Dear Sir,

I have successfully downloaded Python into my laptop but the shortcut icon
is not appearing on the desktop. I am using Windows 10 with the PC
specifications as per snap shot attached below. Can you advise what to do?

Thank you

Tim Deke

[image: image.png]

On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 03:38:11 +1000, Tim Deke <tim.deke@gmail.com> declaimed
the following:

>Dear Sir,
>
>I have successfully downloaded Python into my laptop but the shortcut icon
>is not appearing on the desktop. I am using Windows 10 with the PC
>specifications as per snap shot attached below. Can you advise what to do?
>
>Thank you
>
>Tim Deke
>
>[image: image.png]

Text only group -- if you need to reference a binary file you will have
to post it on some hosting service and include a link (URL) to that file.
CAVEAT: many of us will not click on random/ad-hoc links -- if the link
does not explicitly end in a recognized file name it will be considered
dangerous [as it could transfer anything, including mal-ware]; at least
with a "safe" file name, it may be considered for examination)

As for the main question?

WHAT did you download -- where from, what name, etc. ...and where on
your computer did you download it?

Python normally does not create "shortcut icon"s -- one downloads an
installer (which on my system would be saved in %userprofile%\downloads),
and executes the installer (once). Python is not an all-in-one GUI
development environment (ie; it is not something like Lazarus/FreePascal,
Visual Studio, etc.). It is an interpreter for script files and depending
upon how the installer sets up the environment, one may never need to
directly invoke the Python interpreter -- one just invokes .py script files
and the OS activates the correct interpreter.

C:\Users\Wulfraed>rem direct invocation; python.exe is found in %PATH%
C:\Users\Wulfraed>python
Python ActivePython 3.8.2 (ActiveState Software Inc.) based on
on win32
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>

C:\Users\Wulfraed>rem "py launcher" (which I don't trust as it has been
known to pick a different Python at times
C:\Users\Wulfraed>py
Python ActivePython 3.8.2 (ActiveState Software Inc.) based on
on win32
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>

C:\Users\Wulfraed>
C:\Users\Wulfraed>type junk.py

print("Let me out of here!")

C:\Users\Wulfraed>rem invocation of python providing a script file
C:\Users\Wulfraed>python junk.py
Let me out of here!

C:\Users\Wulfraed>rem direct invocation of script file, .py linked to
Python by OS
C:\Users\Wulfraed>junk.py
Let me out of here!

C:\Users\Wulfraed>rem direct invocation -- with .py defined as an
"executable" extension on my system
C:\Users\Wulfraed>junk
Let me out of here!

C:\Users\Wulfraed>

--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber AF6VN
wlfraed@ix.netcom.com http://wlfraed.microdiversity.freeddns.org/

> On 13 Apr 2022, at 19:46, Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> C:\Users\Wulfraed>rem "py launcher" (which I don't trust as it has been
> known to pick a different Python at times
> C:\Users\Wulfraed>py
> Python ActivePython 3.8.2 (ActiveState Software Inc.) based on
> on win32
> Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>>>

Py.exe is deterministic. You can edit an .ini file to configure it if the defaults do not work for you.
Use py -0 to see what python’s it can find.

Barry

Am 13.04.2022 um 20:39 schrieb Dennis Lee Bieber:
> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 03:38:11 +1000, Tim Deke <tim.deke@gmail.com> declaimed
> the following:
>
>> Dear Sir,
>>
>> I have successfully downloaded Python into my laptop but the shortcut icon
>> is not appearing on the desktop. I am using Windows 10 with the PC
>> specifications as per snap shot attached below. Can you advise what to do?
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>> Tim Deke
>>

> Python normally does not create "shortcut icon"s -- one downloads an

The Python Windows installer *absolutely* should. I do not know much
about (modern) Windows, but one thing I do know is, that most
Windows users are confused when after an installation there is no
easy way to call the program. I do not understand, why the Windows
installer *still* does not create a "Python 3.10" _*or similar*_
folder on the desktop with links to IDLE (with an icon text
describing it properly as a Python Editor/IDE), the CHM and some
introduction text in it.

> installer (which on my system would be saved in %userprofile%\downloads),
> and executes the installer (once). Python is not an all-in-one GUI
> development environment (ie; it is not something like Lazarus/FreePascal,
> Visual Studio, etc.). It is an interpreter for script files and depending
> upon how the installer sets up the environment, one may never need to
> directly invoke the Python interpreter -- one just invokes .py script files
> and the OS activates the correct interpreter.

With all due respect, but do you really think that it is useful for
a Python beginner to know how to run the bare interpreter? ;-)

Wouldn't it be much better to educate them about IDLE which can be
found in the "Startmenu"?

On 2022-04-14, Mirko via Python-list <python-list@python.org> wrote:

>> Python normally does not create "shortcut icon"s -- one downloads an
>
> The Python Windows installer *absolutely* should.

Agreed. I'm not much of a Windows user, but I do maintain a few
Windows applications with installers. They all create desktop
shortcuts by default. There's a checkbox for it, and the user can
uncheck it. In my experience, if an installer doesn't create a desktop
shortcut by default, it just generates a lot of support calls about
the installer not working or how do you run the program? Expecting
people to go read some documentation on how to run a program, or even
expecting them to look through the start menu is asking for headaches.

That said, I don't really have much skin in this game since I neither
use nor help maintain the windows installer. I do sometimes try to
respond to the "installer is broken" or "how do I run it" posts, but
I've mostly given up on that.

--
Grant

On 4/14/22 2:42 PM, Mirko via Python-list wrote:
> Am 13.04.2022 um 20:39 schrieb Dennis Lee Bieber:
>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 03:38:11 +1000, Tim Deke <tim.deke@gmail.com> declaimed
>> the following:
>>
>>> Dear Sir,
>>>
>>> I have successfully downloaded Python into my laptop but the shortcut icon
>>> is not appearing on the desktop. I am using Windows 10 with the PC
>>> specifications as per snap shot attached below. Can you advise what to do?
>>>
>>> Thank you
>>>
>>> Tim Deke
>>>
>> Python normally does not create "shortcut icon"s -- one downloads an
> The Python Windows installer *absolutely* should. I do not know much
> about (modern) Windows, but one thing I do know is, that most
> Windows users are confused when after an installation there is no
> easy way to call the program. I do not understand, why the Windows
> installer *still* does not create a "Python 3.10" _*or similar*_
> folder on the desktop with links to IDLE (with an icon text
> describing it properly as a Python Editor/IDE), the CHM and some
> introduction text in it.
>
>> installer (which on my system would be saved in %userprofile%\downloads),
>> and executes the installer (once). Python is not an all-in-one GUI
>> development environment (ie; it is not something like Lazarus/FreePascal,
>> Visual Studio, etc.). It is an interpreter for script files and depending
>> upon how the installer sets up the environment, one may never need to
>> directly invoke the Python interpreter -- one just invokes .py script files
>> and the OS activates the correct interpreter.
> With all due respect, but do you really think that it is useful for
> a Python beginner to know how to run the bare interpreter? ;-)
>
> Wouldn't it be much better to educate them about IDLE which can be
> found in the "Startmenu"?

I think the issue is that the 'python' interpreter/compiler isn't the
sort of program that makes sense to make a desktop icon for, as it is a
command line utility.

Perhaps making an icon for IDLE, if it has also been installed, but then
the issue becomes would people recognize 'IDLE' as 'Python' to click on.

--
Richard Damon

On 4/14/22 17:08, Richard Damon wrote:

> I think the issue is that the 'python' interpreter/compiler isn't the
> sort of program that makes sense to make a desktop icon for, as it is a
> command line utility.
>
> Perhaps making an icon for IDLE, if it has also been installed, but then
> the issue becomes would people recognize 'IDLE' as 'Python' to click on.

I think so, the current icon has the Python logo superimposed on what
looks like a page of code.

On 2022-04-14, Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> wrote:

> I think the issue is that the 'python' interpreter/compiler isn't the
> sort of program that makes sense to make a desktop icon for, as it is a
> command line utility.

Yes, it is a command line utility. Why does that mean you shouldn't
have a desktop shortcut for it?

I start up a python REPL prompt in a terminal often enough that were I
a windows users, I would probably want a desktop shortcut for it.

It would at least let people know that something got installed and
show them what a Python is. If they don't want/use that shortcut, it's
trivial to delete it.

--
Grant

On 4/14/22 18:06, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2022-04-14, Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> wrote:
>
>> I think the issue is that the 'python' interpreter/compiler isn't the
>> sort of program that makes sense to make a desktop icon for, as it is a
>> command line utility.
>
> Yes, it is a command line utility. Why does that mean you shouldn't
> have a desktop shortcut for it?
>
> I start up a python REPL prompt in a terminal often enough that were I
> a windows users, I would probably want a desktop shortcut for it.
>
> It would at least let people know that something got installed and
> show them what a Python is. If they don't want/use that shortcut, it's
> trivial to delete it.
>
> --
> Grant
>
>

easy to add - it's a windows thing, not a python thing. you can
navigate to the install directory and create a shortcut and drag that
out of that directiory in explorer and drop it on the desktop. or you
can navigate through the start menu, and when you get to the thing you
want, pick open folder and then you can create a shortcut and drag off
to the desktop.

Am 15.04.22 um 02:49 schrieb Mats Wichmann:
> On 4/14/22 18:06, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2022-04-14, Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the issue is that the 'python' interpreter/compiler isn't the
>>> sort of program that makes sense to make a desktop icon for, as it is a
>>> command line utility.
>>
>> Yes, it is a command line utility. Why does that mean you shouldn't
>> have a desktop shortcut for it?
>>
>> I start up a python REPL prompt in a terminal often enough that were I
>> a windows users, I would probably want a desktop shortcut for it.
>>
>> It would at least let people know that something got installed and
>> show them what a Python is. If they don't want/use that shortcut, it's
>> trivial to delete it.
>>
> easy to add - it's a windows thing, not a python thing. you can
> navigate to the install directory and create a shortcut and drag that
> out of that directiory in explorer and drop it on the desktop. or you
> can navigate through the start menu, and when you get to the thing you
> want, pick open folder and then you can create a shortcut and drag off
> to the desktop.

Yes, you *can* do that of course and it is not a Python thing - but the
point is, that typical Windows installers create these shortcuts during
the installation process for you - typically there is a pre-selected
checkbox "Create desktop icons" or similar. I agree with Grant that this
is what users expect from the installer.

Christian

On 2022-04-15, Mats Wichmann <mats@wichmann.us> wrote:
> On 4/14/22 18:06, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2022-04-14, Richard Damon <Richard@Damon-Family.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I think the issue is that the 'python' interpreter/compiler isn't the
>>> sort of program that makes sense to make a desktop icon for, as it is a
>>> command line utility.
>>
>> Yes, it is a command line utility. Why does that mean you shouldn't
>> have a desktop shortcut for it?
>>
>> I start up a python REPL prompt in a terminal often enough that were I
>> a windows users, I would probably want a desktop shortcut for it.
>>
>> It would at least let people know that something got installed and
>> show them what a Python is. If they don't want/use that shortcut, it's
>> trivial to delete it.
>
> easy to add - it's a windows thing, not a python thing. you can
> navigate to the install directory and create a shortcut and drag
> that out of that directiory in explorer and drop it on the desktop.

Of course it's easy to add. But, we're talking about people who have
no idea how to do that. They have no clue how to "navigate to the
install directory". They don't even realize anything _was_ installed.

The problem is that people run the installer, don't see a desktop
icon, and think nothing has been installed. Or they think the
installer "is python", and run it over and over again trying to "run
Python". Then they post the exact same plea for help that has been
posted coutless times.

If the installer, by default, created an IDLE desktop shortcut and a
cmd.exe shortcut that ran Python, I believe it would eliminate most of
those problems.

--
Grant

On 4/15/22 08:59, Grant Edwards wrote:

> Of course it's easy to add. But, we're talking about people who have
> no idea how to do that. They have no clue how to "navigate to the
> install directory". They don't even realize anything _was_ installed.

I dunno, it's a pretty WIndows-y thing, right-click + create shortcut.
But anyway...

> The problem is that people run the installer, don't see a desktop
> icon, and think nothing has been installed. Or they think the
> installer "is python", and run it over and over again trying to "run
> Python". Then they post the exact same plea for help that has been
> posted coutless times.
>
> If the installer, by default, created an IDLE desktop shortcut and a
> cmd.exe shortcut that ran Python, I believe it would eliminate most of
> those problems.

I'd add - not naming the installer something Windows' memory of recent
files retains as being Python itself - could be as simple as including
the word "setup" in the name.

On 2022-04-15, Mats Wichmann <mats@wichmann.us> wrote:

> I'd add - not naming the installer something Windows' memory of recent
> files retains as being Python itself - could be as simple as including
> the word "setup" in the name.

Oh yes, that's been suggested many, many times also. :)

I always name all my installers something that ends in -setup.exe or
-setup.ini. I always used to build .exe installers, but have more
recently been trending towards .ini's.

But the end of the basename alway ends in -setup.

--
Grant

Am 15.04.2022 um 18:53 schrieb Mats Wichmann:
> On 4/15/22 08:59, Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> Of course it's easy to add. But, we're talking about people who have
>> no idea how to do that. They have no clue how to "navigate to the
>> install directory". They don't even realize anything _was_ installed.
>
>
> I dunno, it's a pretty WIndows-y thing,
> But anyway...

Yes, it is a pretty "Windows-y thing". How do Windows software
installers work? What do they do? They add shortcuts to the desktop.
I do not use Windows for myself since many years, but it is hard
for me to remember any software that did not add those shortcuts.

> right-click + create shortcut.

Right-click on what and where? On something called "IDLE" (has what
to do with python?). Right click on "python.exe" which gives some
wired texty DOS-window (or how that thing is called) where one can
do what?

Don't get me wrong. I do not ask those questions. Myself, I'm
perfectly able to compile Python from source on pretty much any
system you throw me at. But we are talking about people who are new
to programming.

AFAIK, almost every Windows tool/application/utility does add those
desktop shortcuts/icons/links. Newcomers expect, want and need some
editor or IDE or "app". Just put a "Python" folder on the desktop
with an "IDLE Python Editor" on the desktop and done.

How hard is it do add that functionality to the Windows installer?
Because I just can't see any reason not to do it.

What is there to lose in trying/doing that? What dire consequences
does that might have?

Mats Wichmann wrote:
> On 4/15/22 08:59, Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> Of course it's easy to add. But, we're talking about people who have
>> no idea how to do that. They have no clue how to "navigate to the
>> install directory". They don't even realize anything _was_ installed.
>
>
> I dunno, it's a pretty WIndows-y thing, right-click + create shortcut.
> But anyway...
>
>> The problem is that people run the installer, don't see a desktop
>> icon, and think nothing has been installed. Or they think the
>> installer "is python", and run it over and over again trying to "run
>> Python". Then they post the exact same plea for help that has been
>> posted coutless times.
>>
>> If the installer, by default, created an IDLE desktop shortcut and a
>> cmd.exe shortcut that ran Python, I believe it would eliminate most of
>> those problems.
>
> I'd add - not naming the installer something Windows' memory of recent
> files retains as being Python itself - could be as simple as including
> the word "setup" in the name.

I would propose instead that the Python installer wipes the C: drive
entirely as long as it is launched twice.

Problem solved.

On 4/15/22, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The problem is that people run the installer, don't see a desktop
> icon, and think nothing has been installed.

Such people need to learn how to use the start menu, where all of
Python's shortcuts are installed in a folder named "Python <X.Y>". One
can also press the Windows key and type "python" to get a filtered
view of the application shortcuts.

> Or they think the installer "is python", and run it over and over
> again trying to "run Python".

I'm not opposed to renaming the installer to something that makes it
more obvious that it's only an installer. But, to put this in
perspective, I think you're talking about a small number of people out
of the millions of users who I presume install and use Python without
a problem. It could be that thousands of people install Python and
give up without complaining when they can't use it, but I doubt it.

> If the installer, by default, created an IDLE desktop shortcut and a
> cmd.exe shortcut that ran Python, I believe it would eliminate most of
> those problems.

The installed shortcuts are to IDLE (via "pythonw.exe") and
"python.exe". IDLE is a graphical integrated development environment
(shell, editor, debugger) that by default runs an interactive shell.
The "python.exe" executable is a console (terminal) application that
by default runs an interactive shell if its arguments do not specify a
script file, -m module, or -c command to run.

A console application is attached to a console session, a resource
that's hosted by an instance of "conhost.exe" or (in a tab of Windows
Terminal) "openconsole.exe". It connects to the console session via
files on the ConDrv device (e.g. "\Device\ConDrv\Connect",
"\Device\ConDrv\Input", "\Device\ConDrv\Output").

If an application executable is flagged as a console application, such
as "python.exe", and no console session was inherited from the parent
process, and the process wasn't spawned with the DETACHED_PROCESS
flag, then the Windows base API automatically allocates and attaches
to a new console session at startup during the initialization of
kernelbase.dll. If an application executable is flagged as a graphical
application, such as "pythonw.exe", then a console session is never
inherited and never automatically allocated, but one can be manually
allocated or acquired via AllocConsole() or
AttachConsole(dwProcessId).