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rocksolid / rocksolid.programming / Re: The Modern Web

SubjectAuthor
* The Modern WebAnonUser
+* Re: The Modern WebAnonUser
|`* Re: The Modern Webanonymous
| `* Re: The Modern WebAnonUser
|  `* Re: The Modern Webanonymous
|   `* Re: The Modern WebAnonUser
|    `* Re: Re The Modern Webtrw
|     `- Re: Re The Modern WebAnonUser
+* Ideas for an Alternative WebAnonUser
|+* Re: Ideas for an Alternative Webanonymous
||`- Re: Ideas for an Alternative WebAnonUser
|+* Handling MediaAnonUser
||+* Re: Handling Mediaanonymous
|||`* Re: Handling MediaAnonUser
||| `* Re: Handling Mediaanonymous
|||  `- Re: Handling MediaAnonUser
||`* Re: Handling MediaAnonUser
|| `* Re: Handling Mediatrw
||  `* Re: Handling MediaAnonUser
||   `* Re: Handling Mediatrw
||    `- Re: Handling MediaAnonUser
|+* Handling Media with StreamsAnonUser
||`- Re: Handling Media with StreamsAnonUser
|+* Media SanitizationAnonUser
||`- Re: Media SanitizationAnonUser
|`* Re: Category-Based WebAnonUser
| `* Re: Category-Based WebAnonUser
|  +* Re: Category-Based Webanon
|  |`* Re: Category-Based WebAnonUser
|  | +- Re: Category-Based WebRetro Guy
|  | `- Re: PrototypeAnonUser
|  `* Re: Category-Based Webanon
|   `- Re: Category-Based WebAnonUser
+- Re: The Modern Webtrw
`- Re: The Modern WebAnonUser

Subject: The Modern Web
From: anonuser@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com.remove-sdc-this (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Organization: RetroBBS
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 09:33 UTC
  To: rocksolid.programming
The modern web has become a monstrosity that is more akin to an application distribution platform more than anything else at this point and it is a terrible one at that.

It doesn't allow you to choose your own language, you are stuck with the abomination of a language that is called JavaScript. W3C even stated that WebAssembly is not meant to replace JavaScript, it is meant to complement it. What a load of bullshit. It is not possible to access the DOM directly via. WebAssembly. In other words, you will not be able to run other languages without JavaScript intermingling _by design_.

It is highly inefficient and wasteful. Any program written in HTML/CSS/JS is by default extremely resource intensive in comparison to, for example, its C++ counterpart. It hogs your memory, wastes your CPU cycles and drains your mobile's battery. Not only that, but on the desktop every electron program ships their own chromium browser, which is not what one would consider a lightweight program. Same people writing those shitty inefficient programs are devout environmentalists. What a joke.

The modern browser is a beast. A single person can not possibly implement a standard compliant browser on his own. Which is why we are stuck with a few huge browsers and they all suck equally bad.

The design of the modern browser is also not one which has privacy in mind. Data leaks through every nook and cranny. Browser fingerprinting is really easy and very reliable. Who needs IP based tracking when you've got a browser fingerprint that is pretty much unique? Add JavaScript into the mix and they also get your monitors resolution and other configurations that tie the noose around your privacy-aware neck even tighter.

The web should have been for _one_ thing, and _one_ thing only: static interlinked documents. Everything else on top is bloat at the expense of basically everything.

TL;DR: The modern web sucks dick.
--
Posted on RetroBBS



Subject: Re: The Modern Web
From: AnonUser@i2pn2.org (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Organization: i2pn2.org
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 01:27 UTC
AnonUser wrote:

The modern browser is a beast. A single person can not possibly implement a standard compliant browser on his own. Which is why we are stuck with a few huge browsers and they all suck equally bad.

Very true, and most sites try to out perform eachother with bloat. The web now is completely geared toward advertising and keeping viewers, content is the last thought.

The design of the modern browser is also not one which has privacy in mind. Data leaks through every nook and cranny. Browser fingerprinting is really easy and very reliable. Who needs IP based tracking when you've got a browser fingerprint that is pretty much unique? Add JavaScript into the mix and they also get your monitors resolution and other configurations that tie the noose around your privacy-aware neck even tighter.

It's interesting that browsers do not offer a simple way to block things like screen size, browser size etc. Sites want to look more at you than you look at them.

--
Posted on Rocksolid Light



Subject: Re: The Modern Web
From: anonymous@def2.anon (anonymous)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Organization: def2org
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 20:54 UTC
The web should have been for _one_ thing, and _one_ thing only: static
interlinked documents. Everything else on top is bloat at the expense of basically everything.

Although I agree with most of what you write...
you do realize that you use a platform that goes a bit beyond what you describe above...lol

It's interesting that browsers do not offer a simple way to block things like
screen size, browser size etc. Sites want to look more at you than you look at them.

tbb does that by default.
Posted on def2




Subject: Re: The Modern Web
From: anonuser@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com.remove-t2a-this (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Organization: RetroBBS
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 07:25 UTC
  To: anonymous
Although I agree with most of what you write... you do realize that you use
a platform that goes a bit beyond what you describe above...lol

Yes and I believe the modern web was a big mistake which will be extremely difficult to undo.

We should ideally use specific client programs where possible instead of relying on the web, but the damage is already done and now it is "convenient" because the entire infrastructure is built around these obese browsers.

Ideally the web would have stayed static and we would be accessing services through specialized client programs such that the browser would only launch external programs and it would have been just as convenient without it being monolithic, but only if the infrastructure is structured as such. As an example, when browsing to retrobbs.i2p in an alternate reality, the page would redirect you to nntp://retrobbs.i2p:119 and the browser would launch an NNTP client and let it handle the rest.

Nowadays web browsers have NIH syndrome and build everything into the browser. Case in point is the JavaScript PDF viewer in Firefox, there is ZERO reason for it to exist inside Firefox. Launching external applications to handle such things is not even a new idea. It has been possible to do this for ever but apparently browser developers rather implement their own solution and bloat their browser even further than ship an existing solution with their browser.

I believe we need a small, lean and efficient web alternative that does one thing and does it well. Might as well solve the whole privacy fiasco while we are at it. The main hurdle would be to get others on board and get them to offer their websites in an alternative format (other than html/css/js), which will be extremely difficult.

Maybe due to all the smart phone hype some people might get on board if sites load and render in milliseconds instead of seconds.
--
Posted on RetroBBS



Subject: Re: The Modern Web
From: anonymous@def2.anon (anonymous)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Organization: def2org
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 18:24 UTC
The main hurdle would be to get others on board and get them to offer their
websites in an alternative format (other than html/css/js)

firstly: what is wrong with html ?
secondly: what is wrong with css ?
thirdly: what you describe sounds nice, but there is no profit in it, so count out all commercial players. if you want text only, there are newsgroups.
Posted on def2




Subject: Re: The Modern Web
From: anonuser@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com.remove-dhv-this (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Organization: RetroBBS
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 21:40 UTC
  To: anonymous
firstly: what is wrong with html ?
secondly: what is wrong with css ?

Both too complicated for my use case. I would also avoid HTML, simply because of the overhead. Look up deserialization performance of XML, then imagine that you would also have the overhead of having to keep track of incorrect HTML and correct it (fuzzy parsing). Using existing formats also come with certain expectations. A developer will think "It's HTML! I know HTML!", then be gravely disappointed because none of the modern features are implemented, leaving a bad aftertaste.

I will probably go for a simple data format that can be compiled down to an efficient and specific binary representation, which can then be deserialized fast and efficiently on end-user clients. The protocol in the place of HTTP would probably be a simple one too, think something like Gopher.

thirdly: what you describe sounds nice, but there is no profit in it, so
count out all commercial players. if you want text only, there are newsgroups.

There is no profit in it and that is OK. I would already be happy with it if a tiny community could form around it. I want basically a bit of rich text with linking. It should ideally become something that anyone could implement in a few weeks, not an entire lifetime. Stylistically it should look modern, yet simple, something like this: http://bettermotherfuckingwebsite.com/

Usenet is great, but it is interlinking and easy use of multimedia what really sells the web (which could be achieved with launching external programs...). One could probably retrofit a usenet client to do this but that is more effort than is worth.

I have a rough draft document that I am currently working on. I need to sort through all my ideas and come to a conclusion.
--
Posted on RetroBBS



Subject: Re: Re The Modern Web
From: trw@i2pmail.org (trw)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Organization: Dancing elephants
Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 22:09 UTC
There is no profit in it and that is OK. I would already be happy with it if a tiny community could form around it. I want basically a bit of rich text with linking.

well, sounds good to me, although i am not sure about the ratio between effort and gain here.
feel free to use /rocksolid/programming to publish your code, or apply for your own forum if you want something with a bit more options than a thread.

would be cool to have a converter for normal (=bloated) websites to a nice clean text feed, stripping out all the annoying, unnecessary and dangerous stuff.

cheers

trw
Posted on def3


Subject: Re: Re The Modern Web
From: anonuser@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com.remove-wk1-this (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Organization: RetroBBS
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 12:37 UTC
  To: trw
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well, sounds good to me, although i am not sure about the ratio between
effort and gain here.
We unfortunately don't have a real alternative to the web, so from my perspective it's worth a shot.

I also do not think it is _that_ huge of an undertaking, I'm keeping it simple and uncomplicated to give others the chance to write their own implementations. I want to avoid a one-implementation standard in the long run, if possible...

feel free to use /rocksolid/programming to publish your code, or apply for
your own forum if you want something with a bit more options than a thread.
Thank you, I'll let you know if I need something more than a thread. I think with the way Usenet does threading it shouldn't be an issue to discuss ideas independently of one another easily.

would be cool to have a converter for normal (=bloated) websites to a nice
clean text feed, stripping out all the annoying, unnecessary and dangerous stuff.
I am still deciding in which direction to take this, but this would be something I would also like to implement.

I'll use this opportunity to also post my public GPG key, to prevent imposters down the line. I don't know how likely that is, but I'll just post it here anyhow.

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Comment: Created: 26/10/2019 14:17
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Comment: Usage: Signing, Encryption, Certifying User-IDs
Comment: Fingerprint: A4460A9DE1AC2FB8DD21723427DBFF1D0324D351

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--
Posted on RetroBBS



Subject: Ideas for an Alternative Web
From: anonuser@retrobbs.rocksolidbbs.com.remove-mfo-this (AnonUser)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Organization: RetroBBS
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 12:58 UTC
  To: AnonUser
I'm going to be posting my ideas below this, maybe you guys also have some ideas to share. The ideas should ideally be scrutinized keeping the following priorities in mind (descending priority).

1. security
2. privacy/anonymity
3. user experience

While user experience is lowest, I still want something that is usable by the average mortal. The elderly should ideally also be able to use it with very low schooling (if any at all). Preferably, for Windows, all you would need to do is download and run. On Linux based operating systems you should only have to install it through a package manager and it should be good to go.

I want to avoid unnecessary pre-configuration by the user. Security and anonymity should be the default configuration, but experienced users should also be able to override any security measures if they really want to.
--
Posted on RetroBBS



Subject: Re: Ideas for an Alternative Web
From: anonymous@def2.anon (anonymous)
Newsgroups: rocksolid.programming
Organization: def2org
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 20:46 UTC
while i agree with your priorities, i think you need to define a bit more on which level you want to work. there is a lot of code already, addressing all three targets that you listed on different levels.
reinventing everything seems pointless imo, so you need to decide what protocols you are going to use to achieve your purpose, and at which point you will implement your own code.
i guess this will be part of your stacK:

http/https
tor
tcp

then on top you will parse the content and do something with it.

just guessing here, really...
Posted on def2




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