(i name it pythonic as it is popular in some memes but
i considered it in c 20 about years ago not knowing python them,
nut i may name it pythonic here )

it is considered elegant but i think if it can stand in very purified
new c syntax and as for now its not celar for me

this basic purified new c syntax is still not fully clear to me thopugh
some insights was worked out

in my opinion there should be tendency to mostly use space in purified syntax, then eventualy parenthesis (), comma i guess should be rather used
as separator of power close to newline rather than 'gluer' for structures
(though this im not sure) , it is becouse , is better than ; tha last one should eventualy separate blocks etc, and = is not so much good at all

but if so that woudl mean a,b=c,d wouldnt work
instead one would rather use (a b) c d

but the question is somewhat open

niedziela, 5 marca 2023 o 13:40:21 UTC+1 fir napisał(a):
> (i name it pythonic as it is popular in some memes but
> i considered it in c 20 about years ago not knowing python them,
> nut i may name it pythonic here )
>
> it is considered elegant but i think if it can stand in very purified
> new c syntax and as for now its not celar for me
>
> this basic purified new c syntax is still not fully clear to me thopugh
> some insights was worked out
>
> in my opinion there should be tendency to mostly use space in purified syntax, then eventualy parenthesis (), comma i guess should be rather used
> as separator of power close to newline rather than 'gluer' for structures
> (though this im not sure) , it is becouse , is better than ; tha last one should eventualy separate blocks etc, and = is not so much good at all
>
> but if so that woudl mean a,b=c,d wouldnt work
> instead one would rather use (a b) c d
>

nah, it also wouldnt work..i forgot i promote calling so a b is a(b) not a vector..
so it shows this basic purified syntex is still not established
> but the question is somewhat open

On Sunday, 5 March 2023 at 12:40:21 UTC, fir wrote:
> (i name it pythonic as it is popular in some memes but
> i considered it in c 20 about years ago not knowing python them,
> nut i may name it pythonic here )
>
> it is considered elegant but i think if it can stand in very purified
> new c syntax and as for now its not celar for me
>
> this basic purified new c syntax is still not fully clear to me thopugh
> some insights was worked out
>
> in my opinion there should be tendency to mostly use space in purified syntax, then eventualy parenthesis (), comma i guess should be rather used
> as separator of power close to newline rather than 'gluer' for structures
> (though this im not sure) , it is becouse , is better than ; tha last one should eventualy separate blocks etc, and = is not so much good at all
>
> but if so that woudl mean a,b=c,d wouldnt work
> instead one would rather use (a b) c d

The concept is OK. The problem is existing C syntax: the 'comma operator' makes a lot of things troublesome:

You have to write A[i][j] instead of A[i,j], becomes the latter means 'i; A[i]'.

And a,b = c, d means something like a; b=c; d;

I use this elsewhere as (a,b) = (c,d), but has the same problem in C.

So you need to find a syntax that works with C. Unless of course this is something new, and you've decided to do away with the comma operator.

niedziela, 5 marca 2023 o 16:42:32 UTC+1 bart c napisał(a):
> On Sunday, 5 March 2023 at 12:40:21 UTC, fir wrote:
> > (i name it pythonic as it is popular in some memes but
> > i considered it in c 20 about years ago not knowing python them,
> > nut i may name it pythonic here )
> >
> > it is considered elegant but i think if it can stand in very purified
> > new c syntax and as for now its not celar for me
> >
> > this basic purified new c syntax is still not fully clear to me thopugh
> > some insights was worked out
> >
> > in my opinion there should be tendency to mostly use space in purified syntax, then eventualy parenthesis (), comma i guess should be rather used
> > as separator of power close to newline rather than 'gluer' for structures
> > (though this im not sure) , it is becouse , is better than ; tha last one should eventualy separate blocks etc, and = is not so much good at all
> >
> > but if so that woudl mean a,b=c,d wouldnt work
> > instead one would rather use (a b) c d
> The concept is OK. The problem is existing C syntax: the 'comma operator' makes a lot of things troublesome:
>
> You have to write A[i][j] instead of A[i,j], becomes the latter means 'i; A[i]'.
>
> And a,b = c, d means something like a; b=c; d;
>
> I use this elsewhere as (a,b) = (c,d), but has the same problem in C.
>
> So you need to find a syntax that works with C. Unless of course this is something new, and you've decided to do away with the comma operator.

its heavily problematic, comma may be treated as separator or gluer (by gluer i mean something that establishes vector/tuple) - here in a,b=c,d if c is gluer it makes 2-vector or 3-vector depending on "=" priority; if it is separator then you got 3 separate codse lines .. in old c comma is rather gluer (closer to it imo) and some may work with it it has some advantages and its traditional but from purification point of wiew im closer to think it should be outed of things as a separator

but then there is in fact some need for something that will make vectors and this is a problem ,
sometimes you could just use space like 1 2 3 4 is a vector and then if low priority = you got
a b = c d but this has some other problems (if some wants more)

like i dont quite like = as assigment "a 2" seems better than "a=2" so i would make many expression when some not uses = but uses space as a call or euation sign and then space cant work as a vectorizer (maybe instead of gluer i should name it vectorizer)

niedziela, 5 marca 2023 o 17:24:30 UTC+1 fir napisał(a):
> niedziela, 5 marca 2023 o 16:42:32 UTC+1 bart c napisał(a):
> > On Sunday, 5 March 2023 at 12:40:21 UTC, fir wrote:
> > > (i name it pythonic as it is popular in some memes but
> > > i considered it in c 20 about years ago not knowing python them,
> > > nut i may name it pythonic here )
> > >
> > > it is considered elegant but i think if it can stand in very purified
> > > new c syntax and as for now its not celar for me
> > >
> > > this basic purified new c syntax is still not fully clear to me thopugh
> > > some insights was worked out
> > >
> > > in my opinion there should be tendency to mostly use space in purified syntax, then eventualy parenthesis (), comma i guess should be rather used
> > > as separator of power close to newline rather than 'gluer' for structures
> > > (though this im not sure) , it is becouse , is better than ; tha last one should eventualy separate blocks etc, and = is not so much good at all
> > >
> > > but if so that woudl mean a,b=c,d wouldnt work
> > > instead one would rather use (a b) c d
> > The concept is OK. The problem is existing C syntax: the 'comma operator' makes a lot of things troublesome:
> >
> > You have to write A[i][j] instead of A[i,j], becomes the latter means 'i; A[i]'.
> >
> > And a,b = c, d means something like a; b=c; d;
> >
> > I use this elsewhere as (a,b) = (c,d), but has the same problem in C.
> >
> > So you need to find a syntax that works with C. Unless of course this is something new, and you've decided to do away with the comma operator.
> its heavily problematic, comma may be treated as separator or gluer (by gluer i mean something that establishes vector/tuple) - here in a,b=c,d if c is gluer it makes 2-vector or 3-vector depending on "=" priority; if it is separator then you got 3 separate codse lines .. in old c comma is rather gluer (closer to it imo) and some may work with it it has some advantages and its traditional but from purification point of wiew im closer to think it should be outed of things as a separator
>
> but then there is in fact some need for something that will make vectors and this is a problem ,
> sometimes you could just use space like 1 2 3 4 is a vector and then if low priority = you got
> a b = c d but this has some other problems (if some wants more)
>
> like i dont quite like = as assigment "a 2" seems better than "a=2" so i would make many expression when some not uses = but uses space as a call or euation sign and then space cant work as a vectorizer (maybe instead of gluer i should name it vectorizer)

it seems without bectorizer sign it will not go so soemetjong is needed
maybe temporarely i will use ' or | interchangebly until maybe i find somethiong better
1'2'3*8'9 as a vector multiplication or 1|2|3*8|9 in some cases first looks betterin some other the second look good , still it dont look good in all cases

niedziela, 5 marca 2023 o 17:35:48 UTC+1 fir napisał(a):
> niedziela, 5 marca 2023 o 17:24:30 UTC+1 fir napisał(a):
> > niedziela, 5 marca 2023 o 16:42:32 UTC+1 bart c napisał(a):
> > > On Sunday, 5 March 2023 at 12:40:21 UTC, fir wrote:
> > > > (i name it pythonic as it is popular in some memes but
> > > > i considered it in c 20 about years ago not knowing python them,
> > > > nut i may name it pythonic here )
> > > >
> > > > it is considered elegant but i think if it can stand in very purified
> > > > new c syntax and as for now its not celar for me
> > > >
> > > > this basic purified new c syntax is still not fully clear to me thopugh
> > > > some insights was worked out
> > > >
> > > > in my opinion there should be tendency to mostly use space in purified syntax, then eventualy parenthesis (), comma i guess should be rather used
> > > > as separator of power close to newline rather than 'gluer' for structures
> > > > (though this im not sure) , it is becouse , is better than ; tha last one should eventualy separate blocks etc, and = is not so much good at all
> > > >
> > > > but if so that woudl mean a,b=c,d wouldnt work
> > > > instead one would rather use (a b) c d
> > > The concept is OK. The problem is existing C syntax: the 'comma operator' makes a lot of things troublesome:
> > >
> > > You have to write A[i][j] instead of A[i,j], becomes the latter means 'i; A[i]'.
> > >
> > > And a,b = c, d means something like a; b=c; d;
> > >
> > > I use this elsewhere as (a,b) = (c,d), but has the same problem in C.
> > >
> > > So you need to find a syntax that works with C. Unless of course this is something new, and you've decided to do away with the comma operator.
> > its heavily problematic, comma may be treated as separator or gluer (by gluer i mean something that establishes vector/tuple) - here in a,b=c,d if c is gluer it makes 2-vector or 3-vector depending on "=" priority; if it is separator then you got 3 separate codse lines .. in old c comma is rather gluer (closer to it imo) and some may work with it it has some advantages and its traditional but from purification point of wiew im closer to think it should be outed of things as a separator
> >
> > but then there is in fact some need for something that will make vectors and this is a problem ,
> > sometimes you could just use space like 1 2 3 4 is a vector and then if low priority = you got
> > a b = c d but this has some other problems (if some wants more)
> >
> > like i dont quite like = as assigment "a 2" seems better than "a=2" so i would make many expression when some not uses = but uses space as a call or euation sign and then space cant work as a vectorizer (maybe instead of gluer i should name it vectorizer)
> it seems without bectorizer sign it will not go so soemetjong is needed
> maybe temporarely i will use ' or | interchangebly until maybe i find somethiong better
> 1'2'3*8'9 as a vector multiplication or 1|2|3*8|9 in some cases first looks betterin some other the second look good , still it dont look good in all cases

this comma makes realy hard problem as treating comma as a separator instead pf ; is probably too good to abject, comma ist just too good.. but if so all the bectorizers in c which now are noted by comma must be revritten on something other - if this other is space it yet look good but the poroblem is you need space for calling.. i think revriting things like foo 1'2'3 is standable but breaks convenience
(here though one may use foo 1 2 3 srill

In article <338d1446-e28e-4ef9-ac7d-4fb89d2cd9een@googlegroups.com>,
bart c <bart4858@gmail.com> wrote:
....
>The concept is OK. The problem is existing C syntax: the 'comma operator' makes a
>lot of things troublesome:
>
> You have to write A[i][j] instead of A[i,j], becomes the latter means 'i; A[i]'.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------j

Fixed it for ya.

>
> And a,b = c, d means something like a; b=c; d;
>
>I use this elsewhere as (a,b) = (c,d), but has the same problem in C.
>
>So you need to find a syntax that works with C. Unless of course this is
>something new, and you've decided to do away with the comma operator.

How about a system-supplied "swap" macro - that would just do the right thing.

#include "swap.h"
swap(a,b);

And for disjoing multiple assignments, like your a,b,c,d example, we're
just stuck with the old way:

a=c;b=d;

--
"We are in the beginning of a mass extinction, and all you can talk
about is money and fairy tales of eternal economic growth."

- Greta Thunberg -

On Sunday, 5 March 2023 at 17:06:06 UTC, Kenny McCormack wrote:
> In article <338d1446-e28e-4ef9>,
> bart c wrote:
> ...
> >The concept is OK. The problem is existing C syntax: the 'comma operator' makes a
> >lot of things troublesome:
> >
> > You have to write A[i][j] instead of A[i,j], becomes the latter means 'i; A[i]'.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------j
>
> Fixed it for ya.

I'm using Google Groups (since aioe expired), which uses a proportional font; hard to see things.

> >
> > And a,b = c, d means something like a; b=c; d;
> >
> >I use this elsewhere as (a,b) = (c,d), but has the same problem in C.
> >
> >So you need to find a syntax that works with C. Unless of course this is
> >something new, and you've decided to do away with the comma operator.
> How about a system-supplied "swap" macro - that would just do the right thing.
>
> #include "swap.h"
> swap(a,b);

Defined in C? You'd have to use something like this:

#define swap(a, b) {typeof(a) t=a; a=b; b=t;}

which is not standard C, and both arguments are evaluated/part-evaluated twice, so that needs dealing with too.

> And for disjoing multiple assignments, like your a,b,c,d example, we're
> just stuck with the old way:
>
> a=c;b=d;

Multiple assignment is usually more like this:

t1=c; t2=d; a=t1; b=t2;

You'll see the difference when you try and do this (I assume this is why you mentioned swap):

a, b = b, a;

On 05/03/2023 19:01, bart c wrote:

> I'm using Google Groups (since aioe expired), which uses a proportional font; hard to see things.
>

If you are looking for a free newsserver, news.eternal-september.org is
a popular option that will save you from Google Groups.

On Sunday, 5 March 2023 at 19:12:52 UTC, David Brown wrote:
> On 05/03/2023 19:01, bart c wrote:
>
> > I'm using Google Groups (since aioe expired), which uses a proportional font; hard to see things.
> >
> If you are looking for a free newsserver, news.eternal-september.org is
> a popular option that will save you from Google Groups.

I've used that before, but getting it properly configured is a pain. It will tell you how (the usual symptom is the newsgroups are not visible), but by then you've already configured it wrongly, and you need to uninstall it and try again. Also by know I've probably forgotten my log-in credentials.

I was just being lazy with GG, but it is truly appalling.

On 05/03/2023 19:39, bart c wrote:
> On Sunday, 5 March 2023 at 19:12:52 UTC, David Brown wrote:
>> On 05/03/2023 19:01, bart c wrote:
>>
>>> I'm using Google Groups (since aioe expired), which uses a proportional font; hard to see things.
>>>
>> If you are looking for a free newsserver, news.eternal-september.org is
>> a popular option that will save you from Google Groups.
>
> I've used that before, but getting it properly configured is a pain. It will tell you how (the usual symptom is the newsgroups are not visible), but by then you've already configured it wrongly, and you need to uninstall it and try again. Also by know I've probably forgotten my log-in credentials.
>
> I was just being lazy with GG, but it is truly appalling.

I'm back on ES. It only took 3-4 attempts, with help from googling how
to add newsgroups to ES since the obvious option on Thunderbird -
'Newsgroups' - keeps you going in circles creating endless news accounts.

I was also lucky that I'd written down my credentials for ES, since when
I used the 'forgotten password' link, the reset emails it said were sent
never arrived, and when I tried my only other email, it said the domain
wasn't recognised.

It's clear I think why I went with aioe!

bart c to David Brown:

> > If you are looking for a free newsserver, news.eternal-
> > september.org is a popular option that will save you
> > from Google Groups.
>
> I've used that before, but getting it properly configured
> is a pain.

No, it's a whiffy!

> It will tell you how (the usual symptom is the newsgroups
> are not visible),

Only one thing is required: configure your client to
authenticate /before/ retrieving newsgroups:

https://www.eternal-september.org/index.php?showpage=faq#Login-No-Auth

> but by then you've already configured it wrongly, and you
> need to uninstall it and try again.

Nothing like that -- just go into the options of your
newsreader and fix the settings.

> Also by know I've probably forgotten my log-in
> credentials.

Registering again takes about five minutes, but you can use
an anonymouse server that does not require registration and
works out-of-the-box. Just point you newsreader to:
paganini.bofh.team (port 119). You will probably have to
provide an arbitrary full name and a realistic-looking
e-mail address.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

Bart:

> It's clear I think why I went with aioe!

Then paganini.bofh.team:119 is the thing for you!

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

In article <40ca5a90-eede-4b7b-bcec-8b9a8a34a048n@googlegroups.com>,
bart c <bart4858@gmail.com> wrote:
....
>> a=c;b=d;
>
>Multiple assignment is usually more like this:
>
> t1=c; t2=d; a=t1; b=t2;
>
>You'll see the difference when you try and do this (I assume this is why you
>mentioned swap):
>
> a, b = b, a;
>

I think overall you are taking me much too literally, and failing to see
the forest for the trees.

--
Many people in the American South think that DJT is, and will be remembered
as, one of the best presidents in US history. They are absolutely correct.

He is currently at number 46 on the list. High praise, indeed!

On 3/5/23 10:42, bart c wrote:
> The concept is OK. The problem is existing C syntax: the 'comma operator' makes a lot of things troublesome:
>
> <snip/> >
> So you need to find a syntax that works with C. Unless of course this is something new, and you've decided to do away with the comma operator.
​n2701 put @, $, and ` into the source and execution character set.
Perhaps one of those could be used.
(n2701: <https://www.open-std.org/JTC1/SC22/WG14/www/docs/n2701.htm>)
--
⚗︎ | /blu.mɛin.dʰak/ | shortens to "Hawk" | he/him/his/himself/Mr.
bluemanedhawk.github.io
Bitches stole my whole ass ␔🭖᷿᪳𝼗᷍⏧𒒫𐻾ࣛ↉�⃣ quoted-printable, can't
have shit in Thunderbird 😩

On 05/03/2023 21:13, Bart wrote:
> On 05/03/2023 19:39, bart c wrote:
>> On Sunday, 5 March 2023 at 19:12:52 UTC, David Brown wrote:
>>> On 05/03/2023 19:01, bart c wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm using Google Groups (since aioe expired), which uses a
>>>> proportional font; hard to see things.
>>>>
>>> If you are looking for a free newsserver, news.eternal-september.org is
>>> a popular option that will save you from Google Groups.
>>
>> I've used that before, but getting it properly configured is a pain.
>> It will tell you how (the usual symptom is the newsgroups are not
>> visible), but by then you've already configured it wrongly, and you
>> need to uninstall it and try again. Also by know I've probably
>> forgotten my log-in credentials.
>>
>> I was just being lazy with GG, but it is truly appalling.
>
> I'm back on ES. It only took 3-4 attempts, with help from googling how
> to add newsgroups to ES since the obvious option on Thunderbird -
> 'Newsgroups' - keeps you going in circles creating endless news accounts.
>
> I was also lucky that I'd written down my credentials for ES, since when
> I used the 'forgotten password' link, the reset emails it said were sent
> never arrived, and when I tried my only other email, it said the domain
> wasn't recognised.
>
> It's clear I think why I went with aioe!
>

I'm glad you got it all working in the end, and don't have to use Google
Groups for normal Usenet usage. (It can still be handy for searching
across multiple groups - google's good for searches.) Welcome back to
/real/ Usenet :-)

On Sunday, March 5, 2023 at 3:13:53 PM UTC-5, Bart wrote:
....
> I'm back on ES. It only took 3-4 attempts, with help from googling how
> to add newsgroups to ES since the obvious option on Thunderbird -
> 'Newsgroups' - keeps you going in circles creating endless news accounts.

That's an annoying change. It used to be that selecting "Eternal September"
in the "Folders" pane would provide you with a "Subscribe" option in the main
pane. Now, you only have two options: with "Eternal September" selected,
choose File/Subscribe, or right-click on "Eternal September" and select
"Subscribe".

The Newsgroups button is in the "Set up Another Account" section. Nothing
in that section has anything to do with the currently selected account, which
is why you ended up going in circles. The "Newsgroups" button is for setting
up another account to view newsgroups, not for selecting the newsgroups
you want to view using the currently selected account.

Le 05/03/2023 à 21:13, Bart a écrit :
> I'm back on ES. It only took 3-4 attempts, with help from googling how
> to add newsgroups to ES since the obvious option on Thunderbird -
> 'Newsgroups' - keeps you going in circles creating endless news accounts.

Same thing, I switched from aioe.org to ES. Didn't have any issue with
ES though. The only issue I'm having is that some newsgroups I used with
aioe are not updated, even though they are listed on ES. Also, I noted
an alarming amount of spam posts in comp.lang.c ever since I'm on ES,
there was a lot less when using aioe.

On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 3:09:59 PM UTC-5, Opus wrote:
> Le 05/03/2023 à 21:13, Bart a écrit :
....
> Same thing, I switched from aioe.org to ES. Didn't have any issue with
> ES though. The only issue I'm having is that some newsgroups I used with
> aioe are not updated, even though they are listed on ES. Also, I noted
> an alarming amount of spam posts in comp.lang.c ever since I'm on ES,
> there was a lot less when using aioe.

That might just be a coincidence - there's recently been a flood of spam advertising cannibus sources and selling fake credit cards. The normal amount of spam is much lower. If you go back to aioe, is that spam filtered out?

Le 06/03/2023 à 23:07, james...@alumni.caltech.edu a écrit :
> On Monday, March 6, 2023 at 3:09:59 PM UTC-5, Opus wrote:
>> Le 05/03/2023 à 21:13, Bart a écrit :
> ...
>> Same thing, I switched from aioe.org to ES. Didn't have any issue with
>> ES though. The only issue I'm having is that some newsgroups I used with
>> aioe are not updated, even though they are listed on ES. Also, I noted
>> an alarming amount of spam posts in comp.lang.c ever since I'm on ES,
>> there was a lot less when using aioe.
>
> That might just be a coincidence - there's recently been a flood of spam advertising cannibus sources and selling fake credit cards. The normal amount of spam is much lower. If you go back to aioe, is that spam filtered out?

Yes, maybe just a coincidence.
I don't know about aioe, it's still down so I can't test.
Does anyone know what happened to them btw?

Opus:

> I don't know about aioe, it's still down so I can't test.
> Does anyone know what happened to them btw?

The last time I heard from the admin, he was in very bad
health and feared for his life. I wrote back offering
whatever help he might need, but received no reply.

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

Opus:

> The only issue [with E.-S.] I'm having is that some
> newsgroups I used with aioe are not updated, even though
> they are listed on ES.

It may be worth comparing with paganini.bofh.team (a free
anonymous server), and reporting at:
eternal-september.support .

--
() ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
/\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments

Le 07/03/2023 à 11:39, Anton Shepelev a écrit :
> Opus:
>
>> I don't know about aioe, it's still down so I can't test.
>> Does anyone know what happened to them btw?
>
> The last time I heard from the admin, he was in very bad
> health and feared for his life. I wrote back offering
> whatever help he might need, but received no reply.

Ah, thanks. Sad news apparently. :(

/* what about the following: */

typedef struct _pair{ int x,y; } pair;
pair swap(pair from){ return (pair){ .x=from.y, .y=from.x }; }

#include <stdio.h>
int main(){

pair to = swap((pair){ .x=1, .y=2 });
printf(" to: x=%d; y=%d \n", to.x, to.y);

return 0;
}