On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 8:53:24 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
[]
> That is a very hard number to quantify. And in just C code or all codes
> ? At least a half million LOC since 1975 in Fortran 66, Fortran 77, IBM
> 370 Assembler, Basic, Pascal, C, C++, HTML, Perl.
>
> I am the chief shepherd for 730,000 lines of Fortran 77 code and 600,000
> lines of C and mostly C++ code for a Windows desktop engineering
> software product sold commercially.
>
> Lynn

Wow, you've been at it longer than I was.
(I'm semi-retired now.)
Ed

fir <profesor.fir@gmail.com> wrote:
> how many lines you coded in your life? if you give an answer try to be real
> (and not count data and duplicates)

I have no idea. However, I do know it paid for everything, so I guess
it was enough.

The willingness to accept what is known to be wrong as if it were
right was displayed very explicitly by Hamming... As so many others,
he expressed in one of his talks programmer productivity in terms of
"numbers of lines of code produced". During the discussion I pointed
out that a programmer should produce solutions, and that, therefore,
we should not talk about the number of lines of code produced, but
the number of lines of code used, and that this number ought to be
booked on the other side of the ledger. His answer was "Well, I know
that it is inadequate, but it is the only thing we can measure." As
if this undeniable fact also determines the side of the ledger...

EWD 513. Dijkstra, Newcastle, 1975.

Andrew.

poniedziałek, 31 lipca 2023 o 11:29:44 UTC+2 a...@littlepinkcloud..invalid napisał(a):
> fir <profes...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > how many lines you coded in your life? if you give an answer try to be real
> > (and not count data and duplicates)
> I have no idea. However, I do know it paid for everything, so I guess
> it was enough.
>
> The willingness to accept what is known to be wrong as if it were
> right was displayed very explicitly by Hamming... As so many others,
> he expressed in one of his talks programmer productivity in terms of
> "numbers of lines of code produced". During the discussion I pointed
> out that a programmer should produce solutions, and that, therefore,
> we should not talk about the number of lines of code produced, but
> the number of lines of code used, and that this number ought to be
> booked on the other side of the ledger. His answer was "Well, I know
> that it is inadequate, but it is the only thing we can measure." As
> if this undeniable fact also determines the side of the ledger...
>
> EWD 513. Dijkstra, Newcastle, 1975.
>
> Andrew.

honestly beliving in capitalism too much is imo somewhat demential..
i recently was thinking what makes many people stupid and thase were
assumptions (especially false assumptions) ..and this way code that is
capitalistic is good is imo such way asumption that make stupid

btw pure programing and capitalism is not quite on a way..its rather capitalism
parasitize on programming..

poniedziałek, 31 lipca 2023 o 14:10:40 UTC+2 fir napisał(a):
> poniedziałek, 31 lipca 2023 o 11:29:44 UTC+2 a...@littlepinkcloud.invalid napisał(a):
> > fir <profes...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > how many lines you coded in your life? if you give an answer try to be real
> > > (and not count data and duplicates)
> > I have no idea. However, I do know it paid for everything, so I guess
> > it was enough.
> >
> > The willingness to accept what is known to be wrong as if it were
> > right was displayed very explicitly by Hamming... As so many others,
> > he expressed in one of his talks programmer productivity in terms of
> > "numbers of lines of code produced". During the discussion I pointed
> > out that a programmer should produce solutions, and that, therefore,
> > we should not talk about the number of lines of code produced, but
> > the number of lines of code used, and that this number ought to be
> > booked on the other side of the ledger. His answer was "Well, I know
> > that it is inadequate, but it is the only thing we can measure." As
> > if this undeniable fact also determines the side of the ledger...
> >
> > EWD 513. Dijkstra, Newcastle, 1975.
> >
> > Andrew.
> honestly beliving in capitalism too much is imo somewhat demential..
> i recently was thinking what makes many people stupid and thase were
> assumptions (especially false assumptions) ..and this way code that is
> capitalistic is good is imo such way asumption that make stupid
>
> btw pure programing and capitalism is not quite on a way..its rather capitalism
> parasitize on programming..

capitalism is sorta 'unreal' term as when i think of coding (and what is important here)
capitallism at all not exist here..real terms are like 'logic' or 'tiredness' even 'age' (condition)
and many inside things but putting capitalism to all that is sorta weird

On Monday, 31 July 2023 at 13:10:40 UTC+1, fir wrote:
> poniedziałek, 31 lipca 2023 o 11:29:44 UTC+2 a...@littlepinkcloud.invalid napisał(a):
> > fir <profes...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > how many lines you coded in your life? if you give an answer try to be real
> > > (and not count data and duplicates)
> > I have no idea. However, I do know it paid for everything, so I guess
> > it was enough.
> >
> > The willingness to accept what is known to be wrong as if it were
> > right was displayed very explicitly by Hamming... As so many others,
> > he expressed in one of his talks programmer productivity in terms of
> > "numbers of lines of code produced". During the discussion I pointed
> > out that a programmer should produce solutions, and that, therefore,
> > we should not talk about the number of lines of code produced, but
> > the number of lines of code used, and that this number ought to be
> > booked on the other side of the ledger. His answer was "Well, I know
> > that it is inadequate, but it is the only thing we can measure." As
> > if this undeniable fact also determines the side of the ledger...
> >
> > EWD 513. Dijkstra, Newcastle, 1975.
> >
> > Andrew.
> honestly beliving in capitalism too much is imo somewhat demential..
> i recently was thinking what makes many people stupid and thase were
> assumptions (especially false assumptions) ..and this way code that is
> capitalistic is good is imo such way asumption that make stupid
>
> btw pure programing and capitalism is not quite on a way..its rather capitalism
> parasitize on programming..
>
Dijkstra was a notorious leftie. He was also a very clever man, and of
course he right that trying to measure programming productivity by
counting lines written is idiotic.

poniedziałek, 31 lipca 2023 o 14:16:17 UTC+2 fir napisał(a):
> poniedziałek, 31 lipca 2023 o 14:10:40 UTC+2 fir napisał(a):
> > poniedziałek, 31 lipca 2023 o 11:29:44 UTC+2 a...@littlepinkcloud.invalid napisał(a):
> > > fir <profes...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > how many lines you coded in your life? if you give an answer try to be real
> > > > (and not count data and duplicates)
> > > I have no idea. However, I do know it paid for everything, so I guess
> > > it was enough.
> > >
> > > The willingness to accept what is known to be wrong as if it were
> > > right was displayed very explicitly by Hamming... As so many others,
> > > he expressed in one of his talks programmer productivity in terms of
> > > "numbers of lines of code produced". During the discussion I pointed
> > > out that a programmer should produce solutions, and that, therefore,
> > > we should not talk about the number of lines of code produced, but
> > > the number of lines of code used, and that this number ought to be
> > > booked on the other side of the ledger. His answer was "Well, I know
> > > that it is inadequate, but it is the only thing we can measure." As
> > > if this undeniable fact also determines the side of the ledger...
> > >
> > > EWD 513. Dijkstra, Newcastle, 1975.
> > >
> > > Andrew.
> > honestly beliving in capitalism too much is imo somewhat demential..
> > i recently was thinking what makes many people stupid and thase were
> > assumptions (especially false assumptions) ..and this way code that is
> > capitalistic is good is imo such way asumption that make stupid
> >
> > btw pure programing and capitalism is not quite on a way..its rather capitalism
> > parasitize on programming..
> capitalism is sorta 'unreal' term as when i think of coding (and what is important here)
> capitallism at all not exist here..real terms are like 'logic' or 'tiredness' even 'age' (condition)
> and many inside things but putting capitalism to all that is sorta weird

if dijkstra means 'used' not in capitalistic way i also could not agree (unles fore example he hea not general programming but some specific project on mind etc)

for example in recent years i discovered what in (at elast my) programing is important
are soemthing like 'ideas' (something liek 'milestones') discovery that something (soem elements) plays well.. tehre are potential heavy thousands of this ideas to discover -
it emans if you obtain and ide the code could be deleted at all but the idea is still
discovered
(by the ide i mean sometimes quite small things but you need some experience to discover them and then note this was good/this was important.. for example my notice (what is interesting but i guess many people dont relise) is that 3D graphics engine /3D graphics is in fact
one function (FillTriangle3D) (eventually yet one entity of camera location which this function takes into consideration, though you can also make this on your side)...another example is
for exampel my experience with my library for games that you can base it on 2d bitmap of pixels
and frame_size_x, frame_size_y, providing rescaling this (stretching) when user drags and resize
window but you also may add cose for changing thex/y bitmap size from keyboard thus allowing
dynamic rescaling of this bitmap output in games (thsi also work well)

such pack of ideas is imo what makes real value in coding (the bigest problem is age - i could make so much fukin good content of this if i would live 1000 years not more like 25 and then get old and die)

poniedziałek, 31 lipca 2023 o 14:27:23 UTC+2 Malcolm McLean napisał(a):
> On Monday, 31 July 2023 at 13:10:40 UTC+1, fir wrote:
> > poniedziałek, 31 lipca 2023 o 11:29:44 UTC+2 a...@littlepinkcloud.invalid napisał(a):
> > > fir <profes...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > how many lines you coded in your life? if you give an answer try to be real
> > > > (and not count data and duplicates)
> > > I have no idea. However, I do know it paid for everything, so I guess
> > > it was enough.
> > >
> > > The willingness to accept what is known to be wrong as if it were
> > > right was displayed very explicitly by Hamming... As so many others,
> > > he expressed in one of his talks programmer productivity in terms of
> > > "numbers of lines of code produced". During the discussion I pointed
> > > out that a programmer should produce solutions, and that, therefore,
> > > we should not talk about the number of lines of code produced, but
> > > the number of lines of code used, and that this number ought to be
> > > booked on the other side of the ledger. His answer was "Well, I know
> > > that it is inadequate, but it is the only thing we can measure." As
> > > if this undeniable fact also determines the side of the ledger...
> > >
> > > EWD 513. Dijkstra, Newcastle, 1975.
> > >
> > > Andrew.
> > honestly beliving in capitalism too much is imo somewhat demential..
> > i recently was thinking what makes many people stupid and thase were
> > assumptions (especially false assumptions) ..and this way code that is
> > capitalistic is good is imo such way asumption that make stupid
> >
> > btw pure programing and capitalism is not quite on a way..its rather capitalism
> > parasitize on programming..
> >
> Dijkstra was a notorious leftie. He was also a very clever man, and of
> course he right that trying to measure programming productivity by
> counting lines written is idiotic.

its absolutly not idiotic..its absolutely right...
weird is so many people has tendency to oppose obvious things like 2+2=4

measuring code by lines is very good.. its not full measure ofc becouse one could write 20k lines in whole life that is much more valuable than much more of something other - but its totally good in some very much important aspect

(if dijkstra was leftie it seem to be not as much leftie as I ;c thout i am in a way of rejecting assumptions (which is true leftic imo) sad im getting old and lost form

poniedziałek, 31 lipca 2023 o 14:41:18 UTC+2 fir napisał(a):
> poniedziałek, 31 lipca 2023 o 14:27:23 UTC+2 Malcolm McLean napisał(a):
> > On Monday, 31 July 2023 at 13:10:40 UTC+1, fir wrote:
> > > poniedziałek, 31 lipca 2023 o 11:29:44 UTC+2 a...@littlepinkcloud.invalid napisał(a):
> > > > fir <profes...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > how many lines you coded in your life? if you give an answer try to be real
> > > > > (and not count data and duplicates)
> > > > I have no idea. However, I do know it paid for everything, so I guess
> > > > it was enough.
> > > >
> > > > The willingness to accept what is known to be wrong as if it were
> > > > right was displayed very explicitly by Hamming... As so many others,
> > > > he expressed in one of his talks programmer productivity in terms of
> > > > "numbers of lines of code produced". During the discussion I pointed
> > > > out that a programmer should produce solutions, and that, therefore,
> > > > we should not talk about the number of lines of code produced, but
> > > > the number of lines of code used, and that this number ought to be
> > > > booked on the other side of the ledger. His answer was "Well, I know
> > > > that it is inadequate, but it is the only thing we can measure." As
> > > > if this undeniable fact also determines the side of the ledger...
> > > >
> > > > EWD 513. Dijkstra, Newcastle, 1975.
> > > >
> > > > Andrew.
> > > honestly beliving in capitalism too much is imo somewhat demential..
> > > i recently was thinking what makes many people stupid and thase were
> > > assumptions (especially false assumptions) ..and this way code that is
> > > capitalistic is good is imo such way asumption that make stupid
> > >
> > > btw pure programing and capitalism is not quite on a way..its rather capitalism
> > > parasitize on programming..
> > >
> > Dijkstra was a notorious leftie. He was also a very clever man, and of
> > course he right that trying to measure programming productivity by
> > counting lines written is idiotic.
> its absolutly not idiotic..its absolutely right...
> weird is so many people has tendency to oppose obvious things like 2+2=4
>
> measuring code by lines is very good.. its not full measure ofc becouse one could write 20k lines in whole life that is much more valuable than much more of something other - but its totally good in some very much important aspect
>
> (if dijkstra was leftie it seem to be not as much leftie as I ;c thout i am in a way of rejecting assumptions (which is true leftic imo) sad im getting old and lost form

note btw the problem if being leftic is rejecting assumptions and being rightie is taking assumption , is there a need of political war between left and right ? i think no - it only need of both those kind to conform to some ground rules (which can be found imo, the rules like not killing, not lefting to die - etc).. in fact does this people that make asumptions totally wrong? (probbaly no as making assumptions may have interesting effects probbaly too)

poniedziałek, 31 lipca 2023 o 14:51:44 UTC+2 fir napisał(a):
> poniedziałek, 31 lipca 2023 o 14:41:18 UTC+2 fir napisał(a):
> > poniedziałek, 31 lipca 2023 o 14:27:23 UTC+2 Malcolm McLean napisał(a):
> > > On Monday, 31 July 2023 at 13:10:40 UTC+1, fir wrote:
> > > > poniedziałek, 31 lipca 2023 o 11:29:44 UTC+2 a...@littlepinkcloud.invalid napisał(a):
> > > > > fir <profes...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > how many lines you coded in your life? if you give an answer try to be real
> > > > > > (and not count data and duplicates)
> > > > > I have no idea. However, I do know it paid for everything, so I guess
> > > > > it was enough.
> > > > >
> > > > > The willingness to accept what is known to be wrong as if it were
> > > > > right was displayed very explicitly by Hamming... As so many others,
> > > > > he expressed in one of his talks programmer productivity in terms of
> > > > > "numbers of lines of code produced". During the discussion I pointed
> > > > > out that a programmer should produce solutions, and that, therefore,
> > > > > we should not talk about the number of lines of code produced, but
> > > > > the number of lines of code used, and that this number ought to be
> > > > > booked on the other side of the ledger. His answer was "Well, I know
> > > > > that it is inadequate, but it is the only thing we can measure." As
> > > > > if this undeniable fact also determines the side of the ledger...
> > > > >
> > > > > EWD 513. Dijkstra, Newcastle, 1975.
> > > > >
> > > > > Andrew.
> > > > honestly beliving in capitalism too much is imo somewhat demential...
> > > > i recently was thinking what makes many people stupid and thase were
> > > > assumptions (especially false assumptions) ..and this way code that is
> > > > capitalistic is good is imo such way asumption that make stupid
> > > >
> > > > btw pure programing and capitalism is not quite on a way..its rather capitalism
> > > > parasitize on programming..
> > > >
> > > Dijkstra was a notorious leftie. He was also a very clever man, and of
> > > course he right that trying to measure programming productivity by
> > > counting lines written is idiotic.
> > its absolutly not idiotic..its absolutely right...
> > weird is so many people has tendency to oppose obvious things like 2+2=4
> >
> > measuring code by lines is very good.. its not full measure ofc becouse one could write 20k lines in whole life that is much more valuable than much more of something other - but its totally good in some very much important aspect
> >
> > (if dijkstra was leftie it seem to be not as much leftie as I ;c thout i am in a way of rejecting assumptions (which is true leftic imo) sad im getting old and lost form
> note btw the problem if being leftic is rejecting assumptions and being rightie is taking assumption , is there a need of political war between left and right ? i think no - it only need of both those kind to conform to some ground rules (which can be found imo, the rules like not killing, not lefting to die - etc).. in fact does this people that make asumptions totally wrong? (probbaly no as making assumptions may have interesting effects probbaly too)

those ground rules are probably know as some kind of 'culture' (but not necessarely what everyone calls that) ..sadly todeys there are people who attack this ground rules..and this in fact is wrong imo - but after that imo people who reject many asumptions and people who take many can live in quite peace

(still capitalism for example is damn pack of vulgar assumptions that logically is imo rather terrible)

poniedziałek, 31 lipca 2023 o 14:36:19 UTC+2 fir napisał(a):
> poniedziałek, 31 lipca 2023 o 14:16:17 UTC+2 fir napisał(a):
> > poniedziałek, 31 lipca 2023 o 14:10:40 UTC+2 fir napisał(a):
> > > poniedziałek, 31 lipca 2023 o 11:29:44 UTC+2 a...@littlepinkcloud.invalid napisał(a):
> > > > fir <profes...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > how many lines you coded in your life? if you give an answer try to be real
> > > > > (and not count data and duplicates)
> > > > I have no idea. However, I do know it paid for everything, so I guess
> > > > it was enough.
> > > >
> > > > The willingness to accept what is known to be wrong as if it were
> > > > right was displayed very explicitly by Hamming... As so many others,
> > > > he expressed in one of his talks programmer productivity in terms of
> > > > "numbers of lines of code produced". During the discussion I pointed
> > > > out that a programmer should produce solutions, and that, therefore,
> > > > we should not talk about the number of lines of code produced, but
> > > > the number of lines of code used, and that this number ought to be
> > > > booked on the other side of the ledger. His answer was "Well, I know
> > > > that it is inadequate, but it is the only thing we can measure." As
> > > > if this undeniable fact also determines the side of the ledger...
> > > >
> > > > EWD 513. Dijkstra, Newcastle, 1975.
> > > >
> > > > Andrew.
> > > honestly beliving in capitalism too much is imo somewhat demential..
> > > i recently was thinking what makes many people stupid and thase were
> > > assumptions (especially false assumptions) ..and this way code that is
> > > capitalistic is good is imo such way asumption that make stupid
> > >
> > > btw pure programing and capitalism is not quite on a way..its rather capitalism
> > > parasitize on programming..
> > capitalism is sorta 'unreal' term as when i think of coding (and what is important here)
> > capitallism at all not exist here..real terms are like 'logic' or 'tiredness' even 'age' (condition)
> > and many inside things but putting capitalism to all that is sorta weird
> if dijkstra means 'used' not in capitalistic way i also could not agree (unles fore example he hea not general programming but some specific project on mind etc)
>
> for example in recent years i discovered what in (at elast my) programing is important
> are soemthing like 'ideas' (something liek 'milestones') discovery that something (soem elements) plays well.. tehre are potential heavy thousands of this ideas to discover -
> it emans if you obtain and ide the code could be deleted at all but the idea is still
> discovered
> (by the ide i mean sometimes quite small things but you need some experience to discover them and then note this was good/this was important.. for example my notice (what is interesting but i guess many people dont relise) is that 3D graphics engine /3D graphics is in fact
> one function (FillTriangle3D) (eventually yet one entity of camera location which this function takes into consideration, though you can also make this on your side)...another example is
> for exampel my experience with my library for games that you can base it on 2d bitmap of pixels
> and frame_size_x, frame_size_y, providing rescaling this (stretching) when user drags and resize
> window but you also may add cose for changing thex/y bitmap size from keyboard thus allowing
> dynamic rescaling of this bitmap output in games (thsi also work well)
>
> such pack of ideas is imo what makes real value in coding (the bigest problem is age - i could make so much fukin good content of this if i would live 1000 years not more like 25 and then get old and die)

thus death is imo the main problem in programming (or maybe not death but short lifaspan)
- i got no idea hovever what to do with that (second (or another as im not sure if it is strictly
second is bad condition, health and getting old)

it is also to see imo that probably popular mass of people dont see what is best in programming (those ideas) at all (and probably in other domains like physics which is also probably containing of ideas).. they probably see only soem outcome of this

this is probably related to this golden age where people are near such ideas and pop-state where pop-people dissolves them (and flod the world with terrible mass amopunts of stupidity)

(i often feel like im poisoned by this mass stupidity and wonder how i much time in my life i lost on this (90%?) this stupidity flow is then third-case problem, more worse is short life-span)

Ed Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> writes:
>On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 8:53:24=E2=80=AFPM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>[]
>> That is a very hard number to quantify. And in just C code or all codes=
>=20
>> ? At least a half million LOC since 1975 in Fortran 66, Fortran 77, IBM=
>=20
>> 370 Assembler, Basic, Pascal, C, C++, HTML, Perl.=20
>>=20
>> I am the chief shepherd for 730,000 lines of Fortran 77 code and 600,000=
>=20
>> lines of C and mostly C++ code for a Windows desktop engineering=20
>> software product sold commercially.=20
>>=20
>> Lynn
>
>Wow, you've been at it longer than I was.
>(I'm semi-retired now.)

My current working tree has close to three million lines of code. Two
thirds are generated header files; the reset is about 700,000 SLOC of C++
written by a half dozen engineers over a decade.

There are also third party libraries not counted in the above.

It's worth noting that while both Lynn and I started programming
in 1975, we were both in high school at the time.

On 7/31/2023 9:54 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Ed Prochak <edprochak@gmail.com> writes:
>> On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 8:53:24=E2=80=AFPM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> []
>>> That is a very hard number to quantify. And in just C code or all codes=
>> =20
>>> ? At least a half million LOC since 1975 in Fortran 66, Fortran 77, IBM=
>> =20
>>> 370 Assembler, Basic, Pascal, C, C++, HTML, Perl.=20
>>> =20
>>> I am the chief shepherd for 730,000 lines of Fortran 77 code and 600,000=
>> =20
>>> lines of C and mostly C++ code for a Windows desktop engineering=20
>>> software product sold commercially.=20
>>> =20
>>> Lynn
>>
>> Wow, you've been at it longer than I was.
>> (I'm semi-retired now.)
>
> My current working tree has close to three million lines of code. Two
> thirds are generated header files; the reset is about 700,000 SLOC of C++
> written by a half dozen engineers over a decade.
>
> There are also third party libraries not counted in the above.
>
> It's worth noting that while both Lynn and I started programming
> in 1975, we were both in high school at the time.

Yup, I was 14 when I started programming in Fortran 66 in June of 1975.
I took a PhD's hand scribbled algorithms, converted them to Fortran 66,
keypunched them, and got the subroutine card deck to compile on the
Univac 1108.

Lynn

fir ha scritto:
> how many lines you coded in your life? if you give an answer try to be real
> (and not count data and duplicates)
> i myself estimated 200-300k hovever after thinking i think it may be closer to 200k (my newer projects take about 130k or something more but i also got some older i coand count now.. i would say for sure it was no less than 170k but how many above this thios one i can count/memorize now)
>
> are you able to estimate?
>

Forgive me but it seems to me a statistic that will not lead to any
interesting results. I think that every developer, as his experience
increases, he will write more and more reusable code and, consequently,
he will write less code taking advantage of his personal library.

wtorek, 1 sierpnia 2023 o 18:09:45 UTC+2 jak napisał(a):
> fir ha scritto:
> > how many lines you coded in your life? if you give an answer try to be real
> > (and not count data and duplicates)
> > i myself estimated 200-300k hovever after thinking i think it may be closer to 200k (my newer projects take about 130k or something more but i also got some older i coand count now.. i would say for sure it was no less than 170k but how many above this thios one i can count/memorize now)
> >
> > are you able to estimate?
> >
> Forgive me but it seems to me a statistic that will not lead to any
> interesting results. I think that every developer, as his experience
> increases, he will write more and more reusable code and, consequently,
> he will write less code taking advantage of his personal library.

if he vrites library its still a code, and if he uses it it is still a code...dont matter
if it is in library or in project part

Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> wrote:

> [Edsger] Dijkstra was a notorious leftie. He was also a very clever
> man, and of course he right that trying to measure programming
> productivity by counting lines written is idiotic.

That comment about Dijkstra being a leftie, and even notorious for it,
really struck me. I've been intermittently reading Dijkstra's work for
decades, and I've never come across anything particularly left wing.
Have you got any references for that?

Thanks,

Andrew.

On Friday, 4 August 2023 at 18:58:08 UTC+1, a...@littlepinkcloud.invalid wrote:
> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.ar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > [Edsger] Dijkstra was a notorious leftie. He was also a very clever
> > man, and of course he right that trying to measure programming
> > productivity by counting lines written is idiotic.
> That comment about Dijkstra being a leftie, and even notorious for it,
> really struck me. I've been intermittently reading Dijkstra's work for
> decades, and I've never come across anything particularly left wing.
> Have you got any references for that?
>
> Thanks,
>
You haven't been around long enough to remember Edward Nilges. He's
now sadly deceased (he reconciled with the Church before death so is
now almost certainly in heaven). Nilges was very fond of quoting
Dijkstra in support of his views.

Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:
>On Friday, 4 August 2023 at 18:58:08 UTC+1, a...@littlepinkcloud.invalid wrote:
>> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.ar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > [Edsger] Dijkstra was a notorious leftie. He was also a very clever
>> > man, and of course he right that trying to measure programming
>> > productivity by counting lines written is idiotic.
>> That comment about Dijkstra being a leftie, and even notorious for it,
>> really struck me. I've been intermittently reading Dijkstra's work for
>> decades, and I've never come across anything particularly left wing.
>> Have you got any references for that?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>You haven't been around long enough to remember Edward Nilges. He's
>now sadly deceased (he reconciled with the Church before death so is
>now almost certainly in heaven). Nilges was very fond of quoting
>Dijkstra in support of his views.

That doesn't answer the question.

What, specifically, has Dijkstra said that supports your assertion
that he was a "notorious lefty". He actually did some work for a
former employer of mine, and I never heard anything to that effect.

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
[...]
> What, specifically, has Dijkstra said that supports your assertion
> that he was a "notorious lefty". He actually did some work for a
> former employer of mine, and I never heard anything to that effect.

Why is comp.lang.c the place to discuss this?

--
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com
Will write code for food.
void Void(void) { Void(); } /* The recursive call of the void */

In article <jYbzM.81709$cc2c.61610@fx37.iad>,
Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
....
>What, specifically, has Dijkstra said that supports your assertion
>that he was a "notorious lefty". He actually did some work for a
>former employer of mine, and I never heard anything to that effect.

I think that in order to correctly evaluate your question, and, thus, once
evaluates, to sensibly answer it, we need to know what Malcolm's intent was.

Specifically, we need to know whether he intended he depiction of Dijkstra
as a complement or as an insult.

Normally, on Usenet, I would assume the former, but nowadays, there's a lot
of those types who've gotten access.

--
"It does a lot of things half well and it's just a garbage heap of ideas that are
mutually exclusive."

- Ken Thompson, on C++ -

In article <87o7jmk3ue.fsf@nosuchdomain.example.com>,
Keith Thompson <Keith.S.Thompson+u@gmail.com> wrote:
>scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>[...]
>> What, specifically, has Dijkstra said that supports your assertion
>> that he was a "notorious lefty". He actually did some work for a
>> former employer of mine, and I never heard anything to that effect.
>
>Why is comp.lang.c the place to discuss this?

This thread was OT from the get-go. Why complain about it now?

--
The single most important statistic in the US today - the one that explains all the
others - is this: 63 million people thought it was a good idea to vote for this clown
(and will probably do so again). Everything else is secondary to that. Everything else
could be fixed if we can revert this one statistic. Nothing can be fixed until we do.

On 2023-08-04, aph@littlepinkcloud.invalid <aph@littlepinkcloud.invalid> wrote:
> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> [Edsger] Dijkstra was a notorious leftie. He was also a very clever
>> man, and of course he right that trying to measure programming
>> productivity by counting lines written is idiotic.
>
> That comment about Dijkstra being a leftie, and even notorious for it,
> really struck me. I've been intermittently reading Dijkstra's work for
> decades, and I've never come across anything particularly left wing.
> Have you got any references for that?

Dikjstra: GO TO bad; follow structure.

Communism: GO TO other country bad; stay home, follow structure.

Checks out for me.

--
TXR Programming Language: http://nongnu.org/txr
Cygnal: Cygwin Native Application Library: http://kylheku.com/cygnal
Mastodon: @Kazinator@mstdn.ca

On Friday, 4 August 2023 at 20:27:08 UTC+1, Kenny McCormack wrote:
> In article <jYbzM.81709$cc2c....@fx37.iad>,
> Scott Lurndal <sl...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> ...
> >What, specifically, has Dijkstra said that supports your assertion
> >that he was a "notorious lefty". He actually did some work for a
> >former employer of mine, and I never heard anything to that effect.
> I think that in order to correctly evaluate your question, and, thus, once
> evaluates, to sensibly answer it, we need to know what Malcolm's intent was.
>
> Specifically, we need to know whether he intended he depiction of Dijkstra
> as a complement or as an insult.
>
It was just a lighthearted comment. Dijkstra complained about managers
using lines coded as a measure of programmers productivity. But that
should be seen in the context of his overall views.
'

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:

> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Friday, 4 August 2023 , a...@littlepinkcloud.invalid wrote:
>>
>>> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.ar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> [Edsger] Dijkstra was a notorious leftie. He was also a very
>>>> clever man, and of course he right that trying to measure
>>>> programming productivity by counting lines written is idiotic.
>>>
>>> That comment about Dijkstra being a leftie, and even notorious for
>>> it, really struck me. I've been intermittently reading Dijkstra's
>>> work for decades, and I've never come across anything particularly
>>> left wing. Have you got any references for that?
>>
>> You haven't been around long enough to remember Edward Nilges.
>> He's now sadly deceased (he reconciled with the Church before death
>> so is now almost certainly in heaven). Nilges was very fond of
>> quoting Dijkstra in support of his views.
>
> That doesn't answer the question.
>
> What, specifically, has Dijkstra said that supports your assertion
> that he was a "notorious lefty". He actually did some work for a
> former employer of mine, and I never heard anything to that effect.

I recognize that you are sincere in asking your question,
but I would like to ask everyone please keep any discussion
or comments (whether lighthearted or not) about politics
or religion out of comp.lang.c. We have more than enough
useless traffic as it is.

Malcolm McLean <malcolm.arthur.mclean@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, 4 August 2023 at 18:58:08 UTC+1, a...@littlepinkcloud.invalid wrote:
>> Malcolm McLean <malcolm.ar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > [Edsger] Dijkstra was a notorious leftie. He was also a very clever
>> > man, and of course he right that trying to measure programming
>> > productivity by counting lines written is idiotic.
>> That comment about Dijkstra being a leftie, and even notorious for it,
>> really struck me. I've been intermittently reading Dijkstra's work for
>> decades, and I've never come across anything particularly left wing.
>> Have you got any references for that?
>>
> You haven't been around long enough to remember Edward Nilges.

Au contraire, I definitely remember Nilgewater. But I suspect that he
quoted Dijkstra like a drunken man uses a lampost: more for support
than illumination.

LOL,

Andrew.

In article <861qgigq8i.fsf@linuxsc.com>,
Tim Rentsch <tr.17687@z991.linuxsc.com> wrote:
....
>sincere ask not) We recognize I comments religion traffic in everyone
>about have that would (whether out as asking please politics more you
>like lighthearted of it question, your any keep enough than discussion
>are to or comp.lang.c. is. I but or or useless

w/e

As I said, this whole thread was and is OT from the get-go, so why should
you start complaining about it now?

--
Senator Marsha Blackburn (R-TN), who sits on the Judiciary Committee, said it was
"extremely inappropriate" for the president to nominate a Supreme Court justice on a
day ending with the letter "Y", and she said that "Biden is putting the demands of the
radical progressive left ahead of what is best for our nation."