advise for a good beginner windoze assembler?

On 16.01.21 20:03, paul wrote:

advise for a good beginner windoze assembler?

Go to a carpenter?

On 01/16/2021 02:03 PM, paul wrote:

advise for a good beginner windoze assembler?

Masm, Nasm, Fasm... all are good. I prefer Nasm.

Best,
Frank

On 16.01.2021 20:03, paul wrote:

advise for a good beginner windoze assembler?

windoze is an HLL OS, you may need a lot of hints to find its functions.
assembler for windoze is fine if you already know a bit of both.

so I'd advise:
1. look into the (AMD/Intel) CPU manuals for the instruction set.
2. if you're now not confused enough to quit then start reading M$-stuff
3. still interested ? :)  OK then:
4. ask away all your questions (sure to occur) here or in ASM forum.
__
wolfgang

wolfgang kern wrote:

ask away all your questions (sure to occur) here or in ASM forum.

Which is the ASM forum you speak of if not this one?
I have Peter Norton's ASM hand book but it doesn't come with the assembler.

Frank Kotler wrote:

Masm, Nasm, Fasm... all are good. I prefer Nasm.

Name is easy.
Binary installer is harder.
Choosing a beginner assembler even harder still.

In order of suggested above
Masm
Requires visual c
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=12654

Maybe not
MASM https://sourceforge.net/projects/masm611/

Nasm
https://nasm.us/
https://www.nasm.us/pub/nasm/releasebuilds/2.15.05/win64/

Fasm
Maybe here? https://sourceforge.net/projects/fasm/
Or here?
https://flatassembler.net/download.php

Which is the right downloads for Windows 10 (64-bit)?

paul wrote:

In order of suggested above
Masm
Requires visual c
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=12654

My advice after trying to install MASM for an hour?
Never recommend MASM to a beginner.

Reason?
The MASM installer is easily found at Microsoft.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=12654
But it fails to install because it's hungry for Microsoft tools.
  Microsoft Macro Assembler (MASM)
  Microsoft Visual C++ Express Edition 2005 required.

Don't even think of installing the latest Visual C++ as I did.
https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/downloads/
Because it wants an older version.

And don't think just any old older version will work.
https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/older-downloads/

It wants that specific older version.
Which doesn't exist in any Microsoft site that I could find.

Oh sure, you can find plenty of service pack patches for that older version
  https://www.microsoft.com/en-eg/download/details.aspx?id=804
   VS80sp1-KB926749-X86-INTL.exe 24.3 MB
   VS80sp1-KB926747-X86-INTL.exe 32.3 MB
   VS80sp1-KB926748-X86-INTL.exe 43.5 MB
   VS80sp1-KB926750-X86-ENU.exe 19.0 MB
   VS80sp1-KB926751-X86-INTL.exe 29.9 MB

But none of them work without the actual older version.
    Windows Installer:
     The upgrade patch cannot be installed by the Windows Installer
     service because the program to be upgraded may be missing,
     or the upgrade patch may update a different version of the program.
     Verify that the program to be upgraded exists on your computer
     and that you have the correct upgrade patch.

It's a conspiracy, I swear.
If you happen to know where Microsoft hides the "real" 2005 Visual C++,
this noob would love to know where they hid it.

Otherwise, MASM is out of the game in the opening move.

paul wrote:

Otherwise, MASM is out of the game in the opening move.

Reluctantly I gave up on Microsoft MASM in favor of http://www.masm32.com/
which I'll call for lack of the right words, the "masm sdk".

I found out about the "masm sdk" from this tutorial PDF
https://doc.lagout.org/operating%20system%20/Windows/winasmtut.pdf

When I installed that "masm sdk", it created c:\masm32 which
I promptly moved to my working directory c:\mypath\masm32

Then I followed the hello world instructions in that tutorial PDF
creating this "hello.asm" text file, only with mypath substituted
..386
..model flat, stdcall
option casemap :none 

include \mypath\masm32\include\windows.inc
include \mypath\masm32\include\kernel32.inc
include \mypath\masm32\include\masm32.inc 

includelib \mypath\masm32\lib\kernel32.lib
includelib \mypath\masm32\lib\masm32.lib 

..data
  HelloWorld db "Hello World!", 0 

..code
start:
  invoke StdOut, addr HelloWorld 
  invoke ExitProcess, 0 
end start

As per the instructions in the PDF, an object module was created
C:\mypath\masm32\bin\ml.exe /c /Zd /coff hello.asm

And an executable was then created & executed successfully
C:\mypath\masm32\bin\Link /SUBSYSTEM:CONSOLE hello.obj

hello.exe
 Hello World!

The second tutorial example also worked in this first pass test
edit hellow.asm

..386
..model flat, stdcall
option casemap :none 

include \mypath\masm32\include\windows.inc
include \mypath\masm32\include\kernel32.inc
include \mypath\masm32\include\user32.inc 

includelib \mypath\masm32\lib\kernel32.lib
includelib \mypath\masm32\lib\user32.lib 

..data 
 HelloWorld db "Hello World!", 0 
..code
start: 
 invoke MessageBox, NULL, addr HelloWorld, addr HelloWorld, MB_OK 
 invoke ExitProcess, 0 
end start

C:\mypath\masm32\bin\ml.exe /c /Zd /coff hellow.asm
C:\mypath\masm32\bin\Link /SUBSYSTEM:WINDOWS hellow.obj
hellow.exe

This popped up a "Hello World" window with an OK button.

Given the official Microsoft MASM installation failed because it needs
ancient visual c++ software that I couldn't find on the Microsoft site, can
one of you just let me know if this substitute MASM SDK is what you'd
suggest for a beginner like me.

On 01/17/2021 05:38 PM, paul wrote:
....

Name is easy.
Binary installer is harder.
Choosing a beginner assembler even harder still.

In order of suggested above
Masm
Requires visual c
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=12654

Maybe not
MASM https://sourceforge.net/projects/masm611/

Okay if all you want is Windoze...

Nasm
https://nasm.us/
https://www.nasm.us/pub/nasm/releasebuilds/2.15.05/win64/

Good for 'doze, Linux, BSD, Macos. eic.

Fasm
Maybe here? https://sourceforge.net/projects/fasm/
Or here?
https://flatassembler.net/download.php

Probably this one...

Which is the right downloads for Windows 10 (64-bit)?

Any should do...

Best,
Frank

On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 04:35:02 +0100, paul
<nospam@nospicedham.nospam.invalid> wrote:

paul wrote:

In order of suggested above
Masm
Requires visual c
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=12654

Actually it only requires a linker.  Do you think Microsoft would
recommend any but their own?

My advice after trying to install MASM for an hour?
Never recommend MASM to a beginner.

Reason?
The MASM installer is easily found at Microsoft.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=12654
But it fails to install because it's hungry for Microsoft tools.
 Microsoft Macro Assembler (MASM)
 Microsoft Visual C++ Express Edition 2005 required.

MASM v8 is ancient.

Don't even think of installing the latest Visual C++ as I did.
https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/downloads/
Because it wants an older version.

And don't think just any old older version will work.
https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/older-downloads/

It wants that specific older version.
Which doesn't exist in any Microsoft site that I could find.

Oh sure, you can find plenty of service pack patches for that older version
https://www.microsoft.com/en-eg/download/details.aspx?id=804
  VS80sp1-KB926749-X86-INTL.exe 24.3 MB
  VS80sp1-KB926747-X86-INTL.exe 32.3 MB
  VS80sp1-KB926748-X86-INTL.exe 43.5 MB
  VS80sp1-KB926750-X86-ENU.exe 19.0 MB
  VS80sp1-KB926751-X86-INTL.exe 29.9 MB

But none of them work without the actual older version.
   Windows Installer:
    The upgrade patch cannot be installed by the Windows Installer
    service because the program to be upgraded may be missing,
    or the upgrade patch may update a different version of the program.
    Verify that the program to be upgraded exists on your computer
    and that you have the correct upgrade patch.

It's a conspiracy, I swear.
If you happen to know where Microsoft hides the "real" 2005 Visual C++,
this noob would love to know where they hid it.

Otherwise, MASM is out of the game in the opening move.

You absolutely CAN install the current Visual Studio (vs2019) and use
MASM with it.  See
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/assembler/masm/microsoft-macro-assembler-reference


MASM has been included with "Express" versions of Visual Studio at
least since 2012 (don't know about earlier).  The assemblers are
installed by default with the C or C++ developer packages, or they can
be installed manually.

The executables are "ml.exe" (32-bit) and "ml64.exe" (64-bit). 


George

George Neuner wrote:

Actually it only requires a linker.  Do you think Microsoft would
recommend any but their own?

If I can't find the MS URLs, it's cruel to suggest MASM for a beginner.

I am confused by that statement because the 311KB Microsoft MASMsetup.EXE
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=12654
won't install without 62MB Visual C++ 2005 Express Edition installed.

The 311KB MASMsetup.exe errors out and does not install anything.
How did you get around that requirement?

Worse, Visual C++ 2005 Express Edition doesn't exist anywhere on the Microsoft web site (that I can find) and the MASMsetup.EXE won't take the newer Visual C++ installation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Visual_Studio_Express

Are you sure of what you said which is it only needs a linker?
How do you install MASMsetup.exe when it's looking for a specific C++?

MASM v8 is ancient.

I only installed MASM because it was the first assembler on the
suggested list when I had originally asked for experienced advice.

If I can't find the MS URLs, it's cruel to suggest MASM for a beginner.

You absolutely CAN install the current Visual Studio (vs2019) and use
MASM with it.  See
https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/assembler/masm/microsoft-macro-assembler-reference
MASM has been included with "Express" versions of Visual Studio at
least since 2012 (don't know about earlier).  The assemblers are
installed by default with the C or C++ developer packages, or they can
be installed manually.
The executables are "ml.exe" (32-bit) and "ml64.exe" (64-bit). 

Nobody told me that when I asked.
If I can't find the MS URLs, it's cruel to suggest MASM for a beginner.

I would love to know the link that works because every link I had tried failed.
Looking up your suggestion, it appears "Visual Studio Express" is now apparently
renamed "Visual Studio Community" https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/vs/express/

The 2019 1.4KB Visual Studio Community web stub (vs_Community.exe) is
https://visualstudio.microsoft.com/thank-you-downloading-visual-studio/?sku=Community&rel=16

It downloads a much larger installer into
C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\VisualStudio\Packages
which then puts the Visual Studio IDE into
C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio\2019\Community
And it puts shared components in
C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio\Shared

It allows the user to choose either
Visual Studio Community 2019
Visual Studio Enterprise 2019
Visual Studio Professional 2019

The list of individual components is humongous in its entirety
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Compilers, build tools, and runtimes
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C++/CLI support for v142 build tools (14.24)
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MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM build tools (v14.28)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.20)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.21)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.22)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.23)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.24)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.25)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.26)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.27)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.28)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM64 build tools (v14.20)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM64 build tools (v14.21)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM64 build tools (v14.22)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM64 build tools (v14.23)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM64 build tools (v14.24)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM64 build tools (v14.25)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM64 build tools (v14.26)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM64 build tools (v14.27)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM64 build tools (v14.28)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM64 Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.20)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM64 Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.21)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM64 Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.22)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM64 Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.23)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM64 Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.24)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM64 Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.25)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM64 Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.26)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM64 Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.27)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ ARM64 Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.28)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ x64/x86 build tools (v14.20)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ x64/x86 build tools (v14.21)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ x64/x86 build tools (v14.22)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ x64/x86 build tools (v14.23)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ x64/x86 build tools (v14.24)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ x64/x86 build tools (v14.25)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ x64/x86 build tools (v14.26)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ x64/x86 build tools (v14.27)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ x64/x86 build tools (v14.28)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ x64/x86 Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.20)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ x64/x86 Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.21)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ x64/x86 Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.22)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ x64/x86 Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.23)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ x64/x86 Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.24)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ x64/x86 Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.25)
MSVC v142 - VS 2019 C++ x64/x86 Spectre-mitigated libs (v14.26)

Click here to read the complete article

Another modern way to get MASM is through the build tools download:
https://aka.ms/buildtools

Especially if one has an existing development environment or preferred editor.

Kind regards, bitRAKE

On 2021-01-19, paul <nospam@nospicedham.nospam.invalid> wrote:

George Neuner wrote:

Actually it only requires a linker.  Do you think Microsoft would
recommend any but their own?

If I can't find the MS URLs, it's cruel to suggest MASM for a beginner.

I think people were trying to steer you towards nasm, which has the easy
to find binaries you've been dreaming of.

Visual Studio is a huge, complicated commercial product. It's also
really popular with Windows Developers, so there's a good chance you
already knew how to navigate the installer and the components.

That's it.
If MASM is in that list, I don't see where.

If you're deadset on masm, it's the "MSVC xxx build tools" component,
but most developers choose "Workloads", and you'll get it with the C++
one.

Just use nasm, it's great. The skills you learn will transfer to any
other assmbler easily.

Tavis.

--
 _o)            $ lynx lock.cmpxchg8b.com
 /\\  _o)  _o)  $ finger taviso@sdf.org
_\_V _( ) _( )  @taviso

On 17.01.2021 23:31, paul wrote:

wolfgang kern wrote:

ask away all your questions (sure to occur) here or in ASM forum.

Which is the ASM forum you speak of if not this one?
I have Peter Norton's ASM hand book but it doesn't come with the assembler.

NASM, FASM and I think even MASM have their own forum, google mayu help.
__
wolfgang

On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 04:14:44 GMT, Tavis Ormandy <taviso@gmail.com> wrote:

On 2021-01-19, paul <nospam@nospicedham.nospam.invalid> wrote:

George Neuner wrote:

Actually it only requires a linker.  Do you think Microsoft would
recommend any but their own?

If I can't find the MS URLs, it's cruel to suggest MASM for a

beginner.

I think people were trying to steer you towards nasm, which has the

easy

to find binaries you've been dreaming of.

Visual Studio is a huge, complicated commercial product. It's also
really popular with Windows Developers, so there's a good chance you
already knew how to navigate the installer and the components.

That's it.
If MASM is in that list, I don't see where.

If you're deadset on masm, it's the "MSVC xxx build tools" component,
but most developers choose "Workloads", and you'll get it with the C++
one.

Just use nasm, it's great. The skills you learn will transfer to any
other assmbler easily.

Just be aware that Nasm code isn't directly assemblable (word?) under
Masm;

notably masm's 'dup' isn't supported and segment overides must be
internal, i.e.
[Nasm]   mov [es:bx], dl
[Masm]   mov es:[bx], dl

there's a few other diffrences, especially if you get into macro
programming.
Heck; download nasm and read the nasm.doc!

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Tavis Ormandy wrote:

I think people were trying to steer you towards nasm, which has the easy
to find binaries you've been dreaming of.

I tried Nasm right after the first MASM attempt failed, as I went through
each of the suggestions faithfully, in the order they were presented to me.

I didn't mention that failed effort because I haven't found a good tutorial
that works the first time (which all good tutorials should).

Strangely, there is no "hello world" in Jeff Duntemann "Assembly Language
Step-by-Step" paperback where his philosophy is different from mine.

Mine is that we learn empirically where we get things working before we
break them, and his is to break them before we get anything working.

As you advised, I found that Nasm installed far better than did Masm
https://www.nasm.us/pub/nasm/releasebuilds/2.15.05/win64/

In my paperback Jeff Duntemann assembly language book, the first code is
an "eat.asm" example as the first program deep into the book at page 228

; Source name : EAT.ASM
; Executable name : EAT.COM
; Code model: : Real mode flat model
; Version : 1.0
; Created date : 6/4/1999
; Last update : 9/10/1999
; Author : Jeff Duntemann
; Description : A simple example of a DOS .COM file programmed using
;               NASM-IDE 1.1 and NASM 0.98.
[BITS 16] ; Set 16 bit code generation
[ORG 0100H] ; Set code start address to 100h (COM file)
[SECTION .text] ; Section containing code
START:
 mov dx, eatmsg ; Mem data ref without [] loads the ADDRESS!
 mov ah,9 ; Function 9 displays text to standard output.
 int 21H ; INT 21H makes the call into DOS.

 mov ax, 04C00H ; This DOS function exits the program
 int 21H ; and returns control to DOS.

[SECTION .data] ; Section containing initialized data

eatmsg db "Eat at Joe's!", 13, 10, "$" ; Here's our message

I then ran:
nasm -f BIN EAT.ASM -o EAT.COM

This created "eat.com" which, when executed, errored with
 Unsupported 16-Bit-Application
 The program or feature "??\C;\mypath\nasm\eat.com" cannot start or run due
 to incompatibility with 64-bit versions of Windows.
 Please contact the software vendor to ask if a 64-bit Windows compatible
 version is available.

Changing this line in "eat.asm" didn't change the error message
; [BITS 16] ; Set 16 bit code generation
; [BITS 32] ; Set 32 bit code generation
[BITS 64] ; Set 64 bit code generation
Nor did commenting it out entirely.

I probably have to figure out how to specify a 64-bit address
or 64-bit registers, as something is wrong above.

I didn't bring this up because this problem is due to me being too much of
a noob to know why I even need to set the number of bits, nor why no matter
what setting I use, I get the same error.

What I really need is a decent Nasm tutorial which starts with a working
"hello world" example. Then I can worry about the intricacies of assembly
language coding on a 64-bit Windows 10 box.

Visual Studio is a huge, complicated commercial product. It's also
really popular with Windows Developers, so there's a good chance you
already knew how to navigate the installer and the components.

Personally, I like simple but I do not disagree MS is popular with Windows
developers. I'm not a Windows developer. I'm just a person.

If MASM is in that list, I don't see where.

If you're deadset on masm, it's the "MSVC xxx build tools" component,
but most developers choose "Workloads", and you'll get it with the C++
one.

I'm not dead set on anything. I just want to follow a decent tutorial on
assembly language programming for Windows that works from the start.

Just use nasm, it's great. The skills you learn will transfer to any
other assmbler easily.

I'm OK with Nasm. As I said I was simply faithfully following advice given.

My Nasm problem isn't in the installer but in the tutorial since not only
didn't the Duntemann book have an "hello world", it seems to use gcc, where
if I had wanted to use a compiler, I would have started with a higher level
language to learn.

Any decent Nasm tutorial you know of?

On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 13:47:17 GMT, paul
<nospam@nospicedham.nospam.invalid> wrote:

Tavis Ormandy wrote:

I think people were trying to steer you towards nasm, which has the
easy to find binaries you've been dreaming of.

I tried Nasm right after the first MASM attempt failed, as I went
through each of the suggestions faithfully, in the order they were
presented to me.

I didn't mention that failed effort because I haven't found a good
tutorial that works the first time (which all good tutorials should).

Strangely, there is no "hello world" in Jeff Duntemann "Assembly
Language Step-by-Step" paperback where his philosophy is different
from mine.

Mine is that we learn empirically where we get things working before
we break them, and his is to break them before we get anything
working.

As you advised, I found that Nasm installed far better than did Masm
https://www.nasm.us/pub/nasm/releasebuilds/2.15.05/win64/

In my paperback Jeff Duntemann assembly language book, the first code
is an "eat.asm" example as the first program deep into the book at
page 228

; Source name : EAT.ASM
; Executable name : EAT.COM
; Code model: : Real mode flat model
; Version : 1.0
; Created date : 6/4/1999
; Last update : 9/10/1999
; Author : Jeff Duntemann
; Description : A simple example of a DOS .COM file programmed using
;               NASM-IDE 1.1 and NASM 0.98.
[BITS 16] ; Set 16 bit code generation
[ORG 0100H] ; Set code start address to 100h (COM file)
[SECTION .text] ; Section containing code
START:
 mov dx, eatmsg ; Mem data ref without [] loads the ADDRESS!
 mov ah,9 ; Function 9 displays text to standard output.
 int 21H ; INT 21H makes the call into DOS.

 mov ax, 04C00H ; This DOS function exits the program
 int 21H ; and returns control to DOS.

[SECTION .data] ; Section containing initialized data

eatmsg db "Eat at Joe's!", 13, 10, "$" ; Here's our message

I then ran:
nasm -f BIN EAT.ASM -o EAT.COM

This created "eat.com" which, when executed, errored with
 Unsupported 16-Bit-Application
 The program or feature "??\C;\mypath\nasm\eat.com" cannot start or
 run due to incompatibility with 64-bit versions of Windows.
 Please contact the software vendor to ask if a 64-bit Windows
 compatible version is available.

Changing this line in "eat.asm" didn't change the error message
; [BITS 16] ; Set 16 bit code generation
; [BITS 32] ; Set 32 bit code generation
[BITS 64] ; Set 64 bit code generation
Nor did commenting it out entirely.

I probably have to figure out how to specify a 64-bit address
or 64-bit registers, as something is wrong above.

I didn't bring this up because this problem is due to me being too
much of a noob to know why I even need to set the number of bits, nor
why no matter what setting I use, I get the same error.

No, it's because the created "application" will only work under DOS or an
emulated environment -nothing to do with the BITS setting; W10 doesn't
have a DOS compatible subsystem out of the box. (32bit Win XP is fine!)

What I really need is a decent Nasm tutorial which starts with a
working "hello world" example. Then I can worry about the intricacies
of assembly language coding on a 64-bit Windows 10 box.

you'll need DOSEMU or DOSBOX or somesuch.

[]

I'm OK with Nasm. As I said I was simply faithfully following advice
given.

My Nasm problem isn't in the installer but in the tutorial since not
only didn't the Duntemann book have an "hello world", it seems to use
gcc, where if I had wanted to use a compiler, I would have started
with a higher level language to learn.

Any decent Nasm tutorial you know of?

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:

No, it's because the created "application" will only work under DOS or an
emulated environment -nothing to do with the BITS setting; W10 doesn't
have a DOS compatible subsystem out of the box. (32bit Win XP is fine!)

Thanks for that advice as I want to start with something working like a
"hello world", and then proceed from there with at least the first program
working. That's how tutorials are supposed to work anyways.

I guess that probably means I need to change the original question to ask
for an assembler that works with a modern operating system like Win10 x64.

What I really need is a decent Nasm tutorial which starts with a
working "hello world" example. Then I can worry about the intricacies
of assembly language coding on a 64-bit Windows 10 box.

you'll need DOSEMU or DOSBOX or somesuch.

Does that mean there are no free assemblers (along with beginner tutorials)
that work native on a modern Win10 x64?

On 2021-01-19, paul <nospam@nospicedham.nospam.invalid> wrote:

Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
Thanks for that advice as I want to start with something working like a
"hello world", and then proceed from there with at least the first program
working. That's how tutorials are supposed to work anyways.

I guess that probably means I need to change the original question to ask
for an assembler that works with a modern operating system like Win10 x64.

The assembler isn't the issue, you're trying to assemble a program
written for DOS. You need to find a tutorial designed for the system
you're targetting. Which language do you usually write in? If you're a C
programmer, you wouldn't expect CreateWindowEx() to work on DOS, and
likewise int 21h doesn't work on Windows.

The assemblers suggested can assemble programs for Windows 10, you've
been given good advice.

you'll need DOSEMU or DOSBOX or somesuch.

Does that mean there are no free assemblers (along with beginner tutorials)
that work native on a modern Win10 x64?

Do you mean "beginner" in the sense that you're an experienced Win32
developer, but not familiar with assembly?

Tavis.

--
 _o)            $ lynx lock.cmpxchg8b.com
 /\\  _o)  _o)  $ finger taviso@sdf.org
_\_V _( ) _( )  @taviso

On Tue, 19 Jan 2021 07:10:12 +0100, wolfgang kern
<nowhere@nospicedham.never.at> wrote:

NASM, FASM and I think even MASM have their own forum, google mayu help.

https://www.asmcommunity.net/
--
aen

On 01/19/2021 12:37 PM, paul wrote:
....

Does that mean there are no free assemblers (along with beginner tutorials)
that work native on a modern Win10 x64?

Free assemblers, yes. Tutorials may not be so easy.

If you installed Nasm using the installer, DO NOT USE the uninstaller! I   cannot confirm this, but I am told that it will delete "valuable programs" as well as Nasm,

Nasm does not come with a linker. Golink is popular. Many others will work.

There is an example of "Hello World" for Windows64 on the Nasm forum: http:forum.nasm.us It is not a tutorial.

I haven't run Windows since win98 so I can't help you much. I'll try (again) to find that example,

Best,
Frank

I'll try (again) to find that example,

https://forum.nasm.us/index.php?topic=2656.msg11959#msg11959

Not a tutorial.

Best,
Frank

Tavis Ormandy wrote:

The assembler isn't the issue, you're trying to assemble a program
written for DOS. You need to find a tutorial designed for the system
you're targetting.

I apologize if I didn't know enough to ask the right question.

I just want to assemble a few programs on the Windows 10 x64 command line.

I would have called that "DOS" but it seems it's not DOS at all based on
what others said, so I don't know what else to call that command interface.

 I press the Windows key & the "r" key, and then I type "cmd"
 and then I press the "enter" key. Whatever CLI that happens to
 be called, is what I want the program I assemble to work inside of.

Which language do you usually write in? If you're a C
programmer, you wouldn't expect CreateWindowEx() to work on DOS, and
likewise int 21h doesn't work on Windows.

I am not a developer. I'm just a person. I just want to follow a basic
tutorial that takes a noob through the first set of five or ten programs.

Have you seen the Android Studio tutorials (in Kotlin & in Java) for
example? In an hour or two, you have a handful of programs working on your
cellphone, where none of them fail in my experience.

The only time you get a failure is when you go off script, and then you can
back up and go back on script and they suddenly work again.

Surely such a tutorial must exist for an assembler tutorial on Windows 10.

The assemblers suggested can assemble programs for Windows 10, you've
been given good advice.

Are you sure MASM is good advice for a noob if they also have to install
hundreds of megabytes of software just to get a 311 kilobyte assembler to
work?

And, is Nasm good advice for a noob if the tutorials they're using
(admittedly obviously lousy tutorials) result in failed programs from the
start?

All a noob beginner wants is a tutorial that results in code that works.

It's ok if that code is super simple (why do you think "hello world" is a
standard in almost all programming languages anyways?).

Do you mean "beginner" in the sense that you're an experienced Win32
developer, but not familiar with assembly?

The last time I took an IBM assembly language class was way back in the
sixties, where my first language was Fortran in the seventies, and my second
was COBOL and PL/1 was my third, still in the seventies, and that was the
last programming class I ever took.

We're talking punched cards of IBM JCL (in the first few cards) and then,
much later, being able to type at terminals (before modems, which were "new
fangled" decades later, when the AT&T phone was put into the cushions but we
still sat at "terminals" and waited for our folded paper to be pulled off
the dot matrix printer and put in the bins by alphabetical login names.

All this, of course, predates the personal computer, linux, etc., but what
was then and is now, is that a good tutorial is an empirical thing, much as
a good physics lab is empirical more so than theoretical.

What I'm looking for is an empirical assembly language tutorial for use on a
modern Windows desktop, where that empirical tutorial is much like that of
Android Studio, which is about as perfect as a tutorial can be in my
humblest of noob opinions.

Did you ever take a lab class in school?
The lab tells you exactly what to do, does it not?
You learn by watching what happens, but the lab is designed to work.

All I want is an assembly language tutorial that works just like a lab works
in physics or chemistry or biology, where the lab is designed to work for
everyone.

If the lab doesn't work, either it's a terrible lab, or a terrible student,
but more often any lab that doesn't work is just a poorly designed lab.

The tutorial I want is like a chemistry experiment lab, where the guy
writing the lab knows what's supposed to happen. The noob doing the lab just
makes it happen as the lab was written.

So far I haven't found that tutorial yet as the lab includes the equipment
(the lab is worthless without the equipment).

The assembly language tutorial is worthless without the assembler in that
respect just as a chemistry lab without chemicals is worthless as a lab.

On 2021-01-20, paul <nospam@nospicedham.nospam.invalid> wrote:

Tavis Ormandy wrote:

The assembler isn't the issue, you're trying to assemble a program
written for DOS. You need to find a tutorial designed for the system
you're targetting.

I apologize if I didn't know enough to ask the right question.

I just want to assemble a few programs on the Windows 10 x64 command line.

I would have called that "DOS" but it seems it's not DOS at all based on
what others said, so I don't know what else to call that command interface.

Ah-ha, right, that was the source of the confusion. It's a reasonable
mustake, 32-bit Windows *could* run DOS programs using virtual 8086 mode
(a sort of emulation), so your program would have just worked!

Did you ever take a lab class in school?
The lab tells you exactly what to do, does it not?
You learn by watching what happens, but the lab is designed to work.

I feel your frustration, but you're trying to jump in at the deep end
with native win64 assembly language. This is just opinion, but I think
starting with C or C++ would be a better option. If you want to learn
assembly as you go, you can examine the code the compiler generates and
try to follow along with what it's doing.

One fun tool you can look at is compiler explorer, take a look:

https://godbolt.org/z/WW3383

You write some C on the left, and it shows you nicely formatted
assembly on the right. You can try changing something, and watch what
happens to the generated code.

Tavis.

--
 _o)            $ lynx lock.cmpxchg8b.com
 /\\  _o)  _o)  $ finger taviso@sdf.org
_\_V _( ) _( )  @taviso

Paul,

I press the Windows key & the "r" key, and then I type "cmd"
and then I press the "enter" key. Whatever CLI that happens to
be called, is what I want the program I assemble to work inside of.

The problem is that you can run true (16-bit) DOS programs[1] (using INT 21h
and whatnot) as well as CLI (Command Line Interface - Windows Console)
programs (using the full gamut of Windows DLLs) in there.

[1] Caveat emptor: I'm using Win XP myself.  I have no idea if still works
under Win10.

IOW, mentioning /where/ you want to run it doesn't tell us much I'm afraid.

Could you give a few examples of the kind of programs you think you want to
make ?  Than we can tell you which environment (DOS or CLI) you are aiming
for.

Remark: It doesn't really matter which one of the above you start with, as
long as you start with console I/O (non-GUI) based programs.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser