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devel / comp.lang.forth / Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for prototyping end product designs?

SubjectAuthor
* Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for prototypingWayne morellini
+* Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for prototyping end prPaul Rubin
|`* Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up forWayne morellini
| `- Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up forRick C
`* Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up forMark Wills
 +- Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up forRick C
 `* Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up forWayne morellini
  `* Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for prototyping end prPaul Rubin
   +* Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up forRick C
   |+- Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up forWayne morellini
   |+* Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for prototyping end prPaul Rubin
   ||`- Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up forWayne morellini
   |`* Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up fordxforth
   | `- Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up forRick C
   `* Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up forWayne morellini
    `- Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up forS Jack

1
Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for prototyping end product designs?

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Subject: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for prototyping
end product designs?
From: waynemor...@gmail.com (Wayne morellini)
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 by: Wayne morellini - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 03:39 UTC

Hi, very simple. There are many arduino like systems out there but are any setup so you can prototype consumer electronics hardware through modules, and then order a PCB, and or silicon version of that design. So, rapid prototyping with coding, then transfer over to the last prototype of manufacturing prototype.

I've never used arduino, because there is not much you can develop with it that would for factor and cost reduce to what a normal consumer would buy. The mobile industry has developed many state of the art interfaces, which I have never seen on these embedded systems interfaces, and they developed a suitable modular system that went no where.

I wished to do a system myself, that plugged into a bread board like system with dynamically set interfacing.

Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for prototyping end product designs?

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Subject: Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for prototyping end product designs?
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2022 20:27:39 -0800
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 by: Paul Rubin - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 04:27 UTC

Wayne morellini <waynemorellini@gmail.com> writes:
> Hi, very simple. There are many arduino like systems out there but are
> any setup so you can prototype consumer electronics hardware through
> modules, and then order a PCB, and or silicon version of that design.

The deal with PCB's is they still have to be designed by humans, as far
as I can tell, though the tools for it are available. You have to know
something about hardware, and to debug a PCB you need test equipment and
stuff.

Plugging modules into a development board to make a prototype works
nicely, especially if modules already exist that do what you want.

If you have any interesting idea and can prototype it, then you can work
with a more serious hardware person afterwards. I think I'm at about
the level where I could do that in principle. I can plug stuff together
but am not that clueful about designing for manufacture.

This book is good, and there is a free download:
http://www.designingelectronics.com/

It is not so much about electronics, but about making your stuff
manufactureable and reliable.

For actual electronics I still don't know anything better than Horowitz
and Hill's classic "The Art of Electronics", now in 3rd edition.

> I wished to do a system myself, that plugged into a bread board like
> system with dynamically set interfacing.

If you have a concrete idea of what you want to build, people here will
probably have some useful advice.

Arduino is still a thing. Its software API is ok and it runs on lots of
CPUs now. The original Arduino boards with Atmega parts are by now
relatively obsolete.

If you want a basic MCU board to fool around with and run Forth, there
was just a post about running Mecrisp on the Raspberry Pi Pico. That is
a 4 dollar board with comparatively speaking a lot of compute resources
on it.

Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for prototyping end product designs?

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Subject: Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for
prototyping end product designs?
From: waynemor...@gmail.com (Wayne morellini)
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 by: Wayne morellini - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 09:12 UTC

Paul. I thank you for your great positive reply.

On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 2:27:42 PM UTC+10, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Wayne morellini <waynemo...@gmail.com> writes:
> > Hi, very simple. There are many arduino like systems out there but are
> > any setup so you can prototype consumer electronics hardware through
> > modules, and then order a PCB, and or silicon version of that design.
> The deal with PCB's is they still have to be designed by humans, as far
> as I can tell, though the tools for it are available. You have to know
> something about hardware, and to debug a PCB you need test equipment and
> stuff.

Pretty much what I am saying could be a worked out circuit diagram database for modules, and circuits, sort of like cells in ASIC design, could be used to tile a circuit and route between the tiles (sounds like something GA's silicon school could use). Of course it's not going be as compact as a custom circuit board, but very usable for intro products.

The manufacturer's prototype, is more to do about the manufacturing process, as you say. But, here, you have a working design that could be manufactured as is, or tweaked and changed to manufacture. If you sell the design, then they arrange a manufacturing prototype. If you seel a 100,000 yourself you could get that done. If you sell 1-10,000 you would use the original prototype. But for small business, software could handle everything as the prototype, and it be sent off to be manufactured.

> Plugging modules into a development board to make a prototype works
> nicely, especially if modules already exist that do what you want.
>
> If you have any interesting idea and can prototype it, then you can work
> with a more serious hardware person afterwards. I think I'm at about
> the level where I could do that in principle. I can plug stuff together
> but am not that clueful about designing for manufacture.

I don't know of any serious person here except Stephen and Elisabeth, and I don't think either do hardware. There is certainly a lot of things that can be done, but to have the market to yourself requires a lead, and that's many millions technology wise. I've known people to come along with $100 million in their bank, and that simply wasn't enough. Unless you got a billion, it's not really something you can do much unless you lead in for rather than trying to develop leading new technology. Leads in firm these days, tend to be nick nacks, which aren't that profitable. Fashion lead is the other area, but $10 nick nacks can have fashion like top end items, so it doesn't have the impact it used to. I mean my mini forth notebook computer design idea in 1988 was simple sleek, with a single red carry shoulder band, or matching width. Very appealing then, would still be somewhat today, but things have passed us on

>
> This book is good, and there is a free download:
> http://www.designingelectronics.com/

I suspect I had that one in the 1990's, but got too sick to read it.

> It is not so much about electronics, but about making your stuff
> manufactureable and reliable.

:)

>
> For actual electronics I still don't know anything better than Horowitz
> and Hill's classic "The Art of Electronics", now in 3rd edition.
> > I wished to do a system myself, that plugged into a bread board like
> > system with dynamically set interfacing.
> If you have a concrete idea of what you want to build, people here will
> probably have some useful advice.

Years ago I had ideas for using radio interconnects through the board (or between components directly) but since, somebody else has done it. It's all a lot of custom silicon and circuits, so it costs. I can identify the mechanistic approach. I have an alternative to the radio idea, but require special custom circuitry. The one above is more complex, but simpler to develop

I think, where we are conned, is a lack of new common simple interfaces, to replace rs232 and parallel, and we haven't implemented the mobile interfaces as PCB and module strategies. We get left with latest USB, as a thing , and latest pcie. One thing, I want to promote, is replacement of many interfaces with a one pin optical interface. Years ago, I contemplated RCA plugs, and with optical cores. Your RCA plug could then do hundreds of years bits through the latest optical routing technologies. :). Insane sounding, but that attracts people. But, you could have started with the spdif standard, handshake down to the highest practical common speed, and just plug different additions of cable on devices together, as you upgrade what can be done. You make a optical plus power version of the cable. But, it gets even more basic than that, a long narrow connection to go into a matchstick sized socket, like 3.5mm studio jack, but an optical end with sections for power. Much harder to stand on laying on floor, and break it, big insertion life. But breaking it, you can cut the end easily and reinsert it, or attach another connector. Stuff you can't do with normal optical. But heard another thing, optical rubber is a potential, with a coating to allow it to work with linking. Optical rubber is an alternative to optical fibre. Now, back in the 1980:s you could be a cost benefit to using the rubber in a RCA like thick cable alongside power. I'm think of introducing something like that. I do have the most interesting data transmission idea, with over 80 thousand trillion bits per second per mm, from my estimates. This is enough to splice everybody on the planet on one single mm cable with over 80Mb/s each. Of you haven't heard this before,bits probably because it hadn't been thought of. But, at last, I didn't study advanced physics and the other disciplines to implement this. I'm not like the others around here, sitting down criticising without coming up with any new options, I actually spend time intensely think about designs like this. Though, this afternoon, I nearly momentarily blanked out, when Inadvertently an idea for a new ultra sensitive motion tracking design came into.my head. I had walked past done Fitbit sports bands and though the tinny main section would be good on its own, but how to carry, I though with keys (or bracelet) but then thought how to release at track the general movement through the chaotic movement of being jiggled around jogging. I had previously though through a non chaotic design, but then bang this nice design came through. Most unusual, because before it used to be a much more measured process. It actually relates to one of my first motion tracking design proposal from decades ago, for space craft tracking when there is no detectable reference points, but this is different. That one still would track extremely well.

Now, the US government has been trying to develop a jump drive, it turns out recently, which I've also been looking at for decades. Some of my science fiction stories have a plot mechanism, where the ship has jumped so far out of the universe (over 100 trillion light years) to a place, if they loose completely accurate tracking, they may never be able to locate the universe in their life time, as a tiny fraction is all it takes to miss it, and still be outside the visible universe. It's not as bad as that, as there is a way to do a narrowing search, and in real life, we don't know if the universe goes on past that. But it is a similar fashion to the solution in the under house transport machine, where they accidentally go to an identical universe without sufficient tracking ability enabled, and can't find there way back, until they are advised by others who have some pretty interesting time mechanics theory. But most of those details are post to me know, but one of the principles is pretty interesting take on what might be possible.

Another example is the "Tic Tac" patent. I do don't bother reading it, as I wasn't well, but it appears to be an advanced passive form of my active design proposal, which uses a fraction of the energy of other proposals. I abandoned it because it was so potentially risky. But, the Tic Tac is using a more sturdy layered nano structured circuit form, which I had been suspect of in some sample artefacts which not turning up clues under normal examination. It all comes back to basics principles of how physics works, rather than the formula that describes them. While you don't need to understand the formulate to understand the mechanisms, you need to understand the formulas to work them out. But, that technology, is very cool technology before a jump drive. They can literally dominate industry for 20-50+ years, if it's practically efficient to use for work and transport.

Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for prototyping end product designs?

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Subject: Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for
prototyping end product designs?
From: markwill...@gmail.com (Mark Wills)
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 by: Mark Wills - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 11:56 UTC

On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 3:39:14 AM UTC, Wayne morellini wrote:
> Hi, very simple. There are many arduino like systems out there but are any setup so you can prototype consumer electronics hardware through modules, and then order a PCB, and or silicon version of that design. So, rapid prototyping with coding, then transfer over to the last prototype of manufacturing prototype.
>
> I've never used arduino, because there is not much you can develop with it that would for factor and cost reduce to what a normal consumer would buy.. The mobile industry has developed many state of the art interfaces, which I have never seen on these embedded systems interfaces, and they developed a suitable modular system that went no where.
>
> I wished to do a system myself, that plugged into a bread board like system with dynamically set interfacing.

Define "normal consumer".

I'm actively (successfully) selling an embedded product based on Arduino technology. Not the ATMEGA328P, but the newer generation ATTINY441. It doesn't run Forth, it's 100 lines of C code, but the consumer doesn't know or care about that. The Arduino suite of products (well, really it's the Atmel ATMEGA line of products) is perfectly suitable for consumer use; literally millions have been sold - and not just as Arduinos - the ATMEGA line was around way before the Arduino.

Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for prototyping end product designs?

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Subject: Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for
prototyping end product designs?
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 12:21 UTC

On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 4:12:38 AM UTC-5, Wayne morellini wrote:
> Paul. I thank you for your great positive reply.
> On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 2:27:42 PM UTC+10, Paul Rubin wrote:
> > Wayne morellini <waynemo...@gmail.com> writes:
> > > Hi, very simple. There are many arduino like systems out there but are
> > > any setup so you can prototype consumer electronics hardware through
> > > modules, and then order a PCB, and or silicon version of that design.
> > The deal with PCB's is they still have to be designed by humans, as far
> > as I can tell, though the tools for it are available. You have to know
> > something about hardware, and to debug a PCB you need test equipment and
> > stuff.
> Pretty much what I am saying could be a worked out circuit diagram database for modules, and circuits, sort of like cells in ASIC design, could be used to tile a circuit and route between the tiles (sounds like something GA's silicon school could use). Of course it's not going be as compact as a custom circuit board, but very usable for intro products.

Yes, that is possible, but obviously, since no one has done this very simple task, it must not be worthwhile to many, or even any.

> The manufacturer's prototype, is more to do about the manufacturing process, as you say. But, here, you have a working design that could be manufactured as is, or tweaked and changed to manufacture. If you sell the design, then they arrange a manufacturing prototype. If you seel a 100,000 yourself you could get that done. If you sell 1-10,000 you would use the original prototype. But for small business, software could handle everything as the prototype, and it be sent off to be manufactured.

In years gone by, having a PCB made was more expensive (relatively). But these days the cost of PCB prototypes is not so large. There are places that will manufacture designs, priced by the square inch. There are also companies that stock various components and will make the board and assemble your product if you use parts from their libraries. All very affordable.

So for the professional and the amateur alike, making prototype circuits is mostly about the time spent designing them, not the actual process of having them built. The process of PCB layout it typically not so hard, so you are left with the design of the circuit and the software. Typically the software is the harder of those two, unless you are designing something with specific requirements from the hardware that takes some significant design work. Slapping an MCU and some basic analog on a board is pretty simple these day. Designing an AC power meter with 1% accuracy is not. Software is always a crap shoot as to whether it is complex or simple.

> > Plugging modules into a development board to make a prototype works
> > nicely, especially if modules already exist that do what you want.
> >
> > If you have any interesting idea and can prototype it, then you can work
> > with a more serious hardware person afterwards. I think I'm at about
> > the level where I could do that in principle. I can plug stuff together
> > but am not that clueful about designing for manufacture.
> I don't know of any serious person here except Stephen and Elisabeth, and I don't think either do hardware. There is certainly a lot of things that can be done, but to have the market to yourself requires a lead, and that's many millions technology wise. I've known people to come along with $100 million in their bank, and that simply wasn't enough. Unless you got a billion, it's not really something you can do much unless you lead in for rather than trying to develop leading new technology. Leads in firm these days, tend to be nick nacks, which aren't that profitable. Fashion lead is the other area, but $10 nick nacks can have fashion like top end items, so it doesn't have the impact it used to. I mean my mini forth notebook computer design idea in 1988 was simple sleek, with a single red carry shoulder band, or matching width. Very appealing then, would still be somewhat today, but things have passed us on

That's rather funny that you think so few people here do design work.

> > This book is good, and there is a free download:
> > http://www.designingelectronics.com/
> I suspect I had that one in the 1990's, but got too sick to read it.
> > It is not so much about electronics, but about making your stuff
> > manufactureable and reliable.
> :)
> >
> > For actual electronics I still don't know anything better than Horowitz
> > and Hill's classic "The Art of Electronics", now in 3rd edition.
> > > I wished to do a system myself, that plugged into a bread board like
> > > system with dynamically set interfacing.
> > If you have a concrete idea of what you want to build, people here will
> > probably have some useful advice.
> Years ago I had ideas for using radio interconnects through the board (or between components directly) but since, somebody else has done it. It's all a lot of custom silicon and circuits, so it costs. I can identify the mechanistic approach. I have an alternative to the radio idea, but require special custom circuitry. The one above is more complex, but simpler to develop

I think the point is that "radio" interconnects offer very little advantage over traces. In particular, most electronic designs require a lot of effort so the wires *do not* radiate. There are standards for emissions which cause problems with authorized radio transmissions. Traces work just fine and are so inexpensive they can be ignored in any cost considerations.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for prototyping end product designs?

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Subject: Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for
prototyping end product designs?
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 12:41 UTC

On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 6:56:53 AM UTC-5, Mark Wills wrote:
> On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 3:39:14 AM UTC, Wayne morellini wrote:
> > Hi, very simple. There are many arduino like systems out there but are any setup so you can prototype consumer electronics hardware through modules, and then order a PCB, and or silicon version of that design. So, rapid prototyping with coding, then transfer over to the last prototype of manufacturing prototype.
> >
> > I've never used arduino, because there is not much you can develop with it that would for factor and cost reduce to what a normal consumer would buy. The mobile industry has developed many state of the art interfaces, which I have never seen on these embedded systems interfaces, and they developed a suitable modular system that went no where.
> >
> > I wished to do a system myself, that plugged into a bread board like system with dynamically set interfacing.
> Define "normal consumer".
>
> I'm actively (successfully) selling an embedded product based on Arduino technology. Not the ATMEGA328P, but the newer generation ATTINY441. It doesn't run Forth, it's 100 lines of C code, but the consumer doesn't know or care about that. The Arduino suite of products (well, really it's the Atmel ATMEGA line of products) is perfectly suitable for consumer use; literally millions have been sold - and not just as Arduinos - the ATMEGA line was around way before the Arduino.

This is taking me back. Before Atmel was absorbed into Microchip, they had made numerous chip products, including FPGAs with embedded CPUs (which were not AT anything). Atmel FPGAs never really took off. It's a field where you have to be serious and commit a bunch of money, whether you are making profit or not. Otherwise you fall behind in the process technology and failure becomes a self fulfilling prophesy. That almost happened to AMD, when they fell a full year behind Intel in semiconductor fab technology. They could see the handwriting on the wall, so they jettisoned their fabs and switched over to the Taiwanese foundry companies for their CPU chips. Now it is Intel who has fallen behind in process technology and will be switching over to third party fabs. Now THAT'S amazing!

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for prototyping end product designs?

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Subject: Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for
prototyping end product designs?
From: waynemor...@gmail.com (Wayne morellini)
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 by: Wayne morellini - Fri, 11 Mar 2022 16:34 UTC

On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 9:56:53 PM UTC+10, Mark Wills wrote:
> On Friday, March 11, 2022 at 3:39:14 AM UTC, Wayne morellini wrote:
> > Hi, very simple. There are many arduino like systems out there but are any setup so you can prototype consumer electronics hardware through modules, and then order a PCB, and or silicon version of that design. So, rapid prototyping with coding, then transfer over to the last prototype of manufacturing prototype.
> >
> > I've never used arduino, because there is not much you can develop with it that would for factor and cost reduce to what a normal consumer would buy. The mobile industry has developed many state of the art interfaces, which I have never seen on these embedded systems interfaces, and they developed a suitable modular system that went no where.
> >
> > I wished to do a system myself, that plugged into a bread board like system with dynamically set interfacing.
> Define "normal consumer".
>
> I'm actively (successfully) selling an embedded product based on Arduino technology. Not the ATMEGA328P, but the newer generation ATTINY441. It doesn't run Forth, it's 100 lines of C code, but the consumer doesn't know or care about that. The Arduino suite of products (well, really it's the Atmel ATMEGA line of products) is perfectly suitable for consumer use; literally millions have been sold - and not just as Arduinos - the ATMEGA line was around way before the Arduino.

Guys. I should have said portable, compact and sophisticated.

I doubt there will be many cheap services for that. However, unlike what Rick is saying, I'm seeking better, easier. The plug and play notion of the bread board like like system, is as an easy compact alternative to Arduino like systems, you could virtual fit a thousand little severs on it. Make a watch out of it with 64 chips and retain a low form factor. The radio thing is another simpler thing again, define what talks to what in registers. All the routing stuff of GA, disappears, directly Many to Many with waits, like GA, you just organise how to administer it. It's cheaper, than the bread board like scheme, unless you want to pulse the back plane, but that limits the data throughput a lot. As usual I'm not revealing every design. But, as you can see, each thing has it's place, and even a board assembly process. I ask about that module based circuit design, because such things require legal release of rights to use as open hardware, and an organised effort, and to produce the PCB/cell versions. It pretty much works as Rick says, once the software gives you the desired solution, you send it off to be manufactured. You could do it in house, but a pick in place (there was an open hardware design I haven't looked into) might be alright for prototyping, or single manufacture, but the case for it gets less. But I was thinking of manufacturing phone cases with some switches etc, so it would be useful then. But the A0/A1 printer project fie crown funding had a secret addition, to do large format high speed thinking, and E entislly.picl a d place is possible. It's very sophisticated, but we are talking maybe hundreds of cases a second, at least, and maybe even circuit components (there is already options for that, but not of normal quality). But every material you add to the printer system adds bulk, so an enormous very strong table (or cement slab) is needed, if it had a designed that way. I'll have to think about the feed structure, most of the bulk can be moved off the printer but that's still a lot of bulk and routing to handle when a lot of materials are used, but better than the HP options. I've also tried to work out a dynamic flow molding mechanism, but don't remember where I got up to with that before the brain damage got too much. It's a problem with sophisticated shapes, where the printer might be better. However, just because it might be possible to do this at high speed, it doesn't mean that defects and clog heads won't most likely, make it impractical. That's something that has to be worked out. It's possible to make a simple golf buggy like car body with the molding technique, but that's a very simple open design. The printer is more like what they more recently call a dynamic 3D mold technique. So, maybe I don't need to bother, something else will come. However, the way resin printers work, allows for an enormous scope in resolution. I think there is extra bright 5 micron nano led technology out there. That's a good resolution, just beyond visual reading distance range and smoother. It probably won't matter if such a panel costs thousands to people. If you can print large volume, and can use contact foundry like printing or ebeam etc (that s os only theoretical, but should be within range).

I'm looking into advancing the optical processing technology eventually, using a number of optical schemes I came up with for displays etc. Which is a better solution, than the above alternatives. I'll be happy to get rid of the alternatives to anybody rich enough. The optical scheme upgrades will be costly, and I don't know enough about the science to be certain of the how to get it done yet.

Currently, I'm looking at getting a cheap 3D printer and a 5 feed print head I've found (4 colour plus support) to do up some more mechanical design. But, it's low priority, as there is other things happening, and have just finished a second large magnetic pulser device, which might be suitable for commercialisation, when I get better performance.

Thanks.

Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for prototyping end product designs?

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From: no.em...@nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
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Subject: Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for prototyping end product designs?
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 01:31:37 -0800
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 by: Paul Rubin - Sat, 12 Mar 2022 09:31 UTC

Wayne morellini <waynemorellini@gmail.com> writes:
> are talking maybe hundreds of cases a second, at least,... But every
> material you add to the printer system adds bulk....

This is not what most of us think of as micro embedded development
systems. You're trying to do something huge and expensive that is
likely to need lots of people and funding involved. Maybe you could
start with something smaller. Some time back I made a morse code
oscillator, an LED blinker, that sort of thing. Those are easy to do
with microprocessors and are well suited for programming in Forth.

WHen I think of embedded micro development, think of e.g.:

1) buy a small dev board (ESP32 based, perhaps) and a few other parts,
like let's say a temperature and humidity sensor, and a small display.

2) plug everything together and write a little bit of code, so now you
have a gizmo that shows and logs the temperature and uploads it to a
computer by wifi. Before 3d printing, people traditionally used Altoids
tins as enclosures for these kinds of things. Inside the tin, there are
a couple different boards and some batteries wired together, nice as a
personal DIY thing but not really a product. This is your prototype.
You have spent maybe $20-$40 on the parts.

3) Now if you want to "productize" it, you design a PCB or work with
someone who does that, get sample boards, test and debug them, get
production boards made and assembled, etc. That book I linked earlier
has advice about that. You cannot have read it 20 years ago since it
came out last year or so. If you remember Steve Ciarcia's Circuit
Cellar columns, it's along the same lines, but more modern. Your $$
investment is now maybe in the low thousands, but not millions or
anything like that. On the other hand, you have made a fairly simple
gizmo.

You can now sell it on places like Tindie.com. If you look on that
site, you can see all kinds of stuff that people have made and offered.
You are unlikely to become a billionaire oligarch (this week's buzzword)
that way, but you can have some fun and make a few bucks.

If you're trying to become an oligarch, that's a much more complex task
and I don't think anyone here has really figured out how to do it ;-).

Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for prototyping end product designs?

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Subject: Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for
prototyping end product designs?
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Sat, 12 Mar 2022 17:21 UTC

On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:31:43 AM UTC-5, Paul Rubin wrote:
>
> You can now sell it on places like Tindie.com. If you look on that
> site, you can see all kinds of stuff that people have made and offered.
> You are unlikely to become a billionaire oligarch (this week's buzzword)
> that way, but you can have some fun and make a few bucks.

"Few" is the appropriate measure. Typically not worth the effort. What I've wanted to find is a way to tap into the market where a Chinese company makes my product and other companies sell it on eBay or similar sites, paying me a royalty. But there's no way to assure you don't get ripped off, not just from other vendors cloning the product, but by the vendors who simply don't pay the royalty. I really don't want to have anything to do with the order fulfillment aspect. I want to design and perhaps promote, and even manufacture, but not take orders or ship product. I've never found a means of doing that where it doesn't involve getting ripped off.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for prototyping end product designs?

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Subject: Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for
prototyping end product designs?
From: waynemor...@gmail.com (Wayne morellini)
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 by: Wayne morellini - Sat, 12 Mar 2022 19:50 UTC

On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 3:21:08 AM UTC+10, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:31:43 AM UTC-5, Paul Rubin wrote:
> >
> > You can now sell it on places like Tindie.com. If you look on that
> > site, you can see all kinds of stuff that people have made and offered.
> > You are unlikely to become a billionaire oligarch (this week's buzzword)
> > that way, but you can have some fun and make a few bucks.
> "Few" is the appropriate measure. Typically not worth the effort. What I've wanted to find is a way to tap into the market where a Chinese company makes my product and other companies sell it on eBay or similar sites, paying me a royalty. But there's no way to assure you don't get ripped off, not just from other vendors cloning the product, but by the vendors who simply don't pay the royalty. I really don't want to have anything to do with the order fulfillment aspect. I want to design and perhaps promote, and even manufacture, but not take orders or ship product. I've never found a means of doing that where it doesn't involve getting ripped off.
>
> --
>
> Rick C.
>
> -- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
> -- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

Rick. Amazon had some funding and manufacture scheme set up. But the products tend to be expensive. There was a a distinct problem of not paying royalties. In DVD players, they would just pay a cheap totality of 10,000 units, but manufacturer many times more, how you going prove it. That's why I was going get to the point of ordering a custom chip from you know who, release reference designs dependent on the chip, and if they wanted to use the reference designs or software, they have to order the chip from the US, where each one is accounted for and paid So, the reference design and software lice we use is factored into the chip price. So, you should be nicer to them. You could sit back and watch the orders for chips to use your reference design come in, knowing that they are going have to reverse engineer the chip to replicate it or use the custom reference design or software. I probably would use easter eggs too, hidden undocumented features to be revealed, so that a look a like will fail with the latest code, making manufacturers nervous about trying to reverse engineer the functionality. This forces them further away from your product, unless it is a closed product. With me, OS, open computing functionality, requires continuing compatibility, so one can be Microsoft to them.

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Subject: Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for
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From: waynemor...@gmail.com (Wayne morellini)
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 by: Wayne morellini - Sat, 12 Mar 2022 20:28 UTC

On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 7:31:43 PM UTC+10, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Wayne morellini <waynemo...@gmail.com> writes:
> > are talking maybe hundreds of cases a second, at least,... But every
> > material you add to the printer system adds bulk....
>
> This is not what most of us think of as micro embedded development
> systems. You're trying to do something huge and expensive that is
> likely to need lots of people and funding involved. Maybe you could
> start with something smaller.
...

I'm not talking about using such a system as a normal embedded system, but as a rapid CE development system, that is cheap and simpler. It's an opportunity this space should use, and the Chinese would love. It's the amount of autonomy you get. A rapid cheap 3D printer also gives autonomy. I could maybe sell 100,000 custom phone cases for $100, printing hundreds at a time. It's a little bit more complex than the morse code thing, but not much..

I am talking about doing smaller.things, but about other past plans to, not small. Like the printer, crowdfunded, conventional technology, new design. Once it sells, turn you use the income to develop the 3D feature, and with the money from that high speed 3D mechanism. So, three to five years on market to get to large volume high speed 3D. The sales of the initial printer could be over 1 million, as there is absolutely nothing to compete with it, and it has a range of uses, and professional use. It's a step by step process to bigger things, as with any business venture. But anyway. I'm looking at smaller things than that.

Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for prototyping end product designs?

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From: no.em...@nospam.invalid (Paul Rubin)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for prototyping end product designs?
Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2022 15:10:20 -0800
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 by: Paul Rubin - Sat, 12 Mar 2022 23:10 UTC

Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> writes:
> What I've wanted to find is a way to tap into the market where a
> Chinese company makes my product and other companies sell it on eBay
> or similar sites, paying me a royalty. But there's no way to assure
> you don't get ripped off, not just from other vendors cloning the
> product, but by the vendors who simply don't pay the royalty.

Quite true. You might get some temporary relief if your product does
something hard to re-implement and you ship it in code protected chips.
Right now, speech recognition is an area where some small developers
seem to be ahead of the game (medium.com/picovoice). I can imagine
shipping a box with a DSP or FPGA running something like that. But, the
advantage won't last.

Going after big markets seems like asking for trouble too. You want a
market big enough to turn a nice profit, but not big enough to attract
rich competitors.

Maybe it is too late in the covid pandemic for this to be as good an
opportunity as before, but I think there is an untapped market for
affordable powered respirators that can filter viruses. Something like
this:

https://www.shopmask.com/respirator-philips-acm066.html

but with the NIOSH or FDA approvals to sell it in the US market as
personal protective equipment (PPE). The approvals would help against
cloning but not against counterfeiting.

Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for prototyping end product designs?

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From: dxfo...@gmail.com (dxforth)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for
prototyping end product designs?
Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2022 17:17:31 +1100
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 by: dxforth - Sun, 13 Mar 2022 06:17 UTC

On 13/03/2022 04:21, Rick C wrote:
> On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:31:43 AM UTC-5, Paul Rubin wrote:
>>
>> You can now sell it on places like Tindie.com. If you look on that
>> site, you can see all kinds of stuff that people have made and offered.
>> You are unlikely to become a billionaire oligarch (this week's buzzword)
>> that way, but you can have some fun and make a few bucks.
>
> "Few" is the appropriate measure. Typically not worth the effort. What I've wanted to find is a way to tap into the market where a Chinese company makes my product and other companies sell it on eBay or similar sites, paying me a royalty. But there's no way to assure you don't get ripped off, not just from other vendors cloning the product, but by the vendors who simply don't pay the royalty. I really don't want to have anything to do with the order fulfillment aspect. I want to design and perhaps promote, and even manufacture, but not take orders or ship product. I've never found a means of doing that where it doesn't involve getting ripped off.
>

You want the money but not the hassle. Don't we all.

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Subject: Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for
prototyping end product designs?
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 by: S Jack - Sun, 13 Mar 2022 14:26 UTC

On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 2:28:44 PM UTC-6, Wayne morellini wrote:

1. Marketing 101: First sell it then build.

2. Three noted pioneers of radio

First, the tinkerer who stumbled onto the vacuum tube. Didn't know
why it worked only that it did. Made a bit of money for that.
Spent it all on booze and wild women but was happy.

Second, the engineer. He figured out how it worked and how it
could be made useful. With this information radio came into being
and radio stations started springing up all over the country.

Third, the Russian immigrant. Saw the potential. Made arrangements
with all the radio stations and became owner, now rich, of first
radio broadcast network.

Early AM radio was ok except in thunder storms which drastically
disrupted reception. The engineer with his knowledge came up with
a fix, FM. And patented it so he too could now cash in on this
new technology.

The network owner thought the FM was great but didn't take to the
idea of paying royalty. He sent out directives to all his network
stations to use the FM but not to pay for it. Of course, the
engineer took him to court. After fighting the owner's team of
lawyers for decades and never winning a settlement, the engineer
died with three dollars in his bank account.

Good luck swimming with the sharks.
--
me

Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for prototyping end product designs?

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Subject: Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for
prototyping end product designs?
From: gnuarm.d...@gmail.com (Rick C)
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 by: Rick C - Sun, 13 Mar 2022 14:45 UTC

On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 1:17:35 AM UTC-5, dxforth wrote:
> On 13/03/2022 04:21, Rick C wrote:
> > On Saturday, March 12, 2022 at 4:31:43 AM UTC-5, Paul Rubin wrote:
> >>
> >> You can now sell it on places like Tindie.com. If you look on that
> >> site, you can see all kinds of stuff that people have made and offered..
> >> You are unlikely to become a billionaire oligarch (this week's buzzword)
> >> that way, but you can have some fun and make a few bucks.
> >
> > "Few" is the appropriate measure. Typically not worth the effort. What I've wanted to find is a way to tap into the market where a Chinese company makes my product and other companies sell it on eBay or similar sites, paying me a royalty. But there's no way to assure you don't get ripped off, not just from other vendors cloning the product, but by the vendors who simply don't pay the royalty. I really don't want to have anything to do with the order fulfillment aspect. I want to design and perhaps promote, and even manufacture, but not take orders or ship product. I've never found a means of doing that where it doesn't involve getting ripped off.
> >
> You want the money but not the hassle. Don't we all.

I want to get paid for what I do well, develop ideas and products. Let others do the grunt work, yes, absolutely! CEOs don't typically clean the toilets and especially don't operate the heavy machinery. Far too dangerous.

Everyone has their specialty. Some pay better than others. Putting a product on a web site and fulfilling orders is a good way for someone with that skill set to get rich by helping others get rich.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

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Subject: Re: Looking for micro embedded development systems set up for
prototyping end product designs?
From: waynemor...@gmail.com (Wayne morellini)
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 by: Wayne morellini - Sun, 13 Mar 2022 17:07 UTC

On Sunday, March 13, 2022 at 9:10:23 AM UTC+10, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> writes:
> > What I've wanted to find is a way to tap into the market where a
> > Chinese company makes my product and other companies sell it on eBay
> > or similar sites, paying me a royalty. But there's no way to assure
> > you don't get ripped off, not just from other vendors cloning the
> > product, but by the vendors who simply don't pay the royalty.
> Quite true. You might get some temporary relief if your product does
> something hard to re-implement and you ship it in code protected chips.
> Right now, speech recognition is an area where some small developers
> seem to be ahead of the game (medium.com/picovoice). I can imagine
> shipping a box with a DSP or FPGA running something like that. But, the
> advantage won't last.
>
> Going after big markets seems like asking for trouble too. You want a
> market big enough to turn a nice profit, but not big enough to attract
> rich competitors.
>
> Maybe it is too late in the covid pandemic for this to be as good an
> opportunity as before, but I think there is an untapped market for
> affordable powered respirators that can filter viruses. Something like
> this:
>
> https://www.shopmask.com/respirator-philips-acm066.html
>
> but with the NIOSH or FDA approvals to sell it in the US market as
> personal protective equipment (PPE). The approvals would help against
> cloning but not against counterfeiting.

It's a matter of living with the vampires. You do the tricks to give yourself time to make profit, before the vamp gets into the house. The thing that makes it easy to develop makes it easier for 100 companies to copy you. There are a few other strategies for large volume. One, keep overhead and price down, the Jack Tramiel commodore of the early 1980's. You make it hard for them to compete. Another is big money and big marketing and sales/distribution budgets. There you get like a billion to really push into a market. Another is paradigm shift/multi year technology lead. But again, huge development costs and Intellectual property is often needed.

What is needed, is the courts to give acknowledgement to automatic right to the form of the intellectual property, like copyright does to writing. The design is equivalent to a word for word form, or description of something new and novely different from before, just in a different language (of schematic forms and parts) which aligns with copyright too, except we have to consider where it's commercial value can lay to protect it. Copyright law is in a need of an upgrade too, to protect the form of ideas/plot, from exact duplication, without novelty (considered like plagiarism). So, the two are infact the same law, just different applications of it. The government should legislate it. I would go further in design terms, down to the sub-form of the idea or product. So, we have a branching interlinked tree of Knowledge, and some person makes a novel deviation in one of the branches of the tree, they then own the right to that and part income right from all deviations of it own the hierarchy tribute. It's a much fairer reward than patenting. We then use a reducing distribution further up the tree, such as at each branch the amount of income drops. Say 90% drop at each branch. A few other adjustments, such as income based on fraction of cost incurred etc etc etc. We eventually get to an automatic system of negotiation and settlements. All novelty has to ad value to be recognised. Even intellectual forms have costs, and is the only real weakness of the system, is account for low development and implementation costs of intellectual forms of great value. Whatever people think here, the cost involved in the progressive development of the x86 processor lineage, dwarfs the costs of the revolutionary software algorithm you thought of in bed that would run on it. So, maybe a fraction of the net profit should be looked at for such a thing. The idea of the proposal was to reduce cost and increase esse, of getting IP, but limit the amount of overall licensing costs in pricing.

Paul, I have seen a full face mask which uses UV light to allow easy air flow and breathing. So, with all these innovations, mask innovation would be an uphill battle now.

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