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devel / rocksolid.programming / Re: Category-Based Web

SubjectAuthor
* The Modern WebAnonUser
+* The Modern WebAnonUser
|`* The Modern Webanonymous
| `* The Modern WebAnonUser
|  `* The Modern Webanonymous
|   `* The Modern WebAnonUser
|    `* Re The Modern Webtrw
|     `- Re The Modern WebAnonUser
+* Ideas for an Alternative WebAnonUser
|+* Ideas for an Alternative Webanonymous
||`- Ideas for an Alternative WebAnonUser
|+* Handling MediaAnonUser
||+* Handling Mediaanonymous
|||`* Handling MediaAnonUser
||| `* Handling Mediaanonymous
|||  `- Handling MediaAnonUser
||`* Handling MediaAnonUser
|| `* Handling Mediatrw
||  `* Handling MediaAnonUser
||   `* Handling Mediatrw
||    `* Handling MediaAnonUser
||     `* Handling MediaAnonymous
||      `- Handling MediaAnonymous
|+* Handling Media with StreamsAnonUser
||`- Handling Media with StreamsAnonUser
|+* Media SanitizationAnonUser
||`- Media SanitizationAnonUser
|`* Category-Based WebAnonUser
| `* Category-Based WebAnonUser
|  +* Category-Based Webanon
|  |`* Category-Based WebAnonUser
|  | +- Category-Based WebRetro Guy
|  | `- PrototypeAnonUser
|  `* Category-Based Webanon
|   `- Category-Based WebAnonUser
+- The Modern Webtrw
`- The Modern WebAnonUser

Pages:12
Re: Handling Media

<qqkjll$b13$1@def2.org>

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From: trw...@i2pmail.org (trw)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: Handling Media
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 17:15:17 -0500
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 by: trw - Thu, 14 Nov 2019 22:15 UTC

Maybe just a crazy thought, but why don't you just use a subset of the pdf format ? You have nicely formatted text and pictures, and you can gradually allow other media as well, if you want.
Of course you would have to exclude all the nasty scripting and and remote fonts stuff...
Posted on def3

Re: Handling Media

<f18a93b230423342b2fe65b05d95b126$1@rocksolidbbs.com>

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From: anonu...@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com.remove-t4y-this (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: Handling Media
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 14:13:56 +0000
Organization: RetroBBS
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 by: AnonUser - Sat, 16 Nov 2019 14:13 UTC

To: trw
Hmm I'll look into it. Got myself a copy of the ISO 32000:2008 standard
(PDF
1.7) from here:
https://www.adobe.com/content/dam/acom/en/devnet/acrobat/pdfs/PDF32000_2008.pdf

I just glanced over it for now, will have to read through it in detail.
There
are a lot of features I didn't even know PDF had. Though I think I would
end up
with the same issues that browsers face today, even if I strip it bare:
everything being built-in and hard to replace individual components. At
least
that is my line of thinking.
--
Posted on RetroBBS

Re: Handling Media with Streams

<a3e003876251dfd8916c8416f90b52ef$1@rocksolidbbs.com>

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From: anonu...@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com.remove-lyv-this (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: Handling Media with Streams
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 14:54:35 +0000
Organization: RetroBBS
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 by: AnonUser - Sat, 16 Nov 2019 14:54 UTC

To: AnonUser
Using streams or a general network or ipc based API may actually be the
preferable way to do things.

Sure, I would have to implement the basic programs first or port existing
ones
(image viewer, video player, etc.), but it would allow the browser to be
highly
extensible and offload security concerns from the base browser to the
individual programs which are also sandboxed per-process. It's basically
the
OpenBSD way of doing security: keep the base so simple and generalized
that you
can't have security issues. Everything extra beyond the base is a risk the
user
has to willingly make.

How would it be if I would continue this idea to the extreme? For example,
if I
were to generalize not only the network api between the browser and the
external embedded program, but also the way the browser embeds other
programs
into itself, then I've essentially got a standardized file format where
everything is embedded. This would also mean that the screen space would be
divided up into blocks (think "html div" or "html block") in which the
programs
would be embedded and this would also mean that even a "text block" would
have
its own dedicated program which _only_ displays text.

I first thought about doing things the hybrid way with the previous
embedded
idea where a text block is built in while something like an image or video
uses
an external embedded program. The question is, why is a text block any more
special than an image? Why not go to the extreme and make it also an
external
embedded program which displays text? The only advantage of the hybrid
approach
is that it uses slightly less ram, but at the cost of extra complexity and
possibly security issues due to the added complexity (maintaining differing
ways to handle each block vs one truly generalized way).

I hope this incoherent rambling makes at least some sense :D. This may
actually
be crazy enough to work well in practice...
--
Posted on RetroBBS

Re: The Modern Web

<cdb3a888e1ad05b09f38846830352aaf$1@rocksolidbbs.com>

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From: anonu...@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com.remove-ba6-this (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: The Modern Web
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 12:24:55 +0000
Organization: RetroBBS
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 by: AnonUser - Mon, 18 Nov 2019 12:24 UTC

To: AnonUser
As I mentioned elsewhere, using dedicated programs to the web would be
preferable for performance and efficiency reasons and there is a project
that
does exactly that:

http://weboob.org/

It's written in python, but even so it's less bloated and more efficient
than
the modern browser. I do not think it is _the_ way to solve the problem,
but it
seems to be an interesting project nonetheless. One issue it has is that
content isn't interlinked as it is with the web, which is one major
drawback.

This brings me to a similar idea that I'll try to formalize in another
post.

- crowbar
--
Posted on RetroBBS

Re: Category-Based Web

<c48cf874d63e573981ed98096357860f$1@rocksolidbbs.com>

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From: anonu...@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com.remove-igd-this (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: Category-Based Web
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:25:25 +0000
Organization: RetroBBS
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 by: AnonUser - Mon, 18 Nov 2019 14:25 UTC

To: AnonUser
Weboob.org got me thinking and I came up with an idea based on the
principles
of Weboob.

With this idea, we will be dividing and limiting what "categories" of web
pages
can exist. For each category of a web page we will have a dedicated
program to
handle it. So it's basically like Weboob, where we have a few programs and
those interface to services.

We don't however write modules to support different websites in the sense
Weboob does, we create API's that dictate what is possible for each
category
and for each category we create a dedicated program to handle it. Website
developers will have to implement those specific API's to allow the
programs to
interface with them.

The problem of Weboob as I see it, is that between the programs there is no
linkability. If I am using the program which displays ASCII text, I want
to be
able to click on a link inside it and let it open another ASCII text page.
This
means that the programs themselves must be able to identify links on their
own
_without_ extra metadata and have a mechanism to execute each other
(through
the browser for example).

All these dedicated programs will then be tied together using a browser to
allow seamless tabbed usage of all programs like we have today on modern
browsers.

The advantages using this approach:
* very easy to implement
* bloat-free
* anonymity and privacy is easy to guarantee
* controlled dynamic(!) content possible and also safe
* dedicated programs to handle each category
* easy to replace individual dedicated programs
* dedicated programs can be written in any language
* reduced bandwidth usage (markup not transferred)
* sandboxing individual programs possible

The disadvantages:
* less freedom for web developers, as they have to abide by category API
and
don't have much room for customizations unless specifically allowed for by
the API
* we _need_ to either heavily modify or write our own programs to make
this work

I actually _really_ like this idea.

--
Posted on RetroBBS

Re: Category-Based Web

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From: AnonU...@rslight.i2p (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: Category-Based Web
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 02:28:27 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Rocksolid Light
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 by: AnonUser - Wed, 20 Nov 2019 02:28 UTC

AnonUser wrote:

> To: AnonUser
> Weboob.org got me thinking and I came up with an idea based on the
> principles
> of Weboob.

> With this idea, we will be dividing and limiting what "categories" of web
> pages
> can exist. For each category of a web page we will have a dedicated
> program to
> handle it. So it's basically like Weboob, where we have a few programs and
> those interface to services.

> We don't however write modules to support different websites in the sense
> Weboob does, we create API's that dictate what is possible for each
> category
> and for each category we create a dedicated program to handle it. Website
> developers will have to implement those specific API's to allow the
> programs to
> interface with them.

This is an interesting idea. One thing the Freenet Project has done is
provide
a simple interface to generate "Freesites". If you provide developers an
easy
way to create their site, some might actually do so.

> The disadvantages:
> * less freedom for web developers, as they have to abide by category API
> and
> don't have much room for customizations unless specifically allowed for by
> the API
> * we _need_ to either heavily modify or write our own programs to make
> this work

I would assume only those who are interested in the project itself would
create
sites, like i2p or Freenet developers write for their project out of
interest
for the project itself. Others may not see any reason.

> I actually _really_ like this idea.

It's very interesting!

--
Posted on Rocksolid Light

Re: Category-Based Web

<635cc6caf233e31df83190fb5e13f3ac@def4>

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From: ano...@anon.com (anon)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Message-ID: <635cc6caf233e31df83190fb5e13f3ac@def4>
Subject: Re: Category-Based Web
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 22:47:20+0000
Organization: def5
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 by: anon - Fri, 22 Nov 2019 22:47 UTC

And once you are done, don't forget to include an api for federation to news servers. :-)

Posted on def4

Re: Category-Based Web

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From: anonu...@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com.remove-uk5-this (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: Category-Based Web
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 03:14:45 +0000
Organization: RetroBBS
Message-ID: <d4ff2a5ca2b38be095c4f77ec2ea56c4$1@rocksolidbbs.com>
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 by: AnonUser - Sun, 24 Nov 2019 03:14 UTC

To: anon
>And once you are done
That will take a while :). Still working out the specifications, but I
have already started working on a prototype. I'll share my progress once I
have it in a somewhat pre-aplha state.

>don't forget to include an api for federation to news servers. :-)
Yeah, I'm planning to add federation support to the forum server when I
get there. Rocksolid uses NNTP to federate, correct?
--
Posted on RetroBBS

Re: Category-Based Web

<eb428cac8bbc63709a06b6427f96c508$1@www.rocksolidbbs.com>

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From: retro....@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com.remove-g00-this (Retro Guy)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: Category-Based Web
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 11:18:58 +0000
Organization: RetroBBS
Message-ID: <eb428cac8bbc63709a06b6427f96c508$1@www.rocksolidbbs.com>
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 by: Retro Guy - Sun, 24 Nov 2019 11:18 UTC

To: AnonUser
AnonUser wrote:

>>don't forget to include an api for federation to news servers. :-)
> Yeah, I'm planning to add federation support to the forum server when I
> get there. Rocksolid uses NNTP to federate, correct?

That's correct, just standard nntp servers.

--
Posted on RetroBBS

Re: Prototype

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Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Subject: Re: Prototype
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2019 20:58:41 +0000
Organization: RetroBBS
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 by: AnonUser - Tue, 3 Dec 2019 20:58 UTC
Attachments: lean.zip (application/zip)

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>I have already started working on a prototype

I've called it "Lean".

Overall I'm not too pleased with it, but more on that later.

To give a quick overview, I've implemented:
- - A binary format specification called LDSF (Lean Data Serialization
Format) and implemented a library with property tests in Haskell
- - A protocol called Lean, a stateless binary protocol that uses the
binary format LDSF
- - A Haskell library called lean-client which is a simple to use client
implementation of the Lean protocol
- - A browser called Lean
- - A handler for the category "text" which gets embedded seamlessly into
the browser (ascii file viewer which highlights links such as
lean://example.i2p/text/some_text_file.txt and makes them clickable)

One thing I'm really not happy about is the delay introduced by launching
the handler programs. e.g. when you browse to
"lean://crowbar.i2p/text/test.txt", it knows it has to launch the program
lean-handler-text because of the /text/ in the URL to handle it, but the
delay of starting a GUI program is not insignificant and therefore quite
noticeable.

This delay is especially prominent on single board computers, _even_ if
the handler program is written in _plain old C_. A GTK+ or Qt GUI program
simply takes a bit to start up and there isn't much one can do other than
pre-launch that program and let it idle around. It currently uses around
3-4MB private memory for the browser and around the same amount per
handler. So the RAM usage per tab would be around 3-10MB depending on the
content and handler.

Right now, because I haven't implemented a "real" server yet, the browser
just acts as if it would be corresponding with a server. This is so that I
can test the interactions between the browser and the handlers, which is
the most important bit right now.

I did not expect embedding would be such a pain in the ass and quite
messy. Getting it working reliably on multiple window managers on Linux is
probably going to be a real nightmare.

I've attached the source code.

SHA512:
2bb31805e9433ccf9d58fc389f1367560c0c3bd6c80e80ef642531274c4bfbb51be0efbb7021be38a82d12945fd6931db970e804e582c5b29b543c7a6faea073

There's a a README.md file in there that explains how to build it.
Currently it only works on GNU/Linux with X11. It's only a prototype,
don't expect things to actually work properly. No idea if I'm going to
continue with this.

Quickstart:
cabal new-build lean lean-handler text
cabal new-run lean
then type into the url bar: lean://crowbar.i2p/text/test.txt
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Attachments: lean.zip (application/zip)
Re: Category-Based Web

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 by: anon - Wed, 4 Dec 2019 00:17 UTC

thats some cool shit, my dude. i thought you would spent more time on the specs.
concerning the loading: you could try to select (and recommend to your users) a set of programs which are very lightweight and quick. Could be something ncursed based for the text part, for example. and those who prefer to use bloatware hopefully have the machines and the ram for it.
sounds really like a nice start anyway.

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Subject: Re: Category-Based Web
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 by: AnonUser - Wed, 4 Dec 2019 10:01 UTC

To: anon
>thats some cool shit, my dude. i thought you would spent more time on the specs.
Thanks. Specs are far from complete, ultimately I want to specify everything, remove all ambiguity and write them in RFC-format. This is mainly to see if it is any good in practice.

>concerning the loading: you could try to select (and recommend to your users) a set of programs which are very lightweight and quick. Could be something ncursed based for the text part, for example. and those who prefer to use bloatware hopefully have the machines and the ram for it.
This is a good point, ncurses based UI would be extremely fast and also very usable with this design. I still want to make a GUI version that is extremely fast on single board computers if possible. I have a few ideas I will be testing.
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