many years really and never used it.
> As it seems you have not used it and will not used it - what's the point then?
>
> SP Forth instead?
> Or try VFX?
> Or Swiftforth?
> And compare the documentation there with GForth?

Just had a quick google about your activities and found one example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4p-Rtqb5HM

Well, there was a project 25 years ago and it got a Forth onto a CPLD.
Now it is back with eForth on FPGA
https://github.com/Steve-Teal/eforth-misc16
GForth was involved in the first implementation and some of the people working on GForth ...

and we made it into the original article that started me on this fun project
http://homepage.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/arch/risc/

> > GForth has been there for 25ish years. Might be even more.

Enough time to grow from students to professionals.

> > Critizising the documentation that has grown over these many years is a bit "unusual".
> > It sounds as if you have never really looked at GForth over the last many years really and never used it.
> > As it seems you have not used it and will not used it - what's the point then?

Of course no. I can see basic guidelines are not taken into account, so this activity is just a hobby.
> > SP Forth instead?
> > Or try VFX?
> > Or Swiftforth?
> > And compare the documentation there with GForth?

Forth is an algorithm like an array manipulation or equation solving. If it is so simple, there is a way to build
Forth when required and adopt it as needed.

> Just had a quick google about your activities and found one example
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4p-Rtqb5HM

Seriously? Looking on activity by google? :D

https://www.electronpribor.ru/catalog/6/mep-6is.htm
https://www.electronpribor.ru/catalog/6/mep-7is.htm

Just a brief snippet of devices (about 10k EUR each) which can be found in open access.
Certified and driven by my Forth CPUs. I cannot remember a complete list where my cores
are used.

> Well, there was a project 25 years ago and it got a Forth onto a CPLD.
> Now it is back with eForth on FPGA
> https://github.com/Steve-Teal/eforth-misc16
> GForth was involved in the first implementation and some of the people working on GForth ...

.... and some countries bought our devices already.
> and we made it into the original article that started me on this fun project
> http://homepage.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/arch/risc/

So I need to wait until you make it standard? Or join your project even all of you seems to
feel problems clearly stated project goals and carry it properly? Do you think I need more than
1 hour to implement your processor in Verilog and run it on FPGA?

On Thursday, 17 February 2022 at 08:20:48 UTC, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> > > GForth has been there for 25ish years. Might be even more.
> Enough time to grow from students to professionals.
> > > Critizising the documentation that has grown over these many years is a bit "unusual".
> > > It sounds as if you have never really looked at GForth over the last many years really and never used it.
> > > As it seems you have not used it and will not used it - what's the point then?
> Of course no. I can see basic guidelines are not taken into account, so this activity is just a hobby.
> > > SP Forth instead?
> > > Or try VFX?
> > > Or Swiftforth?
> > > And compare the documentation there with GForth?
> Forth is an algorithm like an array manipulation or equation solving. If it is so simple, there is a way to build
> Forth when required and adopt it as needed.
> > Just had a quick google about your activities and found one example
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4p-Rtqb5HM
> Seriously? Looking on activity by google? :D
>
> https://www.electronpribor.ru/catalog/6/mep-6is.htm
> https://www.electronpribor.ru/catalog/6/mep-7is.htm
>
> Just a brief snippet of devices (about 10k EUR each) which can be found in open access.
> Certified and driven by my Forth CPUs. I cannot remember a complete list where my cores
> are used.
> > Well, there was a project 25 years ago and it got a Forth onto a CPLD.
> > Now it is back with eForth on FPGA
> > https://github.com/Steve-Teal/eforth-misc16
> > GForth was involved in the first implementation and some of the people working on GForth ...
> ... and some countries bought our devices already.
> > and we made it into the original article that started me on this fun project
> > http://homepage.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/arch/risc/
> So I need to wait until you make it standard? Or join your project even all of you seems to
> feel problems clearly stated project goals and carry it properly? Do you think I need more than
> 1 hour to implement your processor in Verilog and run it on FPGA?

Thanks for the feedback.

It is interesting to see your presentation on youtube

Why do you not go ahead
and publish a more complete list of products running on your CPUs?
And some rough details about your Forth CPUs
And which Forth is running on it.

This would be a nice coverage.
And show the Forth community where successful targets are.
And where you have been successful.

MISC16 was always an interesting project - not really targeted at commercial implementation.
But the ASIC imlementation at FH Nuremberg
showed further developments
and the view there was very positive - even potential for commecial usage.
In the beginning it was used as a promotional subject to discuss the Mixed Mode capabilities with customers.
At the time CPUs as IP was new and an interesting subject.

All of the details of the current MISC16 implementation
are on github for others to replicate or expand on.

Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> writes:
>After another portion of empty hopes on 'standard Forth' I have read first =
>page of gforth manual. I've found goals statement very non-professional and=
> not conforming base guidelines of IT projects management.
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>1 Goals of Gforth
>The goal of the Gforth Project is to develop a standard model for Standard =
>Forth. This can be split into several subgoals:
>
>Gforth should conform to the Forth Standard.
>It should be a model, i.e. it should define all the implementation-dependen=
>t things.
>It should become standard, i.e. widely accepted and used. This goal is the =
>most difficult one.
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>Really? The goal is to make project's authors... authors of another documen=
>t?

What makes you think so? The Gforth documentation is part of the
project, but it's not *the* goal of the project. If you think that
"standard" just means a specification document, you are wrong; and it
says right there what is meant by "standard": "widely accepted and
used". An English phrase for this kind of standard is "de facto
standard".

>The goal is to distribute product?

I don't see anything in the statements above that could be interpreted
in that way. Distributing Gforth is a way to achieve our goals,
however.

>I want to know WHAT IS IT first.

Maybe read earlier:

|This manual is for Gforth (version 0.7.0, November 2, 2008), a fast
|and portable implementation of the ANS Forth language.

If you want to know what Gforth (the product) is, maybe the definition
of the goals of the Gforth project is the wrong place to start, but
actually, if you continue reading after the sentences you copied
above, you might still find information about the product:

|To achieve these goals Gforth should be
| | * Similar to previous models (fig-Forth, F83)
| * Powerful. It should provide for all the things that are considered
| necessary today and even some that are not yet considered necessary.
| * Efficient. It should not get the reputation of being exceptionally slow.
| * Free.
| * Available on many machines/easy to port.
| |Have we achieved these goals? Gforth conforms to the ANS Forth
|standard. It may be considered a model, but we have not yet documented
|which parts of the model are stable and which parts we are likely to
|change. It certainly has not yet become a de facto standard, but it
|appears to be quite popular. It has some similarities to and some
|differences from previous models. It has some powerful features, but
|not yet everything that we envisioned. We certainly have achieved our
|execution speed goals (see Performance)[1]. It is free and available on
|many machines.
| |[1] However, in 1998 the bar was raised when the major commercial
|Forth vendors switched to native code compilers.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2021: https://euro.theforth.net/2021

Ilya Tarasov <ilya74.tarasov@gmail.com> writes:
>When I'm looking on product, I want t=
>o know, why I may need it.

You can find another answer in the Gforth 0.7.0 announcement
<2008Nov2.213929@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>:

|Gforth is a fast and portable implementation of the ANS Forth
|language. It works nicely with the Emacs editor, offers some nice
|features such as input completion and history, backtraces, a
|decompiler and a powerful locals facility, and it even has a
|manual. Gforth combines traditional implementation techniques with
|newer techniques for portability and performance: its inner
|interpreter is direct threaded with several optimizations, but you can
|also use a traditional-style indirect threaded interpreter. Gforth is
|distributed under the GNU General Public license (see COPYING).

>A car's goal is to bring driv=
>er and passengers from point A to point B (with velocity, safety, price, fu=
>el per km, comfort level etc). This is what I want to see.

And you see it in the car's manual? In the section on the car maker's
goals? At all? I don't think my car's manual has such a statement,
and in any case I did not read it before deciding to accept the car.

Interestingly, this is typically not in car advertisements, either
(except as required by the law, but then in small print). It seems
that car makers don't think that most potential car customers
really[1] want to see these informations.

[1] "Really" as in "it hurts sales if the manufacturer leaves these
informations away" and "it benefits sales if the manufacturer includes
them".

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2021: https://euro.theforth.net/2021

> And you see it in the car's manual? In the section on the car maker's
> goals? At all? I don't think my car's manual has such a statement,
> and in any case I did not read it before deciding to accept the car.

=========================================================Welcome to AutoCAD’s tutorial. With this suite of tools, you will be able
to produce high quality designs in less time, via the significant improvements
in precision and flexibility while working in both 2D sketches and 3D modeling.
========================================================= Welcome to Altium Designer, a full-featured end-to-end PCB electronics design
environment. Altium Designer lets you bring your ideas to life with the most powerful
PCB design environment available. Whether it's a small flex-rigid hearing aid board or
a large, high-speed network router design with over 20 layers, Altium Designer
can help you successfully create any design.
=========================================================The Vivado® Design Suite is designed to improve productivity. This tool suite
is architected to increase the overall productivity for designing, integrating, and
implementing systems using UltraScale™, 7 series, and Versal™ devices,
Zynq® UltraScale+™ MPSoCs and, Zynq®-7000 SoCs. Xilinx® devices are now
much larger and come with a variety of new technology, including stacked silicon
interconnect (SSI) technology, up to 28 gigabyte (GB) high speed I/O interfaces,
hardened microprocessors and peripherals, analog mixed signal, and more.
=========================================================

On Thursday, 17 February 2022 at 11:18:11 UTC, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> > And you see it in the car's manual? In the section on the car maker's
> > goals? At all? I don't think my car's manual has such a statement,
> > and in any case I did not read it before deciding to accept the car.
> ==========================================================
> Welcome to AutoCAD’s tutorial. With this suite of tools, you will be able
> to produce high quality designs in less time, via the significant improvements
> in precision and flexibility while working in both 2D sketches and 3D modeling.
> ==========================================================
> Welcome to Altium Designer, a full-featured end-to-end PCB electronics design
> environment. Altium Designer lets you bring your ideas to life with the most powerful
> PCB design environment available. Whether it's a small flex-rigid hearing aid board or
> a large, high-speed network router design with over 20 layers, Altium Designer
> can help you successfully create any design.
> ==========================================================
> The Vivado® Design Suite is designed to improve productivity. This tool suite
> is architected to increase the overall productivity for designing, integrating, and
> implementing systems using UltraScale™, 7 series, and Versal™ devices,
> Zynq® UltraScale+™ MPSoCs and, Zynq®-7000 SoCs. Xilinx® devices are now
> much larger and come with a variety of new technology, including stacked silicon
> interconnect (SSI) technology, up to 28 gigabyte (GB) high speed I/O interfaces,
> hardened microprocessors and peripherals, analog mixed signal, and more.
> =========================================================
I thought that marketing speak is not allowed at CLF.

четверг, 17 февраля 2022 г. в 14:35:20 UTC+3, jpit...@gmail.com:
> On Thursday, 17 February 2022 at 11:18:11 UTC, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> > > And you see it in the car's manual? In the section on the car maker's
> > > goals? At all? I don't think my car's manual has such a statement,
> > > and in any case I did not read it before deciding to accept the car.
> > ==========================================================
> > Welcome to AutoCAD’s tutorial. With this suite of tools, you will be able
> > to produce high quality designs in less time, via the significant improvements
> > in precision and flexibility while working in both 2D sketches and 3D modeling.
> > ==========================================================
> > Welcome to Altium Designer, a full-featured end-to-end PCB electronics design
> > environment. Altium Designer lets you bring your ideas to life with the most powerful
> > PCB design environment available. Whether it's a small flex-rigid hearing aid board or
> > a large, high-speed network router design with over 20 layers, Altium Designer
> > can help you successfully create any design.
> > ==========================================================
> > The Vivado® Design Suite is designed to improve productivity. This tool suite
> > is architected to increase the overall productivity for designing, integrating, and
> > implementing systems using UltraScale™, 7 series, and Versal™ devices,
> > Zynq® UltraScale+™ MPSoCs and, Zynq®-7000 SoCs. Xilinx® devices are now
> > much larger and come with a variety of new technology, including stacked silicon
> > interconnect (SSI) technology, up to 28 gigabyte (GB) high speed I/O interfaces,
> > hardened microprocessors and peripherals, analog mixed signal, and more..
> > =========================================================> I thought that marketing speak is not allowed at CLF.

Feel the difference between marketing speak and examples of widely known tools with
their manuals. Goals are clearly stated here and described in user's terms. There is no
'we want be market leaders', but 'you can design a pcb with over 20 layers'..

On Thursday, 17 February 2022 at 11:50:13 UTC, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> четверг, 17 февраля 2022 г. в 14:35:20 UTC+3, jpit...@gmail.com:
> > On Thursday, 17 February 2022 at 11:18:11 UTC, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> > > > And you see it in the car's manual? In the section on the car maker's
> > > > goals? At all? I don't think my car's manual has such a statement,
> > > > and in any case I did not read it before deciding to accept the car..
> > > ==========================================================
> > > Welcome to AutoCAD’s tutorial. With this suite of tools, you will be able
> > > to produce high quality designs in less time, via the significant improvements
> > > in precision and flexibility while working in both 2D sketches and 3D modeling.
> > > ==========================================================
> > > Welcome to Altium Designer, a full-featured end-to-end PCB electronics design
> > > environment. Altium Designer lets you bring your ideas to life with the most powerful
> > > PCB design environment available. Whether it's a small flex-rigid hearing aid board or
> > > a large, high-speed network router design with over 20 layers, Altium Designer
> > > can help you successfully create any design.
> > > ==========================================================
> > > The Vivado® Design Suite is designed to improve productivity. This tool suite
> > > is architected to increase the overall productivity for designing, integrating, and
> > > implementing systems using UltraScale™, 7 series, and Versal™ devices,
> > > Zynq® UltraScale+™ MPSoCs and, Zynq®-7000 SoCs. Xilinx® devices are now
> > > much larger and come with a variety of new technology, including stacked silicon
> > > interconnect (SSI) technology, up to 28 gigabyte (GB) high speed I/O interfaces,
> > > hardened microprocessors and peripherals, analog mixed signal, and more.
> > > ==========================================================
> > I thought that marketing speak is not allowed at CLF.
> Feel the difference between marketing speak and examples of widely known tools with
> their manuals. Goals are clearly stated here and described in user's terms. There is no
> 'we want be market leaders', but 'you can design a pcb with over 20 layers'.

This was not serious but sarcastic from my side.
How can you sell /make known products / information without telling people it is there.

> Why do you not go ahead
> and publish a more complete list of products running on your CPUs?

Publish where and for what? Picture gallery is on 3 slides and I remember
there are other devices.

> And some rough details about your Forth CPUs
> And which Forth is running on it.

Now it is 8-th generation of my 'baseline' CPU core. I see no problems to write
a corresponding version of Forth cross-compiler and don't need a github
team to do it.

I've forgot about telling about my projects after reading about MCU with
Forth, connected with a pen by a sticky type. Since when, Euroforth conference
is not a place where I want to see my articles. After Anton Ertl dared to name me
a troll because I asked him about his projects and contacts with customers,
I realized he is just a looser and uses Forth to ciltivate his ambitions.

> This would be a nice coverage.
> And show the Forth community where successful targets are.
> And where you have been successful.

I did it many times, but it looks not interesting compared to rumors about
possible Forth successes. Provided by the 'right people', riding Forth brand.
> MISC16 was always an interesting project - not really targeted at commercial implementation.

It is simple and trivial. Nothing interesting. Many ways to improve, but re-architecturing is better.

On Thursday, 17 February 2022 at 12:25:34 UTC, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> > Why do you not go ahead
> > and publish a more complete list of products running on your CPUs?
> Publish where and for what? Picture gallery is on 3 slides and I remember
> there are other devices.
> > And some rough details about your Forth CPUs
> > And which Forth is running on it.
> Now it is 8-th generation of my 'baseline' CPU core. I see no problems to write
> a corresponding version of Forth cross-compiler and don't need a github
> team to do it.
>
> I've forgot about telling about my projects after reading about MCU with
> Forth, connected with a pen by a sticky type. Since when, Euroforth conference
> is not a place where I want to see my articles. After Anton Ertl dared to name me
> a troll because I asked him about his projects and contacts with customers,
> I realized he is just a looser and uses Forth to ciltivate his ambitions.
> > This would be a nice coverage.
> > And show the Forth community where successful targets are.
> > And where you have been successful.
> I did it many times, but it looks not interesting compared to rumors about
> possible Forth successes. Provided by the 'right people', riding Forth brand.
> > MISC16 was always an interesting project - not really targeted at commercial implementation.
> It is simple and trivial. Nothing interesting. Many ways to improve, but re-architecturing is better.

In the end we are all losers - when we lose our life.

Anton comes from an academic background and might see things differently.
See the material here I just looked at http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
If he would not do a good job there
- well I assume he would not be there in his function at TU Vienna anymore.
From there:
Compilers and Languages
About us:
In science and teaching, we work on the design, implementation and use of programming languages.
Organizationally, we belong to the Institute for Information Systems Engineering
of the Faculty of Computer Science at the Vienna University of Technology.

Euroforth is one of the few organized Forth events worldwide.
Is there anything similar in Russia or elsewhere?
Definitely more involved than organizing zoom meetings.

Even if MISC16 is simple and trivial
- it shows how little resource is required to run a Forth on.
Too simple for you?
Stay away as you stay away from GForth it seems.

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 6:35:20 AM UTC-5, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, 17 February 2022 at 11:18:11 UTC, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> > > And you see it in the car's manual? In the section on the car maker's
> > > goals? At all? I don't think my car's manual has such a statement,
> > > and in any case I did not read it before deciding to accept the car.
> > ==========================================================
> > Welcome to AutoCAD’s tutorial. With this suite of tools, you will be able
> > to produce high quality designs in less time, via the significant improvements
> > in precision and flexibility while working in both 2D sketches and 3D modeling.
> > ==========================================================
> > Welcome to Altium Designer, a full-featured end-to-end PCB electronics design
> > environment. Altium Designer lets you bring your ideas to life with the most powerful
> > PCB design environment available. Whether it's a small flex-rigid hearing aid board or
> > a large, high-speed network router design with over 20 layers, Altium Designer
> > can help you successfully create any design.
> > ==========================================================
> > The Vivado® Design Suite is designed to improve productivity. This tool suite
> > is architected to increase the overall productivity for designing, integrating, and
> > implementing systems using UltraScale™, 7 series, and Versal™ devices,
> > Zynq® UltraScale+™ MPSoCs and, Zynq®-7000 SoCs. Xilinx® devices are now
> > much larger and come with a variety of new technology, including stacked silicon
> > interconnect (SSI) technology, up to 28 gigabyte (GB) high speed I/O interfaces,
> > hardened microprocessors and peripherals, analog mixed signal, and more..
> > =========================================================> I thought that marketing speak is not allowed at CLF.

Lol! Show me the rules! Who is the enforcer? Various Forths are promoted here all the time. There are no rules in newsgroups other than criminal behavior that can be enforced by the authorities of a country.

Ilya is one of the more lucid trolls here. I have no idea why he created this thread. But it is within his typical behavior of picking on someone or something for not meeting his idea of what Forth is about. I can see where the two of you would be largely at odds since you often do the same sort of thing. The mere fact that you are in this conversation beyond the opening questions to Ilya shows you are very much like Ilya.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Thursday, 17 February 2022 at 14:39:22 UTC, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 6:35:20 AM UTC-5, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, 17 February 2022 at 11:18:11 UTC, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> > > > And you see it in the car's manual? In the section on the car maker's
> > > > goals? At all? I don't think my car's manual has such a statement,
> > > > and in any case I did not read it before deciding to accept the car..
> > > ==========================================================
> > > Welcome to AutoCAD’s tutorial. With this suite of tools, you will be able
> > > to produce high quality designs in less time, via the significant improvements
> > > in precision and flexibility while working in both 2D sketches and 3D modeling.
> > > ==========================================================
> > > Welcome to Altium Designer, a full-featured end-to-end PCB electronics design
> > > environment. Altium Designer lets you bring your ideas to life with the most powerful
> > > PCB design environment available. Whether it's a small flex-rigid hearing aid board or
> > > a large, high-speed network router design with over 20 layers, Altium Designer
> > > can help you successfully create any design.
> > > ==========================================================
> > > The Vivado® Design Suite is designed to improve productivity. This tool suite
> > > is architected to increase the overall productivity for designing, integrating, and
> > > implementing systems using UltraScale™, 7 series, and Versal™ devices,
> > > Zynq® UltraScale+™ MPSoCs and, Zynq®-7000 SoCs. Xilinx® devices are now
> > > much larger and come with a variety of new technology, including stacked silicon
> > > interconnect (SSI) technology, up to 28 gigabyte (GB) high speed I/O interfaces,
> > > hardened microprocessors and peripherals, analog mixed signal, and more.
> > > ==========================================================
> > I thought that marketing speak is not allowed at CLF.
> Lol! Show me the rules! Who is the enforcer? Various Forths are promoted here all the time. There are no rules in newsgroups other than criminal behavior that can be enforced by the authorities of a country.
>
> Ilya is one of the more lucid trolls here. I have no idea why he created this thread. But it is within his typical behavior of picking on someone or something for not meeting his idea of what Forth is about. I can see where the two of you would be largely at odds since you often do the same sort of thing. The mere fact that you are in this conversation beyond the opening questions to Ilya shows you are very much like Ilya.
>
> --
>
> Rick C.
>
> + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
> + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

The obvious troll here is you Ricky from Arius incy https://www.linkedin.com/in/ariusinc/#experience

The mere fact that you are in this conversation beyond the opening questions to Ilya shows you are very much like Ilya.

ditto

On Thursday, 17 February 2022 at 17:22:29 UTC, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> On Thursday, 17 February 2022 at 14:39:22 UTC, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 6:35:20 AM UTC-5, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, 17 February 2022 at 11:18:11 UTC, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> > > > > And you see it in the car's manual? In the section on the car maker's
> > > > > goals? At all? I don't think my car's manual has such a statement,
> > > > > and in any case I did not read it before deciding to accept the car.
> > > > ==========================================================
> > > > Welcome to AutoCAD’s tutorial. With this suite of tools, you will be able
> > > > to produce high quality designs in less time, via the significant improvements
> > > > in precision and flexibility while working in both 2D sketches and 3D modeling.
> > > > ==========================================================
> > > > Welcome to Altium Designer, a full-featured end-to-end PCB electronics design
> > > > environment. Altium Designer lets you bring your ideas to life with the most powerful
> > > > PCB design environment available. Whether it's a small flex-rigid hearing aid board or
> > > > a large, high-speed network router design with over 20 layers, Altium Designer
> > > > can help you successfully create any design.
> > > > ==========================================================
> > > > The Vivado® Design Suite is designed to improve productivity. This tool suite
> > > > is architected to increase the overall productivity for designing, integrating, and
> > > > implementing systems using UltraScale™, 7 series, and Versal™ devices,
> > > > Zynq® UltraScale+™ MPSoCs and, Zynq®-7000 SoCs. Xilinx® devices are now
> > > > much larger and come with a variety of new technology, including stacked silicon
> > > > interconnect (SSI) technology, up to 28 gigabyte (GB) high speed I/O interfaces,
> > > > hardened microprocessors and peripherals, analog mixed signal, and more.
> > > > ==========================================================
> > > I thought that marketing speak is not allowed at CLF.
> > Lol! Show me the rules! Who is the enforcer? Various Forths are promoted here all the time. There are no rules in newsgroups other than criminal behavior that can be enforced by the authorities of a country.
> >
> > Ilya is one of the more lucid trolls here. I have no idea why he created this thread. But it is within his typical behavior of picking on someone or something for not meeting his idea of what Forth is about. I can see where the two of you would be largely at odds since you often do the same sort of thing. The mere fact that you are in this conversation beyond the opening questions to Ilya shows you are very much like Ilya.
> >
> > --
> >
> > Rick C.
> >
> > + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
> > + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
> The obvious troll here is you Ricky from Arius incy https://www.linkedin.com/in/ariusinc/#experience
> The mere fact that you are in this conversation beyond the opening questions to Ilya shows you are very much like Ilya.
> ditto

https://www.dnb.com/business-directory/company-profiles.arius_inc.49c25ad8e6ba288f75931ce03dcb47ee.html
Sales in USD
ANNUAL SALES
$41,314

On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 12:50:44 PM UTC-5, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, 17 February 2022 at 17:22:29 UTC, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> > On Thursday, 17 February 2022 at 14:39:22 UTC, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, February 17, 2022 at 6:35:20 AM UTC-5, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, 17 February 2022 at 11:18:11 UTC, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> > > > > > And you see it in the car's manual? In the section on the car maker's
> > > > > > goals? At all? I don't think my car's manual has such a statement,
> > > > > > and in any case I did not read it before deciding to accept the car.
> > > > > ==========================================================
> > > > > Welcome to AutoCAD’s tutorial. With this suite of tools, you will be able
> > > > > to produce high quality designs in less time, via the significant improvements
> > > > > in precision and flexibility while working in both 2D sketches and 3D modeling.
> > > > > ==========================================================
> > > > > Welcome to Altium Designer, a full-featured end-to-end PCB electronics design
> > > > > environment. Altium Designer lets you bring your ideas to life with the most powerful
> > > > > PCB design environment available. Whether it's a small flex-rigid hearing aid board or
> > > > > a large, high-speed network router design with over 20 layers, Altium Designer
> > > > > can help you successfully create any design.
> > > > > ==========================================================
> > > > > The Vivado® Design Suite is designed to improve productivity.. This tool suite
> > > > > is architected to increase the overall productivity for designing, integrating, and
> > > > > implementing systems using UltraScale™, 7 series, and Versal™ devices,
> > > > > Zynq® UltraScale+™ MPSoCs and, Zynq®-7000 SoCs. Xilinx® devices are now
> > > > > much larger and come with a variety of new technology, including stacked silicon
> > > > > interconnect (SSI) technology, up to 28 gigabyte (GB) high speed I/O interfaces,
> > > > > hardened microprocessors and peripherals, analog mixed signal, and more.
> > > > > ==========================================================
> > > > I thought that marketing speak is not allowed at CLF.
> > > Lol! Show me the rules! Who is the enforcer? Various Forths are promoted here all the time. There are no rules in newsgroups other than criminal behavior that can be enforced by the authorities of a country.
> > >
> > > Ilya is one of the more lucid trolls here. I have no idea why he created this thread. But it is within his typical behavior of picking on someone or something for not meeting his idea of what Forth is about. I can see where the two of you would be largely at odds since you often do the same sort of thing. The mere fact that you are in this conversation beyond the opening questions to Ilya shows you are very much like Ilya.
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Rick C.
> > >
> > > + Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
> > > + Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
> > The obvious troll here is you Ricky from Arius incy https://www.linkedin.com/in/ariusinc/#experience
> > The mere fact that you are in this conversation beyond the opening questions to Ilya shows you are very much like Ilya.
> > ditto
> https://www.dnb.com/business-directory/company-profiles.arius_inc.49c25ad8e6ba288f75931ce03dcb47ee.html
> Sales in USD
> ANNUAL SALES
> $41,314

You are a sad person. You see everyone as a threat and respond as if you life were threatened. I feel as sorry for you as I do for Hugh. What makes you worse than Hugh, is that you seem to think you own this group and can bully people to do what you say.

The reality is you are pretty much impotent here in controlling anything. But you do like to bellow a lot. You will never understand that YOU are one of the worst things to ever happen to Forth. It is the wackos in this group that largely turn people off from Forth when they come here. Instead of help, they see bickering and bellowing. That is not how to promote Forth.. You are every bit as bad as Peter Forth.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

> Anton comes from an academic background and might see things differently.

So Dr. Sci, Full Professor cannot understand him completely? Is it so smart background?

> See the material here I just looked at http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
> If he would not do a good job there
> - well I assume he would not be there in his function at TU Vienna anymore.

No, generally this means he is quite good in teaching, but don't mean his every project is
a brilliant achievement. It is normal to have contacts with commercial companies and carry
out researches related to mainstream university/department area. If not, it seems it's
wasted time.

> Euroforth is one of the few organized Forth events worldwide.
> Is there anything similar in Russia or elsewhere?
> Definitely more involved than organizing zoom meetings.

Meetings to remember old good times and grant a plastic dragon figure? I don't know
what exactly Euroforth doing, but Forth acceptance and distribution become worse
and worse every year. It must be compared with _another_ activity of forthers just to be
sure they can implement at least something and not hiding into a rare language.
> Even if MISC16 is simple and trivial
> - it shows how little resource is required to run a Forth on.

This is meaningless. A complete device includes Forth as a subsystem. What exactly can
provide MISC16 at his minimal configuration? How many resources are required for a
complete system? How large is a MISC16 part? If MISC16 will be rewritten to be smarter and
more functional, how this will change an overall system features?

anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
>>A car's goal is to bring driver and passengers from point A to point B...
> Interestingly, this is typically not in car advertisements, either

Try this ad: the car for people who have life figured out and just
need a way to get somewhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KlNeiY4Rf4

Basic usable approach (cited by Wikipedia, known since 1980-th)
============================================================
Ideally speaking, each corporate, department, and section objective should be:
Specific – target a specific area for improvement.
Measurable – quantify or at least suggest an indicator of progress.
Assignable – specify who will do it.
Realistic – state what results can realistically be achieved, given available resources.
Time-related – specify when the result(s) can be achieved.
============================================================
There are many variants for SMART acronym, but every interpretation implies specific
measurable actions. No place for slow decay.

On Friday, February 18, 2022 at 12:33:29 PM UTC-5, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> Basic usable approach (cited by Wikipedia, known since 1980-th)
>
> ============================================================
> Ideally speaking, each corporate, department, and section objective should be:
>
> Specific – target a specific area for improvement.
> Measurable – quantify or at least suggest an indicator of progress.
> Assignable – specify who will do it.
> Realistic – state what results can realistically be achieved, given available resources.
> Time-related – specify when the result(s) can be achieved.
> ============================================================
>
> There are many variants for SMART acronym, but every interpretation implies specific
> measurable actions. No place for slow decay.

You seem to be moving the goal posts. Gforth has "Goals" and you are talking about objectives.

I remember working on a IRAD project that required a report. The report format had both a goal and an objective. There was so much confusion about the difference that someone made a joke about it. It's a bit long winded, but the short version is everyone the report writer asks to review the report says he has them confused and one should be the other, and the other should be more lofty. Finally the guy is presenting the report and starts off by saying, "My goal is to get into heaven".

What is your point about all this? Do you expect a road map of what the Gforth developers intend to do in the future? You started off complaining about their goal and saying you want to know how it is useful to you. That's neither a goal nor an objective. That is a product description.

I really don't know why you are crabbing about this. Yeah, documentation may not be what you'd like. Maybe you should take over the project and show them how to do it?

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> writes:
>anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl) writes:
>>>A car's goal is to bring driver and passengers from point A to point B...
>> Interestingly, this is typically not in car advertisements, either
>
>Try this ad: the car for people who have life figured out and just
>need a way to get somewhere.
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KlNeiY4Rf4

I claim (without proof, but a little bit of evidence, see below) that
this is the exception that proves the rule.

I asked Google for "car advertisements", clicked on the picture
search, and then on the first entry by an actual car company, and got

https://www.audi.com/ci/de/guides/communication-media/primeter-advertising.html

It's a page from Audi for its dealers with advertizing templates.
None of the templates is about getting from point A to B.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2021: https://euro.theforth.net/2021