On 2023-05-19, Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> wrote:
> I use Java's camelCase.

That's pretty ignorant. "CamelCase" was used in C programming before
Java existed. The Windows API and XWindow are full of it.
Does XCreateWindow ring a bell?

CamelCase was/is fairly popular in some case-insensitive languages such
as, oh, the dBase family or the Wirthians: Pascal, Modula, as well
as Ada.

--
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Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> writes:

> On 2023-05-19, Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I use Java's camelCase.
>
> That's pretty ignorant. "CamelCase" was used in C programming before
> Java existed. The Windows API and XWindow are full of it.
> Does XCreateWindow ring a bell?

The naked term covers more than one convention. I think "Java's
camelCase" refers to the one rarely seen in C and of which XCreateWindow
is not an example.

> CamelCase was/is fairly popular in some case-insensitive languages such
> as, oh, the dBase family or the Wirthians: Pascal, Modula, as well
> as Ada.

"Java's camelCase" was not commonly used in Pascal or Modula2/3 which
tended to favour the plain CamelCase form. The Ada convention is for a
mixed form that might be called Snake_Camel_Case.

--
Ben.

On 5/20/23 14:23, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> writes:
>
>> On 2023-05-19, Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I use Java's camelCase.
>>
>> That's pretty ignorant. "CamelCase" was used in C programming before
>> Java existed. The Windows API and XWindow are full of it.
>> Does XCreateWindow ring a bell?
>
> The naked term covers more than one convention. I think "Java's
> camelCase" refers to the one rarely seen in C and of which XCreateWindow
> is not an example.
>
​While it's true that camel case can be disambiguated into dromedaryCase
and PascalCase, generally i see the naked term more and more used _only_
to refer to dromedary case. (Of course, all of this is rather moot when
the standard among C programs is to use highly abbreviated snake_case
for every identifier.)
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bluemanedhawk.github.io
Bitches stole my whole ass ␔🭖᷿᪳𝼗᷍⏧𒒫𐻾ࣛ↉�⃣ quoted-printable, can't
have shit in Thunderbird 😩

On 20/05/2023 20:23, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> writes:
>
>> On 2023-05-19, Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I use Java's camelCase.
>>
>> That's pretty ignorant. "CamelCase" was used in C programming before
>> Java existed. The Windows API and XWindow are full of it.
>> Does XCreateWindow ring a bell?
>
> The naked term covers more than one convention. I think "Java's
> camelCase" refers to the one rarely seen in C and of which XCreateWindow
> is not an example.
>

It is rare that I think you are wrong, Ben - but I think you are wrong here.

Yes, the term "camelCase" is used for variants of identifier formats in
which most letters are lowercase, while new words (possibly, but not
necessarily, including the first word) are capitalized. Underscores may
or may not be used. (Some languages also allow hyphens, or even spaces,
in identifiers.)

Java programmers seem to be a little more consistent than users of other
languages in sticking to a particular format - lower camelCase - for
things like methods. But it would be wrong to think of that as "Java's
camelCase" - it predates Java by decades at least.

And the only thing consistent about C identifier formatting is the
inconsistency. C programmers have used ever formatting style you can
think of - including mixes. Even the "macros are ALL_CAPS" rule is far
from universal - some use all-caps for other kinds of identifiers, and
some use other formats for macros.

camelCase is used a lot in C programming. So are other formats. So are
inconsistent formats, and sometimes that is done intentionally as a way
to minimise the risk of conflicting with identifiers from libraries or
other parts of the code.

Particular projects, companies, or other groups can of course have
consistent rules for their identifier formats.

>> CamelCase was/is fairly popular in some case-insensitive languages such
>> as, oh, the dBase family or the Wirthians: Pascal, Modula, as well
>> as Ada.
>
> "Java's camelCase" was not commonly used in Pascal or Modula2/3 which
> tended to favour the plain CamelCase form. The Ada convention is for a
> mixed form that might be called Snake_Camel_Case.
>

In my Pascal days, UpperCamelCase was common for functions and
procedures (and with a T prefix for types - Borland style), and
lowerCamelCase was common for variables.

David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:

> On 20/05/2023 20:23, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 2023-05-19, Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I use Java's camelCase.
>>>
>>> That's pretty ignorant. "CamelCase" was used in C programming before
>>> Java existed. The Windows API and XWindow are full of it.
>>> Does XCreateWindow ring a bell?
>> The naked term covers more than one convention. I think "Java's
>> camelCase" refers to the one rarely seen in C and of which XCreateWindow
>> is not an example.
>
> It is rare that I think you are wrong, Ben - but I think you are wrong here.
>
> Yes, the term "camelCase" is used for variants of identifier formats in
> which most letters are lowercase, while new words (possibly, but not
> necessarily, including the first word) are capitalized. Underscores may or
> may not be used. (Some languages also allow hyphens, or even spaces, in
> identifiers.)
>
> Java programmers seem to be a little more consistent than users of other
> languages in sticking to a particular format - lower camelCase - for things
> like methods. But it would be wrong to think of that as "Java's camelCase"
> - it predates Java by decades at least.

I'm not sure what you think I am wrong about. I was explaining how I
interpreted the phrase "Java's camelCase". Am I wrong to think it
almost certainly refers to the initial-lower mixed-case convention?

Did you take what I wrote to suggest I thought it originated with Java?
I don't. I'm one of the (probably) few people here who remembers Mesa,
which is here I first saw it (and, no, I don't claim it originated there
either).

--
Ben.

On 21/05/2023 14:50, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:
>
>> On 20/05/2023 20:23, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 2023-05-19, Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I use Java's camelCase.
>>>>
>>>> That's pretty ignorant. "CamelCase" was used in C programming before
>>>> Java existed. The Windows API and XWindow are full of it.
>>>> Does XCreateWindow ring a bell?
>>> The naked term covers more than one convention. I think "Java's
>>> camelCase" refers to the one rarely seen in C and of which XCreateWindow
>>> is not an example.
>>
>> It is rare that I think you are wrong, Ben - but I think you are wrong here.
>>
>> Yes, the term "camelCase" is used for variants of identifier formats in
>> which most letters are lowercase, while new words (possibly, but not
>> necessarily, including the first word) are capitalized. Underscores may or
>> may not be used. (Some languages also allow hyphens, or even spaces, in
>> identifiers.)
>>
>> Java programmers seem to be a little more consistent than users of other
>> languages in sticking to a particular format - lower camelCase - for things
>> like methods. But it would be wrong to think of that as "Java's camelCase"
>> - it predates Java by decades at least.
>
> I'm not sure what you think I am wrong about. I was explaining how I
> interpreted the phrase "Java's camelCase". Am I wrong to think it
> almost certainly refers to the initial-lower mixed-case convention?
>
> Did you take what I wrote to suggest I thought it originated with Java?
> I don't. I'm one of the (probably) few people here who remembers Mesa,
> which is here I first saw it (and, no, I don't claim it originated there
> either).
>

I thought you were wrong to suggest it is "rarely seen in C". (I
expressed myself quite poorly - because I agree about how "Java's
camelCase" is likely to be interpreted, and that "XCreateWindow" is not
an example.)

David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:

> On 21/05/2023 14:50, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:
>>
>>> On 20/05/2023 20:23, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>> Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2023-05-19, Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> I use Java's camelCase.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's pretty ignorant. "CamelCase" was used in C programming before
>>>>> Java existed. The Windows API and XWindow are full of it.
>>>>> Does XCreateWindow ring a bell?
>>>>
>>>> The naked term covers more than one convention. I think "Java's
>>>> camelCase" refers to the one rarely seen in C and of which XCreateWindow
>>>> is not an example.
>>>
>>> It is rare that I think you are wrong, Ben - but I think you are
>>> wrong here.
<cut>
>> I'm not sure what you think I am wrong about.
<cut>
> I thought you were wrong to suggest it is "rarely seen in C".

Ah. I see. We could debate about what counts as rarely, but I've not
done a survey so I will have no useful facts to contribute. I've been
reading C for several decades and it seems rare in my experience, but
there are many uses of C that I seldom got to see.

--
Ben.

Am 20.05.2023 um 10:48 schrieb David Brown:

> Yes.  But this discussion is about the conventions used by the C
> standards - not some random user. ...

The C standard doesn't mandate any naming.

Am 20.05.2023 um 10:48 schrieb David Brown:

> Yes.  But this discussion is about the conventions used by the C
> standards - not some random user.  The choices made by the early C
> library developers was subjective, of course, but it is /their/ choices
> under discussion.  Not your choices, or anyone else's.

The C standard doesn't mandate any naming.

Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> wrote:
> Am 20.05.2023 um 10:48 schrieb David Brown:
>
>> Yes.  But this discussion is about the conventions used by the C
>> standards - not some random user.  The choices made by the early C
>> library developers was subjective, of course, but it is /their/ choices
>> under discussion.  Not your choices, or anyone else's.
>
> The C standard doesn't mandate any naming.

True, it does not mandate any particular *style*. However,
concerning *naming*, identifiers starting with an
underscore, followed by an uppercase letter or another
underscore, are reserved for the implementation.

br,
KK

On 22/05/2023 04:01, Bonita Montero wrote:
> Am 20.05.2023 um 10:48 schrieb David Brown:
>
>> Yes.  But this discussion is about the conventions used by the C
>> standards - not some random user. ...
>
> The C standard doesn't mandate any naming.
>

True, but irrelevant - we are talking about the conventions /used/ by
the C standards.

On 21/05/2023 17:22, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:
>
>> On 21/05/2023 14:50, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>> David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:
>>>
>>>> On 20/05/2023 20:23, Ben Bacarisse wrote:
>>>>> Kaz Kylheku <864-117-4973@kylheku.com> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2023-05-19, Bonita Montero <Bonita.Montero@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> I use Java's camelCase.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's pretty ignorant. "CamelCase" was used in C programming before
>>>>>> Java existed. The Windows API and XWindow are full of it.
>>>>>> Does XCreateWindow ring a bell?
>>>>>
>>>>> The naked term covers more than one convention. I think "Java's
>>>>> camelCase" refers to the one rarely seen in C and of which XCreateWindow
>>>>> is not an example.
>>>>
>>>> It is rare that I think you are wrong, Ben - but I think you are
>>>> wrong here.
> <cut>
>>> I'm not sure what you think I am wrong about.
> <cut>
>> I thought you were wrong to suggest it is "rarely seen in C".
>
> Ah. I see. We could debate about what counts as rarely, but I've not
> done a survey so I will have no useful facts to contribute. I've been
> reading C for several decades and it seems rare in my experience, but
> there are many uses of C that I seldom got to see.
>

Fair enough. I should add exactly the same disclaimer to saying it is
/not/ rare - with no definition of "rare", and no objective statistical
sampling of the total population of C code, it all comes down to
personal experience.

It is, however, somewhat interesting that our experiences of
lowerCamelCase in C differs - I see it regularly, and use it myself for
some code. (I find myself using it less often now - perhaps my eyesight
is not what it used to be, and perhaps that influences my choice of
naming convention.) I know our C careers have focused on significantly
different uses of the language, and it may be that there are
statistically significant differences in the naming conventions used in
different fields of C programming. But I doubt if it is worth pursuing.

Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> writes:

[regarding camelCase and Java]

> Did you take what I wrote to suggest I thought it originated with
> Java? I don't. I'm one of the (probably) few people here who
> remembers Mesa, which is here I first saw it (and, no, I don't
> claim it originated there either).

I remember Mesa! It's a great language.

I'm pretty sure that early versions of Smalltalk used camelCase
(and CamelCase) before Mesa came on the scene. Having said that,
the difference between those events was no more than a few years
either way.

Note that both Mesa and Smalltalk were developed at Xerox PARC,
where development was done on Alto personal workstations. This
environment is relevant because the Alto keyboard did not have an
underscore character, using the code for underscore to display a
"back arrow" glyph rather than an underscore. So camelCase (and
CamelCase) was more of a necessity than it was a choice in those
environments.

Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> writes:

> Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> writes:
>
> [regarding camelCase and Java]
>
>> Did you take what I wrote to suggest I thought it originated with
>> Java? I don't. I'm one of the (probably) few people here who
>> remembers Mesa, which is here I first saw it (and, no, I don't
>> claim it originated there either).
>
> I remember Mesa! It's a great language.
>
> I'm pretty sure that early versions of Smalltalk used camelCase
> (and CamelCase) before Mesa came on the scene. Having said that,
> the difference between those events was no more than a few years
> either way.
>
> Note that both Mesa and Smalltalk were developed at Xerox PARC,
> where development was done on Alto personal workstations. This
> environment is relevant because the Alto keyboard did not have an
> underscore character,

I didn't know that.

> using the code for underscore to display a
> "back arrow" glyph rather than an underscore.

Which was Mesa's assignment operator.

> So camelCase (and
> CamelCase) was more of a necessity than it was a choice in those
> environments.

--
Ben.