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* Are there any Biology Obsessed people on i2p? How true is this?Guest
+* Re: Are there any Biology Obsessed people on i2p? How trAnonUser
|`* Re: Are there any Biology Obsessed people on i2p? How trAnonUser
| `* Re: Are there any Biology Obsessed people on i2p? How trAnonUser
|  `* Re: Are there any Biology Obsessed people on i2p? How trAnonUser
|   `- Re: Are there any Biology Obsessed people on i2p? How true is this?Guest
`- ok, i will attempt to contributeAnonymous

Subject: Are there any Biology Obsessed people on i2p? How true is this?
From: guest@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com (Guest)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.shared.general
Organization: Dancing elephants
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 10:44 UTC
Original link:  https://www.independentsciencenews.org/health/the-case-is-building-that-covid-19-had-a-lab-origin/


The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin

By Jonathan Latham, PhD and Allison Wilson, PhD

If the public has learned a lesson from the COVID-19 pandemic it is that science does not generate certainty. Do homemade face masks work? What is the death rate of COVID-19? How accurate are the tests? How many people have no symptoms? And so on. Practically the lone undisputed assertion made so far is that all the nearest known genetic relatives of its cause, the Sars-CoV-2 virus, are found in horseshoe bats (Zhou et al., 2020). Therefore, the likely viral reservoir was a bat.

However, most of these ancestor-like bat coronaviruses cannot infect humans (Ge et al., 2013). In consequence, from its beginning, a key question hanging over the pandemic has been: How did a bat RNA virus evolve into a human pathogen that is both virulent and deadly?

The answer almost universally seized upon is that there was an intermediate species. Some animal, perhaps a snake, perhaps a palm civet, perhaps a pangolin, served as a temporary host. This bridging animal would probably have had an ACE2 cellular receptor (the molecule which allows cellular entry of the virus) intermediate in protein sequence (or at least structure) between the bat and the human one (Wan et al., 2020).

Shi Zheng-Li releases a bat
Shi Zheng-Li releases a bat
In the press and in the scientific literature, scenarios by which this natural zoonotic transfer might have occurred have been endlessly mulled. Most were fuelled by early findings that many of the earliest COVID-19 cases seem to have occurred in and around Wuhan's Huanan live animal market. [The latest data are that 14 of the 41 earliest cases, including the first, had no connection to the animal market (Huang et al. 2020)].

Since the two previous coronavirus near-pandemics of SARS (2002-3) and MERS (2012) both probably came from bats and both are thought (but not proven) to have transitioned to humans via intermediate animals (civets and dromedaries respectively), a natural zoonotic pathway is a reasonable first assumption (Andersen et al., 2020).

The idea, as it applied to the original (2002) SARS outbreak, is that the original bat virus infected a civet. The virus then evolved briefly in this animal species, but not enough to cause a civet pandemic, and then was picked up by a human before it died out in civets. In this first human (patient zero) the virus survived, perhaps only barely, but was passed on, marking the first case of human to human transmission. As it was successively passed on in its first few human hosts the virus rapidly evolved, adapting to better infect its new hosts. After a few such tentative transmissions the pandemic proper began.

Perhaps this scenario is approximately how the current COVID-19 pandemic began.

But one other troubling possibility must be dispensed with. It follows from the fact that the epicentre city, Wuhan (pop. 11 million), happens to be the global epicentre of bat coronavirus research (e.g. Hu et al., 2017).

Prompted by this proximity, various researchers and news media, prominently the Washington Post, and with much more data Newsweek, have drawn up a prima facie case that a laboratory origin is a strong possibility (Zhan et al., 2020; Piplani et al., 2020). That is, one of the two labs in Wuhan that has worked on coronaviruses accidentally let a natural virus escape; or, the lab was genetically engineering (or otherwise manipulating) a Sars-CoV-2-like virus which then escaped.

Unfortunately, in the US at least, the question of the pandemic's origin has become a political football; either an opportunity for Sinophobia or a partisan "blame game".

But the potential of a catastrophic lab release is not a game and systemic problems of competence and opacity are certainly not limited to China (Lipsitch, 2018). The US Department of Homeland Security (DHS) is currently constructing a new and expanded national Bio and Agro-defense facility in Manhattan, Kansas. DHS has estimated that the 50-year risk (defined as having an economic impact of $9-50 billion) of a release from its lab at 70%.

When a National Research Council committee inspected these DHS estimates they concluded "The committee finds that the risks and costs could well be significantly higher than that".

A subsequent committee report (NAP, 2012) continued:

"the committee was instructed to judge the adequacy and validity of the uSSRA [updated Site-Specific Risk Assessment]. The committee has identified serious concerns about (1) the misapplication of methods used to assess risk, (2) the failure to make clear whether and how the evidence used to support risk assessment assumptions had been thoroughly reviewed and adequately evaluated, (3) the limited breadth of literature cited and the misinterpretation of some of the significant supporting literature, (4) the failure to explain the criteria used to select assumptions when supporting literature is conflicting, (5) the failure to consider important risk pathways, and (6) the inadequate treatment of uncertainty. Those deficiencies are not equally problematic, but they occur with sufficient frequency to raise doubts about the adequacy and validity of the risk results presented. In most instances (e.g., operational activities at the NBAF), the identified problems lead to an underestimation of risk; in other instances (e.g., catastrophic natural hazards), the risks may be overestimated. As a result, the committee concludes that the uSSRA is technically inadequate in critical respects and i
s an insufficient basis on which to judge the risks associated with the proposed NBAF in Manhattan, Kansas."

China, meanwhile, having opened its first in Wuhan in 2018, is planning to roll out a national network of BSL-4 labs (Yuan, 2019). Like many other countries, it is investing significantly in disease surveillance and collection of viruses from wild animal populations and in high-risk recombinant virus research with Potential Pandemic Pathogens (PPPs).

On May 4th, nations and global philanthropies, meeting in Brussels, committed $7.4 billion to future pandemic preparedness. But the question hanging over all such investments is this: the remit of the Wuhan lab at the centre of the accidental release claims is pandemic preparedness. If the COVID-19 pandemic began there then we need to radically rethink current ideas for pandemic preparation globally. Many researchers already believe we should, for the sake of both safety and effectiveness (Lipsitch and Galvani, 2014; Weiss et al., 2015; Lipsitch, 2018). The worst possible outcome would be for those donated billions to accelerate the arrival of the next pandemic.

Historical lab releases, a brief history

An accidental lab release is not merely a theoretical possibility. In 1977 a laboratory in Russia (or possibly China), most likely while developing a flu vaccine, accidentally released the extinct H1N1 influenza virus (Nakajima et al., 1978). H1N1 went on to become a global pandemic virus. A large proportion of the global population became infected. In this case, deaths were few because the population aged over 20 yrs old had historic immunity to the virus. This episode is not widely known because only recently has this conclusion been formally acknowledged in the scientific literature and the virology community has been reluctant to discuss such incidents (Zimmer and Burke, 2009; Wertheim, 2010). Still, laboratory pathogen escapes leading to human and animal deaths (e.g. smallpox in Britain; equine encephalitis in South America) are common enough that they ought to be much better known (summarised in Furmanski, 2014). Only rarely have these broken out into actual pandemics on the scale of H1N1, which, incidentally, broke out again in 2009/2010 as "Swine flu" causing deaths estimated variously at 3,000 to 200,000 on that occasion (Duggal et al., 2016; Simonsen et al. 2013).

Many scientists have warned that experiments with PPPs, like the smallpox and Ebola and influenza viruses, are inherently dangerous and should be subject to strict limits and oversight (Lipsitch and Galvani, 2014; Klotz and Sylvester, 2014). Even in the limited case of SARS-like coronaviruses, since the quelling of the original SARS outbreak in 2003, there have been six documented SARS disease outbreaks originating from research laboratories, including four in China. These outbreaks caused 13 individual infections and one death (Furmanski, 2014). In response to such concerns the US banned certain classes of experiments, called gain of function (GOF) experiments, with PPPs in 2014, but the ban (actually a funding moratorium) was lifted in 2017.

For these reasons, and also to ensure the effectiveness of future pandemic preparedness efforts­, it is a matter of vital international importance to establish whether the laboratory escape hypothesis has credible evidence to support it. This must be done regardless of the problemin the USof toxic partisan politics and nationalism.

The COVID-19 Wuhan lab escape thesis

The essence of the lab escape theory is that Wuhan is the site of the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV), China's first and only Biosafety Level 4 (BSL-4) facility. (BSL-4 is the highest pathogen security level). The WIV, which added a BSL-4 lab only in 2018, has been collecting large numbers of coronaviruses from bat samples ever since the original SARS outbreak of 2002-2003; including collecting more in 2016 (Hu, et al., 2017; Zhou et al., 2018).

Led by researcher Zheng-Li Shi, WIV scientists have also published experiments in which live bat coronaviruses were introduced into human cells (Hu et al., 2017). Moreover, according to an April 14 article in the Washington Post, US Embassy staff visited the WIV in 2018 and "had grave safety concerns" about biosecurity there. The WIV is just eight miles from the Huanan live animal market that was initially thought to be the site of origin of the COVID-19 pandemic.

Click here to read the complete article
Subject: Re: Are there any Biology Obsessed people on i2p? How true is this?
From: AnonUser@rslight.i2p (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.shared.general
Organization: Rocksolid Light
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 00:18 UTC
Attachments: covid-28-jun-2020.jpg (image/jpeg)
Guest wrote:

Original link: 
https://www.independentsciencenews.org/health/the-case-is-building-that-covid-19-had-a-lab-origin/


The Case Is Building That COVID-19 Had a Lab Origin

By Jonathan Latham, PhD and Allison Wilson, PhD

I've assumed most of this time that was a modified virus from a lab. I don't believe there was an intentional release, but that it was a mistake.

My biggest issue watching this all play out is that at first it was frightening due to it being unknown how dangerous it is, so always play safe, I agree with that. Then once it was seen how populations could be controlled by this fear, it just went out of control.

Numbers are being messed with to keep it looking scary. Yeah, it's a scary virus but why not make it look 100x more scary! People sit in their homes and only see news reports of how horrible it is outside. Be afraid of everyone, trust us (gov't) to protect you. Just do what we say. I was driving home from work last night (yeah, I go to work), and saw a portable roadside sign that said 'MASK UP', and I just thought 'FUCK OFF'.

Now they're testing way more people and then saying look how many more people have it! Do you really think they didn't have it already. Statistics can be a big game to prove whatever point you want to make.




Attachments: covid-28-jun-2020.jpg 
Subject: Re: Are there any Biology Obsessed people on i2p? How true is this?
From: AnonUser@rslight.i2p (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.shared.general
Organization: Rocksolid Light
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 00:50 UTC
omfg, just saw this on twitter:

Defund The Police@xxxxx·5m
Yes because getting your information from a “.com” website is so smart. I was taught to not pay attention from websites that aren’t .gov or .org but stupid is as stupid does


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Posted on: Rocksolid Light
rslight.i2p



Subject: Re: Are there any Biology Obsessed people on i2p? How true is this?
From: AnonUser@rslight.i2p (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.shared.general
Organization: Rocksolid Light
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 00:58 UTC
and... go fuck yourself nonotsteph:

Honeybee@nonotsteph·2h
Replying to @dougducey
FOR A MONTH???? we are #1 for covid and you think it’s gonna be better in only a month???? close EVERYTHING for LONGER

you might notice that i'm pretty fucking sick of everything being shut down.

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Posted on: Rocksolid Light
rslight.i2p



Subject: Re: Are there any Biology Obsessed people on i2p? How true is this?
From: AnonUser@rslight.i2p (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.shared.general
Organization: Rocksolid Light
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 01:06 UTC
oh please please please control me/us more than you already are!

GlitterDabs710⚪@GlitterDabs·50m
Replying to @dougducey
Perhaps if you would just used the balls that apparently made your children, you would have put us on complete lockdown through June.

realize this is the governor who when asked if a bar could be a restaurant if it served food said, "well, i've heard that at some bars you can buy hamburgers, so that might be the case". he is incredibly out of touch with the people he keeps jerking around.

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Posted on: Rocksolid Light
rslight.i2p



Subject: Re: Are there any Biology Obsessed people on i2p? How true is this?
From: guest@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com (Guest)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.shared.general
Organization: Dancing elephants
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 16:49 UTC
Sorry guys,  I was NOT looking for reactions.  I was looking for someone that understands Biology and experiments.  If I was looking for reactions I would have used Twitter or some other channel. Posted on def3


Subject: ok, i will attempt to contribute
From: poster@anon.com (Anonymous)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.shared.general
Organization: def5
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2020 18:39 UTC
i will try to contribute something to discuss the actual questions, which are:

Are there any Biology Obsessed people on i2p?

Not sure, and if yes, I am not one of them. It is noteworthy though to state that while you seemingly posted on an i2p site (def3.i2p), your post will go to i2p, tor and the clearnet, including a number of news servers around the world. So yu asked the internet, not only the i2p part of it.

How true is this?

I am not a biologist, but I do have a scientific background, so I can at least assess the basic statements.
One thing I can say is that I did not find any parts where the authors contradicted themselves or just put out wild statements without rhyme or reason. This is always a good start, so their thesis _might_ be true.
It also goes along nicely with the statement of a french scientist claiming the same, but for a different reason: he said that there are HIV like sequences in the virus, for which there is no other explanation than that the virus is engineered (see here: http://def3.i2p/index.php?t=msg&th=56960 ).
To me, the key question in the article seems to be this one:

An investigation is needed, but who will do it?

Whatever the truth, it will be very difficult to prove it, and all the more because there are mighty players who don't have an interest in clearing this up. That is to say, we will most likely never know if this is true or not. We can only check if it is plausible. And the answer to this seems to be "yes".

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Posted on def2


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