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devel / comp.lang.python / RE: Python/New/Learn

SubjectAuthor
* Python/New/LearnPatrick 0511
+- Re: Python/New/LearnChris Angelico
+- Re: Python/New/LearnAvi Gross
+- Re: Python/New/LearnChris Angelico
+- Re: Python/New/LearnDan Stromberg
+- Re: Python/New/LearnAvi Gross
+- Re: Python/New/LearnChris Angelico
+- Re: Python/New/LearnAvi Gross
+- Re: Python/New/LearnAlan Gauld
+- RE: Python/New/LearnSchachner, Joseph
+- Re: Python/New/LearnMats Wichmann
+- Re: Python/New/LearnAvi Gross
+- Re: Python/New/LearnGrant Edwards
+- Re: Python/New/LearnChris Angelico
+- Re: Python/New/Learno1bigtenor
+- Re: Python/New/Learn2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE
+* Re: Python/New/LearnAvi Gross
|`* Re: Python/New/LearnStefan Ram
| +- Re: Python/New/LearnStefan Ram
| `* Re: Python/New/LearnStefan Ram
|  `* Re: Python/New/LearnGreg Ewing
|   +- Re: Python/New/LearnPeter J. Holzer
|   +- Re: Python/New/LearnStefan Ram
|   `- Re: Python/New/Learno1bigtenor
+- Re: Python/New/Learndn
`- Re: Python/New/LearnGrant Edwards

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Python/New/Learn

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 by: Patrick 0511 - Thu, 5 May 2022 01:36 UTC

Hello, I'm completely new here and don't know anything about python. Can someone tell me how best to start? So what things should I learn first?

Re: Python/New/Learn

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 by: Chris Angelico - Thu, 5 May 2022 02:51 UTC

On Thu, 5 May 2022 at 12:49, Patrick 0511 <killerkomando12@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello, I'm completely new here and don't know anything about python. Can someone tell me how best to start? So what things should I learn first?
>

I'd start right here with the tutorial!

https://docs.python.org/3/tutorial/

Most important thing is: play around. Have fun. Explore! You can't
really go all that far wrong, so don't be afraid to try things, even
"silly" things that "don't make any sense", because trying those
things is part of learning how the language works. (And you never know
- sometimes you might find that it actually does work.)

Oh, although, if you don't currently have Python installed, that would
be a place to start.

ChrisA

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 by: Avi Gross - Thu, 5 May 2022 02:56 UTC

https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonBooks

-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick 0511 <killerkomando12@gmail.com>
To: python-list@python.org
Sent: Wed, May 4, 2022 9:36 pm
Subject: Python/New/Learn

Hello, I'm completely new here and don't know anything about python. Can someone tell me how best to start? So what things should I learn first?
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

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 by: Chris Angelico - Thu, 5 May 2022 03:02 UTC

On Thu, 5 May 2022 at 12:57, Avi Gross via Python-list
<python-list@python.org> wrote:
>
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonBooks
>

That's an incredibly daunting list, and not something I'd overly
strongly recommend, but yes, if you want to get a dead-tree or e-book
to read, there are quite a lot of options available.

ChrisA

Re: Python/New/Learn

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 by: Dan Stromberg - Thu, 5 May 2022 03:05 UTC

If you already know at least one other imperative programming language:
https://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/Programmers

If you don't:
https://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide/NonProgrammers

On Wed, May 4, 2022 at 7:49 PM Patrick 0511 <killerkomando12@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hello, I'm completely new here and don't know anything about python. Can
> someone tell me how best to start? So what things should I learn first?
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

Re: Python/New/Learn

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 by: Avi Gross - Thu, 5 May 2022 03:14 UTC

Chris,
It was an extremely open-ended question to a forum where most of the readers are more advanced, at least I think.

My library has oodles of Python Books for free to borrow on paper and return and I have read many of them. There are various e-books too, and of course lots of free internet resources including videos and on-line courses.

If he wants simpler books, the web pages pointed here too:

https://wiki.python.org/moin/IntroductoryBooks

Next time, I won't try to be helpful and brief and just be silent.

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
To: python-list@python.org <python-list@python.org>
Sent: Wed, May 4, 2022 11:02 pm
Subject: Re: Python/New/Learn

On Thu, 5 May 2022 at 12:57, Avi Gross via Python-list
<python-list@python.org> wrote:
>
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonBooks
>

That's an incredibly daunting list, and not something I'd overly
strongly recommend, but yes, if you want to get a dead-tree or e-book
to read, there are quite a lot of options available.

ChrisA
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

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 by: Chris Angelico - Thu, 5 May 2022 03:21 UTC

On Thu, 5 May 2022 at 13:14, Avi Gross <avigross@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> It was an extremely open-ended question to a forum where
> most of the readers are more advanced, at least I think.
>
>
> My library has oodles of Python Books for free to borrow on paper and
> return and I have read many of them. There are various e-books too, and
> of course lots of free internet resources including videos and on-line courses.
>
>
> If he wants simpler books, the web pages pointed here too:
>
>
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/IntroductoryBooks
>
>
> Next time, I won't try to be helpful and brief and just be silent.
>

Being helpful is great, it's just that being brief can leave it as an
incredibly scary-looking list :) If you want to recommend a couple of
specific books, I think that would be a lot more helpful.

ChrisA

Re: Python/New/Learn

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 by: Avi Gross - Thu, 5 May 2022 03:46 UTC

I agree Chris that the Ukrainian Python Books are daunting as I barely started learning that language now even though my early years were just a few miles away and I might even have relatives still there!

But as has been pointed out, suggestions are more helpful if you know a bit more about the one asking the questions or it is too broad. I do not feel qualified to suggest a book to true beginners as I leaned Python many decades after learning so many other computer languages and read a wide variety of books including many that assumed you already knew C or R or other languages, as I did. 

Someone new to programming may fin some resources including a tutorial handy. Someone who actually wants to use various modules like scikit-learn or pandas, or to solve specific problems, might well want to go straight to other resources or realize they need multiple resources over time.

It can be a diversion to get someone to learn the functional programming aspects or even object-oriented if the goal is to do simple procedural things. Python is an extremely rich language and I recall reading a three-volume encyclopedia that took months as the books got pulled away by other readers. So, no Mark Lutz got a bit advanced.

Oddly, I am learning Julia now and cannot find a single book in my group of Libraries, not even for the beginner I am not! But finding online resources was easy and if I have any reason to, plenty of books can be bought. It does not work for everybody, but my personal method is to attack issues and problems from multiple directions as each tends to reinforce and add to my knowledge. And I really appreciate when they tell you specifically how the language is different from others you may know so you know when not to expect it to work. A Julia documentation as an example, has a long list of places it is not like Python, or R or C++ and so on. If the person has computer language experience, some such resource might be better than something spending a thousand pages to teach from scratch.

But, I am not volunteering to do personal tutoring. I prefer responding to specific focused questions especially after the person seems to have done some searching and research and reading on their own and maybe even shares some code and asks what may be wrong with it or ...
And my first question would be why they chose to ask about Python. Was it their choice or required for a course or job or ...
Sometimes the answer is to use something else they already know, albeit Python is a very decent language for many uses and well-worth learning even if you know others.

-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
To: Avi Gross <avigross@verizon.net>
Cc: python-list@python.org <python-list@python.org>
Sent: Wed, May 4, 2022 11:21 pm
Subject: Re: Python/New/Learn

On Thu, 5 May 2022 at 13:14, Avi Gross <avigross@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> It was an extremely open-ended question to a forum where
> most of the readers are more advanced, at least I think.
>
>
> My library has oodles of Python Books for free to borrow on paper and
> return and I have read many of them. There are various e-books too, and
> of course lots of free internet resources including videos and on-line courses.
>
>
> If he wants simpler books, the web pages pointed here too:
>
>
> https://wiki.python.org/moin/IntroductoryBooks
>
>
> Next time, I won't try to be helpful and brief and just be silent.
>

Being helpful is great, it's just that being brief can leave it as an
incredibly scary-looking list :) If you want to recommend a couple of
specific books, I think that would be a lot more helpful.

ChrisA

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 by: Alan Gauld - Thu, 5 May 2022 07:01 UTC

On 05/05/2022 02:36, Patrick 0511 wrote:
> Hello, I'm completely new here and don't know anything about python.

Do you know any other programming languages?
That makes a huge difference in what you should start with!

> Can someone tell me how best to start?
> So what things should I learn first?

Others have already made recommendations.

I'll add that there is a dedicated python ttutor list for
those just learning to ask questions. It is slightly more
tolerant of "silly" questions and rookie mistakes than
the main list here.

You'll also find most of the discussions there will be
closer to your level than the more advanced topics that
get addressed here.

Finally, I have a tutorial aimed at complete beginners,
see the link below...

--
Alan G
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.alan-g.me.uk/
http://www.amazon.com/author/alan_gauld
Follow my photo-blog on Flickr at:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alangauldphotos

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 by: Schachner, Joseph - Thu, 5 May 2022 16:04 UTC

Buy the book "Python 101" and do the examples. When you're done with that buy the book "Python 201" and study it. There is much more than is in both those books that you could learn about Python, but that's a very good way to start.
--- Joseph S.

Teledyne Confidential; Commercially Sensitive Business Data
-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick 0511 <killerkomando12@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2022 9:36 PM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Python/New/Learn
Hello, I'm completely new here and don't know anything about python. Can someone tell me how best to start? So what things should I learn first?

Re: Python/New/Learn

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 by: Mats Wichmann - Thu, 5 May 2022 17:59 UTC

On 5/4/22 19:36, Patrick 0511 wrote:
> Hello, I'm completely new here and don't know anything about python. Can someone tell me how best to start? So what things should I learn first?

If you know what kinds of learning experiences work best for you, that
might help. For some people, books, or written tutorials are effective.
For some, it's just dive in and start doing projects, referring to,
say, StackOverflow when you get stuck. Without having any data at all
on it, just my impressions, more people these days learn from in-person
or video experiences. There are several free video courses (see for
example, without any implied endorsement,
https://www.freecodecamp.org/), and some that cost but not very expensive.

Depends on what floats your boat.

Re: Python/New/Learn

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 by: Avi Gross - Thu, 5 May 2022 23:48 UTC

Before more people reply to this user, I note I have not seen them reply back to the list about any questions or comments others have taken the time to provide.
My warning bells go off when I see patterns and there was a similar request from another gmail account to an R language forum I am also on. They wanted help in learning programming (especially R) and claimed not to have any source to study. As we keep pointing out, you can trivially find sources including many free ones.
So I wonder if there is  point being sucked in by one or more people who don't even continue a conversation and perhaps are not even listening but just playing us to make us waste time. Or, maybe they are asking on multiple places to decide which to choose and are not saying so.
Am I paranoid? Nah! But yes, a bit wary. I get so many kinds of SPAM in mail and phone calls and lately keep getting calls asking if I want to sell my house ...

-----Original Message-----
From: Schachner, Joseph <Joseph.Schachner@Teledyne.com>
To: Patrick 0511 <killerkomando12@gmail.com>; python-list@python.org <python-list@python.org>
Sent: Thu, May 5, 2022 12:04 pm
Subject: RE: Python/New/Learn

Buy the book "Python 101" and do the examples.  When you're done with that buy the book "Python 201" and study it.  There is much more than is in both those books that you could learn about Python, but that's a very good way to start.

--- Joseph S.

Teledyne Confidential; Commercially Sensitive Business Data

-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick 0511 <killerkomando12@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2022 9:36 PM
To: python-list@python.org
Subject: Python/New/Learn

Hello, I'm completely new here and don't know anything about python. Can someone tell me how best to start? So what things should I learn first?
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python/New/Learn

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Subject: Re: Python/New/Learn
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<abf60db3-b324-677a-9cd8-85ff0153ebdb@wichmann.us>
 by: Grant Edwards - Thu, 5 May 2022 23:51 UTC

On 2022-05-05, Mats Wichmann <mats@wichmann.us> wrote:

> Without having any data at all on it, just my impressions, more
> people these days learn from in-person or video experiences.

I've always been utterly baffled by video tutorials for
programming. There must be people who prefer that format, but it seems
like absolutely the worst possible option for me. You can't cut/paste
snippets from the examples. You have to constantly pause them so you
can try out examples. Sometimes it's not even easy to read the
examples. Perhaps if there was an accompanying web page or PDF...

> Depends on what floats your boat.

Indeed.

Of course there are the written tutorials where the examples don't
actually work -- that's always fun.

--
Grant

Re: Python/New/Learn

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 by: Chris Angelico - Fri, 6 May 2022 01:55 UTC

On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 09:53, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 2022-05-05, Mats Wichmann <mats@wichmann.us> wrote:
>
> > Without having any data at all on it, just my impressions, more
> > people these days learn from in-person or video experiences.
>
> I've always been utterly baffled by video tutorials for
> programming. There must be people who prefer that format, but it seems
> like absolutely the worst possible option for me. You can't cut/paste
> snippets from the examples. You have to constantly pause them so you
> can try out examples. Sometimes it's not even easy to read the
> examples. Perhaps if there was an accompanying web page or PDF...
>

Video tutorials make GREAT sense for learning complicated programs
like Adobe PhotoShop or some 3D game design engines, because (a) most
of what you need is in the menus somewhere, but it's hard to find; (b)
you can aim the tutorial at a specific version, and it'll be the same
for all users; and (c) you can talk about it at the same speed that
people can follow along.

Video tutorials do NOT make sense for anything where you'll be using
your own editor, typing in code, and having it behave the same way.
There's nothing to point-and-click, and everything to type.

But some people start making tutorials of the first kind, and then go
on to make some of the second kind, thinking they'll also be useful.

ChrisA

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 by: o1bigtenor - Fri, 6 May 2022 11:37 UTC

As we're now discussing tutorial methods - - - -

On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 8:57 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 09:53, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 2022-05-05, Mats Wichmann <mats@wichmann.us> wrote:
> >
> > > Without having any data at all on it, just my impressions, more
> > > people these days learn from in-person or video experiences.
> >
> > I've always been utterly baffled by video tutorials for
> > programming. There must be people who prefer that format, but it seems
> > like absolutely the worst possible option for me. You can't cut/paste
> > snippets from the examples. You have to constantly pause them so you
> > can try out examples. Sometimes it's not even easy to read the
> > examples. Perhaps if there was an accompanying web page or PDF...
> >
>
> Video tutorials make GREAT sense for learning complicated programs
> like Adobe PhotoShop or some 3D game design engines, because (a) most
> of what you need is in the menus somewhere, but it's hard to find; (b)
> you can aim the tutorial at a specific version, and it'll be the same
> for all users; and (c) you can talk about it at the same speed that
> people can follow along.

Respectfully - - - I would disagree. FreeCAD is a mind bogglingly
complex architecture (a lumping together of a lot of things without a real
central vision imo in fact) and a video tutorial would seem to make sense
- - - except - - - trying to see what is being done is at best tricky - - - at
worse - - - impossible. If the instructions were text - - - well you could do
things one step at a time and you wouldn't have to scroll back and forth 10
times trying to see exactly which part of what was the mouse applied
to and then which toolbar . . . . One would think that something that
you manipulate visually would be best served by video instruction.

Personally I find video instruction the most difficult to follow and the most
awkward. And then if the speaker is not easily understandable or is using
translated terms (not necessarily the same as those in the program
itself) well - - - the frustration level is most definitely NOT small and
the amount of learning - - - not that large - - - especially given the
effort needed to create video tutorials. IMO video is too often used
because its there - - - not because this enhances the experience.

(Or the instructor is an academic who is reading their video screens
- - - you know - - - like the 85 or 90% of the profs at the uni - - - - )
>
> Video tutorials do NOT make sense for anything where you'll be using
> your own editor, typing in code, and having it behave the same way.
> There's nothing to point-and-click, and everything to type.
>
> But some people start making tutorials of the first kind, and then go
> on to make some of the second kind, thinking they'll also be useful.
>
I think you, that is Chris, are a very generous person. My experience
has been that many consider video tutorials to be cool or sexy or of the
highest art - - - and never even consider the uncool, mundane, boring,
old, text option.

I'm wondering if the difference is that in general education itself less
and less emphasis is placed on reading (and comprehension) skills.
This fits alongside a return to pictographic language supposedly to
assist in multi-lingual barrier reduction.

I will cease and desist - - - (thanks for even 'listening')

Pace

Re: Python/New/Learn

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 by: 2QdxY4Rz...@potatochowder.com - Fri, 6 May 2022 12:56 UTC

On 2022-05-05 at 16:51:49 -0700,
Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2022-05-05, Mats Wichmann <mats@wichmann.us> wrote:
>
> > Without having any data at all on it, just my impressions, more
> > people these days learn from in-person or video experiences.
>
> I've always been utterly baffled by video tutorials for
> programming. There must be people who prefer that format, but it seems
> like absolutely the worst possible option for me. You can't cut/paste
> snippets from the examples. You have to constantly pause them so you
> can try out examples. Sometimes it's not even easy to read the
> examples. Perhaps if there was an accompanying web page or PDF...

+1 (maybe more), except that an accompanying web page or PDF only solves
the problem of copying/pasting examples badly, at the expense of the
cognitive load to keep track of one more thing (because it's highly
unlikely that the web page or PDF tracks the video "automatically").

As far as easy-to-read examples go, writing them down doesn't always
help. One of my physics textbooks used upsilon and nu to describe some
phenomenon related to lasers. IIRC, the text, the math, and the physics
were pretty straightforward, until you looked at the fraction υ/ν in
something resembling Times Roman Italic (although, to be fair, once you
got that far, it was pretty obvious that it was upsilon over nu rather
than nu over upsilon).

Re: Python/New/Learn

<mailman.323.1651852738.20749.python-list@python.org>

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 by: Avi Gross - Fri, 6 May 2022 15:59 UTC

This topic has rapidly shifted over way beyond Python even as the original person has not returned to participate.

There are many ways to teach anything and since the classical method was to learn in person from someone using mainly sound or pantomime, it has hung on. Even with the existence of writing, books were made one at a time and were rare.

In more recent times, the norm shifted gradually from lectures to individuals and groups to include textbooks and illustrations and eventually recordings or PowerPoint Slides with animation.

Realistically, learning some things on your own is easy enough but for many people and many subjects, you need interaction, reinforcement and more. 

We have college professors who repeat almost the same identical lectures for years to various audiences and also take few or no questions. they might as well be recorded  and find something better to do. But how do you learn French just from a book when it is completely not obvious how to pronounce anything given the weird spelling and grammar rules? How do you know if the dialect you use swallows some sounds or stretches them out a bit? For this you need to hear and perhaps see native speakers and correlate those sounds to the written words and learn to recognize and make them a habit. Even better, you often want someone to listen to what you try to say and respond and help guide you.

Many Computer topics have an interesting side in that access to a computer running whatever you are learning can give you much experience and guidance as you can try various things and see how they work. Written text alone may be enough to learn what is special about a language and a set of problems to work on (or your own exploration) may be able to replace much of human interaction.

You can look at learning systems such as COURSERA where they often break a "class" into parts that can include often shorter video clips often with subtitles or transcripts alongside it, as well as various kinds of printed material including tests and assignments and even ways (in some programming courses) to write small programs that are evaluated immediately by running them through the language program, or by having others (sometimes fellow students) grade them and return the results to you.

There are many ideas out there how to learn. One of the worst is huge lecture halls with no rewind ...

But text-only learning tools vary quite a bit and some of the better ones do not just throw facts at you but stop periodically and give you an overview of the goals and maybe add a touch of history that provides context on why some innovation was such a big improvement over what had been done and help you pronounce things when it is not obvious by saying that many people say a function name to rhyme with this or ...

I used to hate Math textbooks that used every imaginable symbol and assumed you knew how to say every Greek letter and script L and integral symbol and an assortment of braces and brackets in various sizes and much more.  It is hard to memorize formulas where you call lots of items by the name of "squiggle"!

Python currently sticks largely to using standard ASCII characters so it has fewer issues to deal with. For people who are not native English speakers, though, some things may not be intuitively obvious, let alone pronounceable. I suspect for some purposes, a few lectures to listen to might help if well-designed. 
But I noticed how in Julia, they allow all kinds of symbols but also provide a way to make them fairly easily. Still their use of an actual lower-case epsilon as a synonym for "in" is an example of how teaching Julia may need more thantext for some people. It uses lots of unusual symbols for operators too thatare often familiar to mathematicians and hardly anyone else.
for i ∈ 1:10
-----Original Message-----
From: 2QdxY4RzWzUUiLuE@potatochowder.com
To: python-list@python.org
Sent: Fri, May 6, 2022 8:56 am
Subject: Re: Python/New/Learn

On 2022-05-05 at 16:51:49 -0700,
Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2022-05-05, Mats Wichmann <mats@wichmann.us> wrote:
>
> > Without having any data at all on it, just my impressions, more
> > people these days learn from in-person or video experiences.
>
> I've always been utterly baffled by video tutorials for
> programming. There must be people who prefer that format, but it seems
> like absolutely the worst possible option for me. You can't cut/paste
> snippets from the examples. You have to constantly pause them so you
> can try out examples. Sometimes it's not even easy to read the
> examples. Perhaps if there was an accompanying web page or PDF...

+1 (maybe more), except that an accompanying web page or PDF only solves
the problem of copying/pasting examples badly, at the expense of the
cognitive load to keep track of one more thing (because it's highly
unlikely that the web page or PDF tracks the video "automatically").

As far as easy-to-read examples go, writing them down doesn't always
help.  One of my physics textbooks used upsilon and nu to describe some
phenomenon related to lasers.  IIRC, the text, the math, and the physics
were pretty straightforward, until you looked at the fraction υ/ν in
something resembling Times Roman Italic (although, to be fair, once you
got that far, it was pretty obvious that it was upsilon over nu rather
than nu over upsilon).
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: Python/New/Learn

<French-20220506201813@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>

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 by: Stefan Ram - Fri, 6 May 2022 19:18 UTC

Avi Gross <avigross@verizon.net> writes:
>But how do you learn French just from a book when it
>is completely not obvious how to pronounce anything
>given the weird spelling and grammar rules?

In

Le Français par la Méthode Nature
by Arthur M. Jensen,

there are many texts to learn French from, and
under each line of text, there is another line
with the pronunciation in phonetic notation.

Grammar rules are also explained in good text
books.

To learn even more about French pronunciation (or grammar)
one can get books that deal exlusively with the pronunciation
(or grammar, respectively) of French in excrutiating detail.
For pronunciation, I'd recommend

French Pronunciation & Accents
by Luciano Canepari

(not necessarily as a first text for beginners).

Re: Python/New/Learn

<pronunciation-20220506213143@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>

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 by: Stefan Ram - Fri, 6 May 2022 20:32 UTC

(OT)

ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>To learn even more about French pronunciation (or grammar)
>one can get books that deal exlusively with the pronunciation
>(or grammar, respectively) of French in excrutiating detail.

For one example: in "Traité de prononciation française", 2nd
edn., Paris, 1969 by Pierre Fouché, the topic of the "e muet"
alone takes 50 pages!

Re: Python/New/Learn

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 by: dn - Fri, 6 May 2022 21:52 UTC

To the OP: there are many MOOCs available on the likes of the Coursera
and edX platform. (rationale, below)

Disclaimer: I work on courses on the edX platform (but not Python).

On 06/05/2022 23.37, o1bigtenor wrote:
> As we're now discussing tutorial methods - - - -
>
> On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 8:57 PM Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 at 09:53, Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2022-05-05, Mats Wichmann <mats@wichmann.us> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Without having any data at all on it, just my impressions, more
>>>> people these days learn from in-person or video experiences.
>>>
>>> I've always been utterly baffled by video tutorials for
>>> programming. There must be people who prefer that format, but it seems
>>> like absolutely the worst possible option for me. You can't cut/paste
>>> snippets from the examples. You have to constantly pause them so you
>>> can try out examples. Sometimes it's not even easy to read the
>>> examples. Perhaps if there was an accompanying web page or PDF...
>>>
>>
>> Video tutorials make GREAT sense for learning complicated programs
>> like Adobe PhotoShop or some 3D game design engines, because (a) most
>> of what you need is in the menus somewhere, but it's hard to find; (b)
>> you can aim the tutorial at a specific version, and it'll be the same
>> for all users; and (c) you can talk about it at the same speed that
>> people can follow along.
>
> Respectfully - - - I would disagree. FreeCAD is a mind bogglingly
> complex architecture (a lumping together of a lot of things without a real
> central vision imo in fact) and a video tutorial would seem to make sense
> - - - except - - - trying to see what is being done is at best tricky - - - at
> worse - - - impossible. If the instructions were text - - - well you could do
> things one step at a time and you wouldn't have to scroll back and forth 10
> times trying to see exactly which part of what was the mouse applied
> to and then which toolbar . . . . One would think that something that
> you manipulate visually would be best served by video instruction.
>
> Personally I find video instruction the most difficult to follow and the most
> awkward. And then if the speaker is not easily understandable or is using
> translated terms (not necessarily the same as those in the program
> itself) well - - - the frustration level is most definitely NOT small and
> the amount of learning - - - not that large - - - especially given the
> effort needed to create video tutorials. IMO video is too often used
> because its there - - - not because this enhances the experience.
>
> (Or the instructor is an academic who is reading their video screens
> - - - you know - - - like the 85 or 90% of the profs at the uni - - - - )
>>
>> Video tutorials do NOT make sense for anything where you'll be using
>> your own editor, typing in code, and having it behave the same way.
>> There's nothing to point-and-click, and everything to type.
>>
>> But some people start making tutorials of the first kind, and then go
>> on to make some of the second kind, thinking they'll also be useful.
>>
> I think you, that is Chris, are a very generous person. My experience
> has been that many consider video tutorials to be cool or sexy or of the
> highest art - - - and never even consider the uncool, mundane, boring,
> old, text option.
>
> I'm wondering if the difference is that in general education itself less
> and less emphasis is placed on reading (and comprehension) skills.
> This fits alongside a return to pictographic language supposedly to
> assist in multi-lingual barrier reduction.

To all:

The problem with some of the advice given in this thread, eg using
StackOverflow or YouTube videos, is that a beginner (particularly) has
no measure of the material's quality. Both platforms are riddled with
utter-junk - even 'dangerous' advice.

Some of such posted-content has been encouraged by 'teachers' who think
the old adage "to understand something properly one must be able to
explain it to someone else" can be translated into an (effective)
learning practice. Which is fine, until the results are posted on a
public forum without any qualitative assessment - I've even come-across
'teachers' (the quote-marks could be taken to indicate serious question
or in some cases, disdain) who think that allowing/encouraging students
to post such is "encouraging the student". Sadly, (IMHO) its effect is
'intellectual pollution' for those who come-after, and the generation of
an unrealistic ego/self-assessment on the part of the post-er.

Then there are others which have been posted by well-meaning
individuals. These may be motivated, similarly, by ego or altruism. Few
know what they're doing (from a training PoV) and the fact that some
such contributors stand-out so far about 'the crowd' speaks to this. How
many have you seen which fail to account for the differences between
your system and the one the author uses? How many seem determined to
show that by clicking 'here' and selecting 'there', the most complex of
environments can be 'mastered' by anyone, clickety-click - without a
single 'if this (step) goes wrong, here's what you might see/need to do...?

The advantage of a text-book, which has been properly and competently
edited and reviewed, is that the content has passed the 'many eyes'
test. Each explanation has been examined critically, and is no longer
(only) the author's own view-point, way of explaining, or even opinion;
of how things could/should be done.

There is little learning-value in asking people to learn-by-typing -
although I suppose one might learn something of the importance of
accurate syntax. (how could an author hope to cover all the possible
errors of this type that a learner might make whilst transcribing 'my
first Python program[me]'?) This is why many texts offer a download, and
why my in-person classes start with trainees being given code-sets to
edit/customise.

When we set up our MOOC (remember, not Python, but the message is much
the same) we swallowed two lots of 'Kool Aid'. Firstly, that 'the modern
student' wants everything on video. Secondly, that 'long lectures' are
'out', and we should look at +/- seven minute talks.

The edX platform provides excellent usage statistics, both on a cohort
basis, and over time. These reveal (as a group) that most trainees
either don't start, or certainly don't finish, an entire video - without
regard for 'length'. Surprise!

Unfortunately, the stats don't differentiate between a person watching a
video for the first (and only) time, and someone who goes back to watch
it again, eg after attempting a quiz/progress challenge, not doing well,
and wanting to review. However, the more 'repeat views' that have taken
place, imply that the average must shift to revealing more-and-more
trainees who don't even open the video.

The 'lecture' advice does fit with the way people organise self-paced
study in-and-amongst all the other facets of life. Many working
full-time, find that a 'short burst' can be managed whenever an
opportunity presents itself - even during a commuter bus-ride. Whereas
one would have to make a more deliberate plan to sit down for one whole
hour at a time.

Yes, it can be more complicated to design a sensible (alternate)
presentation-structure. However, as we have discovered, this works well
for 'us' as well. Replacing a long video-based lecture is much more
expensive than replacing a short one, eg if a new feature has been added
by a recent software-release - particularly if we are only talking about
a small 'tweak'.

The claimed-advantage of MOOCs is that trainees from anywhere in the
world can access 'the best' in the world - usually this is a claim
against the institution, but sometimes deservedly, the lecturer. I have
to say though, some of these claims are not justified. A staff-member at
a local-institution might have a much better explanation! I'm distressed
by many (usually American) institutions claiming world-status but who
use teaching-techniques that remind me of my own days as an under-grad
years, um-er, many (many) decades ago. The world has turned, and
moved-on! Similarly, there is a considerable difference between the
teaching styles used in much of Asia, eg India and China; and the more
student-centered approaches used in 'the west'. Would you prefer to
write some code-examples using simple data-structures, or to sit down
and be tested on your ability to recall the range of list-methods and
their parameters?

The 'professionals' will often have a veritable studio and likely
video-staff involved in ensuring the output-standard (similar to above
reference to books and 'reviewers'). This ensures that as many 'takes'
as necessary are performed to ensure quality. Whereas our 'YouTubers'
works are frequently punctuated by 'ers', 'ums', and re-typing errors
during demos, and the like - a 'stream of consciousness approach'. Our
course-structure considerations extend down to the detailed-level of
'story boards' detailing which topic will be covered 'when', how it will
be covered, what the sequence will be, and so-on. This means that 'my
first Python program[me]' will not be confused with 'how to install the
Python interpreter' - another lesson the earnest-YouTubers could emulate
to-advantage (also likely the +/- seven minutes advice).


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Python/New/Learn

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From: ram...@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram)
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Subject: Re: Python/New/Learn
Date: 7 May 2022 00:27:01 GMT
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 by: Stefan Ram - Sat, 7 May 2022 00:27 UTC

ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>Avi Gross <avigross@verizon.net> writes:
>>But how do you learn French just from a book when it
>>is completely not obvious how to pronounce anything
>>given the weird spelling and grammar rules?
>In
>Le Français par la Méthode Nature
>by Arthur M. Jensen,
>there are many texts to learn French from, and
>under each line of text, there is another line
>with the pronunciation in phonetic notation.

[Some Unicode characters used below!]

TL;DR It actually can be better to learn pronunciation
from a written book than by listening to native speakers.

I must add that adults have lost the ability to hear sounds
in speech. Instead they hear "phonemes" which are sounds
corrected to the sounds of their native language. The ears
of adults thus have lost the ability to actually hear the
sounds of other languages. This can be compared to someone
seeing "ɑ" and "a" to be the same letter, because the
difference between the word "filenɑme" and the word
"filename" does not matter in his language. When such a
man than has to see the difference in a different language
where it matters, he just does not see it!

For example, to Germans "bed" and "bad" sound the same,
because Germans don't have the "bad" sound in their language.
They have the "bed" sound, and when they hear "bad",
their ears tell them 'someone said "bed"', because to
their ears, there is no "bad" sound", so when a sound
is somewhere in the vicinity of the "bed" sound, it must
have been the "bed" - which strategy is helpful to better
understand /German/ speech.

(If your newsreader does not show you the Unicode character
"ɑ", that illustrates my point even better, because that
newsreader's not being able to display the character is like
your ears not being able to make you hear the sound of
foreign languages.)

So, the idea that one can hear a foreign language by
/listening/ might actually betray people. It's similar
to what Bob Dylan wrote:

|All he believes are his eyes
|And his eyes, they just tell him lies

just with the ears, not with the eyes. And that's why
people have an "accent" when they speak a foreign language
even after having heard the correct pronunciation from
native speakers repeatedly (and they cannot even hear that
they have this accent, because to their own ears what they
say sounds exactly like what the native speaker says).

But when you read descriptions in books about phonology about
how the mouth and tongue is positioned to produce certain
sounds and see pictures of this, your faulty ears are bypassed
and you get a chance to produce the correct sounds of the
foreign language even when you might not hear the difference.
Good phonology books should also help one to become aware of
all these processes and to become aware of one's limitations.

So, one might actually be able to learn the pronunciation
of a foreign language from text in a book better than from
an audio tape (or an audio file or a video with sound)!

Re: Python/New/Learn

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Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Subject: Re: Python/New/Learn
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 14:07:53 +1200
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 by: Greg Ewing - Sat, 7 May 2022 02:07 UTC

On 7/05/22 12:27 pm, Stefan Ram wrote:
> But when you read descriptions in books about phonology about
> how the mouth and tongue is positioned to produce certain
> sounds and see pictures of this, your faulty ears are bypassed
> and you get a chance to produce the correct sounds of the
> foreign language even when you might not hear the difference.
>
> So, one might actually be able to learn the pronunciation
> of a foreign language from text in a book better than from
> an audio tape (or an audio file or a video with sound)!

Such books would certainly help, but I don't think there's any
substitute for actually hearing the sounds if you want to be
able to understand the spoken language. In my experience, you
have to listen to it for quite a while to retrain your ears
to the point where you can even begin to pick out words from
the audio stream.

I kind-of studied French for 5 years in school, with teachers
to learn the pronunication from, but I never got a lot of
practice at it or much chance to hear it spoken. As a result I
have about a 1% success rate at understanding spoken French,
even when I know all the words being used.

--
Greg

Re: Python/New/Learn

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 by: Peter J. Holzer - Sat, 7 May 2022 08:19 UTC
Attachments: signature.asc (application/pgp-signature)

On 2022-05-07 14:07:53 +1200, Greg Ewing wrote:
> On 7/05/22 12:27 pm, Stefan Ram wrote:
> > So, one might actually be able to learn the pronunciation
> > of a foreign language from text in a book better than from
> > an audio tape (or an audio file or a video with sound)!
>
> Such books would certainly help, but I don't think there's any
> substitute for actually hearing the sounds if you want to be
> able to understand the spoken language.

I think "learning to understand the spoken language" and "learning to
speak without a (foreign) accent" are two different things. I agree that
the former needs exposure to actual people talking (preferably in real
life, where people talk fast, slur endings, omit words, hem and haw,
talk over each other ...). For learning to speak without an accent, just
listening (or talking) to native speakers is probably not sufficient for
the reasons Stefan mentioned plus another one: Outside of a classroom
people usually won't correct your mistakes unless you say something
truly incomprehensible or unintentionally funny. However I don't think a
book is sufficient either: Most people are probably even worse at
observing the position of their various mouth parts while speaking than
at listening, so without feedback from a native speaker (preferably a
trained voice coach) they can't really tell whether they are doing it
right.

hp

--
_ | Peter J. Holzer | Story must make more sense than reality.
|_|_) | |
| | | hjp@hjp.at | -- Charles Stross, "Creative writing
__/ | http://www.hjp.at/ | challenge!"

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Re: Python/New/Learn

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Subject: Re: Python/New/Learn
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 by: Stefan Ram - Sat, 7 May 2022 10:47 UTC

Greg Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> writes:
>Such books would certainly help, but I don't think there's any
>substitute for actually hearing the sounds if you want to be
>able to understand the spoken language. In my experience, you
>have to listen to it for quite a while to retrain your ears
>to the point where you can even begin to pick out words from
>the audio stream.

Yes, I totally agree to that!

Re: Python/New/Learn

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 by: o1bigtenor - Sat, 7 May 2022 16:08 UTC

On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 3:29 AM Peter J. Holzer <hjp-python@hjp.at> wrote:
>
> On 2022-05-07 14:07:53 +1200, Greg Ewing wrote:
> > On 7/05/22 12:27 pm, Stefan Ram wrote:
> > > So, one might actually be able to learn the pronunciation
> > > of a foreign language from text in a book better than from
> > > an audio tape (or an audio file or a video with sound)!
> >
> > Such books would certainly help, but I don't think there's any
> > substitute for actually hearing the sounds if you want to be
> > able to understand the spoken language.
>
> I think "learning to understand the spoken language" and "learning to
> speak without a (foreign) accent" are two different things. I agree that
> the former needs exposure to actual people talking (preferably in real
> life, where people talk fast, slur endings, omit words, hem and haw,
> talk over each other ...). For learning to speak without an accent, just
> listening (or talking) to native speakers is probably not sufficient for
> the reasons Stefan mentioned plus another one: Outside of a classroom
> people usually won't correct your mistakes unless you say something
> truly incomprehensible or unintentionally funny. However I don't think a
> book is sufficient either: Most people are probably even worse at
> observing the position of their various mouth parts while speaking than
> at listening, so without feedback from a native speaker (preferably a
> trained voice coach) they can't really tell whether they are doing it
> right.
>
>

Hmmm - - - - fascinating discussion on language learning.
I would suggest that adults CAN learn other languages.
One factor that hasn't been mentioned is the musicality of
the individual. I added 3 languages, to varying degrees, as
an adult and have done some functioning in about 5 more
than the 3 that I developed through childhood and early youth.
the use of the IPA (international phonetics alphabet) was
encouraged in my formal studies, to be done on my own
time and fashion, and its use was very very helpful for
much in this area.

As far as learning to speak without an accent - - - that does not
necessarily coincide with actual knowledge - - - imo there is
a definite difference between a language 'in the ear' and 'in the
mind'. I have found each language to feel different in both the
mouth AND in the brain (and have found the differences quite
fascinating).

Thank you for very very interesting discussions - - - lol - - - which
perhaps should have early on be relabelled as OT - - - grin!

Pace

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