On 2021-09-12 09:08, AdaMagica wrote:
> DrPi schrieb am Samstag, 11. September 2021 um 17:24:45 UTC+2:
>> Even if I just started using GtkAda, I find it very powerful.
>> The big problem is documentation. Of course, there are the reference
>> manual and the (small) user guide but I miss a document explaining the
>> use of all these functionalities.
>
> A good introduction into GtkAda is direly needed. Trial and error cost me
> enormously much time.
> The GtkAda UG and RM are a bad joke.

I think you rather mean GTK introduction because GtkAda follows GTK to
the letter. There are few advanced topics of interplay between GtkAda
objects and GObject etc, but that is not required in the beginning.
Basically, you know GTK, you know GtkAda.

Regarding GTK introduction, it would require a genius to write that. GTK
is incredibly messy and full of small details you must know before you
started. I have no idea how anybody could summarize that in a compact
form. There exist various GTK "getting started." All of them, while
describing important things, miss minor details essential to write an
actual application. There seems no such thing as overview in the case of
GTK.

And things are far worse for those who get lured by GLADE. GLADE further
obscures what is going on, what has to be done. Be happy you did not
step into that...

--
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Le 12/09/2021 à 10:52, Dmitry A. Kazakov a écrit :
> On 2021-09-12 09:08, AdaMagica wrote:
>> DrPi schrieb am Samstag, 11. September 2021 um 17:24:45 UTC+2:
>>> Even if I just started using GtkAda, I find it very powerful.
>>> The big problem is documentation. Of course, there are the reference
>>> manual and the (small) user guide but I miss a document explaining the
>>> use of all these functionalities.
>>
>> A good introduction into GtkAda is direly needed. Trial and error cost me
>> enormously much time.
>> The GtkAda UG and RM are a bad joke.
>
> I think you rather mean GTK introduction because GtkAda follows GTK to
> the letter.
I don't fully agree with you.
I already found Gtk examples I've not been able to use directly with
GtkAda because of Ada implementation. Or at least, it was not the best
way to do things. Mostly due to the GtkAda OO implementation. Events and
customized widgets are good examples.

I also loose big amount of time searching for how to do things.

There are few advanced topics of interplay between GtkAda
> objects and GObject etc, but that is not required in the beginning.
> Basically, you know GTK, you know GtkAda.
>
> Regarding GTK introduction, it would require a genius to write that. GTK
> is incredibly messy and full of small details you must know before you
> started. I have no idea how anybody could summarize that in a compact
> form. There exist various GTK "getting started." All of them, while
> describing important things, miss minor details essential to write an
> actual application. There seems no such thing as overview in the case of
> GTK.
>
They may be not perfect but they have the merit to exist.

I think the the tutorial I've found is a good one to start.
It starts from scratch which is not as easy as one could think it is : a
basic application never ends. The main window closes but the exe never
stops. Quite disturbing.
When you create a basic GtkAda project with GPS, you get an application
with such a behavior. At first, I thought I did something wrong when
installing GtkAda. I then found the tutorial and discovered this
behavior is the correct one.

> And things are far worse for those who get lured by GLADE. GLADE further
> obscures what is going on, what has to be done. Be happy you did not
> step into that...
>
I tried Glade once and quickly changed my mind. I don't say it's a bad
tool. Just that, like you said, things are more obscure using it. As I
like to understand what I do, this is not the way to go for me right now.
I did the same thing with WxPython. I learned to construct my GUI
programmatically. Then, when I've been comfortable with it I switched to
wxFormBuilder for some of my projects.

URL to the French tutorial I use :
https://zestedesavoir.com/tutoriels/645/apprenez-a-programmer-avec-ada/555_ada-et-gtk-la-programmation-evenementielle/2676_gtkada-introduction-et-installation/

One problem with this tutorial is that it is outdated.

On 2021-09-12 15:00, DrPi wrote:
> Le 12/09/2021 à 10:52, Dmitry A. Kazakov a écrit :
>> On 2021-09-12 09:08, AdaMagica wrote:
>>> DrPi schrieb am Samstag, 11. September 2021 um 17:24:45 UTC+2:
>>>> Even if I just started using GtkAda, I find it very powerful.
>>>> The big problem is documentation. Of course, there are the reference
>>>> manual and the (small) user guide but I miss a document explaining the
>>>> use of all these functionalities.
>>>
>>> A good introduction into GtkAda is direly needed. Trial and error
>>> cost me
>>> enormously much time.
>>> The GtkAda UG and RM are a bad joke.
>>
>> I think you rather mean GTK introduction because GtkAda follows GTK to
>> the letter.
> I don't fully agree with you.
> I already found Gtk examples I've not been able to use directly with
> GtkAda because of Ada implementation. Or at least, it was not the best
> way to do things.

Well, you are supposed to use GValues in GTK. GtkAda just makes life
much easier for you by adding a typed layer to connect and handle the
events. How it works is well explained in the documentation. E.g.

https://docs.adacore.com/live/wave/gtkada/html/gtkada_ug/signals.html

The problem is that you started with that, skipped reading for later
because it was too much reading. If you had started the GTK's way first,
namely with GValues, then after pulling much hairs, read the stuff more
carefully, then you would rather say, "Aha, that is a much better way to
do this. Thanks."

> Mostly due to the GtkAda OO implementation. Events and
> customized widgets are good examples.

Right, because when you begin with GtkAda with no prior knowledge of
GTK, you are at a complete loss.

Luckily, you do not yet understand how deep is the abyss! (:-))

> I also loose big amount of time searching for how to do things.

Because GTK is a mess. Nobody ever knows how to do this or that in GTK.
I keep the GTK sources at hand to consult to just to understand what is
going on. [ It was a lot easier a decade ago, when Google was a search
engine and GTK topics were not spammed into oblivion by Python and C#
garbage sites. ]

> I think the the tutorial I've found is a good one to start.
> It starts from scratch which is not as easy as one could think it is : a
> basic application never ends. The main window closes but the exe never
> stops. Quite disturbing.

Then the tutorial is broken. If you look at GtkAda samples and tests
they all contain the basic GTK frame with On_Delete_Event and On_Destroy.

--
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de