Rocksolid Light

Welcome to novaBBS (click a section below)

mail  files  register  newsreader  groups  login

Message-ID:  

"Why should we subsidize intellectual curiosity?" -- Ronald Reagan


devel / comp.lang.forth / Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true?

SubjectAuthor
* eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
+* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornRick C
|`* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
| `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born MicroprocessorRafael Deliano
|  +* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|  |`* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|  | `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born MicroprocessorRafael Deliano
|  |  +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornRick C
|  |  `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornMarcel Hendrix
|  |   `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornWayne morellini
|  |    `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornMarcel Hendrix
|  |     +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornRick C
|  |     +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor inAnton Ertl
|  |     `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornWayne morellini
|  |      `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornKerr-Mudd, John
|  |       +* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornRick C
|  |       |`* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornKerr-Mudd, John
|  |       | `- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornRick C
|  |       `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornWayne morellini
|  |        `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornKerr-Mudd, John
|  |         `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|  |          `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornRick C
|  |           `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornWayne morellini
|  |            +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|  |            `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornRick C
|  |             +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornKerr-Mudd, John
|  |             +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornWayne morellini
|  |             +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornRick C
|  |             +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornWayne morellini
|  |             +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornWayne morellini
|  |             +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|  |             +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornRick C
|  |             +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor inJurgen Pitaske
|  |             +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornRick C
|  |             +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|  |             +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornRick C
|  |             +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|  |             +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|  |             +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|  |             `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornRick C
|  |              +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornKerr-Mudd, John
|  |              +* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornRick C
|  |              |`- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new borndxforth
|  |              +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornWayne morellini
|  |              +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|  |              +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornMark Wills
|  |              +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornWayne morellini
|  |              +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|  |              +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|  |              +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|  |              +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornWayne morellini
|  |              +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|  |              +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|  |              `- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|  `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornRick C
|   +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|   `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born MicroprocessorRafael Deliano
|    +* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornRick C
|    |`- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|    `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|     `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born MicroprocessorRafael Deliano
|      `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|       `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|        `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornRick C
|         `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|          `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornRick C
|           `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJames Brakefield
|            +- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|            `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornIlya Tarasov
|             `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJames Brakefield
|              +* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|              |`* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJames Brakefield
|              | `- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
|              `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornIlya Tarasov
|               +* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJames Brakefield
|               |`- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornIlya Tarasov
|               `* Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornRick C
|                `- Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new bornJurgen Pitaske
`* What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers andWayne morellini
 `* Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturersJurgen Pitaske
  +- Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturersRick C
  `* Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturersWayne morellini
   `* Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturersJurgen Pitaske
    `* Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturersWayne morellini
     +- Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturersRick C
     `* Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers and MCU basedPaul Rubin
      `* Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturersWayne morellini
       `* Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true? Re: What about a ForthWayne morellini
        +- Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true? Re: What about aJurgen Pitaske
        `* Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true? Re: What about adxforth
         +* Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true? Re: What about aJurgen Pitaske
         |`- Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true? Re: What about adxforth
         `* Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true? Re: What about aWayne morellini
          `* Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true?dxforth
           `* Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true?Wayne morellini
            `* Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true?dxforth
             `* Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true?Wayne morellini
              `- Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true?Jurgen Pitaske

Pages:1234
Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA

<ade4a136-c0a7-43c3-b5c1-579443262405n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=16647&group=comp.lang.forth#16647

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:1109:: with SMTP id e9mr2296940qty.290.1644062948004;
Sat, 05 Feb 2022 04:09:08 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:19e9:: with SMTP id q9mr1912897qvc.130.1644062947848;
Sat, 05 Feb 2022 04:09:07 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2022 04:09:07 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <24353909-aa67-4dfc-883d-5aa5e4dc0bc2n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=85.210.155.220; posting-account=eAOrwQkAAABheFES5y-02sBOFdTlBRio
NNTP-Posting-Host: 85.210.155.220
References: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com>
<a2a970b8-0a40-4497-b4cc-c8c7cb6260a9n@googlegroups.com> <1238469f-1394-4a09-b750-a586cfb77b37n@googlegroups.com>
<23b6594d-a7b6-4eb3-8706-f05afdc0e40cn@googlegroups.com> <952bb3f1-fac5-46a7-94ea-84cfc56b095dn@googlegroups.com>
<20220130122700.868499885e99ab936c306122@127.0.0.1> <4e7e0b4f-9af5-460c-9f5b-6326bd8a71a5n@googlegroups.com>
<c9698a69-d656-4a00-ab21-aa1c93a7431cn@googlegroups.com> <382bf4c4-ac85-4b10-a43c-a5e9edbe7cben@googlegroups.com>
<ea65eae5-e243-4590-a400-f51bbae1586dn@googlegroups.com> <5c5371c8-6c0c-44b5-a070-170d5c63fff6n@googlegroups.com>
<b0bf435e-1f7b-44ae-832f-45cd5320f702n@googlegroups.com> <d810a2db-e7ae-4e7e-b8f7-bd104b4403b5n@googlegroups.com>
<604369e0-a92f-4dc0-8b08-4d1bf12d9b69n@googlegroups.com> <07573031-5c35-4b55-bdfc-bff5f32c4fe7n@googlegroups.com>
<91f5cefd-b96a-4499-98c2-7f19fb815da2n@googlegroups.com> <a02e7a94-3dcf-4147-abf1-2cee36b245a6n@googlegroups.com>
<20220131212609.c9f721f36b4be6303eeb64a9@127.0.0.1> <fd575d5f-662c-48b0-b84f-cfe8f3078acfn@googlegroups.com>
<2de5bb26-b8d1-4c71-b757-c7f3999ad134n@googlegroups.com> <4f7e7112-5820-4245-8cc2-2803c756db69n@googlegroups.com>
<24353909-aa67-4dfc-883d-5aa5e4dc0bc2n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <ade4a136-c0a7-43c3-b5c1-579443262405n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born
Microprocessor in FPGA
From: jpita...@gmail.com (Jurgen Pitaske)
Injection-Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2022 12:09:08 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 20
 by: Jurgen Pitaske - Sat, 5 Feb 2022 12:09 UTC

On Saturday, 5 February 2022 at 11:23:28 UTC, Wayne morellini wrote:
> On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 6:45:04 PM UTC+10, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, 4 February 2022 at 23:04:56 UTC, Wayne morellini wrote:
> > > On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 7:04:32 PM UTC+10, Mark Wills wrote:
> > > > On Monday, January 31, 2022 at 9:26:08 PM UTC, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > > > > Good Grief. I thin I've seen enough of forth.
> > > > > --
> > > > > Bah, and indeed Humbug.
> > > > It's not Forth - it's usenet!!
> > > Or LessUsefullNet, these days.
> > Wayne, I think it is not correct to blame the tool,
> > if the user cannot control how to use it.
> My apologies Juergen. I was meaning, the actions of certain people, were trying to make Usenet less useful. My original post stating Usenet was degraded by them over time, got lost in posting. I don't want to dwell on it here, so just reposted the short version.

No issue we all know what is happening

Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA

<e2d6b6a8-7fcb-4ac3-8598-5d1c5fa6bef0n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=16648&group=comp.lang.forth#16648

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:2424:: with SMTP id gy4mr5144260qvb.125.1644063084923;
Sat, 05 Feb 2022 04:11:24 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:254d:: with SMTP id s13mr1772029qko.110.1644063084796;
Sat, 05 Feb 2022 04:11:24 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2022 04:11:24 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <ade4a136-c0a7-43c3-b5c1-579443262405n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=85.210.155.220; posting-account=eAOrwQkAAABheFES5y-02sBOFdTlBRio
NNTP-Posting-Host: 85.210.155.220
References: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com>
<a2a970b8-0a40-4497-b4cc-c8c7cb6260a9n@googlegroups.com> <1238469f-1394-4a09-b750-a586cfb77b37n@googlegroups.com>
<23b6594d-a7b6-4eb3-8706-f05afdc0e40cn@googlegroups.com> <952bb3f1-fac5-46a7-94ea-84cfc56b095dn@googlegroups.com>
<20220130122700.868499885e99ab936c306122@127.0.0.1> <4e7e0b4f-9af5-460c-9f5b-6326bd8a71a5n@googlegroups.com>
<c9698a69-d656-4a00-ab21-aa1c93a7431cn@googlegroups.com> <382bf4c4-ac85-4b10-a43c-a5e9edbe7cben@googlegroups.com>
<ea65eae5-e243-4590-a400-f51bbae1586dn@googlegroups.com> <5c5371c8-6c0c-44b5-a070-170d5c63fff6n@googlegroups.com>
<b0bf435e-1f7b-44ae-832f-45cd5320f702n@googlegroups.com> <d810a2db-e7ae-4e7e-b8f7-bd104b4403b5n@googlegroups.com>
<604369e0-a92f-4dc0-8b08-4d1bf12d9b69n@googlegroups.com> <07573031-5c35-4b55-bdfc-bff5f32c4fe7n@googlegroups.com>
<91f5cefd-b96a-4499-98c2-7f19fb815da2n@googlegroups.com> <a02e7a94-3dcf-4147-abf1-2cee36b245a6n@googlegroups.com>
<20220131212609.c9f721f36b4be6303eeb64a9@127.0.0.1> <fd575d5f-662c-48b0-b84f-cfe8f3078acfn@googlegroups.com>
<2de5bb26-b8d1-4c71-b757-c7f3999ad134n@googlegroups.com> <4f7e7112-5820-4245-8cc2-2803c756db69n@googlegroups.com>
<24353909-aa67-4dfc-883d-5aa5e4dc0bc2n@googlegroups.com> <ade4a136-c0a7-43c3-b5c1-579443262405n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <e2d6b6a8-7fcb-4ac3-8598-5d1c5fa6bef0n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born
Microprocessor in FPGA
From: jpita...@gmail.com (Jurgen Pitaske)
Injection-Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2022 12:11:24 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 70
 by: Jurgen Pitaske - Sat, 5 Feb 2022 12:11 UTC

On Saturday, 5 February 2022 at 12:09:09 UTC, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> On Saturday, 5 February 2022 at 11:23:28 UTC, Wayne morellini wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 6:45:04 PM UTC+10, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Friday, 4 February 2022 at 23:04:56 UTC, Wayne morellini wrote:
> > > > On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 7:04:32 PM UTC+10, Mark Wills wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, January 31, 2022 at 9:26:08 PM UTC, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > > > > > Good Grief. I thin I've seen enough of forth.
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Bah, and indeed Humbug.
> > > > > It's not Forth - it's usenet!!
> > > > Or LessUsefullNet, these days.
> > > Wayne, I think it is not correct to blame the tool,
> > > if the user cannot control how to use it.
> > My apologies Juergen. I was meaning, the actions of certain people, were trying to make Usenet less useful. My original post stating Usenet was degraded by them over time, got lost in posting. I don't want to dwell on it here, so just reposted the short version.
> No issue we all know what is happening

And as I had a bit of time and collecting all of the available material about MISC16, it had to be grabbed, cleaned up and translated anyway:

Article 2 in Vierte Dimension:

Embedded Systems '97
The former “Real-Time” trade fair with the FORTH e.V. stand is now taking place in Wiesbaden in September and has also changed organizers. In spring there is "Embedded" under a different name, but at the same place and with the same organizer. The decisive difference is that "Embedded" is successful. In the early days, the "Echtzeit" was sparsely occupied with exhibitors and the structure of the exhibitors was fairly uniform: medium-sized German industrial companies. There was often more stand personnel than visitors in the hall.
For "Embedded", the unfavorable location of the exhibition hall in Sindelfingen has been alleviated by a free shuttle bus to the S-Bahn station and parking lots. Above all, it has been possible to attract a wide range of exhibitors. At the upper end are the large semiconductor manufacturers such as Motorola. At the lower end, 1-man companies and "EMUF manufacturers". At the same time, all the important publishers and magazines. And semiconductor distributors. The fair is still so small that you can do it in one day without foot pain. And it still doesn't have the rush of the 'Electronica', you can take your time for talking. The success of the "Embedded" is reflected in the number of 4,500 visitors in 1996, which was even exceeded.
FORTH was also represented this year, albeit sparingly and mostly hidden. Most obvious was FORTH at Forth Engineering, that is Wolf Wejgaard demonstrating HOLON on the 68HC11. He had a small booth in a good location that couldn't be missed. In addition, he had set up his presentation clearly and visually well visible.
He also gave the lecture at the accompanying congress and not Beierlein as announced.
Otherwise you had to search to find FORTH. Gforth for the MISC was at Mixed Mode. Flyers and excerpts from the ANS standard as well as diskettes were distributed there. At the Glyn booth I had a CCD demo with flyers explaining Forth. Lascar no longer exhibited Triangle's boards. But you could show on request a demo device with the latest system from Triangle there. The number of units sold in Germany is too low to justify active sales. They are now using PC 104 there. Naturally, FS Flesch was also there. LMI still has it in the catalogue, but FORTH is a thing of the past there. Ditto Diessner. Temic focused on 8051/ISparclets. But the GEMAC stand had only one topic: MARC4. And plenty of informational material from Temic.
What was not to be seen was also positively noted: a disorganized booth of FORTH e.V., where hobbyists in SWAP-dragon-T-shirts scared potential users from the industry. If FORTH e.V. wants to appear at trade fairs, one should put in the money and preparation to make an adequate appearance possible. For the years to come, a joint stand for several FORTH providers/users would be desirable. A participation as single companies is not promising because the costs are too high.
Rafael Deliano

Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA

<cc7f2461-b896-4197-901c-5cae6f512d1cn@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=16650&group=comp.lang.forth#16650

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:c2f:: with SMTP id a15mr4917239qvd.0.1644065450382;
Sat, 05 Feb 2022 04:50:50 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1914:: with SMTP id bj20mr1875684qkb.56.1644065450234;
Sat, 05 Feb 2022 04:50:50 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2022 04:50:50 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <e2d6b6a8-7fcb-4ac3-8598-5d1c5fa6bef0n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=85.210.155.220; posting-account=eAOrwQkAAABheFES5y-02sBOFdTlBRio
NNTP-Posting-Host: 85.210.155.220
References: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com>
<a2a970b8-0a40-4497-b4cc-c8c7cb6260a9n@googlegroups.com> <1238469f-1394-4a09-b750-a586cfb77b37n@googlegroups.com>
<23b6594d-a7b6-4eb3-8706-f05afdc0e40cn@googlegroups.com> <952bb3f1-fac5-46a7-94ea-84cfc56b095dn@googlegroups.com>
<20220130122700.868499885e99ab936c306122@127.0.0.1> <4e7e0b4f-9af5-460c-9f5b-6326bd8a71a5n@googlegroups.com>
<c9698a69-d656-4a00-ab21-aa1c93a7431cn@googlegroups.com> <382bf4c4-ac85-4b10-a43c-a5e9edbe7cben@googlegroups.com>
<ea65eae5-e243-4590-a400-f51bbae1586dn@googlegroups.com> <5c5371c8-6c0c-44b5-a070-170d5c63fff6n@googlegroups.com>
<b0bf435e-1f7b-44ae-832f-45cd5320f702n@googlegroups.com> <d810a2db-e7ae-4e7e-b8f7-bd104b4403b5n@googlegroups.com>
<604369e0-a92f-4dc0-8b08-4d1bf12d9b69n@googlegroups.com> <07573031-5c35-4b55-bdfc-bff5f32c4fe7n@googlegroups.com>
<91f5cefd-b96a-4499-98c2-7f19fb815da2n@googlegroups.com> <a02e7a94-3dcf-4147-abf1-2cee36b245a6n@googlegroups.com>
<20220131212609.c9f721f36b4be6303eeb64a9@127.0.0.1> <fd575d5f-662c-48b0-b84f-cfe8f3078acfn@googlegroups.com>
<2de5bb26-b8d1-4c71-b757-c7f3999ad134n@googlegroups.com> <4f7e7112-5820-4245-8cc2-2803c756db69n@googlegroups.com>
<24353909-aa67-4dfc-883d-5aa5e4dc0bc2n@googlegroups.com> <ade4a136-c0a7-43c3-b5c1-579443262405n@googlegroups.com>
<e2d6b6a8-7fcb-4ac3-8598-5d1c5fa6bef0n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <cc7f2461-b896-4197-901c-5cae6f512d1cn@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born
Microprocessor in FPGA
From: jpita...@gmail.com (Jurgen Pitaske)
Injection-Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2022 12:50:50 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 148
 by: Jurgen Pitaske - Sat, 5 Feb 2022 12:50 UTC

On Saturday, 5 February 2022 at 12:11:26 UTC, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> On Saturday, 5 February 2022 at 12:09:09 UTC, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> > On Saturday, 5 February 2022 at 11:23:28 UTC, Wayne morellini wrote:
> > > On Saturday, February 5, 2022 at 6:45:04 PM UTC+10, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Friday, 4 February 2022 at 23:04:56 UTC, Wayne morellini wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, February 4, 2022 at 7:04:32 PM UTC+10, Mark Wills wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, January 31, 2022 at 9:26:08 PM UTC, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
> > > > > > > Good Grief. I thin I've seen enough of forth.
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Bah, and indeed Humbug.
> > > > > > It's not Forth - it's usenet!!
> > > > > Or LessUsefullNet, these days.
> > > > Wayne, I think it is not correct to blame the tool,
> > > > if the user cannot control how to use it.
> > > My apologies Juergen. I was meaning, the actions of certain people, were trying to make Usenet less useful. My original post stating Usenet was degraded by them over time, got lost in posting. I don't want to dwell on it here, so just reposted the short version.
> > No issue we all know what is happening
> And as I had a bit of time and collecting all of the available material about MISC16, it had to be grabbed, cleaned up and translated anyway:
>
> Article 2 in Vierte Dimension:
>
> Embedded Systems '97
> The former “Real-Time” trade fair with the FORTH e.V. stand is now taking place in Wiesbaden in September and has also changed organizers. In spring there is "Embedded" under a different name, but at the same place and with the same organizer. The decisive difference is that "Embedded" is successful. In the early days, the "Echtzeit" was sparsely occupied with exhibitors and the structure of the exhibitors was fairly uniform: medium-sized German industrial companies. There was often more stand personnel than visitors in the hall.
> For "Embedded", the unfavorable location of the exhibition hall in Sindelfingen has been alleviated by a free shuttle bus to the S-Bahn station and parking lots. Above all, it has been possible to attract a wide range of exhibitors. At the upper end are the large semiconductor manufacturers such as Motorola. At the lower end, 1-man companies and "EMUF manufacturers". At the same time, all the important publishers and magazines. And semiconductor distributors. The fair is still so small that you can do it in one day without foot pain. And it still doesn't have the rush of the 'Electronica', you can take your time for talking. The success of the "Embedded" is reflected in the number of 4,500 visitors in 1996, which was even exceeded.
> FORTH was also represented this year, albeit sparingly and mostly hidden. Most obvious was FORTH at Forth Engineering, that is Wolf Wejgaard demonstrating HOLON on the 68HC11. He had a small booth in a good location that couldn't be missed. In addition, he had set up his presentation clearly and visually well visible.
> He also gave the lecture at the accompanying congress and not Beierlein as announced.
> Otherwise you had to search to find FORTH. Gforth for the MISC was at Mixed Mode. Flyers and excerpts from the ANS standard as well as diskettes were distributed there. At the Glyn booth I had a CCD demo with flyers explaining Forth. Lascar no longer exhibited Triangle's boards. But you could show on request a demo device with the latest system from Triangle there. The number of units sold in Germany is too low to justify active sales. They are now using PC 104 there. Naturally, FS Flesch was also there. LMI still has it in the catalogue, but FORTH is a thing of the past there. Ditto Diessner. Temic focused on 8051/ISparclets. But the GEMAC stand had only one topic: MARC4. And plenty of informational material from Temic.
> What was not to be seen was also positively noted: a disorganized booth of FORTH e.V., where hobbyists in SWAP-dragon-T-shirts scared potential users from the industry. If FORTH e.V. wants to appear at trade fairs, one should put in the money and preparation to make an adequate appearance possible.. For the years to come, a joint stand for several FORTH providers/users would be desirable. A participation as single companies is not promising because the costs are too high.
> Rafael Deliano

There are 3 articles in Vierte Dimension 1997 about the MISC and so here the third translation.

( and it takes 25 years to find out, that the picture there is wrong:
it should be the MISC Instruction Set, but is an LCD Interface ...
The relevant instructions for the MISC16 as of today you can find here:
https://github.com/Steve-Teal/eforth-misc16

and the 3 articles from 1997 are here
https://wiki.forth-ev.de/lib/exe/fetch.php/vd-archiv:4d1997_1.pdf

MISC
by Rafael Deliano Steinbergstr. 37; D-82110 Germering
In VD 4/96 the topic CPU in FPGA was presented in general. Here is a concrete example. The ASIC design house Mixed Mode presented the first version of the MISC processor at the "Embedded Systems" trade fair at the end of February. MISC stands for "Minimum Instruction Set Computer". The MOVE machine was chosen as the architecture here.
Tags: MISC FPGA MOVE machine
The MOVE machine concept is of recent origin [1] [2] and was apparently first realized in Germany in 1990 as part of a diploma thesis at the Nuernberg University of Applied Sciences [3]. The 16-bit CPU at that time was manufactured in prototype numbers at AMS in Graz, occupies 2300 gates and, according to the (quite optimistic) information of the Nuremberg developers, comes close to the 68000 in terms of computing power. For the implementation of Mixed Mode, the boundary conditions were considerably tougher, because the CPU was to be housed in an FPGA. The Lattice 6192 component used has been in production for half a year and thus represents the state of the art that has been achieved with FPGAs. It holds the 2000 gates of the CPU and even has some internal RAM, enough for stacks anyway. Its QFP package with 208 pins has enough pins to lead out the data and address bus, each with a width of 16 bits. 32k Word EPROM and 32k Word SRAM are installed externally on the demo board.
A MOVE machine has only one command:
MOVE source, destination
The command fetches a data word from "source" and stores it in "destination". Since there is only one instruction, you don't need the opcode. Only the two 16-bit addresses are still in memory:
source , destination
In practice, one accesses the basic commands of the CPU here in the same way as one previously accessed I/0. Example: the "command" for addition is actually a target address, namely 000Bh, and reads: "ACCU+source->ACCU". The sum of the accumulator and the source address ends up back in the accumulator. The memory therefore contains these two addresses as commands:
source , 000Bh
This minimum CPU was defined according to this scheme, the instruction set of which is in the picture. A UART was also integrated at the same time, which is permanently set to 9600 baud 8N1. By combining the microcode instructions, Mixed Mode was able to define an assembler that has about 40 instructions and is similar to what is found on a conventional CPU.
However, users today are no longer inclined to program their CPUs in assembler. In addition, the MISC with 16-bit data word width and 64k address space is perfectly suitable for a high-level language. While Mixed Mode was developing a C compiler for it at C speed, they contacted the FORTH company about a FORTH compiler. After Bernd Paysan and Jens Wike had been presented with the MISC specs on Friday at 5 p.m., they managed to port Gforth by Sunday 1 a.m. (at night) in just over 48 hours. For the trade fair, which took place two weeks later, it was planned that Tetris would run as a demo on the MISC via the UART on an ANSI terminal. The layout of the printed circuit board, and problems with the FPGA in particular, led to delays. The hardware was on the first day of the trade fair. Although then available, but far too unstable to be able to demonstrate something live. At least the visitors could take along plenty of information material and a simulator on diskette with MISC and Gforth. While most new RISCs do not get beyond a VHDL simulation model and only a few are cast in silicon, the MISC is now also supported by compilers.

[1] Jones "The Ultimate RiSC" Computer Architecture News June 1988 p.48-55
[2] Griffin,,The UItimate UItimate RiSC? Computer Architecture News Jm 1989 pp. 26-32
[3] Eichele, Leuschner "A new Risc architecture" Franzis-"Electronics" 17190 p. 49-54

What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers and MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA

<f0378790-d9e7-4e15-ab94-f3370f949266n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=16656&group=comp.lang.forth#16656

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
X-Received: by 2002:ae9:df85:: with SMTP id t127mr3213510qkf.744.1644115188351;
Sat, 05 Feb 2022 18:39:48 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a37:30e:: with SMTP id 14mr3190859qkd.571.1644115188184;
Sat, 05 Feb 2022 18:39:48 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2022 18:39:47 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=49.197.68.138; posting-account=WyLDIgoAAAAL9-lKxDxWp0Afty5A1XnH
NNTP-Posting-Host: 49.197.68.138
References: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <f0378790-d9e7-4e15-ab94-f3370f949266n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers and
MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new
new born Microprocessor in FPGA
From: waynemor...@gmail.com (Wayne morellini)
Injection-Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2022 02:39:48 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 57
 by: Wayne morellini - Sun, 6 Feb 2022 02:39 UTC

I was wondering. We keep waiting for GA, to deliver something for everybody. But, the Forth standards groups could make an open source design, for anybody to manufacture. But, based on colorforth instruction set, as "ForthMini", or "Forth-" and official extensions to it (which is 386x compatible).. I'm a fan of the slotted environment, and 4 bit slots (with some memory based instructions of course), as you can't get memory to keep up with instruction speed. The memory word width addressing would be equivalent to the chip data path width, to expand memory foot print, with seperate read, write, storage executable read, video, and specialist processing/sound banks possible. Which means that the 16 bit will have up to 21 bit words of memory. However, this means there needs to be a way to peer and modify into the banks. Which might be a section of memory that can be mapped into any bank, but segment aligned by the most significant bit boundaries (if 10 bits of memory words is used for the window, that leaves a memory based register of 11 bits, to where you can point the segment. But, as you would have 16 bits available in a memory register, 26 bit words of banks is possible. Any of the banks could almost be setup to be used in anyway, but those extra 5 bits could come on handy for storage addressing, which would be about 128MB on a 16 bit. The shared bus (though video and specialist processing can have their own buses) will reduce performance, but it's really about low energy embedded design. A manufacturer can put in extra busses and higher clock rate.

But, there is room for 8 bit, 16 bit and 32bit versions, and people like yourself and Ting already have items out there. There could be a second ultra light version of the 16 bit, and 8 bit, suitable for smaller FPGA usage, where VLIW is used.

I've tried to contact Bernard on the commercial chips on his s design last week, but didn't hear back. So, I don't know what he's up to.

Anyway, the chip designs, maybe based on current design, and come in RAW cell form suitable to be put into a chip that only has memory interfaces, and maybe some data links, from which an array can be made. The CE form is more like the mup21 concept, but with counter based clocked video, and sound, and CE interfaces and USB, wifi, mobile like hardware cells attached (maybe all open sourced cells). The last is the Embedded controller, with embedded control interfaces. I have to point out, that ARM, has pushed a lot of useful high speed interfaces through standards groups in the past, which would be useful to support, which could be added to any of these.

The best part is, you can mix these three core types in an array. So, an array can have 8, 16 or 32 bit array, with an 8, 16, 32 bit embedded and or CE core on the outside, providing interface services. Like ARM, different manufacturers can adopt them into a range. While it is great to have x86 or ARM system, there will still be a need for low energy low cost stock controllers. They are Simple Instruction Set Controllers (SISC). Misc has become over simplified which makes it difficult.

The point of these, is simple little work horses you could use in projects for decades, that are so simple, they don't have to be redesigned, except in new interfaces, unlike ARM. The 8 bit is a more functional replacement for 4 bit, the 16 bit, is a more functional alternative to 8 bit. The 32 bit is a more functional alternative to 16 bit. As these cores are so simple, their transistor counts will be closer to the next level down, but their performance a lot better.

Anyway, that's the idea.

Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers and MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA

<c667671f-c944-438a-8afe-da695e6be843n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=16669&group=comp.lang.forth#16669

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:190b:: with SMTP id w11mr4557103qtc.186.1644137955110;
Sun, 06 Feb 2022 00:59:15 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:ad4:5be8:: with SMTP id k8mr7250864qvc.38.1644137954931;
Sun, 06 Feb 2022 00:59:14 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 00:59:14 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <f0378790-d9e7-4e15-ab94-f3370f949266n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=85.210.155.220; posting-account=eAOrwQkAAABheFES5y-02sBOFdTlBRio
NNTP-Posting-Host: 85.210.155.220
References: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com> <f0378790-d9e7-4e15-ab94-f3370f949266n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <c667671f-c944-438a-8afe-da695e6be843n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers
and MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new
new born Microprocessor in FPGA
From: jpita...@gmail.com (Jurgen Pitaske)
Injection-Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2022 08:59:15 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 79
 by: Jurgen Pitaske - Sun, 6 Feb 2022 08:59 UTC

On Sunday, 6 February 2022 at 02:39:49 UTC, Wayne morellini wrote:
> I was wondering. We keep waiting for GA, to deliver something for everybody. But, the Forth standards groups could make an open source design, for anybody to manufacture. But, based on colorforth instruction set, as "ForthMini", or "Forth-" and official extensions to it (which is 386x compatible). I'm a fan of the slotted environment, and 4 bit slots (with some memory based instructions of course), as you can't get memory to keep up with instruction speed. The memory word width addressing would be equivalent to the chip data path width, to expand memory foot print, with seperate read, write, storage executable read, video, and specialist processing/sound banks possible. Which means that the 16 bit will have up to 21 bit words of memory. However, this means there needs to be a way to peer and modify into the banks. Which might be a section of memory that can be mapped into any bank, but segment aligned by the most significant bit boundaries (if 10 bits of memory words is used for the window, that leaves a memory based register of 11 bits, to where you can point the segment. But, as you would have 16 bits available in a memory register, 26 bit words of banks is possible. Any of the banks could almost be setup to be used in anyway, but those extra 5 bits could come on handy for storage addressing, which would be about 128MB on a 16 bit. The shared bus (though video and specialist processing can have their own buses) will reduce performance, but it's really about low energy embedded design. A manufacturer can put in extra busses and higher clock rate.
>
> But, there is room for 8 bit, 16 bit and 32bit versions, and people like yourself and Ting already have items out there. There could be a second ultra light version of the 16 bit, and 8 bit, suitable for smaller FPGA usage, where VLIW is used.
>
> I've tried to contact Bernard on the commercial chips on his s design last week, but didn't hear back. So, I don't know what he's up to.
>
> Anyway, the chip designs, maybe based on current design, and come in RAW cell form suitable to be put into a chip that only has memory interfaces, and maybe some data links, from which an array can be made. The CE form is more like the mup21 concept, but with counter based clocked video, and sound, and CE interfaces and USB, wifi, mobile like hardware cells attached (maybe all open sourced cells). The last is the Embedded controller, with embedded control interfaces. I have to point out, that ARM, has pushed a lot of useful high speed interfaces through standards groups in the past, which would be useful to support, which could be added to any of these.
>
> The best part is, you can mix these three core types in an array. So, an array can have 8, 16 or 32 bit array, with an 8, 16, 32 bit embedded and or CE core on the outside, providing interface services. Like ARM, different manufacturers can adopt them into a range. While it is great to have x86 or ARM system, there will still be a need for low energy low cost stock controllers. They are Simple Instruction Set Controllers (SISC). Misc has become over simplified which makes it difficult.
>
> The point of these, is simple little work horses you could use in projects for decades, that are so simple, they don't have to be redesigned, except in new interfaces, unlike ARM. The 8 bit is a more functional replacement for 4 bit, the 16 bit, is a more functional alternative to 8 bit. The 32 bit is a more functional alternative to 16 bit. As these cores are so simple, their transistor counts will be closer to the next level down, but their performance a lot better.
>
> Anyway, that's the idea.

There is Bernd's b16
- designed probably 20 years ago and now running in thousands or even millions of products.
https://bernd-paysan.de/b16.html
Unfortunately there is not much official documentation
about the applications it is used in successfully now.
Such information could definitely trigger more designs
as there is a success story ( not talked about much in the Forth community or else ).

There are many machines that can run Forth Words.
But it has not caught on.
Neither in the Maker community.
It seems to be easier to use a standard microprocessor - and most probably cheaper.
There is probably no pressure for GA to update a chip that is about 10 years old.
This means to me, that it is either good enough for the applications it is used in,
or too expensive to update, looking at the return that might come out.

Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers and MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA

<b95da635-025b-49c3-9c4e-57bab526487fn@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=16683&group=comp.lang.forth#16683

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:28c3:: with SMTP id l3mr4481101qkp.633.1644171620434;
Sun, 06 Feb 2022 10:20:20 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:4093:: with SMTP id f19mr4667551qko.306.1644171620171;
Sun, 06 Feb 2022 10:20:20 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!newsreader4.netcologne.de!news.netcologne.de!peer03.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer02.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 10:20:20 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <c667671f-c944-438a-8afe-da695e6be843n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=65.207.89.54; posting-account=I-_H_woAAAA9zzro6crtEpUAyIvzd19b
NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.207.89.54
References: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com>
<f0378790-d9e7-4e15-ab94-f3370f949266n@googlegroups.com> <c667671f-c944-438a-8afe-da695e6be843n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <b95da635-025b-49c3-9c4e-57bab526487fn@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers
and MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new
new born Microprocessor in FPGA
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
Injection-Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2022 18:20:20 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Received-Bytes: 8254
 by: Rick C - Sun, 6 Feb 2022 18:20 UTC

On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 3:59:16 AM UTC-5, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, 6 February 2022 at 02:39:49 UTC, Wayne morellini wrote:
> > I was wondering. We keep waiting for GA, to deliver something for everybody. But, the Forth standards groups could make an open source design, for anybody to manufacture. But, based on colorforth instruction set, as "ForthMini", or "Forth-" and official extensions to it (which is 386x compatible). I'm a fan of the slotted environment, and 4 bit slots (with some memory based instructions of course), as you can't get memory to keep up with instruction speed. The memory word width addressing would be equivalent to the chip data path width, to expand memory foot print, with seperate read, write, storage executable read, video, and specialist processing/sound banks possible. Which means that the 16 bit will have up to 21 bit words of memory. However, this means there needs to be a way to peer and modify into the banks. Which might be a section of memory that can be mapped into any bank, but segment aligned by the most significant bit boundaries (if 10 bits of memory words is used for the window, that leaves a memory based register of 11 bits, to where you can point the segment. But, as you would have 16 bits available in a memory register, 26 bit words of banks is possible. Any of the banks could almost be setup to be used in anyway, but those extra 5 bits could come on handy for storage addressing, which would be about 128MB on a 16 bit. The shared bus (though video and specialist processing can have their own buses) will reduce performance, but it's really about low energy embedded design. A manufacturer can put in extra busses and higher clock rate.
> >
> > But, there is room for 8 bit, 16 bit and 32bit versions, and people like yourself and Ting already have items out there. There could be a second ultra light version of the 16 bit, and 8 bit, suitable for smaller FPGA usage, where VLIW is used.
> >
> > I've tried to contact Bernard on the commercial chips on his s design last week, but didn't hear back. So, I don't know what he's up to.
> >
> > Anyway, the chip designs, maybe based on current design, and come in RAW cell form suitable to be put into a chip that only has memory interfaces, and maybe some data links, from which an array can be made. The CE form is more like the mup21 concept, but with counter based clocked video, and sound, and CE interfaces and USB, wifi, mobile like hardware cells attached (maybe all open sourced cells). The last is the Embedded controller, with embedded control interfaces. I have to point out, that ARM, has pushed a lot of useful high speed interfaces through standards groups in the past, which would be useful to support, which could be added to any of these.
> >
> > The best part is, you can mix these three core types in an array. So, an array can have 8, 16 or 32 bit array, with an 8, 16, 32 bit embedded and or CE core on the outside, providing interface services. Like ARM, different manufacturers can adopt them into a range. While it is great to have x86 or ARM system, there will still be a need for low energy low cost stock controllers. They are Simple Instruction Set Controllers (SISC). Misc has become over simplified which makes it difficult.
> >
> > The point of these, is simple little work horses you could use in projects for decades, that are so simple, they don't have to be redesigned, except in new interfaces, unlike ARM. The 8 bit is a more functional replacement for 4 bit, the 16 bit, is a more functional alternative to 8 bit. The 32 bit is a more functional alternative to 16 bit. As these cores are so simple, their transistor counts will be closer to the next level down, but their performance a lot better.
> >
> > Anyway, that's the idea.
> There is Bernd's b16
> - designed probably 20 years ago and now running in thousands or even millions of products.
> https://bernd-paysan.de/b16.html
> Unfortunately there is not much official documentation
> about the applications it is used in successfully now.
> Such information could definitely trigger more designs
> as there is a success story ( not talked about much in the Forth community or else ).
>
> There are many machines that can run Forth Words.
> But it has not caught on.
> Neither in the Maker community.
> It seems to be easier to use a standard microprocessor - and most probably cheaper.
> There is probably no pressure for GA to update a chip that is about 10 years old.
> This means to me, that it is either good enough for the applications it is used in,
> or too expensive to update, looking at the return that might come out.

The reason GA has not "updated" the GA144 is because they have not sold the chips they bought 10 years ago. The problems with the GA144 are very fundamental. They did not consider any use case when it was designed. It was a lab toy which they thought they could sell based on it's uniqueness. However it's uniqueness is actually it's down fall. They didn't even consider the need for I/Os that can handle voltages above 1.8V. That was because they didn't know how to provide 5V tolerant (or even 3.3V tolerant) I/Os on the same chip as the 1.8V processors. If they could have, they would have.

The other problem with the general community using a MISC chip is the need to learn this strange and alien language called Forth. I've had sales people laugh when I said I used Forth in my work... and that was the ones who had heard of Forth.

There are no killer apps for Forth software or Forth-ish chips because they don't actually do anything better than the "tip of the spear" chips from the multi-national MCU makers. Even if a MISC was made in a modern process with low power and high speed, the many limitation of the GA144 or any other MISC will prevent it from ever being a big seller. It may be ideal for some small function embedded in an ASIC, but as you have seen, they are not very visible and so not going to promote MISC.

In fact, there are small register based designs that have support from C compilers. These are the designs that may get noticed and spread around many other designs. Consider that the J1 is faster and smaller than the microBlaze and yet, the microBlaze is used much, much more widely. This is a Forth vs C issue more than a MISC vs register CPU battle.

--

Rick C.

---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers and MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA

<ec7eaa15-cbd4-471d-be6c-0ea57c02cc49n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=16690&group=comp.lang.forth#16690

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:509a:: with SMTP id kk26mr898457qvb.24.1644185570214;
Sun, 06 Feb 2022 14:12:50 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4e37:: with SMTP id d23mr6166759qtw.534.1644185570066;
Sun, 06 Feb 2022 14:12:50 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 14:12:49 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <c667671f-c944-438a-8afe-da695e6be843n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=49.197.57.78; posting-account=WyLDIgoAAAAL9-lKxDxWp0Afty5A1XnH
NNTP-Posting-Host: 49.197.57.78
References: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com>
<f0378790-d9e7-4e15-ab94-f3370f949266n@googlegroups.com> <c667671f-c944-438a-8afe-da695e6be843n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <ec7eaa15-cbd4-471d-be6c-0ea57c02cc49n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers
and MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new
new born Microprocessor in FPGA
From: waynemor...@gmail.com (Wayne morellini)
Injection-Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2022 22:12:50 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 135
 by: Wayne morellini - Sun, 6 Feb 2022 22:12 UTC

On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 6:59:16 PM UTC+10, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, 6 February 2022 at 02:39:49 UTC, Wayne morellini wrote:
> > I was wondering. We keep waiting for GA, to deliver something for everybody. But, the Forth standards groups could make an open source design, for anybody to manufacture. But, based on colorforth instruction set, as "ForthMini", or "Forth-" and official extensions to it (which is 386x compatible). I'm a fan of the slotted environment, and 4 bit slots (with some memory based instructions of course), as you can't get memory to keep up with instruction speed. The memory word width addressing would be equivalent to the chip data path width, to expand memory foot print, with seperate read, write, storage executable read, video, and specialist processing/sound banks possible. Which means that the 16 bit will have up to 21 bit words of memory. However, this means there needs to be a way to peer and modify into the banks. Which might be a section of memory that can be mapped into any bank, but segment aligned by the most significant bit boundaries (if 10 bits of memory words is used for the window, that leaves a memory based register of 11 bits, to where you can point the segment. But, as you would have 16 bits available in a memory register, 26 bit words of banks is possible. Any of the banks could almost be setup to be used in anyway, but those extra 5 bits could come on handy for storage addressing, which would be about 128MB on a 16 bit. The shared bus (though video and specialist processing can have their own buses) will reduce performance, but it's really about low energy embedded design. A manufacturer can put in extra busses and higher clock rate.
> >
> > But, there is room for 8 bit, 16 bit and 32bit versions, and people like yourself and Ting already have items out there. There could be a second ultra light version of the 16 bit, and 8 bit, suitable for smaller FPGA usage, where VLIW is used.
> >
> > I've tried to contact Bernard on the commercial chips on his s design last week, but didn't hear back. So, I don't know what he's up to.
> >
> > Anyway, the chip designs, maybe based on current design, and come in RAW cell form suitable to be put into a chip that only has memory interfaces, and maybe some data links, from which an array can be made. The CE form is more like the mup21 concept, but with counter based clocked video, and sound, and CE interfaces and USB, wifi, mobile like hardware cells attached (maybe all open sourced cells). The last is the Embedded controller, with embedded control interfaces. I have to point out, that ARM, has pushed a lot of useful high speed interfaces through standards groups in the past, which would be useful to support, which could be added to any of these.
> >
> > The best part is, you can mix these three core types in an array. So, an array can have 8, 16 or 32 bit array, with an 8, 16, 32 bit embedded and or CE core on the outside, providing interface services. Like ARM, different manufacturers can adopt them into a range. While it is great to have x86 or ARM system, there will still be a need for low energy low cost stock controllers. They are Simple Instruction Set Controllers (SISC). Misc has become over simplified which makes it difficult.
> >
> > The point of these, is simple little work horses you could use in projects for decades, that are so simple, they don't have to be redesigned, except in new interfaces, unlike ARM. The 8 bit is a more functional replacement for 4 bit, the 16 bit, is a more functional alternative to 8 bit. The 32 bit is a more functional alternative to 16 bit. As these cores are so simple, their transistor counts will be closer to the next level down, but their performance a lot better.
> >
> > Anyway, that's the idea.
> There is Bernd's b16
> - designed probably 20 years ago and now running in thousands or even millions of products.
> https://bernd-paysan.de/b16.html
> Unfortunately there is not much official documentation
> about the applications it is used in successfully now.
> Such information could definitely trigger more designs
> as there is a success story ( not talked about much in the Forth community or else ).

Well, I heard it was being manufactured here, but I still couldn't even find it with the manufacture name. I asked Bernard where I could find information on them, and haven't heard back. So, nothing I can do about this.

> There are many machines that can run Forth Words.
> But it has not caught on.

That's purely based on how it was managed.

> Neither in the Maker community.

I wouldn't expect them to know much, plus they already have an ecosystem. it needs to use as an alternative processor for Arduino and Pi, but then you don't have the software ecosystem. That's why I suggest precompiled javascript and is API support, to give something of an ecosystem, where you can just use forth, and JS api's, if you want to. New people familiar with JS can come on, and learn F- to get more performance. It's not a matter about replacing Arduino or Pi, it's about a slow grow alternative to attract its own users. It can then swim or sink.

> It seems to be easier to use a standard microprocessor - and most probably cheaper.
> There is probably no pressure for GA to update a chip that is about 10 years old.
> This means to me, that it is either good enough for the applications it is used in,
> or too expensive to update, looking at the return that might come out.

The problem with GA, is it needed to have the ability to do a universal flat programming model for everybody else, and needed a more universal integrated system as the original misc chips did. You remember, that shboom was supposed to be the best C programming language chip, before it was redone, but didn't get to the market in original form. It is the prelude to the misc chips, and a high performance design of the time. So, misc isn't the issue, it's how one implements things. I don't have to think about a specific usage so much, past doing the numbers to see if it has performance, if I design it to be universally programmable and to have best efficiency and performance for efficiency, with the required interfaces and integration People will decide if it fits their design or not. They can do the.numvets to see if it is so. We live in a mature embedded market, there is normally development kit, easy programming, expected hardware processing features and software services interfaces, expected IO interfaces, and expected libraries. Low energy or high performance, or low cost, is only part of that. With those things, you still have to play catch up. Which is why I advocate pulling on another ecosystem then play catch up. If the user can use C and JS, then they can start there or use that alongside of F-, to fill in the lack in its ecosystem, and from there a system can catch up and develop its own ecosystem. But, these are all big business concerns, not like anybody who sells some chips or some boards. It's a different mindset about victory and not just doing what we like, and how we are used to doing it. One could come along and say, they should design a 16 bit CPU like the mup22, but just with memory interface, and expect to sell 100's of billions of them, and become the richest man in Earth. It's not going work, it's not the early to mid 1970's. It requires strategy and a lot of work. Like, I could use something like yours or Benard's on a small retro console like hobbyist product, bit there are other options, and as you go to other applications, a lot more complete options. So, there is a bare minimum amount of features and works to be competitive, then better energy, efficiency, performance and cost matters. The manufacturer developer says, it can do it easily, outdo the competition, and or save 10-100 million dollars, especially if they think of using a cross all products duct lines as standard because it is below the cost price of an arm, and similarly priced but better than an 8 bit or 4 bit. I'm a bit of the Jack Tramiel school, who used to lower costs for the same, or better, quality, so nobody else could afford to compete in the home computer market. Interestingly, the MOS fab is still sitting out there in California.

Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers and MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA

<8b7ed193-3f26-473d-b2c7-47098a73ab95n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=16703&group=comp.lang.forth#16703

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:447:: with SMTP id o7mr7295591qtx.537.1644227447302;
Mon, 07 Feb 2022 01:50:47 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:514:: with SMTP id l20mr7164464qtx.86.1644227447138;
Mon, 07 Feb 2022 01:50:47 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 01:50:46 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <ec7eaa15-cbd4-471d-be6c-0ea57c02cc49n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=85.210.155.220; posting-account=eAOrwQkAAABheFES5y-02sBOFdTlBRio
NNTP-Posting-Host: 85.210.155.220
References: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com>
<f0378790-d9e7-4e15-ab94-f3370f949266n@googlegroups.com> <c667671f-c944-438a-8afe-da695e6be843n@googlegroups.com>
<ec7eaa15-cbd4-471d-be6c-0ea57c02cc49n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <8b7ed193-3f26-473d-b2c7-47098a73ab95n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers
and MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new
new born Microprocessor in FPGA
From: jpita...@gmail.com (Jurgen Pitaske)
Injection-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2022 09:50:47 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 136
 by: Jurgen Pitaske - Mon, 7 Feb 2022 09:50 UTC

On Sunday, 6 February 2022 at 22:12:51 UTC, Wayne morellini wrote:
> On Sunday, February 6, 2022 at 6:59:16 PM UTC+10, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, 6 February 2022 at 02:39:49 UTC, Wayne morellini wrote:
> > > I was wondering. We keep waiting for GA, to deliver something for everybody. But, the Forth standards groups could make an open source design, for anybody to manufacture. But, based on colorforth instruction set, as "ForthMini", or "Forth-" and official extensions to it (which is 386x compatible). I'm a fan of the slotted environment, and 4 bit slots (with some memory based instructions of course), as you can't get memory to keep up with instruction speed. The memory word width addressing would be equivalent to the chip data path width, to expand memory foot print, with seperate read, write, storage executable read, video, and specialist processing/sound banks possible. Which means that the 16 bit will have up to 21 bit words of memory. However, this means there needs to be a way to peer and modify into the banks. Which might be a section of memory that can be mapped into any bank, but segment aligned by the most significant bit boundaries (if 10 bits of memory words is used for the window, that leaves a memory based register of 11 bits, to where you can point the segment. But, as you would have 16 bits available in a memory register, 26 bit words of banks is possible. Any of the banks could almost be setup to be used in anyway, but those extra 5 bits could come on handy for storage addressing, which would be about 128MB on a 16 bit. The shared bus (though video and specialist processing can have their own buses) will reduce performance, but it's really about low energy embedded design. A manufacturer can put in extra busses and higher clock rate.
> > >
> > > But, there is room for 8 bit, 16 bit and 32bit versions, and people like yourself and Ting already have items out there. There could be a second ultra light version of the 16 bit, and 8 bit, suitable for smaller FPGA usage, where VLIW is used.
> > >
> > > I've tried to contact Bernard on the commercial chips on his s design last week, but didn't hear back. So, I don't know what he's up to.
> > >
> > > Anyway, the chip designs, maybe based on current design, and come in RAW cell form suitable to be put into a chip that only has memory interfaces, and maybe some data links, from which an array can be made. The CE form is more like the mup21 concept, but with counter based clocked video, and sound, and CE interfaces and USB, wifi, mobile like hardware cells attached (maybe all open sourced cells). The last is the Embedded controller, with embedded control interfaces. I have to point out, that ARM, has pushed a lot of useful high speed interfaces through standards groups in the past, which would be useful to support, which could be added to any of these.
> > >
> > > The best part is, you can mix these three core types in an array. So, an array can have 8, 16 or 32 bit array, with an 8, 16, 32 bit embedded and or CE core on the outside, providing interface services. Like ARM, different manufacturers can adopt them into a range. While it is great to have x86 or ARM system, there will still be a need for low energy low cost stock controllers. They are Simple Instruction Set Controllers (SISC). Misc has become over simplified which makes it difficult.
> > >
> > > The point of these, is simple little work horses you could use in projects for decades, that are so simple, they don't have to be redesigned, except in new interfaces, unlike ARM. The 8 bit is a more functional replacement for 4 bit, the 16 bit, is a more functional alternative to 8 bit. The 32 bit is a more functional alternative to 16 bit. As these cores are so simple, their transistor counts will be closer to the next level down, but their performance a lot better.
> > >
> > > Anyway, that's the idea.
> > There is Bernd's b16
> > - designed probably 20 years ago and now running in thousands or even millions of products.
> > https://bernd-paysan.de/b16.html
> > Unfortunately there is not much official documentation
> > about the applications it is used in successfully now.
> > Such information could definitely trigger more designs
> > as there is a success story ( not talked about much in the Forth community or else ).
> Well, I heard it was being manufactured here, but I still couldn't even find it with the manufacture name. I asked Bernard where I could find information on them, and haven't heard back. So, nothing I can do about this.
> > There are many machines that can run Forth Words.
> > But it has not caught on.
> That's purely based on how it was managed.
> > Neither in the Maker community.
> I wouldn't expect them to know much, plus they already have an ecosystem. it needs to use as an alternative processor for Arduino and Pi, but then you don't have the software ecosystem. That's why I suggest precompiled javascript and is API support, to give something of an ecosystem, where you can just use forth, and JS api's, if you want to. New people familiar with JS can come on, and learn F- to get more performance. It's not a matter about replacing Arduino or Pi, it's about a slow grow alternative to attract its own users. It can then swim or sink.
> > It seems to be easier to use a standard microprocessor - and most probably cheaper.
> > There is probably no pressure for GA to update a chip that is about 10 years old.
> > This means to me, that it is either good enough for the applications it is used in,
> > or too expensive to update, looking at the return that might come out.
> The problem with GA, is it needed to have the ability to do a universal flat programming model for everybody else, and needed a more universal integrated system as the original misc chips did. You remember, that shboom was supposed to be the best C programming language chip, before it was redone, but didn't get to the market in original form. It is the prelude to the misc chips, and a high performance design of the time. So, misc isn't the issue, it's how one implements things. I don't have to think about a specific usage so much, past doing the numbers to see if it has performance, if I design it to be universally programmable and to have best efficiency and performance for efficiency, with the required interfaces and integration People will decide if it fits their design or not. They can do the.numvets to see if it is so. We live in a mature embedded market, there is normally development kit, easy programming, expected hardware processing features and software services interfaces, expected IO interfaces, and expected libraries. Low energy or high performance, or low cost, is only part of that. With those things, you still have to play catch up. Which is why I advocate pulling on another ecosystem then play catch up. If the user can use C and JS, then they can start there or use that alongside of F-, to fill in the lack in its ecosystem, and from there a system can catch up and develop its own ecosystem. But, these are all big business concerns, not like anybody who sells some chips or some boards. It's a different mindset about victory and not just doing what we like, and how we are used to doing it. One could come along and say, they should design a 16 bit CPU like the mup22, but just with memory interface, and expect to sell 100's of billions of them, and become the richest man in Earth. It's not going work, it's not the early to mid 1970's. It requires strategy and a lot of work. Like, I could use something like yours or Benard's on a small retro console like hobbyist product, bit there are other options, and as you go to other applications, a lot more complete options. So, there is a bare minimum amount of features and works to be competitive, then better energy, efficiency, performance and cost matters.. The manufacturer developer says, it can do it easily, outdo the competition, and or save 10-100 million dollars, especially if they think of using a cross all products duct lines as standard because it is below the cost price of an arm, and similarly priced but better than an 8 bit or 4 bit. I'm a bit of the Jack Tramiel school, who used to lower costs for the same, or better, quality, so nobody else could afford to compete in the home computer market. Interestingly, the MOS fab is still sitting out there in California.

I assume you mean Bernd Paysan in Germany and his b16 ?
I assume he is very busy - I sent him some MISC16 links as well and did not get feedback.
https://bernd-paysan.de/b16.html

Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers and MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA

<49a3c78d-542b-414a-a0fb-b686d4442af3n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=16713&group=comp.lang.forth#16713

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:192:: with SMTP id s18mr1103436qtw.43.1644269796989;
Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:36:36 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:103c:: with SMTP id a28mr1066487qkk.419.1644269796824;
Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:36:36 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 13:36:36 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <8b7ed193-3f26-473d-b2c7-47098a73ab95n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=49.197.102.180; posting-account=WyLDIgoAAAAL9-lKxDxWp0Afty5A1XnH
NNTP-Posting-Host: 49.197.102.180
References: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com>
<f0378790-d9e7-4e15-ab94-f3370f949266n@googlegroups.com> <c667671f-c944-438a-8afe-da695e6be843n@googlegroups.com>
<ec7eaa15-cbd4-471d-be6c-0ea57c02cc49n@googlegroups.com> <8b7ed193-3f26-473d-b2c7-47098a73ab95n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <49a3c78d-542b-414a-a0fb-b686d4442af3n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers
and MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new
new born Microprocessor in FPGA
From: waynemor...@gmail.com (Wayne morellini)
Injection-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2022 21:36:36 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Lines: 7
 by: Wayne morellini - Mon, 7 Feb 2022 21:36 UTC

On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 7:50:49 PM UTC+10, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, 6 February 2022 at 22:12:51 UTC, Wayne morellini wrote:

> I assume you mean Bernd Paysan in Germany and his b16 ?
> I assume he is very busy - I sent him some MISC16 links as well and did not get feedback.
> https://bernd-paysan.de/b16.html

Yep. I wanted to find a commercial manufactured ASIC version to look at.

Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers and MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA

<f16b90aa-57fa-42b2-a526-33669b264c9fn@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=16714&group=comp.lang.forth#16714

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:40c8:: with SMTP id g8mr1086872qko.706.1644270528972;
Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:48:48 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:2406:: with SMTP id fv6mr1165137qvb.25.1644270528808;
Mon, 07 Feb 2022 13:48:48 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 13:48:48 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <49a3c78d-542b-414a-a0fb-b686d4442af3n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=65.207.89.54; posting-account=I-_H_woAAAA9zzro6crtEpUAyIvzd19b
NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.207.89.54
References: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com>
<f0378790-d9e7-4e15-ab94-f3370f949266n@googlegroups.com> <c667671f-c944-438a-8afe-da695e6be843n@googlegroups.com>
<ec7eaa15-cbd4-471d-be6c-0ea57c02cc49n@googlegroups.com> <8b7ed193-3f26-473d-b2c7-47098a73ab95n@googlegroups.com>
<49a3c78d-542b-414a-a0fb-b686d4442af3n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <f16b90aa-57fa-42b2-a526-33669b264c9fn@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers
and MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new
new born Microprocessor in FPGA
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
Injection-Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2022 21:48:48 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Lines: 19
 by: Rick C - Mon, 7 Feb 2022 21:48 UTC

On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 4:36:38 PM UTC-5, Wayne morellini wrote:
> On Monday, February 7, 2022 at 7:50:49 PM UTC+10, jpit...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, 6 February 2022 at 22:12:51 UTC, Wayne morellini wrote:
>
> > I assume you mean Bernd Paysan in Germany and his b16 ?
> > I assume he is very busy - I sent him some MISC16 links as well and did not get feedback.
> > https://bernd-paysan.de/b16.html
> Yep. I wanted to find a commercial manufactured ASIC version to look at.

I think you are going to find these ASICs are used in products rather than being chip level products that are sold. Most ASICs are never sold outside the company who designed them.

What sort of things would you want to see?

--

Rick C.

---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers and MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA

<87wni6wbvt.fsf@nightsong.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=16716&group=comp.lang.forth#16716

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: no.em...@nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers and MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2022 14:27:34 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 8
Message-ID: <87wni6wbvt.fsf@nightsong.com>
References: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com>
<f0378790-d9e7-4e15-ab94-f3370f949266n@googlegroups.com>
<c667671f-c944-438a-8afe-da695e6be843n@googlegroups.com>
<ec7eaa15-cbd4-471d-be6c-0ea57c02cc49n@googlegroups.com>
<8b7ed193-3f26-473d-b2c7-47098a73ab95n@googlegroups.com>
<49a3c78d-542b-414a-a0fb-b686d4442af3n@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Injection-Info: reader02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="92e79a9cfd2944ef6eaa68b9eeda6dc8";
logging-data="1265"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX19byJjXeHjV0MoiEMR+YQdx"
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.1 (gnu/linux)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:1kfcRd9oyPaUqoxlkvFa2VKjpB8=
sha1:sCnZXDE1XmJxbsJUWVcOjyB32mU=
 by: Paul Rubin - Mon, 7 Feb 2022 22:27 UTC

Wayne morellini <waynemorellini@gmail.com> writes:
>> https://bernd-paysan.de/b16.html
> Yep. I wanted to find a commercial manufactured ASIC version to look at.

I remember Bernd saying that a b16 controlled battery charging in some
older iPhones (no idea about current models). Because there were 1e8's
of those phones manufactured, it was worth significant effort to save a
fraction of a penny on each one.

Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers and MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA

<0e59d9bd-2284-432d-ae39-6e5a8abaf83cn@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=16719&group=comp.lang.forth#16719

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1399:: with SMTP id k25mr2247964qki.662.1644317289123;
Tue, 08 Feb 2022 02:48:09 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5f50:: with SMTP id y16mr2417752qta.307.1644317288913;
Tue, 08 Feb 2022 02:48:08 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2022 02:48:08 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <87wni6wbvt.fsf@nightsong.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=49.197.102.180; posting-account=WyLDIgoAAAAL9-lKxDxWp0Afty5A1XnH
NNTP-Posting-Host: 49.197.102.180
References: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com>
<f0378790-d9e7-4e15-ab94-f3370f949266n@googlegroups.com> <c667671f-c944-438a-8afe-da695e6be843n@googlegroups.com>
<ec7eaa15-cbd4-471d-be6c-0ea57c02cc49n@googlegroups.com> <8b7ed193-3f26-473d-b2c7-47098a73ab95n@googlegroups.com>
<49a3c78d-542b-414a-a0fb-b686d4442af3n@googlegroups.com> <87wni6wbvt.fsf@nightsong.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <0e59d9bd-2284-432d-ae39-6e5a8abaf83cn@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers
and MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new
new born Microprocessor in FPGA
From: waynemor...@gmail.com (Wayne morellini)
Injection-Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2022 10:48:09 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 82
 by: Wayne morellini - Tue, 8 Feb 2022 10:48 UTC

On Tuesday, February 8, 2022 at 8:27:37 AM UTC+10, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Wayne morellini <waynemo...@gmail.com> writes:
> >> https://bernd-paysan.de/b16.html
> > Yep. I wanted to find a commercial manufactured ASIC version to look at..
> I remember Bernd saying that a b16 controlled battery charging in some
> older iPhones (no idea about current models). Because there were 1e8's
> of those phones manufactured, it was worth significant effort to save a
> fraction of a penny on each one.

That's right. That's how high end economics work, 10's of millions of fractions of cents. But, most of those chips, we don't know what they were and where they were used, like with GA. They were paying the bills somehow for a while. However, if there was a line item for any manufacturer to use, that would be good. However, I'm interested if any were for items with video audio functions. If I were to arrange a retro project, I might start with a z80, but after that, it:s worth looking at something else. 64k and 128k, is a fair bit, if I'm using repeat tiling and mapping only some tiles to individual graphics. A lot of early games were like that, or less than that. The Atari VCS was rather primitive. They could have done a little bit more, and many more advanced games wouldn't have suffered so much, and maybe ET, would have been more enjoyable :). The astrocade offered more but the colour pallet used in games was awful. Mattel concentrated on official sports tie ins, with some interesting graphical choices. The Atari 5200 was just behind, and they didn't include the VCS compatibility. The commodores 64, just offered something better, free of licensing, development systems and contracts to tie content to consoles, which freed it. The Nintendo was maybe superior in graphics, with some interesting colour choices, and contracts that tied up content, which crushed things. Even though the Atari 7800 was what the 5200 should have been, and likely superior to the Nintendo, if they had used more memory and upgraded it, rather than using 2 year old mothballed product from the video game crash. It wasn't until the Genius, that the console industry really broke free, and that was virtually an upgraded msx like machine, that didn't go far enough. It was, as far as I know, a simple sprite based system without advanced graphics like the 7800 arcade based architecture, or the Super NES. Even the original game boy supported more sprites on screen, no restrictions, than many systems in earlier times. A mup like 16 bit misc chip optimised on the 6502's fab process could offer enough performance to do all the types of games up to the Nintendo, maybe Genesis, given the storage memory and enough clock gain on the process (as we have seen excellent clocking on past misc chip designs). I don't know about the 7800, considering its hardware was often not taxed to it's highest, and there wasn't much memory or clock. Anyway, that basically is the range of sprite game play, up to quarter VGA, to that point, excluding Amiga and SNES, and maybe the Genesis, which is pretty good. Memory performance being a limit tiny factor that has to be there to match the Genesis (likely 4mhz or more 16 bit memory access. You can still have processor time at 2mhz, but you don't have as much performance to match the rest of it), but what could you do in the early 1980's could easily match the prior systems here. Going back to 1977, we again, could match systems over 5 years out. It's all interesting comparative alternative architecture archaeology. We see, without adding specialist coprocessing, there is a performance advantage on going to the architecture. But, from the 7800, Amiga and SNES, it was growingly all about graphics coprocessing performance, and in the PC, all sorts of parallel coprocessing.. the mixture of different cores and use of an array compensates fur this somewhat, especially if your energy consumption is low enough. But, with a misc design. I was planning (years back) on adding counters and simple DMA to do displays and transfers, which if you control certain aspects of where things are moved from and too, you can move graphics, you get closer to the 7800 or Amiga like features. A few little graphics features and you have significant ability in 2D graphics, even movable objects. My misc intent extends to everything. Eben my minimalistic 3D system from the 1990's is not that much more complex than 2D, and as sophisticated as high end 3D with a fraction of the complexity, because it doesn't try to emulate through effects, it simulates, drastically cutting down the complexity of the render part, getting rid of most of the GPU, while allowing the environment and lifting to be dynamically manipulated to simulate special effects. A pixel or object can be given special rendering ability to add effects, and external effects are just an rendering object. All this should be common place by now, after that kid who sat at the computer next to the one I was using when I first came up with the scheme, and sometimes was behind me. Anyway, I can only remember so much about the over all solution set now, but the industry seems to have now caught up to the quality aims.

Anyway, misc plus a few counters and DMA features, and new types of graphics features, seems interesting.

..
..

Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true? Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers and MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA

<de2e1247-51c5-42e1-9f4e-2d8c554de542n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=16754&group=comp.lang.forth#16754

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:15cc:: with SMTP id o12mr1087341qkm.152.1644594285031;
Fri, 11 Feb 2022 07:44:45 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:2912:: with SMTP id m18mr1069558qkp.227.1644594284873;
Fri, 11 Feb 2022 07:44:44 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 07:44:44 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <0e59d9bd-2284-432d-ae39-6e5a8abaf83cn@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=49.197.17.205; posting-account=WyLDIgoAAAAL9-lKxDxWp0Afty5A1XnH
NNTP-Posting-Host: 49.197.17.205
References: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com>
<f0378790-d9e7-4e15-ab94-f3370f949266n@googlegroups.com> <c667671f-c944-438a-8afe-da695e6be843n@googlegroups.com>
<ec7eaa15-cbd4-471d-be6c-0ea57c02cc49n@googlegroups.com> <8b7ed193-3f26-473d-b2c7-47098a73ab95n@googlegroups.com>
<49a3c78d-542b-414a-a0fb-b686d4442af3n@googlegroups.com> <87wni6wbvt.fsf@nightsong.com>
<0e59d9bd-2284-432d-ae39-6e5a8abaf83cn@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <de2e1247-51c5-42e1-9f4e-2d8c554de542n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true? Re: What about a Forth
standard open source chip for manufacturers and MCU based work? Was Re:
eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA
From: waynemor...@gmail.com (Wayne morellini)
Injection-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 15:44:45 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 15
 by: Wayne morellini - Fri, 11 Feb 2022 15:44 UTC

Firstly, I searched for my post on Google, to see if the thread title had changed from Jurgens original thread, as it doesn't show up on Google groups correctly. The search for the post's text, turned up nothing. But I found Google has banned comp.lang.forth, which is a bit staggeringly ridiculous. As can be seen here:

https://lwn.net/Articles/827233/

Then, we should ban Google?

Secondly, is this thread title change to comp.lang.forth banned etc? Do you guys see my previous post that starts "That's right. That's how high end economics work,".

Remember, Google doesn't really exist without us

Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true? Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers and MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA

<e33d27f0-bacf-4e62-b046-37cb3a8648a1n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=16755&group=comp.lang.forth#16755

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
X-Received: by 2002:a37:a10a:: with SMTP id k10mr1135975qke.747.1644596216700;
Fri, 11 Feb 2022 08:16:56 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:ad4:5e8a:: with SMTP id jl10mr1595350qvb.125.1644596216515;
Fri, 11 Feb 2022 08:16:56 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 08:16:56 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <de2e1247-51c5-42e1-9f4e-2d8c554de542n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=85.210.155.220; posting-account=eAOrwQkAAABheFES5y-02sBOFdTlBRio
NNTP-Posting-Host: 85.210.155.220
References: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com>
<f0378790-d9e7-4e15-ab94-f3370f949266n@googlegroups.com> <c667671f-c944-438a-8afe-da695e6be843n@googlegroups.com>
<ec7eaa15-cbd4-471d-be6c-0ea57c02cc49n@googlegroups.com> <8b7ed193-3f26-473d-b2c7-47098a73ab95n@googlegroups.com>
<49a3c78d-542b-414a-a0fb-b686d4442af3n@googlegroups.com> <87wni6wbvt.fsf@nightsong.com>
<0e59d9bd-2284-432d-ae39-6e5a8abaf83cn@googlegroups.com> <de2e1247-51c5-42e1-9f4e-2d8c554de542n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <e33d27f0-bacf-4e62-b046-37cb3a8648a1n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true? Re: What about a
Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers and MCU based work? Was Re:
eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA
From: jpita...@gmail.com (Jurgen Pitaske)
Injection-Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 16:16:56 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 17
 by: Jurgen Pitaske - Fri, 11 Feb 2022 16:16 UTC

On Friday, 11 February 2022 at 15:44:46 UTC, Wayne morellini wrote:
> Firstly, I searched for my post on Google, to see if the thread title had changed from Jurgens original thread, as it doesn't show up on Google groups correctly. The search for the post's text, turned up nothing. But I found Google has banned comp.lang.forth, which is a bit staggeringly ridiculous.. As can be seen here:
>
> https://lwn.net/Articles/827233/
>
> Then, we should ban Google?
>
> Secondly, is this thread title change to comp.lang.forth banned etc? Do you guys see my previous post that starts "That's right. That's how high end economics work,".
>
> Remember, Google doesn't really exist without us

Yes I can see it it is a long one.

Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true? Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers and MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA

<su71h6$1flc$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=16757&group=comp.lang.forth#16757

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!7AktqsUqy5CCvnKa3S0Dkw.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: dxfo...@gmail.com (dxforth)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true? Re: What about a
Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers and MCU based work? Was Re:
eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in
FPGA
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2022 12:12:07 +1100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <su71h6$1flc$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com>
<f0378790-d9e7-4e15-ab94-f3370f949266n@googlegroups.com>
<c667671f-c944-438a-8afe-da695e6be843n@googlegroups.com>
<ec7eaa15-cbd4-471d-be6c-0ea57c02cc49n@googlegroups.com>
<8b7ed193-3f26-473d-b2c7-47098a73ab95n@googlegroups.com>
<49a3c78d-542b-414a-a0fb-b686d4442af3n@googlegroups.com>
<87wni6wbvt.fsf@nightsong.com>
<0e59d9bd-2284-432d-ae39-6e5a8abaf83cn@googlegroups.com>
<de2e1247-51c5-42e1-9f4e-2d8c554de542n@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="48812"; posting-host="7AktqsUqy5CCvnKa3S0Dkw.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.5.1
Content-Language: en-GB
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
 by: dxforth - Sat, 12 Feb 2022 01:12 UTC

On 12/02/2022 02:44, Wayne morellini wrote:
>
> Firstly, I searched for my post on Google, to see if the thread title had changed from Jurgens original thread, as it doesn't show up on Google groups correctly. The search for the post's text, turned up nothing. But I found Google has banned comp.lang.forth, which is a bit staggeringly ridiculous. As can be seen here:
>
> https://lwn.net/Articles/827233/
>
> Then, we should ban Google?
>
> Secondly, is this thread title change to comp.lang.forth banned etc? Do you guys see my previous post that starts "That's right. That's how high end economics work,".
>
> Remember, Google doesn't really exist without us

Choosing a different prostitute means nothing if one is hooked on the services
prostitutes offer.

Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true? Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers and MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA

<019bb25c-2455-4361-b800-8aa73bc28f9an@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=16758&group=comp.lang.forth#16758

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
X-Received: by 2002:ae9:df85:: with SMTP id t127mr2533957qkf.744.1644651790258;
Fri, 11 Feb 2022 23:43:10 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:21a5:: with SMTP id t5mr3614871qvc.51.1644651790102;
Fri, 11 Feb 2022 23:43:10 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2022 23:43:09 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <su71h6$1flc$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=85.210.155.220; posting-account=eAOrwQkAAABheFES5y-02sBOFdTlBRio
NNTP-Posting-Host: 85.210.155.220
References: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com>
<f0378790-d9e7-4e15-ab94-f3370f949266n@googlegroups.com> <c667671f-c944-438a-8afe-da695e6be843n@googlegroups.com>
<ec7eaa15-cbd4-471d-be6c-0ea57c02cc49n@googlegroups.com> <8b7ed193-3f26-473d-b2c7-47098a73ab95n@googlegroups.com>
<49a3c78d-542b-414a-a0fb-b686d4442af3n@googlegroups.com> <87wni6wbvt.fsf@nightsong.com>
<0e59d9bd-2284-432d-ae39-6e5a8abaf83cn@googlegroups.com> <de2e1247-51c5-42e1-9f4e-2d8c554de542n@googlegroups.com>
<su71h6$1flc$1@gioia.aioe.org>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <019bb25c-2455-4361-b800-8aa73bc28f9an@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true? Re: What about a
Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers and MCU based work? Was Re:
eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA
From: jpita...@gmail.com (Jurgen Pitaske)
Injection-Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2022 07:43:10 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 by: Jurgen Pitaske - Sat, 12 Feb 2022 07:43 UTC

On Saturday, 12 February 2022 at 01:12:10 UTC, dxforth wrote:
> On 12/02/2022 02:44, Wayne morellini wrote:
> >
> > Firstly, I searched for my post on Google, to see if the thread title had changed from Jurgens original thread, as it doesn't show up on Google groups correctly. The search for the post's text, turned up nothing. But I found Google has banned comp.lang.forth, which is a bit staggeringly ridiculous. As can be seen here:
> >
> > https://lwn.net/Articles/827233/
> >
> > Then, we should ban Google?
> >
> > Secondly, is this thread title change to comp.lang.forth banned etc? Do you guys see my previous post that starts "That's right. That's how high end economics work,".
> >
> > Remember, Google doesn't really exist without us
> Choosing a different prostitute means nothing if one is hooked on the services
> prostitutes offer.

DXFORTH NEWS:
No Forth
No eForth
No MISC
No FPGA
No ASIC
How do his preferences fit into my thread here?

eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA

His advice probably based on his experience and preferences:

> Choosing a different prostitute means nothing if one is hooked on the services
> prostitutes offer.

I wonder who of the people here are interested to know,
that dxforth is hooked on prostitutes.
I assume wrong place here to find some ...

Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true? Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers and MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA

<su9ns3$ejk$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=16761&group=comp.lang.forth#16761

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!7AktqsUqy5CCvnKa3S0Dkw.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: dxfo...@gmail.com (dxforth)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true? Re: What about a
Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers and MCU based work? Was Re:
eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in
FPGA
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 12:45:39 +1100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <su9ns3$ejk$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com>
<f0378790-d9e7-4e15-ab94-f3370f949266n@googlegroups.com>
<c667671f-c944-438a-8afe-da695e6be843n@googlegroups.com>
<ec7eaa15-cbd4-471d-be6c-0ea57c02cc49n@googlegroups.com>
<8b7ed193-3f26-473d-b2c7-47098a73ab95n@googlegroups.com>
<49a3c78d-542b-414a-a0fb-b686d4442af3n@googlegroups.com>
<87wni6wbvt.fsf@nightsong.com>
<0e59d9bd-2284-432d-ae39-6e5a8abaf83cn@googlegroups.com>
<de2e1247-51c5-42e1-9f4e-2d8c554de542n@googlegroups.com>
<su71h6$1flc$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<019bb25c-2455-4361-b800-8aa73bc28f9an@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="14964"; posting-host="7AktqsUqy5CCvnKa3S0Dkw.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.5.1
Content-Language: en-GB
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
 by: dxforth - Sun, 13 Feb 2022 01:45 UTC

On 12/02/2022 18:43, Jurgen Pitaske wrote:
> On Saturday, 12 February 2022 at 01:12:10 UTC, dxforth wrote:
>> On 12/02/2022 02:44, Wayne morellini wrote:
>> >
>> > Firstly, I searched for my post on Google, to see if the thread title had changed from Jurgens original thread, as it doesn't show up on Google groups correctly. The search for the post's text, turned up nothing. But I found Google has banned comp.lang.forth, which is a bit staggeringly ridiculous. As can be seen here:
>> >
>> > https://lwn.net/Articles/827233/
>> >
>> > Then, we should ban Google?
>> >
>> > Secondly, is this thread title change to comp.lang.forth banned etc? Do you guys see my previous post that starts "That's right. That's how high end economics work,".
>> >
>> > Remember, Google doesn't really exist without us
>> Choosing a different prostitute means nothing if one is hooked on the services
>> prostitutes offer.
>
> DXFORTH NEWS:
> No Forth
> No eForth
> No MISC
> No FPGA
> No ASIC
> How do his preferences fit into my thread here?
>
> eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA
>
> His advice probably based on his experience and preferences:
>
>> Choosing a different prostitute means nothing if one is hooked on the services
>> prostitutes offer.
>
> I wonder who of the people here are interested to know,
> that dxforth is hooked on prostitutes.
> I assume wrong place here to find some ...

I wouldn't know but this publisher might :)

https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.forth/c/wydQr643gX0/m/TxO52x4cAQAJ

Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true? Re: What about a Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers and MCU based work? Was Re: eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA

<86ddf0bd-1364-457b-b8c0-bd2bdbf88f50n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=16763&group=comp.lang.forth#16763

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:40e:: with SMTP id n14mr6366884qtx.380.1644751422879;
Sun, 13 Feb 2022 03:23:42 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5e4b:: with SMTP id i11mr6447332qtx.401.1644751422691;
Sun, 13 Feb 2022 03:23:42 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!1.us.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 03:23:42 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <su71h6$1flc$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=49.182.40.18; posting-account=WyLDIgoAAAAL9-lKxDxWp0Afty5A1XnH
NNTP-Posting-Host: 49.182.40.18
References: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com>
<f0378790-d9e7-4e15-ab94-f3370f949266n@googlegroups.com> <c667671f-c944-438a-8afe-da695e6be843n@googlegroups.com>
<ec7eaa15-cbd4-471d-be6c-0ea57c02cc49n@googlegroups.com> <8b7ed193-3f26-473d-b2c7-47098a73ab95n@googlegroups.com>
<49a3c78d-542b-414a-a0fb-b686d4442af3n@googlegroups.com> <87wni6wbvt.fsf@nightsong.com>
<0e59d9bd-2284-432d-ae39-6e5a8abaf83cn@googlegroups.com> <de2e1247-51c5-42e1-9f4e-2d8c554de542n@googlegroups.com>
<su71h6$1flc$1@gioia.aioe.org>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <86ddf0bd-1364-457b-b8c0-bd2bdbf88f50n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true? Re: What about a
Forth standard open source chip for manufacturers and MCU based work? Was Re:
eForth reborn on a late Christmas Present - a new new born Microprocessor in FPGA
From: waynemor...@gmail.com (Wayne morellini)
Injection-Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2022 11:23:42 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lines: 30
 by: Wayne morellini - Sun, 13 Feb 2022 11:23 UTC

On Saturday, February 12, 2022 at 11:12:10 AM UTC+10, dxforth wrote:
> > Remember, Google doesn't really exist without us
> Choosing a different prostitute means nothing if one is hooked on the services
> prostitutes offer.

Not useful. Plus, in this case, you mixed up the identity of the subject there. So, nobody is interested in the subject of the article. Well, a way to defeat, is to be continually negative to the point of defeat. Years ago, I was developing the cutting edge operating system design. But operating systems began including many times more baggage than their own code, Flash was released free on the web (another market opportunity gone) and Bill Gates announced they spent 100 mam years on developing the newest windows. So, it was hopeless, the big boys had blotted out the space. I made the logical, positive, decision and ceased designing. I trusted Microsoft, Apple, Linux, then Android, to do the right thing. But, not enough competency was not to be found. Those who were competent, like QNX, Tantric technologies, Geoworks and Acorn, Europress even, did not did not have the competency to make it big. If I hadn't given in to the negative situation, I could have developed a transportable code platform, and a mobile platform to compete with flash, java script and android, that could be developed in to all the other levels of operating systems people , and the world could have been a better place and we could have done well etc. Of the three of us who started around 1986, only Java succeeded, the least competent of us all. That's what people with little competency understand, it requires multiple people with multiple competencies to make success
Rather than negative people arrogantly demanding single people deliver it all.

So, despite how negative it might appear, it's about how to make it succeed..

Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true?

<suc6js$1om2$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=16776&group=comp.lang.forth#16776

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!7AktqsUqy5CCvnKa3S0Dkw.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: dxfo...@gmail.com (dxforth)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true?
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2022 11:09:34 +1100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <suc6js$1om2$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com>
<f0378790-d9e7-4e15-ab94-f3370f949266n@googlegroups.com>
<c667671f-c944-438a-8afe-da695e6be843n@googlegroups.com>
<ec7eaa15-cbd4-471d-be6c-0ea57c02cc49n@googlegroups.com>
<8b7ed193-3f26-473d-b2c7-47098a73ab95n@googlegroups.com>
<49a3c78d-542b-414a-a0fb-b686d4442af3n@googlegroups.com>
<87wni6wbvt.fsf@nightsong.com>
<0e59d9bd-2284-432d-ae39-6e5a8abaf83cn@googlegroups.com>
<de2e1247-51c5-42e1-9f4e-2d8c554de542n@googlegroups.com>
<su71h6$1flc$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<86ddf0bd-1364-457b-b8c0-bd2bdbf88f50n@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="58050"; posting-host="7AktqsUqy5CCvnKa3S0Dkw.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.6.0
Content-Language: en-GB
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
 by: dxforth - Mon, 14 Feb 2022 00:09 UTC

On 13/02/2022 22:23, Wayne morellini wrote:
>
> Years ago, I was developing the cutting edge operating system design. But operating systems began including many times more baggage than their own code, Flash was released free on the web (another market opportunity gone) and Bill Gates announced they spent 100 mam years on developing the newest windows. So, it was hopeless, the big boys had blotted out the space. I made the logical, positive, decision and ceased designing.

ISTM Gates made his fortune by facilitating more than designing. Other than BASIC
I don't know what he personally created or was involved with but he seems to have
had sufficient business prowess to know what clients were worth chasing and where
to source programmers.

Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true?

<64a414ba-070d-4337-9156-5a65b95565c0n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=16798&group=comp.lang.forth#16798

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:a47:: with SMTP id j7mr2158575qka.146.1644936051108;
Tue, 15 Feb 2022 06:40:51 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:4e41:: with SMTP id e1mr2873185qtw.369.1644936050972;
Tue, 15 Feb 2022 06:40:50 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.160.216.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2022 06:40:50 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <suc6js$1om2$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=49.197.131.24; posting-account=WyLDIgoAAAAL9-lKxDxWp0Afty5A1XnH
NNTP-Posting-Host: 49.197.131.24
References: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com>
<f0378790-d9e7-4e15-ab94-f3370f949266n@googlegroups.com> <c667671f-c944-438a-8afe-da695e6be843n@googlegroups.com>
<ec7eaa15-cbd4-471d-be6c-0ea57c02cc49n@googlegroups.com> <8b7ed193-3f26-473d-b2c7-47098a73ab95n@googlegroups.com>
<49a3c78d-542b-414a-a0fb-b686d4442af3n@googlegroups.com> <87wni6wbvt.fsf@nightsong.com>
<0e59d9bd-2284-432d-ae39-6e5a8abaf83cn@googlegroups.com> <de2e1247-51c5-42e1-9f4e-2d8c554de542n@googlegroups.com>
<su71h6$1flc$1@gioia.aioe.org> <86ddf0bd-1364-457b-b8c0-bd2bdbf88f50n@googlegroups.com>
<suc6js$1om2$1@gioia.aioe.org>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <64a414ba-070d-4337-9156-5a65b95565c0n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true?
From: waynemor...@gmail.com (Wayne morellini)
Injection-Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2022 14:40:51 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 by: Wayne morellini - Tue, 15 Feb 2022 14:40 UTC

On Monday, February 14, 2022 at 10:09:37 AM UTC+10, dxforth wrote:
> On 13/02/2022 22:23, Wayne morellini wrote:
> >
> > Years ago, I was developing the cutting edge operating system design. But operating systems began including many times more baggage than their own code, Flash was released free on the web (another market opportunity gone) and Bill Gates announced they spent 100 mam years on developing the newest windows. So, it was hopeless, the big boys had blotted out the space. I made the logical, positive, decision and ceased designing.
> ISTM Gates made his fortune by facilitating more than designing. Other than BASIC
> I don't know what he personally created or was involved with but he seems to have
> had sufficient business prowess to know what clients were worth chasing and where
> to source programmers.

Yet, even Microsoft normalised the error rate in Windows. Good design and hiring would have largely got rid of them. A lot of the Microsoft products were bought in. Bill did a version of Basic. He got interested in the financial side, I read, decades back.

But, the point was, that despite how negative the situation looked. The actions of others allowed other avenues to get the message out. I could have done a game watch, as a simple OS example, say (simple operating system target) and web plug in, expand out to a basic cross game development software system, and expand from there. By the time, I was pretty IP heavy, and wanted to quickly accelerate to developing my unique ray tracing occulling system in the third year of the OS. So, was looking at rapid expansion to be able to afford the development and IP costs (look at the latest Unreal Engine, to get an idea of where I was heading ultimately) and that of the rest of the system By the time I backed off and decided to do a dumbed down simple version of an gaming OS (the user manual interactive API interface of the old one, was enormous, mapping every bodily control segment spatially ad well as external controls. It could have gone to every muscle, full VR body control, which was the future, as well as the relative self organising GUI technology, which I backed off of any way as the calculations would have made it slower like a normal OS), I was getting sick from chemical poisoning and pathology etc. But. If you can see it. You have to design it, because you will eventually not be able to anymore. But, yes, it could have been recorded, while designing a simpler version. A lot of the big complex things, let the body mapping control data structures, you get a design team to figure out the details, as you can afford to.

So, your language, and misc, aren't dead, but still have opportunity to be made into something more. Negativity will crush that. The time for forth to contribute much, is drawing to a close, as the Ind story prepares to shift away.from standard processing, to new paradigms, that Forth had little place in.

Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true?

<suhi80$106r$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=16800&group=comp.lang.forth#16800

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!aioe.org!7AktqsUqy5CCvnKa3S0Dkw.user.46.165.242.75.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: dxfo...@gmail.com (dxforth)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true?
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 11:58:40 +1100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID: <suhi80$106r$1@gioia.aioe.org>
References: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com>
<f0378790-d9e7-4e15-ab94-f3370f949266n@googlegroups.com>
<c667671f-c944-438a-8afe-da695e6be843n@googlegroups.com>
<ec7eaa15-cbd4-471d-be6c-0ea57c02cc49n@googlegroups.com>
<8b7ed193-3f26-473d-b2c7-47098a73ab95n@googlegroups.com>
<49a3c78d-542b-414a-a0fb-b686d4442af3n@googlegroups.com>
<87wni6wbvt.fsf@nightsong.com>
<0e59d9bd-2284-432d-ae39-6e5a8abaf83cn@googlegroups.com>
<de2e1247-51c5-42e1-9f4e-2d8c554de542n@googlegroups.com>
<su71h6$1flc$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<86ddf0bd-1364-457b-b8c0-bd2bdbf88f50n@googlegroups.com>
<suc6js$1om2$1@gioia.aioe.org>
<64a414ba-070d-4337-9156-5a65b95565c0n@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Injection-Info: gioia.aioe.org; logging-data="32987"; posting-host="7AktqsUqy5CCvnKa3S0Dkw.user.gioia.aioe.org"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@aioe.org";
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101
Thunderbird/91.6.0
X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.9.2
Content-Language: en-GB
 by: dxforth - Wed, 16 Feb 2022 00:58 UTC

On 16/02/2022 01:40, Wayne morellini wrote:
> ...
> So, your language, and misc, aren't dead, but still have opportunity to be made into something more. Negativity will crush that. The time for forth to contribute much, is drawing to a close, as the Ind story prepares to shift away.from standard processing, to new paradigms, that Forth had little place in.

Negativity or pessimism is what happens when optimism fails to deliver. Unlike
creativity - which is insight - optimism is indulgence in dreaming about future
gains. It's fair to say there's been a lot of the latter in forth.

Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true?

<bcd7cbc7-7e06-4350-8f56-7d3f96410708n@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=16802&group=comp.lang.forth#16802

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:3546:b0:37d:1bcf:de2c with SMTP id i6-20020a05600c354600b0037d1bcfde2cmr2303239wmq.96.1645026802345;
Wed, 16 Feb 2022 07:53:22 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:ad4:4b66:0:b0:430:842c:1532 with SMTP id
m6-20020ad44b66000000b00430842c1532mr859204qvx.16.1645026801891; Wed, 16 Feb
2022 07:53:21 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.128.88.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 07:53:21 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <suhi80$106r$1@gioia.aioe.org>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=49.197.67.2; posting-account=WyLDIgoAAAAL9-lKxDxWp0Afty5A1XnH
NNTP-Posting-Host: 49.197.67.2
References: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com>
<f0378790-d9e7-4e15-ab94-f3370f949266n@googlegroups.com> <c667671f-c944-438a-8afe-da695e6be843n@googlegroups.com>
<ec7eaa15-cbd4-471d-be6c-0ea57c02cc49n@googlegroups.com> <8b7ed193-3f26-473d-b2c7-47098a73ab95n@googlegroups.com>
<49a3c78d-542b-414a-a0fb-b686d4442af3n@googlegroups.com> <87wni6wbvt.fsf@nightsong.com>
<0e59d9bd-2284-432d-ae39-6e5a8abaf83cn@googlegroups.com> <de2e1247-51c5-42e1-9f4e-2d8c554de542n@googlegroups.com>
<su71h6$1flc$1@gioia.aioe.org> <86ddf0bd-1364-457b-b8c0-bd2bdbf88f50n@googlegroups.com>
<suc6js$1om2$1@gioia.aioe.org> <64a414ba-070d-4337-9156-5a65b95565c0n@googlegroups.com>
<suhi80$106r$1@gioia.aioe.org>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <bcd7cbc7-7e06-4350-8f56-7d3f96410708n@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true?
From: waynemor...@gmail.com (Wayne morellini)
Injection-Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:53:22 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 by: Wayne morellini - Wed, 16 Feb 2022 15:53 UTC

On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 10:58:44 AM UTC+10, dxforth wrote:
> On 16/02/2022 01:40, Wayne morellini wrote:
> > ...
> > So, your language, and misc, aren't dead, but still have opportunity to be made into something more. Negativity will crush that. The time for forth to contribute much, is drawing to a close, as the Ind story prepares to shift away.from standard processing, to new paradigms, that Forth had little place in.
> Negativity or pessimism is what happens when optimism fails to deliver. Unlike
> creativity - which is insight - optimism is indulgence in dreaming about future
> gains. It's fair to say there's been a lot of the latter in forth.

Realities. I wouldn't say there has been too much correct dreaming of realistic things in forth, that's the issue. Three finger keyboard, bah, I've got a watch with a one finger keyboard, and it's an exponentially bigger pain (I'm being facetious). "Novel" idea, means you have an idea that is in the range where most ideas are not that practical. Everything that keeps me from misc, is such ideas. Right novel is good, less right novel, is not so good. Bad novel is bad, which includes people that can't discern good novel.. one has to go past these people, in particular, and move to the correct. That's how reality works, but that is only the start. Delivering something which can be sold, or supported, is another thing.

I'll illustrate a historical example. In the early days of Apple, I heard, Steve Wozniak wasn't interested in basic or something, but instead was working on an easier way to do assembler, because that is what the computer club enthusiasts were interested in. If Steve Wozniak had got his way, maybe we could have had 100,000 such programmers world wide, instead of 100,000,000. I'm rather tired, so please forgive the quality of writing here. What your small group thinks, doesn't matter that much, compared to what works.. Here, we have people pushing novel ideas as a norm, that normal people don't support. They actually expect normal people to confirm and learn to program in those novel ideas. Forget it. We. An do the best for others with efficiency. Because, of we look at colorforth as a machine forth, we are sort of getting what Steve Wozniak was on about. On the other side of the coin, some novel ideas are so much better and efficient, it is worth supporting. Implementing for low machine code focused programmers, then going up for services and apps, then going up to scripting. However many levels that are practical to give you good results with those users. In my own language ambition the same language spanned all, but at each level human coding error would add more inefficiency, till you get to website scripting. But, the underlying structures minimised the efficiency hit of the scripting. The language would be prescriptive, but expandable, to lead to maximum efficiency in all those expanded words. Now Pad Al was invented, and it's inventor did some more remarkable stuff, then he did Python, is that right? Pascal has died back, but Python has been a raging success. Chuck has done Colorforth and other things, but did not do his Python, to replace Forth. I don't expect him to do it now. Such things often require an agile younger mind, over experience. I'm younger and it's beyond me, except I was already drafting such a thing with a machine code like virtual is as it's environment. So, some stuff, and stuff is still in there, to be traded out. It was even going have post fixed ability at the compiler level, but with only certain ways of programming delivering best performance. Simple, almost basic like level of understandability. At least that is what I'm thinking now in my old age it was going be a hard and fast lesson in programming and the instruction set and API interface description in a hundred or so pages. Would have been something. Does it mean it's bad? No! Just the opposite, unrealised correct potential. Which means it's still worth doing , but commercially less so, but such systems will still be desirable along side new paradigms.
..

Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true?

<45b9018a-2fff-40ff-aeba-5946d273bf2an@googlegroups.com>

 copy mid

https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=16869&group=comp.lang.forth#16869

 copy link   Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:4f08:b0:37b:e830:d231 with SMTP id l8-20020a05600c4f0800b0037be830d231mr3286884wmq.144.1645534820758;
Tue, 22 Feb 2022 05:00:20 -0800 (PST)
X-Received: by 2002:ac8:5853:0:b0:2d6:8a16:753c with SMTP id
h19-20020ac85853000000b002d68a16753cmr22146044qth.401.1645534820213; Tue, 22
Feb 2022 05:00:20 -0800 (PST)
Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!209.85.128.87.MISMATCH!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 05:00:20 -0800 (PST)
In-Reply-To: <bcd7cbc7-7e06-4350-8f56-7d3f96410708n@googlegroups.com>
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=85.210.155.220; posting-account=eAOrwQkAAABheFES5y-02sBOFdTlBRio
NNTP-Posting-Host: 85.210.155.220
References: <d3d672f7-e230-4d87-ac11-424d68e92092n@googlegroups.com>
<f0378790-d9e7-4e15-ab94-f3370f949266n@googlegroups.com> <c667671f-c944-438a-8afe-da695e6be843n@googlegroups.com>
<ec7eaa15-cbd4-471d-be6c-0ea57c02cc49n@googlegroups.com> <8b7ed193-3f26-473d-b2c7-47098a73ab95n@googlegroups.com>
<49a3c78d-542b-414a-a0fb-b686d4442af3n@googlegroups.com> <87wni6wbvt.fsf@nightsong.com>
<0e59d9bd-2284-432d-ae39-6e5a8abaf83cn@googlegroups.com> <de2e1247-51c5-42e1-9f4e-2d8c554de542n@googlegroups.com>
<su71h6$1flc$1@gioia.aioe.org> <86ddf0bd-1364-457b-b8c0-bd2bdbf88f50n@googlegroups.com>
<suc6js$1om2$1@gioia.aioe.org> <64a414ba-070d-4337-9156-5a65b95565c0n@googlegroups.com>
<suhi80$106r$1@gioia.aioe.org> <bcd7cbc7-7e06-4350-8f56-7d3f96410708n@googlegroups.com>
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <45b9018a-2fff-40ff-aeba-5946d273bf2an@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Comp.lang.forh banned on google, is it true?
From: jpita...@gmail.com (Jurgen Pitaske)
Injection-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 13:00:20 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 by: Jurgen Pitaske - Tue, 22 Feb 2022 13:00 UTC

On Wednesday, 16 February 2022 at 15:53:24 UTC, Wayne morellini wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 10:58:44 AM UTC+10, dxforth wrote:
> > On 16/02/2022 01:40, Wayne morellini wrote:
> > > ...
> > > So, your language, and misc, aren't dead, but still have opportunity to be made into something more. Negativity will crush that. The time for forth to contribute much, is drawing to a close, as the Ind story prepares to shift away.from standard processing, to new paradigms, that Forth had little place in.
> > Negativity or pessimism is what happens when optimism fails to deliver. Unlike
> > creativity - which is insight - optimism is indulgence in dreaming about future
> > gains. It's fair to say there's been a lot of the latter in forth.
> Realities. I wouldn't say there has been too much correct dreaming of realistic things in forth, that's the issue. Three finger keyboard, bah, I've got a watch with a one finger keyboard, and it's an exponentially bigger pain (I'm being facetious). "Novel" idea, means you have an idea that is in the range where most ideas are not that practical. Everything that keeps me from misc, is such ideas. Right novel is good, less right novel, is not so good. Bad novel is bad, which includes people that can't discern good novel... one has to go past these people, in particular, and move to the correct. That's how reality works, but that is only the start. Delivering something which can be sold, or supported, is another thing.
>
> I'll illustrate a historical example. In the early days of Apple, I heard, Steve Wozniak wasn't interested in basic or something, but instead was working on an easier way to do assembler, because that is what the computer club enthusiasts were interested in. If Steve Wozniak had got his way, maybe we could have had 100,000 such programmers world wide, instead of 100,000,000. I'm rather tired, so please forgive the quality of writing here. What your small group thinks, doesn't matter that much, compared to what works. Here, we have people pushing novel ideas as a norm, that normal people don't support. They actually expect normal people to confirm and learn to program in those novel ideas. Forget it. We. An do the best for others with efficiency. Because, of we look at colorforth as a machine forth, we are sort of getting what Steve Wozniak was on about. On the other side of the coin, some novel ideas are so much better and efficient, it is worth supporting. Implementing for low machine code focused programmers, then going up for services and apps, then going up to scripting. However many levels that are practical to give you good results with those users. In my own language ambition the same language spanned all, but at each level human coding error would add more inefficiency, till you get to website scripting. But, the underlying structures minimised the efficiency hit of the scripting. The language would be prescriptive, but expandable, to lead to maximum efficiency in all those expanded words. Now Pad Al was invented, and it's inventor did some more remarkable stuff, then he did Python, is that right? Pascal has died back, but Python has been a raging success. Chuck has done Colorforth and other things, but did not do his Python, to replace Forth. I don't expect him to do it now. Such things often require an agile younger mind, over experience. I'm younger and it's beyond me, except I was already drafting such a thing with a machine code like virtual is as it's environment. So, some stuff, and stuff is still in there, to be traded out. It was even going have post fixed ability at the compiler level, but with only certain ways of programming delivering best performance. Simple, almost basic like level of understandability. At least that is what I'm thinking now in my old age it was going be a hard and fast lesson in programming and the instruction set and API interface description in a hundred or so pages. Would have been something. Does it mean it's bad? No! Just the opposite, unrealised correct potential. Which means it's still worth doing , but commercially less so, but such systems will still be desirable along side new paradigms.
> .

Today arrived the pre-programmed MAX1000 FPGA Board :
The Word List as printed out via Teraterm today:

words
cold quit while repeat aft until again begin next for else then
if ; : ." abort" $" .( \ ( constant variable create , .s ' dump
dm+ words @execute word cmove [ ] number? rot ?dup +! query
accept bl tib u.r .r spaces within min max decimal hex ? . abs
u. #> sign #s # hold > < / fill d+ */ */mod mod /mod m/mod m* *
um/mod um* 2drop u< - dnegate negate not 2dup <# pad here dp
base allot char count type + = space cr 2* 2/ 1- 1+ um+ xor or
and 0= 0< depth pick over swap dup drop >r r@ r> c@ c! @ ! ?key
key emit exit execute ok

Now I can go back to MSP430 Board eForth book and have a read and try out the examples.
https://wiki.forth-ev.de/doku.php/en:projects:430eforth:start

Pages:1234
server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor