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Re: Hugh Aguilar - TESTRA - What really happened there?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 23 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

You really show your ugly character here. I took the direct copy of this whole thread and PDFed it. Prove me wrong then. You just make everything up as it suits you - your usual behaviour. And to post this very kind letter here I find D

Re: Hugh Aguilar - TESTRA - What really happened there?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 23 Hours 55 Minutes ago by: Rick C

Yes, and from time to time he snares others into his time loop vortex, such as you. I spent my turn trying to converse with him and Juergen but they are both unresponsive to reason. Juergen completely fails to understand that using prof

Re: Hugh Aguilar - TESTRA - What really happened there?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 1 Day 5 Hours ago by: Hugh Aguilar

I would not trust anything that Juergen Pintaske produces. It seems very likely that he has edited this to make me appear to say things that I did not say. Juergen has a long history of twisting people's words to make them seem to be agre

Re: Hugh Aguilar - TESTRA - What really happened there?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 1 Day 5 Hours ago by: Hugh Aguilar

This was incorrect. Only the A and B fields need an ALU, but the M field does not (The M field contains instructions for accessing memory, hence the 'M'). John Hart is a weakling. He has been bullied by his big brother Tom (two years ol

Re: Hugh Aguilar - TESTRA - What really happened there?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 1 Day 5 Hours ago by: Hugh Aguilar

This is certainly Tom Hart impersonating John Hart. When I stopped by and spoke to John Hart, I told him that my processor design was VLIW and was for Forth, but it was not derived from the MiniForth RACE. My TOYF has three fields and the

Re: Can't install GForth on Android

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 1 Day 19 Hours ago by: dxforth

I find the latter works when first installed but exit and try again it's stuck in a loop attempting to unpack to sdcard. Restarting Android doesn't help. Perhaps there's a datafile somewhere that needs deleting?

Re: Can't install GForth on Android

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 1 Day 20 Hours ago by: lehs

.... Today a version 20210610 was loaded automatically and it works. Anyway, I can now go back to 20201007 in the future if needed.

Re: Hugh Aguilar - TESTRA - What really happened there?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 2 Days 3 Hours ago by: dxforth

It will only lead to disappointment like the alleged sacking which took two years to retract.

Re: hacking a trace output in forth 79?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 2 Days 3 Hours ago by: luser droog

[snip] Staring at that trace output, it was irritating to see "lit" all over the place and not know what number was being pushed. So I added a tracing LIT in which I was unable to use U. .Really exercising the assembly lately. Some macr

Re: Hugh Aguilar - TESTRA - What really happened there?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 2 Days 10 Hours ago by: Jon Nicoll

I'm just shooting from the peanut gallery here ... but isn't the recent takeaway from this the news that Hugh has a brother, ?also a Forth Programmer?, who also worked for Testra at one point, on a different project (the HPGL one)? Don't

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 2 Days 15 Hours ago by: dxforth

When conventional wisdom says don't do at run-time what can be done at compile-time, it's going to raise eyebrows. OOP gives me hives while others swear by it. Who am I to judge?

Re: Hugh Aguilar - TESTRA - What really happened there?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 2 Days 17 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

I am sorry, but your google translation into English is difficult to understand. I can only guess, that you want to say that the value of a professional person is in its profile and achievements. That is how I see it as well. Any work

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 2 Days 18 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

It is not a new technique, but it is also not that common to see in Forth programs. Of course their equivalents can be written, but not necessarily by variable argument counts determined at run time and passed to a function. There is n

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 2 Days 18 Hours ago by: dxforth

Not sure the above examples represent anything new. Their equivalent can't be written in other languages? The parameter list would be passed as an address (how those languages work) but how is that bad?

Re: Hugh Aguilar - TESTRA - What really happened there?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 2 Days 19 Hours ago by: Fourthy Forth

In Japan sue for not recognising kudos, money money. Persons reputation is worth money. Work done and accomplishments=reputation, money. Seem big in forth.

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 2 Days 19 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

Yes, I agree it would not be Forth anymore if variable length parameter lists required that kind of additional support, but it's not necessary. One can pass variable length parameters in standard Forth. The trivial kind of variable len

Re: F79 reading from files

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 2 Days 23 Hours ago by: Nils M Holm

I did something similar in SOL-86 (http://t3x.org/bits/hypersol.html), but even simpler. Each block has a header of the form (L nnnnn mmmmm comment ... ) where nnnnn links to the previous block (or 0) and mmmmm links to the next block (

Re: F79 reading from files

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 3 Days 3 Hours ago by: dxforth

Very comfortable using 'screen files' and editor for forth source. It became 'unfashionable' at a time when Forth was desperately trying to appeal to those who were never going to accept Forth, no matter what. Circa 1989 and ANS:

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 3 Days 6 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

Yes, but your :APPLY is most likely just taking two parameters off the stack and not passing the list elements all at once on the stack to the function, which is the example that Paul gave, so I think it has no relevance to the current

Re: F79 reading from files

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 3 Days 7 Hours ago by: Andy Valencia

If your experience is anything like mine, you'll be surprised at how _not_ bizarre working with source screens is. I ended up with a thin layer of "file system" to organize the blocks: http://sources.vsta.org/forthos/fs.html and th

Re: F79 reading from files

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 3 Days 12 Hours ago by: S Jack

In my current Forth I haven't bothered to implement INCLUDE and INCLUDED just implemented FLOAD and a single 4K buffer for file reads. Get by just fine. The one downside is a file being loaded can't include another file and then continue

Re: F79 reading from files

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 3 Days 12 Hours ago by: S Jack

I very much like block files and screens. The way they work is neat. Can't justify them but I wouldn't have a Forth without them. With them one has virtual memory for tables and the block access can easily be modified to point to memor

Re: F79 reading from files

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 3 Days 12 Hours ago by: luser droog

That does seem to be the case. I've decided to try to implement screens, however. Both for *historicity*, and coolness factor (for being so bizarre), and because it offers a simple way for me to embed high level forth source directly into

Re: Can't install GForth on Android

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 3 Days 14 Hours ago by: le...@hotmail.se

Version 2020.10.07 works fine.

Re: Can't install GForth on Android

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 3 Days 14 Hours ago by: Chuck Jackson

What were you able to use that worked?

Re: F79 reading from files

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 3 Days 14 Hours ago by: Anton Ertl

That's the same with standard screens since Forth started, except that screens are 1K chars and screen-lines are 64 chars; but screen-lines only play a role for "\" and for LIST; for LOAD the whole screen is a line. Somehow screens fell

Re: F79 reading from files

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 3 Days 14 Hours ago by: minf...@arcor.de

Yes, that was "an old surprise". :-) Evaluating 1k of one block in one go looks so attractive...

Re: Can't install GForth on Android

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 3 Days 15 Hours ago by: le...@hotmail.se

Thank you dxforth! I've found some versions that works. This really have greate impact on my well-being.

Re: Can't install GForth on Android

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 3 Days 16 Hours ago by: dxforth

FWIW I tried installing it (Android 10) and ran into similar issues.

Re: F79 reading from files

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 3 Days 17 Hours ago by: Andy Valencia

I think I've mentioned an early bug in ForthOS; I pointed the TIB at the block in its entirety (4k source screen in ForthOS). Elegant, I thought, but it breaks when the source uses a word which ends at the 80th column; when viewed as a s

Re: Can't install GForth on Android

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 3 Days 18 Hours ago by: dxforth

No idea but did you reinstall the original working apk or a later one? https://net2o.de/android/

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 3 Days 18 Hours ago by: Doug Hoffman

I don't know Lisp so I can't comment. .... FMS determines the number of arguments at run-time, not at compile time. The lists are dynamically resizable. All objects fit in one cell in FMS so it is simple to use a variable: i{ 1 2 3

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 3 Days 19 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

.... IIUC, this is not the same as Paul's Lisp example. In that example APPLY is not iterating the function, the function itself does the iteration, e.g. in Lisp one can write (+ 1 2) or (+ 1 2 3 4 5) so the Lisp example of (apply

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 3 Days 20 Hours ago by: Doug Hoffman

.... .... Not anything. :apply must receive an object that responds to the :each iterator message. If it isn't an object it will crash. If the object doesn't know :each it will say "message not understood". Oforth does it the same wa

Re: Can't install GForth on Android

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 3 Days 22 Hours ago by: le...@hotmail.se

The system loads but no files is written and even though all permission is set the operating system doesn't allow GForth to read or write files.

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 4 Days ago by: minf...@arcor.de

Neat. But I guess that there is no compile-time check, :apply will eat anything thrown to it.

Re: F79 reading from files

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 4 Days 1 Hour ago by: Anton Ertl

As others mention, in the standard you have REFILL that decides internally based on what the input source is. Classically, you don't have REFILL. The various words (QUIT for terminal input, LOAD for blocks, and later INCLUDE for files,

Re: F79 reading from files

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 4 Days 4 Hours ago by: dxforth

Forth-79 had no concept of 'files'. Input came from console (BLK=0) or blocks (BLK<>0). ANS introduced SOURCE-ID which extends BLK=0. When BLK is 0, input is from console, files or EVALUATE as determined by SOURCE-ID. Thus REFILL in QU

Re: F79 reading from files

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 4 Days 7 Hours ago by: NN

https://forth-standard.org/standard/core/QUIT uses refill https://forth-standard.org/standard/core/REFILL attempts to fill the buffer from the source. https://forth-standard.org/standard/core/SOURCE-ID was defined in the core exten

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 4 Days 8 Hours ago by: Doug Hoffman

FMS2, ANS Forth extension. I believe it's still Forth. -Doug 0 ' + i{ 1 2 3 4 5 } :apply . \ => 15 ok 0e ' f+ f{ 1.1 2.45 3 4.6 5 } :apply f. \ => 16.15 ok 0 ' + i{ 1 2 3 4 5 8 900 64 5 0 77 } :apply . \ => 1069 ok [: emit space

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 4 Days 11 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

I'm familiar with the expression, and just didn't see how it applied to the context. No I don't think so. '(1 2 3) is a memory structure in Lisp for which there could be a Forth equivalent, perhaps an array plus a cell indicating its l

F79 reading from files

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 4 Days 13 Hours ago by: luser droog

Where in the interpreter is the decision made whether to read from the keyboard using KEY vs initiating a file read and pointing to a buffer? I have these words at the top level of the outer interpreter: WORD(accept, accept, enter,

Re: Can't install GForth on Android

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 4 Days 17 Hours ago by: le...@hotmail.se

I think the problem come with the latest sequrity update from Samsung, but GForth seems to be the only app that's got the problem.

Re: Hugh Aguilar - TESTRA - What really happened there?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 4 Days 17 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

Seems to be of interest. After 2 days, the 2800 views then are now at over 3000.

Ann: 8th ver 21.06 released

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 4 Days 19 Hours ago by: Ron AARON

* coroutine support * much better font handling (especially for "big fonts" like Chinese) * affine transforms for the GUI Full details here, as usual: https://8th-dev.com/forum/index.php/topic,2346.0.html

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 4 Days 22 Hours ago by: minf...@arcor.de

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/de/worterbuch/englisch/tongue-in-cheek To do that in Forth, the parser of a new word would have to evaluate the stack annotation as necessary part of the word definition. Next step would be a syntax tree

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 5 Days ago by: Paul Rubin

No the first arg is an arbitrary function (call it F), not necessarily a binary operator. APPLY takes the second arg (the list), and supplies its contents as individual args to F. So (apply #'foo '(1 2 3 4 5)) calls function foo with th

Re: Can't install GForth on Android

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 5 Days 4 Hours ago by: dxforth

Sometimes there's little choice. I recently purchased a new phone due to the state govt's largely compulsory QR code Covid sign-in app. The reason given for not supporting Android 5 was protecting the privacy of my data. I was informe

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 5 Days 5 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

All I see is a Lisp function, APPLY, which takes two fixed arguments: 1) a reference to a binary operator and 2) a single parameter representing a variable length list. APPLY iterates the operator over the length of the list, which it

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 5 Days 10 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

I don't understand about tongue and cheek? '(1 2 3) is not passed to + as a list, it is passed as args. (apply #'cons '(1 2)) is the same as (cons 1 2). Cons takes exactly two args and (apply #'cons (1 2 3)) would throw a error from co

Re: Can't install GForth on Android

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 5 Days 11 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

To look at this from a different angle: Is there no commercial product on the market, e.g. Forth Inc. , MPE VFX versions, or else to use here? And it seems that all of the VFXes are free to download and use for non-commercial use.

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 5 Days 13 Hours ago by: minf...@arcor.de

That must have been said with tongue in cheek. ;-) FWIW my Forth can do m[ 1 2 ; 5 7 ] minv or m[ 2 ] minv to invert a matrix. Anyhow it is not "arity-aware".

Re: Can't install GForth on Android

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 5 Days 14 Hours ago by: lehs

Hell no! This is it! Enough is enough! Und so weiter,,,

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 5 Days 15 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

Ok, how about Lisp: (apply #'+ '(1 2 3)) => returns 6 The '(1 2 3) is an arbitrary runtime list that gets passed to the + function as args. Python etc. can do similar things.

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 5 Days 18 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

Clarification: The particular version of ti_store() to be called in each statement is decided at compile time in the C++ program. The branching, which occurs at run-time, simply executes a function with a fixed parameter list. The la

Re: Can't install GForth on Android

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 5 Days 19 Hours ago by: dxforth

Buy a new tablet. It's the least you can do for society and the mega corporations. Even Gforth's developers will be grateful.

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 5 Days 20 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

To illustrate two fundamental differences between a stack-based language like Forth and languages like C and C++, let's consider the following examples: 1. C++ (with overloaded function) ------- void ti_store ( int Ncount, char* Name,

Re: Can't install GForth on Android

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 5 Days 20 Hours ago by: lehs

It seems like Galaxy Tab SM-T510 is out of date for GForth. Bye GForth!

Can't install GForth on Android

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 6 Days 11 Hours ago by: lehs

I have uninstalled GForth and can't reinstall it. When running it can't write to the pad. There is memory and permission is given. Others with the same problem?

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 6 Days 15 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

Certainly C's printf() parses the format string (first arg) at run-time. However, I expect that the number of parameters it pushes onto the machine stack (or in registers) is determined from the full argument list at compile time. Y

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 6 Days 16 Hours ago by: Anton Ertl

Overloading resolution by the compiler is impossible for stuff on the stack in Forth, because the compiler has no type or arity information. Doing similar things with run-time resolution is unidiomatic, although not unheard of. There is

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 6 Days 16 Hours ago by: Anton Ertl

Your TI! decides at run-time (based on the value on the top-of-stack at run-time) how many stack items to consume. C's printf() decides at run-time (based on the first parameter at run-time) how many parameters to access. C++'s overload

Re: Hugh Aguilar - TESTRA - What really happened there?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 6 Days 18 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

Just for the fun of it and as I had a bit of spare time and as well wanted to know if it is quick to do: I copied the whole thread here and converted it into a PDF. Generated some links to jump to the posters. Is it worth it? Well,

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 6 Days 20 Hours ago by: minf...@arcor.de

Make them a UNION.

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 6 Days 21 Hours ago by: Marcel Hendrix

printf() is using a mini interpreter and the ABI makes a conditional test in the caller unnecessary. I use printf in DLLs called from Forth. -marcel

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 6 Days 21 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

Agreed. But discrete functions don't always need a separate name.

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 6 Days 21 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

.... It is too rigid a stance to say don't use "word overloading" in Forth, although it requires additional run-time tests. It can certainly be mis-used. But in my particular application where I have to execute many calls to "ti!" to i

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 6 Days 21 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

No, I don't mean like printf(). The number of arguments is based on a "run-time" conditional test, not on something done at compile time. The example is more illustrative of function overloading in C++.

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 6 Days 21 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

.... It took me a moment to recognize this. It's a form of "polymorphism" or "function overloading" in Forth. In C++ one can declare and implement a function with several types of input parameter lists. The compiler creates separate pr

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 7 Days ago by: Paul Rubin

You mean like printf in C?

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 7 Days 1 Hour ago by: Anton Ertl

.... In that case, use two words: Better: : ti!1 ( c-addr u noperands op -- addr ) op[] tuck T->OpCount ! tuck T->NameCount ! tuck T->Name ! ; : ti! ( c-addr u noperands op -- ) ti!1 drop ; : extti! ( addr-nc c

Re: conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 7 Days 1 Hour ago by: dxforth

Variable inputs amounts to a wrapper for discrete functions.

conditional parameter passing

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 7 Days 3 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

Recently, I had occasion to write a Forth word which takes two different lengths of parameter lists. The word decides how many parameters to remove from the stack based on a conditional test of the parameter on top of the stack, either

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 7 Days 9 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

I had hoped that Peter Whoever would be there at the FIG Zoom event and give an update/ clarification - but it seems he preferred not to be present. No surprise, as even his origial name was FAKE

Re: Hugh Aguilar - TESTRA - What really happened there?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 8 Days 10 Hours ago by: Hugh Aguilar

This is not John Hart. This is Tom Hart impersonating his younger brother John. He is still pushing the lie about the interactive Forth compiler. He is not giving me credit for writing the assembler and all of the general-purpose assembl

Re: Hugh Aguilar - TESTRA - What really happened there?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 8 Days 17 Hours ago by: Brian Fox

I think it refers to all dairy producers.

Re: Hugh Aguilar - TESTRA - What really happened there?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 8 Days 20 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

Is the VHDL Tool accessible or available under NDA? When I saw it at the time, I thought - what a brilliant idea. I was involved with a customer in the past with something similar: Handel-C at ESL. C to Gates https://www.design-reuse.co

Re: Hugh Aguilar - TESTRA - What really happened there?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 8 Days 21 Hours ago by: dxforth

Blessed are the cheesemakers.

Re: Hugh Aguilar - TESTRA - What really happened there?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 8 Days 22 Hours ago by: John Hart

Hugh appears to be stuck in a time loop, like Phill Connors in Ground Hogs Day. I've been ignoring his emails because it didn't seem like responding would help and his reply confirms it. When he stopped by a few years ago, it was my impress

Re: Hugh Aguilar - TESTRA - What really happened there?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 8 Days 23 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

Thanks for posting this here. John This is basically what Tom had sent back in his email, but I did not want to talk about it here too much without him agreeing. As we know, for him everybody is a liar, probably including his wife, h

Re: hacking a trace output in forth 79?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 9 Days ago by: luser droog

[snip] I changed the newline to space and moved BYE closer to the bottom of the dictionary and now the output isn't so overwhelming. And possibly illuminating. Here's the trace of a complete session which asks for input and receives solel

Re: hacking a trace output in forth 79?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 9 Days ago by: luser droog

That was the hint I needed. Replacing NEXT was more straightforward than DOCOL, or at least it should have been. It turns out I discovered a bug in my emulator for the "SUB ax, immediate" instruction. It was subtracting the wrong way. Wi

Re: Hugh Aguilar - TESTRA - What really happened there?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 9 Days 1 Hour ago by: Anton Ertl

Don't worry. Anybody who has read a few of Hugh Aguilar's postings in the last decade is unlikely to take them at face value. - anton

Re: Hugh Aguilar - TESTRA - What really happened there?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 9 Days 3 Hours ago by: Hugh Aguilar

This is most likely Tom Hart trying to impersonate his younger brother John Hart. John Hart has an email at testra.com --- he wouldn't use a gmail address. It is absurd for Tom Hart to say that he should have fired me in 1995 because I n

Re: LMI Forths

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 9 Days 5 Hours ago by: Dennis Ruffer

There is no help for Hugh. Why even bother trying? DaR

Re: Hugh Aguilar - TESTRA - What really happened there?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 9 Days 10 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

Copy and paste from the other posts Well, I do not really think so - you are not fond of what you did then. This is not what I call fond of. There is just another twist as of yesterday. Hugh's post there was so bad - I sent it to T

Re: Hugh Aguilar - TESTRA - What really happened there?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 9 Days 10 Hours ago by: John Hart

clip What was said: "Hugh is very intelligent, very knowledgeable about Forth, but is not really a team player." I don't know if the first part is still true, but it appears the second part still is. If he could get over himself and s

Re: EXECUTE in various forms

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 9 Days 19 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

.... The code has been cleaned up and the single step debugger needs considerable work to be made useful beyond simple toy examples. However, SEE is quite usable now (example below). Each line of the SEE output corresponds to one execu

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 9 Days 22 Hours ago by: dxforth

'If symptoms of ego persist consult your healthcare professional.'

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 9 Days 22 Hours ago by: Ron AARON

Pithy, or pissy?

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 9 Days 22 Hours ago by: dxforth

Marcus Aurelius' Meditations

Re: LMI Forths

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 9 Days 23 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

Copy and paste from the other posts Well, I do not really think so - you are not fond of what you did then. This is not what I call fond. There is just another twist from yesterday. His post here was so bad - I sent it to Tom Hart at Te

Re: LMI Forths

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 10 Days ago by: Hugh Aguilar

.... Forth Inc. killed Forth with their ANS-Forth marketing gimmick. In the early 1990s, Forth was still considered to be a viable programming language, primarily due to UR/Forth, although there were other Forth systems capable of commerc

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 10 Days ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

Well, I do not really think so. This is not what I call fond. There is just another twist from yesterday. His post here was so bad - I sent it to Tom Hart at Testra for information, not expecting a feedback. I basically got it by return

Re: LMI Forths

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 10 Days 4 Hours ago by: dxforth

Carrion eater: One that consumes another's intellectual property to inflate himself.

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 10 Days 5 Hours ago by: dxforth

So you have fond memories of the good old days at Testra when you actually did something with Forth. "If you want a thing done well, do it yourself" - Napoleon Bonaparte

Re: LMI Forths

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 10 Days 21 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

Here you really show again how ugly your personality is. I just mentioned these names and the link https://www.linkedin.com/in/raygduncan/ as it might be able to help others who have an issue - I definitely do not have one. Dennis and

Re: LMI Forths

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 10 Days 22 Hours ago by: Hugh Aguilar

Bullshit! Back in the day, UR/Forth was the de-facto standard for Forth. Anybody who claimed to be a Forth programmer needed knowledge of URForth. My job interview at Testra mostly involved proving that I had carnal knowledge of UR/Forth.

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 11 Days 1 Hour ago by: Hugh Aguilar

When I worked at Testra I was given the job of doing something that had never been done before, which is write an assembler for a VLIW processor. It was my idea for the assembler to do the out-of-ordering of the instructions. John Hart ha

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 11 Days 4 Hours ago by: dxforth

Were I to do so, it would only indicate I needed them in the same way standards and their committees need users.

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 11 Days 12 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

It is really getting funny here. But why should I then not try to get in line, ( not serious but .... ) not the same caliber, But I generated the only Forth Bookshelf of print books to my knowledge and gave it the name, at least thi

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 11 Days 14 Hours ago by: Marcel Hendrix

[..] It is not an unknown concept. Not implying I am anywhere in the same category, but Brian May and Jaco Pastorius built their own instruments, Donald Knuth designed his own CPU architecture, Linus Torvalds created his own OS, van Gogh

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 11 Days 15 Hours ago by: dxforth

So when there is self-sufficiency, there is nothing anyone can offer you and nobody to obey. Welcome to Forth.

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 11 Days 17 Hours ago by: Brian Fox

You made me laugh out loud Hans. Well done.

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 11 Days 17 Hours ago by: Marcel Hendrix

[..] My own tools have been honed for over 30 years and do exactly what I want. As compilers go VFX might be better, but I would never be able to write a SPICE compatibe simulation engine in it that is 20x faster than LTspice. Learning

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 11 Days 17 Hours ago by: Ilya Tarasov

It seems that you have megalomania, thinking that only the "official" Forth can be written with high quality.

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 11 Days 17 Hours ago by: dxforth

Children have neither the maturity nor experience to question what they've been taught. Presumably you now have money and are able to purchase a ready-made Forth compiler. Have you - and if not, why?

Re: LMI Forths

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 11 Days 18 Hours ago by: Hugh Aguilar

I haven't forgotten about how you were mocking me by using the word 'disambiguifier' for some kindergarten-level code that you wrote. Don't expect me to ever reply to you except to remind you that you are on my twit list forever because

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 11 Days 19 Hours ago by: Marcel Hendrix

[..] We don't see that working in child education. I don't believe it's so much 'obeying'. When in high-school and at the university, lack of money was my main DIY motivator for audio and computers (i.e. Forth). -marcel

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 11 Days 22 Hours ago by: dxforth

Worse still, they bring these strange ideas to Forth! Only when obeying becomes hard is progress possible.

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 11 Days 23 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

Brilliant comment - Thank You.

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 12 Days 4 Hours ago by: Chuck Jackson

The horror!

Re: A new RCA1802 computer

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 12 Days 11 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

Definitely reminds me to dig out my 1802 / 1804 / 1805 / 1806 stored away and try to do a minimum setup. An UT4 monito of 512 bytes would be an option to communicate serially, or the small ones just using toggle switches.

Re: A new RCA1802 computer

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 12 Days 12 Hours ago by: Andrew McKewan

My first job had a product using an 1802 (then 1806) for a hand-held data-collection terminal. When I left 3 years later it was running Forth (of course). It is such a beautifully designed processor and very natural for a Forth implementa

Re: Free Forth Books

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 12 Days 17 Hours ago by: Andrew McKewan

Since this isn't the best forum for discussing details, please email me with your interest, andrew dot mckewan at gmail.

Re: EXECUTE in various forms

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 12 Days 18 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

.... Following my original post, I have added a preliminary SEE facility and Single-Step Debugger, in Forth source, to the kForth-64 (0.2.x) and kForth-32 (2.x) packages. A good bit of common code is needed for both SEE and single step

Re: Asynchronous Logic , was GreenArrays Softsim, ga4 version, does

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 12 Days 20 Hours ago by: Rick C

Whatever the clocking mechanism is, it is internal to the F18A. That's my point. No clock is supplied.

Re: LMI Forths

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 12 Days 22 Hours ago by: dxforth

Perhaps so but what's in it for them? Same for former commercial customers of LMI. At this point of time it's only of interest to hobbyists and from their perspective it's been abandoned for 25 years. As for Ray, he posted the following

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 12 Days 22 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

As Paul Bennett has threatened to delete the whole thread in the Forth facebook group if there are any more truths posted about Peter Forth there, I better post it here - a safer place in this case: This is how it started with a clip fr

Re: LMI Forths

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 13 Days ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

https://www.linkedin.com/in/raygduncan/ He seems to do completely different things now. I would be surprised if he has not stated somewhere what should happen to his LMI products.. Dennis Ruffer and Leon Wagner are connections, so they

Re: LMI Forths

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 13 Days 4 Hours ago by: dxforth

LMI no longer exists. Who's policing the NDA? If anyone owns LMI's IP and wants to enforce it they should make themselves known. That God left it to self-appointed vigilantes to make himself known was also a mistake :)

Re: LMI Forths

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 13 Days 4 Hours ago by: Hugh Aguilar

All of LMI's products are proprietary. They can not be "given out." The only exception is found here: http://www.forth.org/compilers.html We have LMI WinForth v1.01 that appears to be a free version of UR/Forth. This only worked on some

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 13 Days 4 Hours ago by: dxforth

Many years ago an engineer wandered across to where I was working. After a short while he remarked that he would have liked to be doing that, but it didn't pay enough. By the world's measure he was the success. I OTOH found myself in a

Re: Asynchronous Logic , was GreenArrays Softsim, ga4 version, does it exist?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 13 Days 11 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

I thought each F18A was clocked by a ring oscillator, but maybe I don't understand what that is actually for.

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 13 Days 14 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

It was interesting to find some more context on the Forth facebook group A quick copy from there https://www.facebook.com/groups/PROGRAMMINGFORTH/?multi_permalinks=2710802455886438&notif_id=1626553257133878&notif_t=feedback_reaction_gen

Re: Free Forth Books

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 13 Days 15 Hours ago by: Chuck Jackson

Hi Andrew I am interested in the Dr. Dobbs Forth Tool Book Vol 2. What would it take to have it mailed to Texas? Thanks Chuck

Re: Asynchronous Logic , was GreenArrays Softsim, ga4 version, does

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 13 Days 18 Hours ago by: Rick C

One of the reasons why I'm not so interested in asynchronous logic is because there are few applications where the speed advantage can be utilized. While the chips are asynchronous at the logic level, there are few applications that are

Re: Asynchronous Logic , was GreenArrays Softsim, ga4 version, does

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 13 Days 21 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

For some clarification, this article of Steve Furber might help. https://apt.cs.manchester.ac.uk/ftp/pub/apt/www/async/async_desc.html NCL is one implementation of asynchronous logic , possible to implement on any FPGA. Faster than cloc

Re: Free Forth Books

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 13 Days 21 Hours ago by: Andrew McKewan

Here's the list: Forth Dimensions, vol 1-6 bound sets, vol 7-20 magazines FORML conference proceedings 1980-1990, 92, 93 Rochester conference proceedings 1981, 82, 84, 86, 88-90 JFAR vol 5 #1,2 Dr. Dobbs Forth Tool Book Vol 2 Dr. Dobbs F

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 13 Days 22 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

Correct. It was fun to do my Forth Bookshelf. And it is an achievement I am proud of and which has started about 10 years ago and will last. The list of comparable publishers about Forth is minimal ... And it is always the customer's

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 14 Days ago by: Marcel Hendrix

[..] A genuinely interesting website! I especially enjoyed the formula for drawing an elephant. There are surprising tidbits on all the pages. I really liked the Klein bottle joke. -marcel

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 14 Days 3 Hours ago by: dxforth

True for content but not the packaging - which AFAIK is all that J. Pintaske is claiming. That his efforts have resulted in a mixed response from forthers was always the risk. It seemed strange to me to see vendors still trying to sell

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 14 Days 3 Hours ago by: mariano vandai gasis

What S.Pelc comments about IP is absolute nonsense, different people from a corporation University, or having a VPN account as is my case will share **the same common public IP** --but not the private IP --(which Pelc is not offering ).

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 14 Days 4 Hours ago by: dxforth

Why is it always people? Wherever humans have organized into 'community' there has evolved leadership and a police force to maintain its continuity. What individual hasn't been sacrificed for the so-called 'common good'. For its survival

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 14 Days 5 Hours ago by: Rick C

If it would only snow, I would not be so hot in Puerto Rico. Why not wish for a few million dollars? Juergen is every bit as crazy as Peter whack job and I think both of us are crazy for even commenting on any of this. The IP address

Re: Is the FORTH language under the control of Mr Peter FORTH?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 14 Days 5 Hours ago by: Rick C

No, you can't be censored here no matter what. Welcome to anarchy!! The SVFIG group knows about him as well and don't let him anywhere near the censorship controls. In fact, I don't think he shows up there much. We know about Peter F

Re: Asynchronous Logic , was GreenArrays Softsim, ga4 version, does it exist?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 14 Days 5 Hours ago by: Rick C

Please don't read into my statement anything about how the F18A is designed.. I don't really know other than that it has variable timing depending on the data path used and the various factors that impact an asynchronous circuit (process

Re: Asynchronous Logic , was GreenArrays Softsim, ga4 version, does it exist?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 14 Days 5 Hours ago by: Rick C

No clock is supplied at all to an F18A. What exactly is the difference between asynchronous logic and synchronous logic? I think I had this discussion with someone here who brought up many very odd styles of logic that are used for as

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 14 Days 9 Hours ago by: Stephen Pelc

Please can you provide q reference to the year and number. A page number would be great! Stephen

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 14 Days 11 Hours ago by: Marc Petremann

Hello, In "Vierte Dimension": .....Peter Minuth alias Peter Forth......

Re: Free Forth Books

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 14 Days 11 Hours ago by: Chuck Jackson

Hello again, Andrew. I would also be interested in UR/FORTH manuals and/or tutorials, if you have those. Thanks Chuck

Is the FORTH language under the control of Mr Peter FORTH?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 14 Days 14 Hours ago by: Marc Petremann

Hello, My name is Marc PETREMANN I started programming in the FORTH language in 1983. I am the author of several books on the FORTH language: - Introduction to ZX-Forth - Tours of FORTH - Forth for CP / M - TURBO-Forth Learning Manua

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 14 Days 14 Hours ago by: Marc Petremann

Hello, I was part of the FB FORTH2020 group Overnight, without any explanation, I was excluded from this group. Peter FORTH does not respond to any of my messages. In fact, I think the origin of this eviction comes from when on my ARDUIN

Re: Free Forth Books

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 14 Days 16 Hours ago by: Derick Chou

Hello Andrew: I am currently on my journey learning Forth and come visiting this group. I'm currently living in Taiwan but my sister is at Vancouver, BC. It would be great if you can send me one copy each book to my sister. I'd be happy

Re: Free Forth Books

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 14 Days 17 Hours ago by: Chuck Jackson

Hi I would be interested in Dr. Dobb's and other volumes of the MVP forth series, if you have them. Besides Brodie's books, it would be nice to see a list of the other books. Thanks

Re: Free Forth Books

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 14 Days 18 Hours ago by: Jon Nicoll

Hi Andrew For sentimental reasons, mainly, I am after a copy of Glen Haydon's "All about Forth". I am in the UK but would probably be happy to pay postage for that ;-). I appreciate it's a long shot but you never know... Best Regards,

Free Forth Books

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 14 Days 19 Hours ago by: Andrew McKewan

I have two boxes of Forth books that i have not opened in 20 years. They include Forth Dimensions, FORML, Dr. Dobbs, Brodie and others. I can take an inventory if requested. Is anyone interested in taking these before I send them to recycl

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 14 Days 22 Hours ago by: Stephen Pelc

Your message was posted from the same IP address as Egbert's (177.143.80.253) and that address is in Brazil according to whois 177.143.80.253 Peter Forth's messages come from the same ISP in Brazil. This amateur spoofing is easy to sp

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 14 Days 22 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

It is so lovely, to see how this troll Peter Forth shows himself that he fakes personlaities or is he just shizophrenic with multiple personalities? 10 or 20 of them he has already used here over the years. Multitasking at a higher leve

LMI Forths

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 15 Days 6 Hours ago by: Chuck Jackson

Hi all, After LOTS of google-ating for a few days, I've found that at LEAST some of LMI's products could be "given out". I can't find much that concretely says which ones "are free" and I absolutely can't find any downloads of such produc

Re: Asynchronous Logic , was GreenArrays Softsim, ga4 version, does

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 15 Days 12 Hours ago by: Jan Coombs

Agreed, so did I but Bernd Linsel has now filled in much more of the details. I was replying to Rick, who (I think) stated: "The Green Arrays F18A CPUs are designed at the gate level with mechanisms that are probably not supported i

Re: Asynchronous Logic , was GreenArrays Softsim, ga4 version, does

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 15 Days 12 Hours ago by: Jan Coombs

Perhaps I was expecting too much, or being too picky? Economic memory devices would need "delay line" timing, but I expected that the ALU and it's output mux would use self-timed logic gates to qualify as fully asynchronous. Still

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 15 Days 12 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

The changes as of tonight and number 6 revoved from the list It will be interesting to see if this conversation here has an influence, basically even bad advertising works: There is a list on amazon, showing the actual top 100 in the C

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 15 Days 14 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

FUCKING FART PETER FICKER HAS SWAPPED IDENTITIES WITHIN A DAY FORTH KILLER AND IDENTITY THIEF This is the difference between here and the link I posted regarding Hackaday. There I posted an answer regarding the bullshit and lies he had

Re: Asynchronous Logic , was GreenArrays Softsim, ga4 version, does

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 15 Days 14 Hours ago by: HALx Kieler

Jan, thanks for comprehending what I was looking for, your third link had the download for the other version of arrayForth who's simulator is the 4 version I was looking for. Thank you.

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 15 Days 15 Hours ago by: mariano vandai gasis

Sorry I can't see any Peter Forth in the comments, only this disgusting troll J.Pintaske defaming people or insulting the intelligence of all participants. Now he is defaming the forth2020 group, where I am member since since >6 months

Re: Asynchronous Logic , was GreenArrays Softsim, ga4 version, does

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 15 Days 17 Hours ago by: Bernd Linsel

The need to insert nop instructions before "+" and "+*" arises from the fact that the F18A's ALU always generates all possible results from S and T in parallel (altering CF dependent on P9) whenever the previous instruction is finished

Re: Asynchronous Logic , was GreenArrays Softsim, ga4 version, does it exist?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 15 Days 18 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

I thought the F18A is a normal synchronous processor, and that the GA144 is asynchronous in the sense that the separate F18A's on it are indepdendently clocked.

Re: Asynchronous Logic , was GreenArrays Softsim, ga4 version, does it exist?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 15 Days 18 Hours ago by: Rick C

Sorry, not sure what your point is? The term synchronous in logic design has nothing to do with the logic between registers. That is not a valid argument. The fact that some logic paths are not included in the asynchronous timing co

Asynchronous Logic , was GreenArrays Softsim, ga4 version, does it

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 15 Days 19 Hours ago by: Jan Coombs

We accept that synchronous logic is synchronous at boundaries formed by latches. If an FPGA design requires more than one lookup table between latches then timing at the intermediate nodes is bounded, but not synchronous. Similarly

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 15 Days 20 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

Will do, but in the context here I wanted it as original for the explanation, and as described in the posts. Actually, now, as it is all out, I will just change it to unpublished in the future, or delete it completely And our Identity

Re: GreenArrays Softsim, ga4 version, does it exist?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 15 Days 20 Hours ago by: Jan Coombs

Search for "softsim" in this page: https://bitlog.it/20141224_getting_started_with_the_ga144_and_arrayforth.html More instructions here: http://www.greenarraychips.com/home/documents/greg/cf-intro.htm http://www.greenarraychips.c

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 15 Days 20 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

If you have withdrawn something from publication, you should mark it in the list as being withdrawn, to avoid confusion.

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 15 Days 21 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

It will be interesting for me to see if this conversation here has an influence, basically even bad advertising works: There is a list on amazon, showing the actual top 100 in the Compiler Design section, updated every couple of hours a

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 15 Days 22 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

I am sure that many people here do not know/understand what all of this is about. I did consultancy work for MPE Stephen Pelc for about 5 years until about 2 years ago My function there was Sales and Marketing Manager During this time i

Re: Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 15 Days 23 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

Our local idiot on identity theft again. This time claiming to be Professor Dr. PETER FORTH, THE DICTATOR OF FORTH2020 raises his extremely ugly head again. Obviously too scared to show his real name, and the person he uses instea

Re: GreenArrays Softsim, ga4 version, does it exist?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 16 Days ago by: Rick C

Error prone??? Why would it be error prone? If you aren't trying to emulate detailed timing, it would be a very simple design indeed. I've forgotten much of what I know about the F18A, but it is far from a complex processor. I could w

Re: GreenArrays Softsim, ga4 version, does it exist?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 16 Days ago by: Rick C

The Green Arrays F18A CPUs are designed at the gate level with mechanisms that are probably not supported in FPGAs. I've never seen any indication of how the asynchronous logic works at the gate level. FPGAs do not actually use logic ga

Re: GreenArrays Softsim, ga4 version, does it exist?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 16 Days 6 Hours ago by: Dennis Ruffer

You really cannot work on a 4 node model on a 144 node chip. All the nodes have unique features, especially, the edge nodes. So, there is no "mode" that could adjust the features on nodes. They are hardwired to do what they do. DaR

Re: GreenArrays Softsim, ga4 version, does it exist?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 16 Days 6 Hours ago by: Dennis Ruffer

We started working on the F18 in a FPGA model, but it was extremely slow and error prone. DaR

Steven Pelc explains : Juergen Pintaske is a fraud and a book theft

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 16 Days 10 Hours ago by: Egbert Kampinsky

All perfectly explained , nothing else to add. https://groups.google.com/g/comp.lang.forth/c/8Aj4BpLs7Cw (**read Steven Pelc and Marcel Hendrix complaints) Juergen Pintaske was fired for being a fraud, and after that, he stole the Book o

Re: GreenArrays Softsim, ga4 version, does it exist?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 16 Days 14 Hours ago by: HALx Kieler

No I'm not looking for an actual chip, I'm trying to find the softsim mode that only simulated 4 of the F18's, because the default softsim inside of ColorForth is the 144 version, and I think I'd have an easier time exploring the functional

Re: GreenArrays Softsim, ga4 version, does it exist?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 16 Days 17 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

I just wonder if a solution in FPGA might be an option. Has anybody here tried this one? http://mindworks.shoutwiki.com/wiki/Forth_Computing_on_FPGA

Re: windows in DXFORTH

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 17 Days 3 Hours ago by: Chuck Jackson

Thanks! I'm just fooling around with trying to make some data entry screens as my learning project to learn Forth(s) while going through a bunch of old Forth books, mostly Forth79.

Re: windows in DXFORTH

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 17 Days 3 Hours ago by: Chuck Jackson

On Wednesday, July 14, 2021 at 10:45:31 PM UTC-5, dxforth wrote:

Re: windows in DXFORTH

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 17 Days 3 Hours ago by: dxforth

DX-Forth only provides the raw mechanism for limiting console output to a particular section of the screen as defined by you. A full-blown windows system would need to built on top. IIRC folks were experimenting with that back in the da

Re: windows in DXFORTH

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 17 Days 3 Hours ago by: Chuck Jackson

Nope, I guess not. I think I'm way off on what use I would be able to make from using those 2 words.

Re: windows in DXFORTH

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 17 Days 3 Hours ago by: Chuck Jackson

So COLD could be used to destroy the "pop up" window, right? Thus you could only ever have the full screen AND one "pop up" window at any time.

Re: GreenArrays Softsim, ga4 version, does it exist?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 17 Days 4 Hours ago by: Dennis Ruffer

As far as I know, they were never able to successfully reproduce the chip using traditional methods. So, you have to use Okad to produce them and the design files have never been released. You have to convince GreenArrays to make whatever

Re: windows in DXFORTH

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 17 Days 4 Hours ago by: Chuck Jackson

Does it have the ability to pop open a window and then close/destroy the window? And yes, I am referring to the PC version.

Re: windows in DXFORTH

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 17 Days 4 Hours ago by: dxforth

If you mean DX-Forth for DOS, it has two words: GET-WINDOW ( -- x1 y1 x2 y2 ) SET-WINDOW ( x1 y1 x2 y2 -- ) where x1 y1 and x2 y2 are the upper left and bottom right text-mode coordinates respectively. GET-WINDOW returns the current w

Re: windows in DXFORTH

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 17 Days 6 Hours ago by: Chuck Jackson

.....WINDOWS words WORK? Left out the word "work".

windows in DXFORTH

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 17 Days 7 Hours ago by: Chuck Jackson

Hi all, Does anyone have a simple DXFORTH program that has examples of how its WINDOWS words?

Re: EXECUTE in various forms

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 17 Days 7 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

.... .... Here are the references I forgot to include in my previous message: 1. https://github.com/mynenik/kForth-32/blob/master/forth-src/asm-x86.4th 2. https://github.com/mynenik/kForth-32/blob/master/forth-src/fcalls-x86.4th 3. h

Re: EXECUTE in various forms

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 17 Days 7 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

For a system which compiles definitions to native code only, adding a parallel ITC compiler would be analogous to providing the extra information needed by a debugger in order to step through the native code at each primitive word. EXE

Re: EXECUTE in various forms

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 17 Days 7 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

In kForth, the word CALL (the equivalent of EXECUTE-NC) is used to define CODE (see asm-x86.4th). CODE words are then defined to provide a calling interface for functions taking different number of arguments (see fcalls-x86.4th [2]). F

Re: EXECUTE in various forms

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 17 Days 8 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

Within the Forth-2012 standard, there is no simple way to access the nt of a word, from which one can use NAME>INTERPRET to obtain the xt for its execution semantics. One can obtain the nt of a word through a procedure using TRAVERSE-

Re: EXECUTE in various forms

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 17 Days 14 Hours ago by: Anton Ertl

Gforth only has EXECUTE. fig-Forth only has EXECUTE. I don't see any particular usefulness in EXECUTE-ITC and EXECUTE-NC; what can they do that EXECUTE cannot? - anton

Re: EXECUTE in various forms

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 17 Days 15 Hours ago by: Ruvim

[...] It's unclear how EXECUTE-NC can help to implement various calling conventions [1] except the cases when the data stack is the same as the cpu's stack and all the arguments are passed via the stack only. [1] see-also: https://en.w

Re: EXECUTE in various forms

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 17 Days 17 Hours ago by: Jim Peterson

It's arguable that a single, EXECUTE, word could suffice, so long as an xt was not really an address to execute but rather a pointer to a data structure. The structure could contain not only an execution address but also the type of addr

Re: EXECUTE in various forms

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 17 Days 18 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

It's worthwhile to point out that such an approach does not assume standardized tokens for ITC implementations -- that's an internal detail of the Forth system. KM

Re: EXECUTE in various forms

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 17 Days 18 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

The word EXECUTE-NC ( currently named CALL in kForth ) is useful in implementing both the Forth-assembler interface and the Forth-foreign function interface. Yes, that's true -- there are more support words needed. My implicit assum

Re: EXECUTE in various forms

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 17 Days 23 Hours ago by: Ruvim

A system with STC or native code usually have only one variant of EXECUTE (the standard one). Other variants can be in the frame of FFI (foreign function interface). I use the following words \ cdecl - C calling convention with 1

GreenArrays Softsim, ga4 version, does it exist?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 18 Days 4 Hours ago by: HALx Kieler

http://www.greenarraychips.com/home/documents/greg/cf-softsim.htm So this document mentions a version of ColorForth's simulator that only has 4 F18 computers rather than the slightly overwhelming 144. But for the life of me I can't figure

EXECUTE in various forms

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 18 Days 18 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

The xt is an abstracted reference to the execution semantics of Forth code which can be performed by EXECUTE. The execution semantics may be referenced and represented internally in various ways. For example, the xt could be the starting

Re: Poll: equivalence for postpone expression

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 19 Days 14 Hours ago by: Ruvim

(1) Yes, it is possible too. Hence you need to compare xt-comp with xt of "COMPILE,", instead of zero. Anyway, this variation doesn't affect my reasoning. The problem I refer to is the same for any system implementation that meet

Re: A bit of posting in other places and people show interest in

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 19 Days 15 Hours ago by: dxforth

Has Mickey Mouse (tm) fallen out of favour? There's always a new generation to profit from.

Re: A bit of posting in other places and people show interest in Forth

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 19 Days 15 Hours ago by: Marcel Hendrix

[..] Felix has worked for over 14 years already without drawing attention. He was an icon in my youth, does anybody remember him nowadays? -marcel

Re: Poll: equivalence for postpone expression

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 19 Days 17 Hours ago by: P Falth

Not necessarily. In my system a word with default CS has xt-comp=COMPILE, Yes this works in my system Yes this is true for IF, ELSE etc in my system As I read the standard there are no restrictions on what NAME>COMPILE can return ex

Re: Poll: equivalence for postpone expression

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 19 Days 18 Hours ago by: Ruvim

First of all, a system is not obligated to determine whether a word is immediate (in the standard notion) or not. It's enough to determine whether a word is ordinary or not [1]. Secondly, I don't see any technical problem with that. V

Re: A bit of posting in other places and people show interest in

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 19 Days 21 Hours ago by: dxforth

When Dreamworks lawyers come after Felix The Cat (tm) you can point them to the publisher :)

Re: A bit of posting in other places and people show interest in Forth

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 20 Days 10 Hours ago by: Hugh Aguilar

Juergen Pintaske is such a liar! lol Here we have Ilya obviously not supporting Juergen, but instead laughing about how this fight between Juergen Pintaske and Stephen Pelc becomes public similar to a Mortal Kombat fantasy fight in front

Re: A bit of posting in other places and people show interest in Forth

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 20 Days 15 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

Just as a proof if advertising and product placement works. Had a look just now, and Chucks Book that had been handed over to him during Euroforth, is suddenly in 3rd place https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Books-Compiler-Design/zgbs/

Re: A bit of posting in other places and people show interest in Forth

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 20 Days 16 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

Any advertising - even a bad one - might work. Not necessarily for Forth, but for people to find books they might want to read So I better put the link here again what we are talking about https://www.amazon.co.uk/Juergen-Pintaske/e/B0

Re: A bit of posting in other places and people show interest in Forth

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 20 Days 16 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

You are completely right Ilya. Rather attack than knowing what they are talking about.

Re: A bit of posting in other places and people show interest in Forth

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 20 Days 16 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

I forgot to mention, that Forth INC. signed off the complete eBook before it was published. I do not know how you go about your business, are you insinuating copyright violation? I obey the copyright laws as discused here for many years.

Re: A bit of posting in other places and people show interest in Forth

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 20 Days 16 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

As agreed with Forth INC. Leon Wagner many years ago before I published the eBook on amazon. At the time they did not want to have it available as Print Book - so it is eBook only. The same agreement exists for the PDF for download as

Re: A bit of posting in other places and people show interest in Forth

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 20 Days 16 Hours ago by: Ilya Tarasov

Yay! Where is my popcorn? :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7XvA9gOCxQ

Re: A bit of posting in other places and people show interest in Forth

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 20 Days 16 Hours ago by: Marcel Hendrix

To my amazement, the bookshelf also contains significant portions of 'Starting Forth' as published on http://home.iae.nl/users/mhx/sf.html . The only party that is allowed to do that is FORTH Inc., with which I have an agreement (publishe

Re: A bit of posting in other places and people show interest in Forth

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 20 Days 17 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

And just to make it clear again: This is a list of books I published. This has not changed and will not change. Oh - actually it will when I add more. It nowhere states that they are all available to buy. And NUMBER 6 DEFINITELY IS NOT. A

Re: A bit of posting in other places and people show interest in Forth

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 20 Days 17 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

MPE at the time had refused to balance my work to get it into publication, I had even offered to hand it over if we find an agreement and it would still be available under MPE, and all of the revenue going to MPE. MPE asked for revenue,

Re: A bit of posting in other places and people show interest in Forth

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 20 Days 18 Hours ago by: Stephen Pelc

I withdrew my permission for this book to appear in your bookshelf some while ago as you refuse to share any revenue. I wrote the book, you get the money. Somehow you equate your cost for formatting the book to my cost for writing it. T

Re: A new RCA1802 computer

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 20 Days 19 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

6 years later, and we have - the 1802 in FPGA, this version done by Steve Teal, - he adapted the FIG-Forth to run on his implementation -----https://wiki.forth-ev.de/doku.php/projects:fig-forth-1802-fpga:start - and I converted this into

Re: A bit of posting in other places and people show interest in Forth

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 21 Days ago by: luser droog

"Freedom?" "Freedom is a Yang worship word. You will not speak it!" :)

Re: A bit of posting in other places and people show interest in

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 21 Days 4 Hours ago by: dxforth

Complete with old chestnuts about what's wrong with Forth :) https://hackaday.com/2021/07/08/diy-forth-on-arduino/#comment-6363039 Browsing links to earlier articles I notice our tireless c.l.f. colleagues doing a fine job informing wha

Re: A bit of posting in other places and people show interest in Forth

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 21 Days 19 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

Here a quick overview of the Forth Bookshelf The current Forth Bookshelf can be found at https://www.amazon.co.uk/Juergen-Pintaske/e/B00N8HVEZM Mostly Forth, but other books there as well that I have published. Mostly available as eBo

Re: Poll: equivalence for postpone expression

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 21 Days 19 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

Yes. If an IMMEDIATE word does not have ES = CS, how would dual-xt systems determine the immediacy of a word? Would that not make dual-xt systems inconsistent with the standard? Krishna

A bit of posting in other places and people show interest in Forth

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 21 Days 21 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

Saw the post of the DIY Forth here https://hackaday.com/2021/07/08/diy-forth-on-arduino/?fbclid=IwAR2SCdWq1i8WfRyFdVb1J_GQi7uqlFDWJaQmrm4gVgmQtoBEZSL6aR9vkZ0 Posted a few links regarding Forth information. Then checked if it has any result

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 21 Days 22 Hours ago by: Me Unknown

Check this one: https://github.com/samueltardieu/aforth

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 23 Days 6 Hours ago by: Hugh Aguilar

Well, I solved the out-of-ordering of the instructions for the MiniForth on the first attempt. I had a solution that worked, anyway. Steve Brault complained that in some cases my assembler's solution was not optimal. It was possible to ha

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 23 Days 13 Hours ago by: Fourthy Forth

Maybe somebody not know how to design a forth procese. Regular material, without deviation, always have statistically same action of action and interference. Not E=mc2, but tell a lot..

Re: hacking a trace output in forth 79?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 23 Days 16 Hours ago by: Doug Hoffman

Are you thinking about something like the following? Here's an example output from a recent thread on a buggy TYPE. First test has 2 letters in the string, second test has 0. traceon \ start trace when TYPE starts : type ( a u -- ) dup

Re: hacking a trace output in forth 79?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 23 Days 23 Hours ago by: dxforth

Never looked closely at it myself as I went straight from FIG to 83. However commentary about Forth-79 suggested it was problematic. That may be because forth standards have always been an amalgam of the systems of the day. Depends on

Re: hacking a trace output in forth 79?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 24 Days ago by: luser droog

That's been my habit in investigating languages. Generally, the earliest version is smaller and simpler to understand. One big exception I've found is MS-DOS, where version 2.0 is immensely simpler than all the 1.0 stuff it replaces. Wh

Re: hacking a trace output in forth 79?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 24 Days ago by: dxforth

Why Forth-79 which was generally considered broken?

Re: hacking a trace output in forth 79?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 24 Days 1 Hour ago by: luser droog

Thanks. You're almost certainly right. Trouble is, I've written myself into a corner (or possibly many corners) with this project. It began as a codegolf exercise in PostScript, just an emulator for a restricted subset of 8086 instructio

Re: Performing compilation semantics, rethinking (was: RFI Q99-027)

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 24 Days 14 Hours ago by: Ruvim

[...] Yes, but I didn't receive your answer to my latest arguments in that thread, see at: news:qi6con$1bdk$1@gioia.aioe.org on 2019-08-04 - Subject: Re: Semantics rethinking - The raw message: https://groups.google.com/forum/message/r

Re: Poll: equivalence for postpone expression

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 24 Days 14 Hours ago by: Ruvim

In the phrase "[ compile-foo ]" in compilation state, the interpretation semantics for "compile-foo" are performed, since "[" enters interpretation state. So in this context it doesn't matter whether "compile-foo" is immediate or not,

Re: hacking a trace output in forth 79?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 25 Days 13 Hours ago by: Rick C

I'd chalk this up to the X/Y problem. You are asking question X and I'm going to give you the answer to the question Y because I think it is more useful to you. Even though a Forth interpreter is not a large piece of code, it is big e

Re: hacking a trace output in forth 79?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 25 Days 17 Hours ago by: S Jack

; Forth Interest Group 8086 FORTH ; Version 1.0 ; Original implementation by Thomas Newman ; Modified by Joe Smith ; NEXT with code to trace FORTH word execution TNEXT: PUSHF ;save executing

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 25 Days 22 Hours ago by: Ilya Tarasov

There are a lot of things which cannot be done from a first attempt. Yes, out-of-order is not an easy thing, and certainly require some exercices to get at least experience. It's funny many hobbyists expect that any problem will be solve

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 25 Days 22 Hours ago by: Ilya Tarasov

It works up to 250 or 180 nm, maybe. Just like breadboard and wires can be used for 8 MHz MCU in a DIP package. High-frequency effects will add problems for 100 MHz clock, and will prevent normal working of DDR3 memory - multilayer PCB

Re: hacking a trace output in forth 79?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 25 Days 23 Hours ago by: dxforth

From a precursor to 8080 DX-Forth: https://pastebin.com/uAyE6iFA Should be easy to convert the trace code to 8086. If NEXT is inline you'll only be able to trace DOCOL and other datatypes you nominate.

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 25 Days 23 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

Just for people who might have the time and look for some background: One extreme - all of the aspects involved in ASICs and the complexity: https://anysilicon.com/ And the other extreme, probably the closest there is to Chuck's way at th

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 26 Days ago by: Paul Rubin

Design rules in the "old days" were pretty simple: X unit line width, Y units between lines, Z extra space around any via. There may have been one or two other parameters but DRC was pretty simple. There was a timing simulator that work

Re: hacking a trace output in forth 79?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 26 Days 2 Hours ago by: dxforth

Fig-Forth listings (6502 at least) included such a patch. I assume that's what you're referring to. DOCOL LDA IP+1 PHA LDA IP PHA JSR TCOLON ; mark the start of a traced : def.

hacking a trace output in forth 79?

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 26 Days 4 Hours ago by: luser droog

I've added some DOS file functions to my 8086 emulator and it seems that somehow i've broken my forth interpreter. I'm trying to dig through the trace of machine operators and register values armed with my list of dictionary addresses, but

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 26 Days 12 Hours ago by: Ilya Tarasov

I didnt write EDA tools. Even using tools is a kind of art. Industry leading tools like Cadence or Synopsis are a large set of utilities with complex design flow. There is no 'pushbutton flow'. Looks like a single screw for building a

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 26 Days 17 Hours ago by: Rick C

You can do that, but with devices that are not full custom. There are degrees of customization in ASICs. Well, there used to be gate arrays which are like metal layer programmed FPGAs. But I seem to recall they have largely been squeez

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 26 Days 17 Hours ago by: dxforth

By "variable-based" I mean a language designed to use local variables from the outset - from parameter passing to internal processing. It's still Forth because nothing has fundamentally changed. The stack and its operators are still th

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 26 Days 20 Hours ago by: Krishna Myneni

I'm not sure what you mean by "variable-based language"? Don't you simply mean, "Any form of local variable built on top of a stack-based language represents additional overhead relative to what occurs when passing arguments via a data

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 26 Days 23 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

It was clear you would raise your ugly head as I had said in the first lines. But that you would post more disgusting stuff than usual was a surprise - and as usual not related to the theme of the post.

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days ago by: S Jack

Works for me: $0..$9 values &0..&9 addresses (of the values) $X0..$X9 xt's that get compiled Parameter pointer can be set in memory or anyplace on either stack. Old parameter pointer saved and restored from return stack allow

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 1 Hour ago by: Paul Rubin

Ok, that's interesting to hear, I was under the impression that you write some HDL and the EDA and the fab house take care of (most of the rest). I think this specific issue is not too bad and some tools use SAT solvers for routing. Th

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 2 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

You mean using TO? Of course nothing requires you to do that, and it's reasonable to say that it's poor style. I think the current version of ANS locals are like VALUEs which you write using TO, but you read by just using their names.

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 5 Hours ago by: dxforth

Any form of local variable built on top of a stack-based language represents additional overhead relative to what occurs in a variable- based language. That one may be able optimize some of the former away isn't the point. It's inapprop

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 6 Hours ago by: Hugh Aguilar

Good analogy, Ilya! I have found, when trying to discuss MFX and the out-of-ordering of the instructions, that people will say this is easy, and they read a magazine article about it, etc.. Maybe easily done by Chuck Norris! lol In pra

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 7 Hours ago by: dxforth

Never gave the cartoon much thought. All I'm seeing in it is an introduction to ROT to the frustration of the SWAP dragon. Brodie's cartoons are charming but not conspiratorial.

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 9 Hours ago by: Ilya Tarasov

- likes - subscriptions - automatic acceptance of every news about Forth Following things are closer to support: - experimental/modeling verifications - technical questions - discussions - clarifying counterexamples to avoid negative effe

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 10 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

You are saying that the examples I've looked at are too few to generalize from, even though some were written by renowned Forthers. Maybe you're right: that's why I asked for more examples. Meanwhile I can only use the information that i

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 10 Hours ago by: Stephen Pelc

What I can say is limited by what I know and what I am allowed to say. MPE is doing some tool-making for them. They have completed a fair number of chips. No click baiting. Let's assume that 6Hz is a target figure for some unknown proce

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 10 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

A language is a tool for applications - the old hammer and nail example comes to mind. If a language - Forth included - is not used in real applications the world will not bother but just use other tools which work better - or they li

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 11 Hours ago by: Ilya Tarasov

I will be happy if many Forth projects will be active, with many approaches and a rich base of practical applications. Shrinking Forth to a limited set of 'blessed' leaders and a fan club will lead to fail of false leaders and disappoin

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 11 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

99% of the people here with fingers crossed - including YOU - can only make it better, as none of us are involved in this design or the VFX software adaptations. So, let us just be supportive. And positive. The future will tell - or d

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 11 Hours ago by: Ilya Tarasov

OMG, you are completely missing this. EDA tools for silicon are not masterpiece generators, it looks like MS Paint with basic set of features, and you need to create something really smart. Automatization is very limited because there ar

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 11 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

Ilya, we can only take what Stephen is allowed to mention. Let us be happy that something happens on the Forth front. How much these clock speeds or Instruction execution times vary in either direction is unclear and will only be known

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 11 Hours ago by: Ilya Tarasov

People are free in general and I have no goal to attract someone. You are talking about a kind of cult with certain hierarchy and 'allowed' phrases about key points. Not every mention of Forth should generate a positive reaction I s

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 11 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

Chip designers, it sounds like. Well, chip designers manage to do it. Do EDA tools not mostly automate that? I.e. the designer writes HDL rather than drawing a schematic. The tools handle all the layout etc.

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 11 Hours ago by: Andy Valencia

A lambda binds a name to a value. The name and its value are invariant. Local variables are writable. You can read and write them. (In one variation, the name meant "fetch", and you used a prefix to mention the variable for purposes of

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 12 Hours ago by: Ilya Tarasov

Well, I'm really wonder to see people who can estimate 6 GHz as a clock speed. We must not be disoriented by news and journalists reviews. In reality, clock speed above 1 GHz is not easy to achieve, regardless of technology node. Reasons

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 12 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

I sometimes imagine a Forth where the parameters to a word can be referenced like in Unix shells, i.e. automatically bound to $1, $2, etc. Do you like that, as an alternative to making up names for them?

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 12 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

I took it to mean 40*6ghz = 240gips total. We also don't know the die size, or what else is on the die. It could be some kind of array processor for machine vision, or any number of other things.

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 12 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

The Intel CPU in your laptop was the end goal of the Intel engineers who made it. The revenue that Intel collected from selling it was the end goal of Intel management. Running useful programs was your end goal in buying it. But truthf

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 13 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

I'm having trouble understanding the difference between local variables and what you're calling lambda binding. Your example looks like what I'd have thought was a normal use of locals. Or do you mean the distinction is that they are li

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 13 Hours ago by: Jurgen Pitaske

Clickbaiting on CLF - who is there to clickbait? It might just attract the Peter Forths and Hugh Aguilars. And they have been stumm until now. I am quite surprised about your negativity. If a customer wants to have a chip as you des

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 16 Hours ago by: Ilya Tarasov

So clickbaiting. 6 GHz meaning 40*150MHz? This is IPS parameter (Instruction per second), not clock speed. If instruction needs more than 1 cycle in average, CPI (cycle per instruction) is needed as well. Intel CPU with 6 cores, 2 thre

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 17 Hours ago by: Andy Valencia

I miss Jeff. His sentiment resonates with me, and I like the notion of classifying by whether something has a name. Local variables resulted in hateful code which I did not want to write. However, binding a name (once) to a value (lamb

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 18 Hours ago by: Rick C

"it means the stack processor is no longer the hardware end goal" It seems YOU are obsessed with knowing the "end goal" of using a stack processor, so much so that you don't realize you made the statement. This is just your conjectur

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 18 Hours ago by: Rick C

No, I don't, because I don't consider my code to be remotely typical of any class of application. Who cares really? The issue is not about Forth code nearly as much as it is about you shooting your mouth off based on a few examples you

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 22 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

The end goal is up to the user. I wouldn't presume to tell someone else what their end goal is, or assume that it is the same as mine. In this particular case, the OP's end goal was unclear enough that I had to ask what it was. I never

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 27 Days 23 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

I don't think I'm an authority. I asked to see examples of this well organized Forth code that doesn't manipulate the stack much. I did get a few responses, that look like code with rather regular structure, but I'm not done looking at

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 1 Hour ago by: Fourthy Forth

Stephen, thank you. Good new. Pity Ga not do after all years. Ga so difficult!

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 4 Hours ago by: Rick C

What's your point? Why would any sort of processor be an "end goal'??? Even the Intel CPU in my laptop is not an end goal. The end goal is to run useful programs. Where do you get these ideas???

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 4 Hours ago by: dxforth

Jeff Fox asserted 'the stack was for things that don't need names'. It says more about the user than Forth when his first extension is the elimination of stack operators.

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 4 Hours ago by: Rick C

Yes, from your tiny corner of the world that exposes you to very, very little Forth and yet you speak as if you are a great authority. Because the stack processor is smaller and easier to implement in an FPGA. That is the context of

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 14 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

The Novix was able to reach into the interior of the R stack like that? Of course then R is more like a register file. This page looks interesting even though I can't read it. I'll try google translate on it when I get a chance.

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 14 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

Nice!

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 14 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

Nice, but does anything in those designs go architecturally beyond the stuff in Koopman's book? Does that also apply to a traditional threaded Forth? That's what I had in mind about Forth being simple. Of course you can use fancier a

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 14 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

No of course not, hardly anyone does. Yes, from Bill Thurston's "On Proof and Progress in Mathematics" ( https://arxiv.org/abs/math/9404236 ): When I started working on foliations, I had the conception that what people wanted was

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 16 Hours ago by: Matthias Koch

+ RV32IMC

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 17 Hours ago by: Marcel Hendrix

But what is 'intrinsic' in an extensible language? A 'local variable' is a variable residing on a stack. Instead of '3 pick' one accesses it with a temporary name, say "x". Forth handles the administration at compile time. It is not mor

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 17 Hours ago by: Anton Ertl

Sorry, I misspelled "juggling". _All else being equal_, I prefer Forth code without stack manipulation words to Forth code with. You don't? As for avoiding locals in variable-based languages, newbies in such languages typically do not

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 19 Hours ago by: none

The tingle tangle video on youtube plays the following program ==================================================================\ $Id: landmann.sco,v 1.4 2018/09/26 12:52:52 albert Exp $ \ Copyright (2018): Albert van der Horst {by GNU P

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 19 Hours ago by: Stephen Pelc

Hear, Hear! Stephen

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 19 Hours ago by: Stephen Pelc

There have been designs and papers by Crispin Bailey (Uni Teesside, Uni York) and Klaus Scleisiek (MicroCore) among others. These use industry standard design and layout tools, so can adapt quickly to updated devices and processes. Bin

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 19 Hours ago by: none

Yes, so what? Do you understand the proof of Fermat's conjecture? Is that relevant? This also matters to me, and I'm working on a simple Forth, to illustrate that. What I explained matters to GCC users a great deal. GCC does a lot and i

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 20 Hours ago by: none

That feature was present in the FIETS project in the 80's in FIG chapter Holland. Chuck Moore with the NOVIX beat us to it, so we never went far with it. We made an emulator though. Glad to hear that this feature is useful. With us it nev

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 20 Hours ago by: dxforth

Except it's not "shuffling". Stack operators are essential to a stack-based language as locals are to a variable-based language. Nobody argues avoiding locals in C is the ideal which is only partly achieved. The aim, rather, is to use t

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 21 Hours ago by: dxforth

It means using those words appropriately. I've seen SWAP CMOVE enough times to make me wonder whether the latter was designed incorrectly. Clumsy to whom? You've seen my TPINST.LST. I've updated/revised it to the point where I'd stru

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 21 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

Yes, that's why I kept asking why this thread was started. Why would you roll a processor to do a specific job? The most obvious reason (other than that it's cool) is you're using an FPGA to implement particular timing sensitive functio

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 21 Hours ago by: Anton Ertl

Sure they do. If these words were never used, they would not be there. So designing the Forth program to avoid stack shuffling words is an ideal, that is usually only partly achieved. Of course, you can fully achieve it using locals, b

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 21 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

Has anything new happened in the field since then? I'm familiar with DTC, ITC, bytecode (TTC), and STC. Not sure what you mean by in-lined, if not direct generation of native machine code. That might be ok as a wide outline, but it

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 22 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

By stack juggling I just mean there is significant use of DUP, SWAP, DROP, ROT, and related words in the program. I keep hearing that a really well designed Forth program has its words take parameters in the right order so that those sta

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 22 Hours ago by: dxforth

If by "stack juggling" one means 'I dislike the stack and would rather use locals' then forth would be inadvisable for that person. It would be like asking me to like C or Pascal - which isn't going to happen, regardless of the excellent

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 23 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

That's reasonable but it doesn't give you a total understanding of the compiler, like you can have of a small Forth or Lisp compiler. Imagine a 100 page, complicated math proof which is well written and organized into lemmas, etc. You c

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 28 Days 23 Hours ago by: Paul Rubin

I'd be interested in seeing some Forth applications with very little stack juggling. The ones I've looked at have considerable. They do that using register allocation just like C compilers, except here we're talking about a stack cpu,

Re: Forth CPU on an FPGA Wanted

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 29 Days 6 Hours ago by: Rick C

We've had discussions like this in the past... many times. They typically show you have done little if anything with Forth or stack processors. There is very little stack juggling in most applications. If there is it shows the presence

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 29 Days 15 Hours ago by: Marcel Hendrix

Integer / floating-point? 'C' or Forth-like? How much memory can it address (and how)? OS? -marcel

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 29 Days 15 Hours ago by: Clive Arthur

I hope they've read the PSC1000 manual. Fetch and store to the return stack and the ability to drop multiple items from it is dead handy for locals. eg 3r@ - copy 3rd R to TOS 5r! - TOS to 5th R 6 rdrop - drop top 6 items from R an

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 29 Days 16 Hours ago by: Stephen Pelc

One of the interesting parts of this design is that it is done in Verilog using industry standard tool chains and is prototyped in FPGAs. The designers are getting paid for the chips. How much will be open is yet to be seen/decided. The

Re: 6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 29 Days 17 Hours ago by: Brian Fox

That's really exciting Stephen. I have always found it tragic that Chuck's CPU ideas didn't find a home in the bigger world. If it's allowed can you tell us anything about the architecture. - Which family it leans towards. shBoom perha

Re: Working with F83

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 29 Days 17 Hours ago by: David Schultz

The CP/M CCP does some setting up activity before starting a program. Part of the program space is occupied by the base page. Which contains bits like a copy of the command line, and up to two FCBs that the CCP parsed from the command lin

6 GHz stack machine

comp.lang.forth

Posted: 29 Days 19 Hours ago by: Stephen Pelc

An MPE client is currently designing a new dual-stack machine. The predicted performance is 6 GHz (instructions per second). 40 CPUs occupy less than 1 sqare mm. It's for real, and they have a paying client for it. Depending on life, ther

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