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devel / comp.lang.forth / Re: Optimizing #

SubjectAuthor
* Optimizing #Anton Ertl
+- Re: Optimizing #Ron AARON
+* Re: Optimizing #Krishna Myneni
|+* Re: Optimizing #minf...@arcor.de
||+- Re: Optimizing #Krishna Myneni
||+* Re: Optimizing #Anton Ertl
|||+* Re: Optimizing #Marcel Hendrix
||||`- Re: Optimizing #Marcel Hendrix
|||`- Re: Optimizing #Hans Bezemer
||+- Re: Optimizing #Rick C
||`* Re: Optimizing #dxforth
|| `- Re: Optimizing #Rick C
|`* Re: Optimizing #Krishna Myneni
| +- Re: Optimizing #Krishna Myneni
| `* Re: Optimizing #dxforth
|  +* Re: Optimizing #Krishna Myneni
|  |`* Re: Optimizing #dxforth
|  | `* Re: Optimizing #Heinrich Hohl
|  |  +* Re: Optimizing #Heinrich Hohl
|  |  |`- Re: Optimizing #dxforth
|  |  +- Re: Optimizing #Hans Bezemer
|  |  +- Re: Optimizing #Hans Bezemer
|  |  `- Re: Optimizing #dxforth
|  `- Re: Optimizing #Hans Bezemer
+* Re: Optimizing #Brian Fox
|+* Re: Optimizing #Anton Ertl
||`* Re: Optimizing #Paul Rubin
|| +* Re: Optimizing #dxforth
|| |`- Re: Optimizing #Paul Rubin
|| `* Re: Optimizing #Anton Ertl
||  `* Re: Optimizing #Paul Rubin
||   +- Re: Optimizing #dxforth
||   `* Re: Optimizing #minf...@arcor.de
||    `* Re: Optimizing #Paul Rubin
||     `* Re: Optimizing #minf...@arcor.de
||      +* Re: Optimizing #Marcel Hendrix
||      |+* Re: Optimizing #Marcel Hendrix
||      ||`- Re: Optimizing #Marcel Hendrix
||      |`* Re: Optimizing #minf...@arcor.de
||      | +- Re: Optimizing #Paul Rubin
||      | +- Re: Optimizing #minf...@arcor.de
||      | `* Re: Optimizing #Paul Rubin
||      |  `* Re: Optimizing #minf...@arcor.de
||      |   `- Re: Optimizing #Anton Ertl
||      +* Re: Optimizing #dxforth
||      |`* Re: Optimizing #Paul Rubin
||      | `* Re: Optimizing #dxforth
||      |  +* Re: Optimizing #minf...@arcor.de
||      |  |`- Re: Optimizing #dxforth
||      |  `* Re: Optimizing #Anton Ertl
||      |   `- Re: Optimizing #dxforth
||      `- Re: Optimizing # , float conv & BigNums,Jan Coombs
|+- Re: Optimizing #Rick C
|`- Re: Optimizing #dxforth
+- Re: Optimizing #Anton Ertl
`* Re: Optimizing #dxforth
 `* Re: Optimizing #Anton Ertl
  +- Re: Optimizing #Anton Ertl
  `* Re: Optimizing #dxforth
   `* Re: Optimizing #Anton Ertl
    `* Re: Optimizing #dxforth
     `* Re: Optimizing #Brian Fox
      `* Re: Optimizing #dxforth
       `* Re: Optimizing #Brian Fox
        `* Re: Optimizing #Anton Ertl
         `* Re: Optimizing #Anton Ertl
          `* Re: Optimizing #minf...@arcor.de
           `* Re: Optimizing #Hans Bezemer
            +* Re: Optimizing #Anton Ertl
            |`* Re: Optimizing #Hans Bezemer
            | `* Re: Optimizing #Paul Rubin
            |  `* Re: Optimizing #Marcel Hendrix
            |   `* Re: Optimizing #dxforth
            |    `* Re: Optimizing #Anton Ertl
            |     `- Re: Optimizing #dxforth
            `* Re: Optimizing #dxforth
             `* Re: Optimizing #Hans Bezemer
              `* Re: Optimizing #minf...@arcor.de
               `* Re: Optimizing #Hans Bezemer
                `* Re: Optimizing #minf...@arcor.de
                 `* Re: Optimizing #Hans Bezemer
                  `* Re: Optimizing #dxforth
                   `- Re: Optimizing #Hans Bezemer

Pages:1234
Re: Optimizing #

<t26ga2$1ih0$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/devel/article-flat.php?id=17434&group=comp.lang.forth#17434

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From: dxfo...@gmail.com (dxforth)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Optimizing #
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2022 20:23:13 +1100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: dxforth - Fri, 1 Apr 2022 09:23 UTC

On 1/04/2022 18:10, Marcel Hendrix wrote:
> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 3:02:18 AM UTC+2, Paul Rubin wrote:
>> Hans Bezemer <the.bee...@gmail.com> writes:
>> > It's just nice to know when you're doing something stupid - something
>> > that simply doesn't compile. Like adding an integer to a float.
>> Those automatic conversions seem to have gone out of style in recent
>> decades, and a good thing too. I guess you don't like Ada though.
>
> I would be worried more about adding a float to an integer.
>
> -marcel

ISTR someone here taking an integer, processing it as a float, and converting
it back to integer. By that measure adding a float to an integer shouldn't be
a problem.

Re: Optimizing #

<2022Apr1.123938@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>

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From: ant...@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at (Anton Ertl)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Optimizing #
Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2022 10:39:38 GMT
Organization: Institut fuer Computersprachen, Technische Universitaet Wien
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 by: Anton Ertl - Fri, 1 Apr 2022 10:39 UTC

dxforth <dxforth@gmail.com> writes:
>ISTR someone here taking an integer, processing it as a float, and converting
>it back to integer. By that measure adding a float to an integer shouldn't be
>a problem.

It is:

4000000000000000001 5000000000000000001 + . \ 9000000000000000002 ok
4000000000000000001 5000000000000000001 s>f f>s + . \ 9000000000000000001 ok

That's with 64-bit floats (53-bit mantissa).

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2021: https://euro.theforth.net/2021

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Subject: Re: Optimizing #
From: the.beez...@gmail.com (Hans Bezemer)
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 by: Hans Bezemer - Fri, 1 Apr 2022 18:16 UTC

On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 4:28:35 PM UTC+2, minf...@arcor.de wrote:
> the.bee...@gmail.com schrieb am Donnerstag, 31. März 2022 um 11:18:17 UTC+2:
> > On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 1:55:06 AM UTC+2, dxforth wrote:
> > > On 31/03/2022 00:26, Hans Bezemer wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Why? I don't like compilers doing things behind my back, so if not ALL operands are designated the same type - that's an error to me.
> > > >
> > > > It's bad enough operators are overloaded (I like the way Forth thinks), but allowing this leaves to way to much leeway to the compiler
> > > > to do whatever it likes. Yes, I know it's all documented - but how many of us are looking in the standard to see whether this thing is
> > > > allowed or not - and what the documented behavior of (in this case) C is?
> > > >
> > > > I once had to write my own strtol(), because I found out that under TurboC v2, trap values were converted UNSIGNED - instead of
> > > > triggering an error.
> > > >
> > > > So yes - I'm not a big fan of Python or javascript. And I'd rather have a C-- than C++ - where C-- would be a lot dumber and more pedantic
> > > > than vanilla C.
> > > Are you trying to put compiler writers out of business? But no fear of that.
> > > Who can resist when the Serpent whispers 'All these things I can give you'.
> > Yeah - but I'm not biting. Best thing so far is still C. Although I'm quite worried about the developments there.
> > If those continue I fear what I have to do to keep my compiler running predictably.
> >
> > And since I like it to be running on every platform, any niche or fringe language will not do.
> >
> AFAIK your 4th is more geared for desktops than for microcontrollers
> (I may be wrong here). There AMD64 assembly covers 90% of the "market"
> and is no niche language.
Never seen a microcontroller in my life, so you may be right there ;-)

HB

Re: Optimizing #

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 by: minf...@arcor.de - Fri, 1 Apr 2022 20:36 UTC

the.bee...@gmail.com schrieb am Freitag, 1. April 2022 um 20:16:05 UTC+2:
> On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 4:28:35 PM UTC+2, minf...@arcor.de wrote:
> > the.bee...@gmail.com schrieb am Donnerstag, 31. März 2022 um 11:18:17 UTC+2:
> > > On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 1:55:06 AM UTC+2, dxforth wrote:
> > > > On 31/03/2022 00:26, Hans Bezemer wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Why? I don't like compilers doing things behind my back, so if not ALL operands are designated the same type - that's an error to me.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's bad enough operators are overloaded (I like the way Forth thinks), but allowing this leaves to way to much leeway to the compiler
> > > > > to do whatever it likes. Yes, I know it's all documented - but how many of us are looking in the standard to see whether this thing is
> > > > > allowed or not - and what the documented behavior of (in this case) C is?
> > > > >
> > > > > I once had to write my own strtol(), because I found out that under TurboC v2, trap values were converted UNSIGNED - instead of
> > > > > triggering an error.
> > > > >
> > > > > So yes - I'm not a big fan of Python or javascript. And I'd rather have a C-- than C++ - where C-- would be a lot dumber and more pedantic
> > > > > than vanilla C.
> > > > Are you trying to put compiler writers out of business? But no fear of that.
> > > > Who can resist when the Serpent whispers 'All these things I can give you'.
> > > Yeah - but I'm not biting. Best thing so far is still C. Although I'm quite worried about the developments there.
> > > If those continue I fear what I have to do to keep my compiler running predictably.
> > >
> > > And since I like it to be running on every platform, any niche or fringe language will not do.
> > >
> > AFAIK your 4th is more geared for desktops than for microcontrollers
> > (I may be wrong here). There AMD64 assembly covers 90% of the "market"
> > and is no niche language.
> Never seen a microcontroller in my life, so you may be right there ;-)
>
For instance Arduinos are cheap.

Re: Optimizing #

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From: dxfo...@gmail.com (dxforth)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: Optimizing #
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2022 14:06:18 +1100
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 by: dxforth - Sat, 2 Apr 2022 03:06 UTC

On 1/04/2022 21:39, Anton Ertl wrote:
> dxforth <dxforth@gmail.com> writes:
>>ISTR someone here taking an integer, processing it as a float, and converting
>>it back to integer. By that measure adding a float to an integer shouldn't be
>>a problem.
>
> It is:
>
> 4000000000000000001 5000000000000000001 + . \ 9000000000000000002 ok
> 4000000000000000001 5000000000000000001 s>f f>s + . \ 9000000000000000001 ok
>
> That's with 64-bit floats (53-bit mantissa).

The latter isn't wrong because it failed to produce the correct mathematical result;
rather it was doing extra work for no gain. Not so pointless would be:

4000000000000000001 5000000000000000001e f>s + . 9000000000000000001 ok

Or this:

5000000000000000001e f. 5000000000000000000. ok

which - though it has scaling and conversion errors - produces something useful.

Re: Optimizing #

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Subject: Re: Optimizing #
From: the.beez...@gmail.com (Hans Bezemer)
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 by: Hans Bezemer - Sat, 2 Apr 2022 13:58 UTC

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 10:36:56 PM UTC+2, minf...@arcor.de wrote:
> For instance Arduinos are cheap.
So are Raspberry Pi's (zero variant) - and they come with my beloved Linux OS ;-)

Hans Bezemer

Re: Optimizing #

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From: dxfo...@gmail.com (dxforth)
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Subject: Re: Optimizing #
Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2022 12:42:34 +1000
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 by: dxforth - Sun, 3 Apr 2022 02:42 UTC

On 3/04/2022 00:58, Hans Bezemer wrote:
> On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 10:36:56 PM UTC+2, minf...@arcor.de wrote:
>> For instance Arduinos are cheap.
> So are Raspberry Pi's (zero variant) - and they come with my beloved Linux OS ;-)
>
> Hans Bezemer

But does it come with cheap add-ons for those no longer predisposed to picking up
a soldering iron or eyes good enough to see an SMD component :)

https://www.avrfreaks.net/forum/arduino-multifunction-shield-7-seg-driver-hardware-question

Besides, a tiny forth makes one think about what's needed as opposed to liked.

Re: Optimizing #

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Subject: Re: Optimizing #
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 by: Hans Bezemer - Sun, 3 Apr 2022 12:30 UTC

On Sunday, April 3, 2022 at 4:42:37 AM UTC+2, dxforth wrote:
> But does it come with cheap add-ons for those no longer predisposed to picking up
> a soldering iron or eyes good enough to see an SMD component :)
>
> https://www.avrfreaks.net/forum/arduino-multifunction-shield-7-seg-driver-hardware-question
I don't really have a love affair with hardware. The first time I tinkered with H/W was when I ordered
a dk'tronics keyboard for my ZX Spectrum. I really can't tell you what I thought, but I became a little
anxious when I read the manual and it said TO TAKE THE SPEC OUT OF ITS CASING AND PUT IT
INSIDE THE KEYBOARD.

WHAT?! REALLY!? I had spent an arm and a leg on that little thing. You don't sell people a TV
accessory and then just say "take the TV out of its casing". So, with trembling hand I took off the
screws opened it and stared. For a long, long time. I tried pulling the connectors, but those didn't
seem to go anywhere. It tool me a while before I managed to pull out the ribbon cables and complete
the procedure. Fortunately, it lit up right away.

After that I did a lot of stuff. Add a Soundblaster media package (SB + CD), a serial port card,
graphics card, even a motherboard switch for both my father and my (then) girlfriend,
but I cost me a lot of nerves and consequently years of my life.

I don't like to tinker with H/W. F**kups are way to expensive. I've always been more of a software
guy. Rollbacks are much easier.

I've played with a 6K Forth on my Spectrum - which left about 32K to play around with - which was
WAY, WAY, WAY more than any other language (like Pascal, C or even Basic compilers). You know -
source was on tape. It had a 1K screen buffer, but that's it. I later patched the thing so it communicated
with my Betadisk IF. It even got its messages from disk. However, like assembly - if the screen got
black, you were sure you had made an error.

I always wanted to patch in a 64 chars screendriver, but I never got to it. IBM compatible was coming in.
Didn't like F83 though. So years later, I created 4tH - which was an ordinary compiler taking ordinary
source, which was also completely sandboxed to "prevent the screen going black".

TL;DR I worked with tiny Forths - but I fixed those things I didn't like in 4tH. So yeah, I know about tiny
Forths. And H/W is not really my thing unless some genius comes up with H/W rollbacks. I guess that
technology would be useful in other areas of life ;-)

Hans Bezemer

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