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devel / comp.lang.forth / Re: A short on Forth on YouTube

SubjectAuthor
* A short on Forth on YouTubeHans Bezemer
+* Re: A short on Forth on YouTubeDoug Hoffman
|`- Re: A short on Forth on YouTubej.merkel
+* Re: A short on Forth on YouTubedxforth
|`* Re: A short on Forth on YouTubeHans Bezemer
| +- Re: A short on Forth on YouTubeJan Coombs
| `- Re: A short on Forth on YouTubeHans Bezemer
+* Re: A short on Forth on YouTubeZbig
|`* Re: A short on Forth on YouTubedxforth
| +* Re: A short on Forth on YouTubenone
| |+* Re: A short on Forth on YouTubeHans Bezemer
| ||`* Re: A short on Forth on YouTubeS Jack
| || `* Re: A short on Forth on YouTubedxforth
| ||  `- Re: A short on Forth on YouTubeS Jack
| |`* Re: A short on Forth on YouTubedxforth
| | `- Re: A short on Forth on YouTubeHans Bezemer
| `* Re: A short on Forth on YouTubeMarcel Hendrix
|  `- Re: A short on Forth on YouTubedxforth
+- Re: A short on Forth on YouTubeZbig
`* Re: A short on Forth on YouTubenone
 +- Re: A short on Forth on YouTubeHans Bezemer
 `- Re: A short on Forth on YouTubeHans Bezemer

1
A short on Forth on YouTube

<52966ecd-b62d-4be3-a5f2-ff5762fa9b73n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: A short on Forth on YouTube
From: the.beez...@gmail.com (Hans Bezemer)
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 by: Hans Bezemer - Fri, 13 May 2022 17:45 UTC

There are lots of shorts on lots of languages on YouTube.
But not one on Forth.

So I thought: I'm quite capable of doing that myself. So I did.

You can view it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml9s2HfpDZY

Hans Bezemer

Re: A short on Forth on YouTube

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 by: Doug Hoffman - Fri, 13 May 2022 23:51 UTC

Nice, Hans! I like it! Concise, to the point, easy and pleasant to watch.

Thank you.

-Doug

On 5/13/22 1:45 PM, Hans Bezemer wrote:
> There are lots of shorts on lots of languages on YouTube.
> But not one on Forth.
>
> So I thought: I'm quite capable of doing that myself. So I did.
>
> You can view it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml9s2HfpDZY
>
> Hans Bezemer

Re: A short on Forth on YouTube

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From: dxfo...@gmail.com (dxforth)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: A short on Forth on YouTube
Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 15:55:15 +1000
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 by: dxforth - Sat, 14 May 2022 05:55 UTC

On 14/05/2022 03:45, Hans Bezemer wrote:
> There are lots of shorts on lots of languages on YouTube.
> But not one on Forth.
>
> So I thought: I'm quite capable of doing that myself. So I did.
>
> You can view it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml9s2HfpDZY
>
> Hans Bezemer

I liked the imagery - telescopes, spacecraft, a shotgun, unfathomed
waters, a globe divided and revolution. Alas, no gaggling geese...

https://youtu.be/6A0bhAsAyGY

'Worst Programming Language Ever' ?

https://youtu.be/vcFBwt1nu2U?t=2630

Re: A short on Forth on YouTube

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 by: j.merkel - Sat, 14 May 2022 07:03 UTC

On Sa 14 May 22, 01:51 UTC+2, Doug Hoffman wrote:
> Nice, Hans! I like it! Concise, to the point, easy and pleasant to watch.

> Thank you.

> -Doug

> On 5/13/22 1:45 PM, Hans Bezemer wrote:
>> There are lots of shorts on lots of languages on YouTube.
>> But not one on Forth.
>>
>> So I thought: I'm quite capable of doing that myself. So I did.
>>
>> You can view it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml9s2HfpDZY
>>
>> Hans Bezemer

Hi Doug,

thanks for quoting the URL, I didn't receive the original posting
from my host individual.net ;-(

Hi Hans,

really cool! Well done and yes thanks.

I really love digging around in the 4tH documentation. More than
usable and free, where you give insights in the concepts to everybody,

--
Salut
_)oachim

Re: A short on Forth on YouTube

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Subject: Re: A short on Forth on YouTube
From: the.beez...@gmail.com (Hans Bezemer)
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 by: Hans Bezemer - Sat, 14 May 2022 09:52 UTC

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 7:55:21 AM UTC+2, dxforth wrote:
> Alas, no gaggling geese...
For understandable reasons, I thought it was wise not to mention the existence of c.l.f.

> 'Worst Programming Language Ever' ?
Watched that one! Forth is also mentioned as a (when I remember correctly)
"horrible language from the 1980-ies".

Hans Bezemer

Re: A short on Forth on YouTube

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Subject: Re: A short on Forth on YouTube
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 by: Zbig - Sat, 14 May 2022 10:55 UTC

> There are lots of shorts on lots of languages on YouTube.
> But not one on Forth.
Actually there are a few — like, for example:
„Forth2020” https://www.youtube.com/c/Forth2020/videos
„Silicon Valley Forth Interest Group” https://www.youtube.com/c/SiliconValleyForthInterestGroup/videos

Re: A short on Forth on YouTube

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 by: Jan Coombs - Sat, 14 May 2022 10:56 UTC

On Sat, 14 May 2022 02:52:31 -0700 (PDT)
Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> wrote:

> > 'Worst Programming Language Ever' ?
> Watched that one! Forth is also mentioned as a (when I remember correctly)
> "horrible language from the 1980-ies".

Mark Rendle said 1950s, I preferred the geese for accuracy,
vocal consensus, and a common direction.

Jan Coombs.
--

Re: A short on Forth on YouTube

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 by: Zbig - Sat, 14 May 2022 11:05 UTC

> So I thought: I'm quite capable of doing that myself. So I did.
>
> You can view it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml9s2HfpDZY

Oh, you meant something REALLY short. :)

Re: A short on Forth on YouTube

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Subject: Re: A short on Forth on YouTube
From: the.beez...@gmail.com (Hans Bezemer)
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 by: Hans Bezemer - Sat, 14 May 2022 14:10 UTC

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 11:52:32 AM UTC+2, Hans Bezemer wrote:
> Watched that one! Forth is also mentioned as a (when I remember correctly)
> "horrible language from the 1980-ies".
I was wrong: "a terrible language from the mist of time, 1950-ies or something".

Must be my age. Too many writes to the poor SSD. Data corrupt.

Hans Bezemer

Re: A short on Forth on YouTube

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 by: none - Sat, 14 May 2022 17:21 UTC

In article <52966ecd-b62d-4be3-a5f2-ff5762fa9b73n@googlegroups.com>,
Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> wrote:
>There are lots of shorts on lots of languages on YouTube.
>But not one on Forth.
>
>So I thought: I'm quite capable of doing that myself. So I did.
>
>You can view it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml9s2HfpDZY

I presume that you are not the same person as
Hans Bezemer : 1 hour 40 minutes about "Namaak-jezus" (fake-jezus)

I was interested in your other videos, but I only managed to view
a few of them. I suggest that you include the list of other videos url's
that belong to a series in the description.

>
>Hans Bezemer

Groetjes Albert
--
"in our communism country Viet Nam, people are forced to be
alive and in the western country like US, people are free to
die from Covid 19 lol" duc ha
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

Re: A short on Forth on YouTube

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Subject: Re: A short on Forth on YouTube
From: the.beez...@gmail.com (Hans Bezemer)
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 by: Hans Bezemer - Sat, 14 May 2022 17:33 UTC

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 7:21:12 PM UTC+2, none albert wrote:
> I presume that you are not the same person as
> Hans Bezemer : 1 hour 40 minutes about "Namaak-jezus" (fake-jezus)
I haven't been religious in 50 odd years, so I doubt it very much ;-)

> I was interested in your other videos, but I only managed to view
> a few of them. I suggest that you include the list of other videos url's
> that belong to a series in the description.
I added an endscreen, but I'll do the description as well. Thanks for the tip!

Hans Bezemer
> >
> >Hans Bezemer
>
> Groetjes Albert
> --
> "in our communism country Viet Nam, people are forced to be
> alive and in the western country like US, people are free to
> die from Covid 19 lol" duc ha
> albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

Re: A short on Forth on YouTube

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From: dxfo...@gmail.com (dxforth)
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Subject: Re: A short on Forth on YouTube
Date: Sun, 15 May 2022 14:19:10 +1000
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 by: dxforth - Sun, 15 May 2022 04:19 UTC

On 14/05/2022 20:55, Zbig wrote:
Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> wrote:
>> There are lots of shorts on lots of languages on YouTube.
>> But not one on Forth.

> Actually there are a few — like, for example:
> „Forth2020” https://www.youtube.com/c/Forth2020/videos
> „Silicon Valley Forth Interest Group” https://www.youtube.com/c/SiliconValleyForthInterestGroup/videos

What's there is mostly video conferences or presentations which
even for forthers tend towards sleep :) Having to explain something
of forth to an audience who may know nothing about it in two minutes
while keeping it brisk, interesting and positive is what a good
advert aims to do. Hans' tightly packed video seems to have the
right mix of history, notable achievements and differences, humour
and even a dig at forth's critics. The measure of any advert is
whether you'll remember it. We remember 'Starting FORTH' less for
the forth content - rather its quirky presentation.

Re: A short on Forth on YouTube

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 by: none - Sun, 15 May 2022 07:59 UTC

In article <t5puvs$2f3$1@gioia.aioe.org>, dxforth <dxforth@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 14/05/2022 20:55, Zbig wrote:
>Hans Bezemer <the.beez.speaks@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> There are lots of shorts on lots of languages on YouTube.
>>> But not one on Forth.
>
>> Actually there are a few — like, for example:
>> „Forth2020” https://www.youtube.com/c/Forth2020/videos
>> „Silicon Valley Forth Interest Group” https://www.youtube.com/c/SiliconValleyForthInterestGroup/videos
>
>What's there is mostly video conferences or presentations which
>even for forthers tend towards sleep :) Having to explain something
>of forth to an audience who may know nothing about it in two minutes
>while keeping it brisk, interesting and positive is what a good
>advert aims to do. Hans' tightly packed video seems to have the
>right mix of history, notable achievements and differences, humour
>and even a dig at forth's critics. The measure of any advert is
>whether you'll remember it. We remember 'Starting FORTH' less for
>the forth content - rather its quirky presentation.

Samuel Falvo published a number of things, notably conferences.

A video from hmself
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvrE2ZGe-rs
guides the viewer to building a text processing, but totally,
no handwaving.

I like this introduction:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOkUBnk4dgs

Groetjes Albert
--
"in our communism country Viet Nam, people are forced to be
alive and in the western country like US, people are free to
die from Covid 19 lol" duc ha
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

Re: A short on Forth on YouTube

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Subject: Re: A short on Forth on YouTube
From: mhx...@iae.nl (Marcel Hendrix)
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 by: Marcel Hendrix - Sun, 15 May 2022 09:28 UTC

On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 6:19:16 AM UTC+2, dxforth wrote:
[..]
> The measure of any advert is
> whether you'll remember it. We remember 'Starting FORTH' less for
> the forth content - rather its quirky presentation.

At least for me, 'Starting Forth's presentation was completely in-character
with its content. Lampo's LaTeX introduction uses the same approach.
A good illustration anchors a key concept in one's mind.

-marcel

Re: A short on Forth on YouTube

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Subject: Re: A short on Forth on YouTube
From: the.beez...@gmail.com (Hans Bezemer)
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 by: Hans Bezemer - Sun, 15 May 2022 11:49 UTC

On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 9:59:08 AM UTC+2, none albert wrote:
> I like this introduction:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOkUBnk4dgs

Personally, I don't like lengthy videos of a guy behind a terminal.
And I don't say that to put the guy down in order to push my own
video's - I really do feel like that that.

You can take a look at my playlist on uBasic/4tH - it's all between
5 - 10 mins and very little (in the beginning even no) terminal time.

It's more like the style you see on e.g. video editors or sound editors -
you name a specific problem and solve it in 5 - 10 mins. I must admit
I still do that when I wanna do something in Audacity or Kdenlive and
I don't know (or have forgotten) why.

Of course, this is my opinion - and you're free to have a different one.
I'm not gonna discuss this at length. I simply make vids I would want to
watch myself.

Hans Bezemer

Re: A short on Forth on YouTube

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Subject: Re: A short on Forth on YouTube
From: the.beez...@gmail.com (Hans Bezemer)
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 by: Hans Bezemer - Sun, 15 May 2022 11:58 UTC

On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 7:21:12 PM UTC+2, none albert wrote:
> I was interested in your other videos, but I only managed to view
> a few of them. I suggest that you include the list of other videos url's
> that belong to a series in the description.
Fixed the description, thanks. BTW, my main channel is here:
https://www.youtube.com/c/HansBezemer/videos

Note that are a lot of (older) screen grabs there without any comment.

Hans Bezemer

Re: A short on Forth on YouTube

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Subject: Re: A short on Forth on YouTube
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 14:24:03 +1000
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 by: dxforth - Mon, 16 May 2022 04:24 UTC

On 15/05/2022 19:28, Marcel Hendrix wrote:
> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 6:19:16 AM UTC+2, dxforth wrote:
> [..]
>> The measure of any advert is
>> whether you'll remember it. We remember 'Starting FORTH' less for
>> the forth content - rather its quirky presentation.
>
> At least for me, 'Starting Forth's presentation was completely in-character
> with its content. Lampo's LaTeX introduction uses the same approach.
> A good illustration anchors a key concept in one's mind.

An SF reader would need something to distract given it was written in
a dialect well out of reach of most pockets. Why struggle with a text
one could barely use and praise it to the heavens? SF represented
Forth which thumbed its nose at establishment. In parodying itself with
cartoonish characters, Forth left little for CS to seriously criticize.

Re: A short on Forth on YouTube

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Subject: Re: A short on Forth on YouTube
Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 17:38:13 +1000
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 by: dxforth - Mon, 16 May 2022 07:38 UTC

On 15/05/2022 17:59, albert wrote:
> ...
> I like this introduction:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOkUBnk4dgs

My introduction to Forth was a work colleague telling me about a new language
he'd discovered. I don't recall the context other than he was quite excited
by it. He was across everything microcomputers and his enthusiasm impressed
me enough that I bought a cheap implementation. It wasn't love at first sight
but a beginning.

Re: A short on Forth on YouTube

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 by: Hans Bezemer - Mon, 16 May 2022 09:44 UTC

On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 9:38:16 AM UTC+2, dxforth wrote:
> My introduction to Forth was a work colleague telling me about a new language
> he'd discovered. I don't recall the context other than he was quite excited
> by it. He was across everything microcomputers and his enthusiasm impressed
> me enough that I bought a cheap implementation. It wasn't love at first sight
> but a beginning.

I'd already mastered Basic, Pascal and Z80 assembly and wanted to do another
language. It cost me $40, but I got Artic Forth - which BTW is also featured in the short.
While most languages left me about 20K (or even less) to play with, Forth got me a
whopping 32K (Abersoft forth ate another 6K or 8K for its "RAM drive").

I didn't understand too much of it, so I spend a whopping $150 on textbooks to learn
it. It was fun. I also patched the thing to work with the Betadrive - and then the system
exploded! By reading and writing blocks to disk, this thing became a viable system -
doing things far beyond the ZX Spectrum's capabilities.

Even though the Beta couldn't (in its first iteration) open a file and do consecutive reads
or writes to it, that wasn't a problem when doing blocks. You filled up a block with data,
updated it and then write it to disk and open up another block. Although disabled, I
reenabled getting FULL error messages from disk.

I even rewrote some string utilities published in Vijgeblad by Marcel Hendrix in
assembly, smudged the stuff and got blindingly fast string processing. So yeah,
some assembly required, but this thing really delivered.

But then came Forth-83 and F83. And not to diminish the quality or the effort of
that product, but I just didn't like it. So I went Turbo C v2 (which I still use for some
applications).

That was, until the point, an odd 5 years later, when I had accumulated enough skills
to make the Forth I wanted - which became 4tH. And that was full circle. Because I've
done very little development in C itself. With 4tH I can take on tasks that would baffle
me when I had to do them in I - like the 4tH preprocessor; or even a line editor.

So the last 25 years I've done almost all my development in Forth. Of course there is
the fun of doing things "in your own tool", but nowadays - with a vast library of handy stuff -
choosing C above 4tH simply seems madness to me.

Now, why should I choose 4tH above Python - well, first of all, I think Python is a particularly
horrible language. I need a horrible blob of stuff on my computer. If you wanna make a
standalone executable, you have to turn it using Pyinstaller in another horrible blob.
Using 4tH I get a neat little native, standalone executable - which I can compile by just calling
doing "make".

If I got to run it across multiple platforms, all I got to do is to distribute an even smaller
..HX bytecode file. I've done that in a professional environment as well. It's quite painless -
even the dumbest operator can do it.

Now of course, there are millions of other reasons, tools and workarounds - and I'm open
to hear them - but the bottom line is - it has very well worked for me and my clients.

I have to note in this regard that I'm not a developer by profession (not anymore). I just solve
stuff that (obviously) nobody else is able to solve in that time frame.

Hans Bezemer

Re: A short on Forth on YouTube

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Subject: Re: A short on Forth on YouTube
From: sdwjac...@gmail.com (S Jack)
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 by: S Jack - Mon, 16 May 2022 14:41 UTC

On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 6:49:09 AM UTC-5, the.bee...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 9:59:08 AM UTC+2, none albert wrote:
> > I like this introduction:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOkUBnk4dgs
> Personally, I don't like lengthy videos of a guy behind a terminal.

Agree. No matter how much I like a subject it's hard to sit through a
a video; give me a live professor any day or just point me to text that
I can read on my own.

Nice what you did.
--
me

Re: A short on Forth on YouTube

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From: dxfo...@gmail.com (dxforth)
Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth
Subject: Re: A short on Forth on YouTube
Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 14:11:49 +1000
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 by: dxforth - Tue, 17 May 2022 04:11 UTC

On 17/05/2022 00:41, S Jack wrote:
> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 6:49:09 AM UTC-5, the.bee...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, May 15, 2022 at 9:59:08 AM UTC+2, none albert wrote:
>> > I like this introduction:
>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOkUBnk4dgs
>> Personally, I don't like lengthy videos of a guy behind a terminal.
>
> Agree. No matter how much I like a subject it's hard to sit through a
> a video; give me a live professor any day or just point me to text that
> I can read on my own.

Coming from an engineering background I had to get up to speed quickly
when something new came along. For me, the ideal would be a book or
manual which had all the technical details to which I could later refer,
and chapter or two of introduction. I don't know how college students
would view such a thing but for professionals 'just the facts, ma'am'
is appreciated.

Re: A short on Forth on YouTube

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Subject: Re: A short on Forth on YouTube
From: sdwjac...@gmail.com (S Jack)
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 by: S Jack - Tue, 17 May 2022 14:25 UTC

On Monday, May 16, 2022 at 11:11:52 PM UTC-5, dxforth wrote:
> and chapter or two of introduction. I don't know how college students
> would view such a thing but for professionals 'just the facts, ma'am'
> is appreciated.

Yes. And when I wrote specs, I just put in facts and marketing would complain
because they wanted it weasel worded so they could just drop in their marketing
garbage without rework. Between marketing and x-wife I don't hear very well;
nothing physical.
--
me

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