So was Baku Perez's statement race?

He seemed to struggle a lot with the car in the earlier races but this whole weekend everything just clicked along.

If this is an indication of the rest of the season it will really put the pressure on Merc. They won't be able to do the undercut/overcut dance with impunity. And with Bottas being so inconsistent I think it puts both the drivers and constructors championship in play.

On 7/06/2021 5:00 pm, XYXPDQ wrote:
> So was Baku Perez's statement race?
>
> He seemed to struggle a lot with the car in the earlier races but this whole weekend everything just clicked along.
>
> If this is an indication of the rest of the season it will really put the pressure on Merc. They won't be able to do the undercut/overcut dance with impunity. And with Bottas being so inconsistent I think it puts both the drivers and constructors championship in play.

When trying to decide on my pool pick for this race I read an interview with Perez where he
essentially said that he'd cracked it, he'd worked out how to get the best out of the car and was
looking forward to the race and the rest of the season.

As you hear things like this a lot on F1 I didn't let it influence my pool pick. However after
watching this performance I'm inclined to believe him and think that it's highly likely that RBR
will be WCC this year. (Especially after seeing how bad Bottas is getting lately.)
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

On 7/06/2021 6:20 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
> On 7/06/2021 5:00 pm, XYXPDQ wrote:
>> So was Baku Perez's statement race?
>>
>> He seemed to struggle a lot with the car in the earlier races but this whole weekend everything
>> just clicked along.
>>
>> If this is an indication of the rest of the season it will really put the pressure on Merc.  They
>> won't be able to do the undercut/overcut dance with impunity.  And with Bottas being so
>> inconsistent I think it puts both the drivers and constructors championship in play.
>
> When trying to decide on my pool pick for this race I read an interview with Perez where he
> essentially said that he'd cracked it, he'd worked out how to get the best out of the car and was
> looking forward to the race and the rest of the season.
>
> As you hear things like this a lot on F1 I didn't let it influence my pool pick. However after
> watching this performance I'm inclined to believe him and think that it's highly likely that RBR
> will be WCC this year. (Especially after seeing how bad Bottas is getting lately.)

Will Toto pull a Marko and put Russell in Bottas' seat mid-season? He'd have to break Williams'
contract with Russell somehow though I dare say swapping for Bottas would go some way towards it
(if Bottas agreed of course).

Just thinking and writing.... It'd be a shame for Mercedes to break their record-breaking WCC
winning streak.

I didn't hear much if anything about the flexi-wing thing this weekend. I guess if RBR /were/ still
using them and now have to change that could swing things back Merc's way somewhat. Especially if
that's what Perez Just came to grips with.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

On 2021-06-07 3:41 a.m., ~misfit~ wrote:
> On 7/06/2021 6:20 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>> On 7/06/2021 5:00 pm, XYXPDQ wrote:
>>> So was Baku Perez's statement race?
>>>
>>> He seemed to struggle a lot with the car in the earlier races but
>>> this whole weekend everything just clicked along.
>>>
>>> If this is an indication of the rest of the season it will really put
>>> the pressure on Merc.  They won't be able to do the undercut/overcut
>>> dance with impunity.  And with Bottas being so inconsistent I think
>>> it puts both the drivers and constructors championship in play.
>>
>> When trying to decide on my pool pick for this race I read an
>> interview with Perez where he essentially said that he'd cracked it,
>> he'd worked out how to get the best out of the car and was looking
>> forward to the race and the rest of the season.
>>
>> As you hear things like this a lot on F1 I didn't let it influence my
>> pool pick. However after watching this performance I'm inclined to
>> believe him and think that it's highly likely that RBR will be WCC
>> this year. (Especially after seeing how bad Bottas is getting lately.)
>
> Will Toto pull a Marko and put Russell in Bottas' seat mid-season? He'd
> have to break Williams' contract with Russell somehow though I dare say
> swapping for Bottas would go some way towards it (if Bottas agreed of
> course).
>
> Just thinking and writing.... It'd be a shame for Mercedes to break
> their record-breaking WCC winning streak.
>
> I didn't hear much if anything about the flexi-wing thing this weekend.
> I guess if RBR /were/ still using them and now have to change that could
> swing things back Merc's way somewhat. Especially if that's what Perez
> Just came to grips with.

You guys get that Mercedes was struggling to find the right setup, right?

And that Hamilton and Bottas ended up running DIFFERENT configurations...

....right?

Bottas's alleged "inconsistency" has given him 1 pole position, 2
fastest laps, 3 third places, two retirements, and this latest one where
the car was clearly not right.

His retirements were from a crash with Russell that certainly wasn't his
fault (the driver ahead gets to drive the racing line), and from a
stripped wheel nut, so you're going to have a hard time finding anything
about Bottas's driving that led to that.

I don't understand how people can simultaneously believe that Hamilton
is the GOAT because of the championships he's won with Mercedes while
not accepting the fact that Bottas pretty close to as fast as Hamilton.

Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:

> I don't understand how people can simultaneously believe that Hamilton
> is the GOAT because of the championships he's won with Mercedes while
> not accepting the fact that Bottas pretty close to as fast as Hamilton.
>
Pretty much as *fast* as Hamilton, yes (like several other drivers if they
were in a Mercedes) but in the race Lewis has that “little bit of magic”,
that only the greatest F1 drivers have. I think that Max will prove to be
the same.

--
Sir Tim

On 2021-06-07 11:08 a.m., Sir Tim wrote:
> Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>
>> I don't understand how people can simultaneously believe that Hamilton
>> is the GOAT because of the championships he's won with Mercedes while
>> not accepting the fact that Bottas pretty close to as fast as Hamilton.
>>
> Pretty much as *fast* as Hamilton, yes (like several other drivers if they
> were in a Mercedes) but in the race Lewis has that “little bit of magic”,
> that only the greatest F1 drivers have. I think that Max will prove to be
> the same.
>

I do think that Hamilton is better than Bottas...

....but the biggest "magic" he's got has been picking the right team to
drive for.

Or is George Russell one of the "greats" as well?

> Will Toto pull a Marko and put Russell in Bottas' seat mid-season? He'd have to break Williams'
> contract with Russell somehow though I dare say swapping for Bottas would go some way towards it
> (if Bottas agreed of course).
>

I thought Norris had a shot at Bottas's ride until he signed the new contract.

Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
> On 2021-06-07 11:08 a.m., Sir Tim wrote:
>> Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't understand how people can simultaneously believe that Hamilton
>>> is the GOAT because of the championships he's won with Mercedes while
>>> not accepting the fact that Bottas pretty close to as fast as Hamilton.
>>>
>> Pretty much as *fast* as Hamilton, yes (like several other drivers if they
>> were in a Mercedes) but in the race Lewis has that “little bit of magic”,
>> that only the greatest F1 drivers have. I think that Max will prove to be
>> the same.
>>
>
> I do think that Hamilton is better than Bottas...
>
> ...but the biggest "magic" he's got has been picking the right team to
> drive for.
>
> Or is George Russell one of the "greats" as well?
>

Remains to be seen. It takes a lot more than one good drive, or even one
good season.

--
Sir Tim

On 6/7/21 8:08 PM, Sir Tim wrote:
> Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>
>> I don't understand how people can simultaneously believe that Hamilton
>> is the GOAT because of the championships he's won with Mercedes while
>> not accepting the fact that Bottas pretty close to as fast as Hamilton.
>>
> Pretty much as *fast* as Hamilton, yes (like several other drivers if they
> were in a Mercedes) but in the race Lewis has that “little bit of magic”,
> that only the greatest F1 drivers have. I think that Max will prove to be
> the same.
>
Yes I will never forget the magic when he -out of the blue- found 50
more horses somewhere and 2 tenths ON THE STRAIGHT.
Real magic!

--
“The further a society drift from the truth,
the more it will hate those who speak it”

George Orwell

On 2021-06-07 2:34 p.m., Edmund wrote:
> On 6/7/21 8:08 PM, Sir Tim wrote:
>> Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't understand how people can simultaneously believe that Hamilton
>>> is the GOAT because of the championships he's won with Mercedes while
>>> not accepting the fact that Bottas pretty close to as fast as Hamilton.
>>>
>> Pretty much as *fast* as Hamilton, yes (like several other drivers if
>> they
>> were in a Mercedes) but in the race Lewis has that “little bit of magic”,
>> that only the greatest F1 drivers have. I think that Max will prove to be
>> the same.
>>
> Yes I will never forget the magic when he -out of the blue- found 50
> more horses somewhere and 2 tenths ON THE STRAIGHT.
> Real magic!
>

You're a bigot... ...we all get it.

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 3:43:20 PM UTC-6, Alan Baker wrote:

> You're a bigot... ...we all get it.

Who is we?
Speak for your own pathetic self.
You trolling piece of shit.

On 7/06/2021 8:41 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
> On 7/06/2021 6:20 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>> On 7/06/2021 5:00 pm, XYXPDQ wrote:
>>> So was Baku Perez's statement race?
>>>
>>> He seemed to struggle a lot with the car in the earlier races but
>>> this whole weekend everything just clicked along.
>>>
>>> If this is an indication of the rest of the season it will really put
>>> the pressure on Merc.  They won't be able to do the undercut/overcut
>>> dance with impunity.  And with Bottas being so inconsistent I think
>>> it puts both the drivers and constructors championship in play.
>>
>> When trying to decide on my pool pick for this race I read an
>> interview with Perez where he essentially said that he'd cracked it,
>> he'd worked out how to get the best out of the car and was looking
>> forward to the race and the rest of the season.
>>
>> As you hear things like this a lot on F1 I didn't let it influence my
>> pool pick. However after watching this performance I'm inclined to
>> believe him and think that it's highly likely that RBR will be WCC
>> this year. (Especially after seeing how bad Bottas is getting lately.)
>
> Will Toto pull a Marko and put Russell in Bottas' seat mid-season? He'd
> have to break Williams' contract with Russell somehow though I dare say
> swapping for Bottas would go some way towards it (if Bottas agreed of
> course).
>
> Just thinking and writing.... It'd be a shame for Mercedes to break
> their record-breaking WCC winning streak.
>
> I didn't hear much if anything about the flexi-wing thing this weekend.
> I guess if RBR /were/ still using them and now have to change that could
> swing things back Merc's way somewhat. Especially if that's what Perez
> Just came to grips with.

Interestingly (to me at least) Joe Saward reckons that, had not Alonso
gone to Alpine, Bottas would have.

On 9/06/2021 12:15 am, keithr0 wrote:
> On 7/06/2021 8:41 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>> On 7/06/2021 6:20 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>> On 7/06/2021 5:00 pm, XYXPDQ wrote:
>>>> So was Baku Perez's statement race?
>>>>
>>>> He seemed to struggle a lot with the car in the earlier races but this whole weekend everything
>>>> just clicked along.
>>>>
>>>> If this is an indication of the rest of the season it will really put the pressure on Merc.
>>>> They won't be able to do the undercut/overcut dance with impunity.  And with Bottas being so
>>>> inconsistent I think it puts both the drivers and constructors championship in play.
>>>
>>> When trying to decide on my pool pick for this race I read an interview with Perez where he
>>> essentially said that he'd cracked it, he'd worked out how to get the best out of the car and
>>> was looking forward to the race and the rest of the season.
>>>
>>> As you hear things like this a lot on F1 I didn't let it influence my pool pick. However after
>>> watching this performance I'm inclined to believe him and think that it's highly likely that RBR
>>> will be WCC this year. (Especially after seeing how bad Bottas is getting lately.)
>>
>> Will Toto pull a Marko and put Russell in Bottas' seat mid-season? He'd have to break Williams'
>> contract with Russell somehow though I dare say swapping for Bottas would go some way towards it
>> (if Bottas agreed of course).
>>
>> Just thinking and writing.... It'd be a shame for Mercedes to break their record-breaking WCC
>> winning streak.
>>
>> I didn't hear much if anything about the flexi-wing thing this weekend. I guess if RBR /were/
>> still using them and now have to change that could swing things back Merc's way somewhat.
>> Especially if that's what Perez Just came to grips with.
>
> Interestingly (to me at least) Joe Saward reckons that, had not Alonso gone to Alpine, Bottas would
> have.

Interesting - though I've caught Saward talking out of his arse more than once (as thing progress
and his predictions / inside knowledge proved to be wrong). I tend not to read his stuff any more.

That said I've had a feeling that Bottas isn't long for Mercedes for a while now and it makes sense
that he'd want to leave on his own terms. As he proved at Williams he has a lot to offer a
mid-field team and can wring the last bit out of a car that's less than front-running.

IMO though he just doesn't have that last ounce of feel / talent / skill that it takes to get the
ultimate pace out of a cutting edge car. There are only maybe 5 or 6 drivers in F1 that DO have
that level of skill (or are at least closer to it than Bottas is).
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

On 2021-06-08 7:03 a.m., ~misfit~ wrote:
> On 9/06/2021 12:15 am, keithr0 wrote:
>> On 7/06/2021 8:41 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>> On 7/06/2021 6:20 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>>> On 7/06/2021 5:00 pm, XYXPDQ wrote:
>>>>> So was Baku Perez's statement race?
>>>>>
>>>>> He seemed to struggle a lot with the car in the earlier races but
>>>>> this whole weekend everything just clicked along.
>>>>>
>>>>> If this is an indication of the rest of the season it will really
>>>>> put the pressure on Merc. They won't be able to do the
>>>>> undercut/overcut dance with impunity.  And with Bottas being so
>>>>> inconsistent I think it puts both the drivers and constructors
>>>>> championship in play.
>>>>
>>>> When trying to decide on my pool pick for this race I read an
>>>> interview with Perez where he essentially said that he'd cracked it,
>>>> he'd worked out how to get the best out of the car and was looking
>>>> forward to the race and the rest of the season.
>>>>
>>>> As you hear things like this a lot on F1 I didn't let it influence
>>>> my pool pick. However after watching this performance I'm inclined
>>>> to believe him and think that it's highly likely that RBR will be
>>>> WCC this year. (Especially after seeing how bad Bottas is getting
>>>> lately.)
>>>
>>> Will Toto pull a Marko and put Russell in Bottas' seat mid-season?
>>> He'd have to break Williams' contract with Russell somehow though I
>>> dare say swapping for Bottas would go some way towards it (if Bottas
>>> agreed of course).
>>>
>>> Just thinking and writing.... It'd be a shame for Mercedes to break
>>> their record-breaking WCC winning streak.
>>>
>>> I didn't hear much if anything about the flexi-wing thing this
>>> weekend. I guess if RBR /were/ still using them and now have to
>>> change that could swing things back Merc's way somewhat. Especially
>>> if that's what Perez Just came to grips with.
>>
>> Interestingly (to me at least) Joe Saward reckons that, had not Alonso
>> gone to Alpine, Bottas would have.
>
> Interesting - though I've caught Saward talking out of his arse more
> than once (as thing progress and his predictions / inside knowledge
> proved to be wrong). I tend not to read his stuff any more.
>
> That said I've had a feeling that Bottas isn't long for Mercedes for a
> while now and it makes sense that he'd want to leave on his own terms.
> As he proved at Williams he has a lot to offer a mid-field team and can
> wring the last bit out of a car that's less than front-running.
>
> IMO though he just doesn't have that last ounce of feel / talent / skill
> that it takes to get the ultimate pace out of a cutting edge car. There
> are only maybe 5 or 6 drivers in F1 that DO have that level of skill (or
> are at least closer to it than Bottas is).

So... ...let me see if I have your argument correct:

Bottas is a second-rank driver...

....and can't get the "ultimate pace" out of a car (why would you imagine
"cutting edge" cars—if they even exist—are special in this regard, BTW?)...

....but somehow...

....against the driver you all want to anoint as the "Greatest Of All
Time"...

....somehow he still takes pole positions.

How is that supposed to work?

Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
> On 2021-06-08 7:03 a.m., ~misfit~ wrote:
>> On 9/06/2021 12:15 am, keithr0 wrote:
>>> On 7/06/2021 8:41 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>>> On 7/06/2021 6:20 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>>>> On 7/06/2021 5:00 pm, XYXPDQ wrote:
>>>>>> So was Baku Perez's statement race?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> He seemed to struggle a lot with the car in the earlier races but
>>>>>> this whole weekend everything just clicked along.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If this is an indication of the rest of the season it will really
>>>>>> put the pressure on Merc. They won't be able to do the
>>>>>> undercut/overcut dance with impunity.  And with Bottas being so
>>>>>> inconsistent I think it puts both the drivers and constructors
>>>>>> championship in play.
>>>>>
>>>>> When trying to decide on my pool pick for this race I read an
>>>>> interview with Perez where he essentially said that he'd cracked it,
>>>>> he'd worked out how to get the best out of the car and was looking
>>>>> forward to the race and the rest of the season.
>>>>>
>>>>> As you hear things like this a lot on F1 I didn't let it influence
>>>>> my pool pick. However after watching this performance I'm inclined
>>>>> to believe him and think that it's highly likely that RBR will be
>>>>> WCC this year. (Especially after seeing how bad Bottas is getting
>>>>> lately.)
>>>>
>>>> Will Toto pull a Marko and put Russell in Bottas' seat mid-season?
>>>> He'd have to break Williams' contract with Russell somehow though I
>>>> dare say swapping for Bottas would go some way towards it (if Bottas
>>>> agreed of course).
>>>>
>>>> Just thinking and writing.... It'd be a shame for Mercedes to break
>>>> their record-breaking WCC winning streak.
>>>>
>>>> I didn't hear much if anything about the flexi-wing thing this
>>>> weekend. I guess if RBR /were/ still using them and now have to
>>>> change that could swing things back Merc's way somewhat. Especially
>>>> if that's what Perez Just came to grips with.
>>>
>>> Interestingly (to me at least) Joe Saward reckons that, had not Alonso
>>> gone to Alpine, Bottas would have.
>>
>> Interesting - though I've caught Saward talking out of his arse more
>> than once (as thing progress and his predictions / inside knowledge
>> proved to be wrong). I tend not to read his stuff any more.
>>
>> That said I've had a feeling that Bottas isn't long for Mercedes for a
>> while now and it makes sense that he'd want to leave on his own terms.
>> As he proved at Williams he has a lot to offer a mid-field team and can
>> wring the last bit out of a car that's less than front-running.
>>
>> IMO though he just doesn't have that last ounce of feel / talent / skill
>> that it takes to get the ultimate pace out of a cutting edge car. There
>> are only maybe 5 or 6 drivers in F1 that DO have that level of skill (or
>> are at least closer to it than Bottas is).
>
> So... ...let me see if I have your argument correct:
>
> Bottas is a second-rank driver...
>
> ...and can't get the "ultimate pace" out of a car (why would you imagine
> "cutting edge" cars—if they even exist—are special in this regard, BTW?)...
>
> ...but somehow...
>
> ...against the driver you all want to anoint as the "Greatest Of All
> Time"...
>
> ...somehow he still takes pole positions.
>
> How is that supposed to work?
>

Assuming that you are referring to Lewis Hamilton I think that most of us
here agree that Bottas, and probably several other drivers, can be as quick
or quicker than him over a single lap. But,as you well know, to be a
champion requires much, much more than that. IMO Bottas doesn’t have the
necessary extra skills (or abilities if you will) to win the WDC, certainly
not more than once.

Trying to designate a driver as the “greatest of all time” is a pointless
exercise and largely subjective anyway. All one can do is to say that
certain drivers are “amongst the greatest of all time” or, possibly, “the
best of their generation”.

--
Sir Tim

On 2021-06-08 9:39 a.m., Sir Tim wrote:
> Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>> On 2021-06-08 7:03 a.m., ~misfit~ wrote:
>>> On 9/06/2021 12:15 am, keithr0 wrote:
>>>> On 7/06/2021 8:41 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>>>> On 7/06/2021 6:20 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/06/2021 5:00 pm, XYXPDQ wrote:
>>>>>>> So was Baku Perez's statement race?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He seemed to struggle a lot with the car in the earlier races but
>>>>>>> this whole weekend everything just clicked along.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If this is an indication of the rest of the season it will really
>>>>>>> put the pressure on Merc. They won't be able to do the
>>>>>>> undercut/overcut dance with impunity.  And with Bottas being so
>>>>>>> inconsistent I think it puts both the drivers and constructors
>>>>>>> championship in play.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When trying to decide on my pool pick for this race I read an
>>>>>> interview with Perez where he essentially said that he'd cracked it,
>>>>>> he'd worked out how to get the best out of the car and was looking
>>>>>> forward to the race and the rest of the season.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As you hear things like this a lot on F1 I didn't let it influence
>>>>>> my pool pick. However after watching this performance I'm inclined
>>>>>> to believe him and think that it's highly likely that RBR will be
>>>>>> WCC this year. (Especially after seeing how bad Bottas is getting
>>>>>> lately.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Will Toto pull a Marko and put Russell in Bottas' seat mid-season?
>>>>> He'd have to break Williams' contract with Russell somehow though I
>>>>> dare say swapping for Bottas would go some way towards it (if Bottas
>>>>> agreed of course).
>>>>>
>>>>> Just thinking and writing.... It'd be a shame for Mercedes to break
>>>>> their record-breaking WCC winning streak.
>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't hear much if anything about the flexi-wing thing this
>>>>> weekend. I guess if RBR /were/ still using them and now have to
>>>>> change that could swing things back Merc's way somewhat. Especially
>>>>> if that's what Perez Just came to grips with.
>>>>
>>>> Interestingly (to me at least) Joe Saward reckons that, had not Alonso
>>>> gone to Alpine, Bottas would have.
>>>
>>> Interesting - though I've caught Saward talking out of his arse more
>>> than once (as thing progress and his predictions / inside knowledge
>>> proved to be wrong). I tend not to read his stuff any more.
>>>
>>> That said I've had a feeling that Bottas isn't long for Mercedes for a
>>> while now and it makes sense that he'd want to leave on his own terms.
>>> As he proved at Williams he has a lot to offer a mid-field team and can
>>> wring the last bit out of a car that's less than front-running.
>>>
>>> IMO though he just doesn't have that last ounce of feel / talent / skill
>>> that it takes to get the ultimate pace out of a cutting edge car. There
>>> are only maybe 5 or 6 drivers in F1 that DO have that level of skill (or
>>> are at least closer to it than Bottas is).
>>
>> So... ...let me see if I have your argument correct:
>>
>> Bottas is a second-rank driver...
>>
>> ...and can't get the "ultimate pace" out of a car (why would you imagine
>> "cutting edge" cars—if they even exist—are special in this regard, BTW?)...
>>
>> ...but somehow...
>>
>> ...against the driver you all want to anoint as the "Greatest Of All
>> Time"...
>>
>> ...somehow he still takes pole positions.
>>
>> How is that supposed to work?
>>
>
> Assuming that you are referring to Lewis Hamilton I think that most of us
> here agree that Bottas, and probably several other drivers, can be as quick
> or quicker than him over a single lap. But,as you well know, to be a
> champion requires much, much more than that. IMO Bottas doesn’t have the
> necessary extra skills (or abilities if you will) to win the WDC, certainly
> not more than once.

I was addressing myself specifically to what was said:

'IMO though he just doesn't have that last ounce of feel / talent /
skill that it takes to get the ultimate pace out of a cutting edge car.'

What you just said disagrees with that and agrees with me.

And he is clearly the second driver at Mercedes so there are lots of
races that he would have won if not for that fact.

>
>
> Trying to designate a driver as the “greatest of all time” is a pointless
> exercise and largely subjective anyway. All one can do is to say that
> certain drivers are “amongst the greatest of all time” or, possibly, “the
> best of their generation”.

I'm not sure I agree.

There are certain drivers that other drivers acknowledge as being the
very, very best. Senna was one. Jim Clark another. I don't hear the same
opinions about Hamilton being voiced by his peers.

Is he among the very best out there today? Beyond a doubt. I think there
might be 3 or 4 others who could match him given the same car, but not more.

But it still remains that if Hamilton is among the very great, then so
is Bottas and so is Rosberg

Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
> On 2021-06-08 9:39 a.m., Sir Tim wrote:
>> Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>>> On 2021-06-08 7:03 a.m., ~misfit~ wrote:
>>>> On 9/06/2021 12:15 am, keithr0 wrote:
>>>>> On 7/06/2021 8:41 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/06/2021 6:20 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/06/2021 5:00 pm, XYXPDQ wrote:
>>>>>>>> So was Baku Perez's statement race?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> He seemed to struggle a lot with the car in the earlier races but
>>>>>>>> this whole weekend everything just clicked along.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If this is an indication of the rest of the season it will really
>>>>>>>> put the pressure on Merc. They won't be able to do the
>>>>>>>> undercut/overcut dance with impunity.  And with Bottas being so
>>>>>>>> inconsistent I think it puts both the drivers and constructors
>>>>>>>> championship in play.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> When trying to decide on my pool pick for this race I read an
>>>>>>> interview with Perez where he essentially said that he'd cracked it,
>>>>>>> he'd worked out how to get the best out of the car and was looking
>>>>>>> forward to the race and the rest of the season.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As you hear things like this a lot on F1 I didn't let it influence
>>>>>>> my pool pick. However after watching this performance I'm inclined
>>>>>>> to believe him and think that it's highly likely that RBR will be
>>>>>>> WCC this year. (Especially after seeing how bad Bottas is getting
>>>>>>> lately.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Will Toto pull a Marko and put Russell in Bottas' seat mid-season?
>>>>>> He'd have to break Williams' contract with Russell somehow though I
>>>>>> dare say swapping for Bottas would go some way towards it (if Bottas
>>>>>> agreed of course).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just thinking and writing.... It'd be a shame for Mercedes to break
>>>>>> their record-breaking WCC winning streak.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't hear much if anything about the flexi-wing thing this
>>>>>> weekend. I guess if RBR /were/ still using them and now have to
>>>>>> change that could swing things back Merc's way somewhat. Especially
>>>>>> if that's what Perez Just came to grips with.
>>>>>
>>>>> Interestingly (to me at least) Joe Saward reckons that, had not Alonso
>>>>> gone to Alpine, Bottas would have.
>>>>
>>>> Interesting - though I've caught Saward talking out of his arse more
>>>> than once (as thing progress and his predictions / inside knowledge
>>>> proved to be wrong). I tend not to read his stuff any more.
>>>>
>>>> That said I've had a feeling that Bottas isn't long for Mercedes for a
>>>> while now and it makes sense that he'd want to leave on his own terms.
>>>> As he proved at Williams he has a lot to offer a mid-field team and can
>>>> wring the last bit out of a car that's less than front-running.
>>>>
>>>> IMO though he just doesn't have that last ounce of feel / talent / skill
>>>> that it takes to get the ultimate pace out of a cutting edge car. There
>>>> are only maybe 5 or 6 drivers in F1 that DO have that level of skill (or
>>>> are at least closer to it than Bottas is).
>>>
>>> So... ...let me see if I have your argument correct:
>>>
>>> Bottas is a second-rank driver...
>>>
>>> ...and can't get the "ultimate pace" out of a car (why would you imagine
>>> "cutting edge" cars—if they even exist—are special in this regard, BTW?)...
>>>
>>> ...but somehow...
>>>
>>> ...against the driver you all want to anoint as the "Greatest Of All
>>> Time"...
>>>
>>> ...somehow he still takes pole positions.
>>>
>>> How is that supposed to work?
>>>
>>
>> Assuming that you are referring to Lewis Hamilton I think that most of us
>> here agree that Bottas, and probably several other drivers, can be as quick
>> or quicker than him over a single lap. But,as you well know, to be a
>> champion requires much, much more than that. IMO Bottas doesn’t have the
>> necessary extra skills (or abilities if you will) to win the WDC, certainly
>> not more than once.
>
> I was addressing myself specifically to what was said:
>
> 'IMO though he just doesn't have that last ounce of feel / talent /
> skill that it takes to get the ultimate pace out of a cutting edge car.'
>
> What you just said disagrees with that and agrees with me.
>
> And he is clearly the second driver at Mercedes so there are lots of
> races that he would have won if not for that fact.
>
>>
>>
>> Trying to designate a driver as the “greatest of all time” is a pointless
>> exercise and largely subjective anyway. All one can do is to say that
>> certain drivers are “amongst the greatest of all time” or, possibly, “the
>> best of their generation”.
>
> I'm not sure I agree.
>
> There are certain drivers that other drivers acknowledge as being the
> very, very best. Senna was one. Jim Clark another. I don't hear the same
> opinions about Hamilton being voiced by his peers.

As I remember it, and my memories go back to the 1950s, the only drivers to
be revered by their peers were Fangio, Moss and Clark. Senna was roundly
disliked by the older drivers because he showed them zero respect and by
the younger ones because of his intimidatory tactics on track. At that time
I’m sure that most of his fellow drivers would have subscribed to the
dictum: “Senna’s the quickest but Prost is the best”.
>
> Is he among the very best out there today? Beyond a doubt. I think there
> might be 3 or 4 others who could match him given the same car, but not more.
>
> But it still remains that if Hamilton is among the very great, then so
> is Bottas and so is Rosberg
>
On that we will have to agree to disagree. I’m certainly not prepared to
get dragged into one of your endless tit-for-tat exchanges.

--
Sir Tim

On 2021-06-08 4:39 p.m., Sir Tim wrote:
> Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>> On 2021-06-08 9:39 a.m., Sir Tim wrote:
>>> Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>>>> On 2021-06-08 7:03 a.m., ~misfit~ wrote:
>>>>> On 9/06/2021 12:15 am, keithr0 wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/06/2021 8:41 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>>>>>> On 7/06/2021 6:20 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/06/2021 5:00 pm, XYXPDQ wrote:
>>>>>>>>> So was Baku Perez's statement race?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He seemed to struggle a lot with the car in the earlier races but
>>>>>>>>> this whole weekend everything just clicked along.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If this is an indication of the rest of the season it will really
>>>>>>>>> put the pressure on Merc. They won't be able to do the
>>>>>>>>> undercut/overcut dance with impunity.  And with Bottas being so
>>>>>>>>> inconsistent I think it puts both the drivers and constructors
>>>>>>>>> championship in play.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> When trying to decide on my pool pick for this race I read an
>>>>>>>> interview with Perez where he essentially said that he'd cracked it,
>>>>>>>> he'd worked out how to get the best out of the car and was looking
>>>>>>>> forward to the race and the rest of the season.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As you hear things like this a lot on F1 I didn't let it influence
>>>>>>>> my pool pick. However after watching this performance I'm inclined
>>>>>>>> to believe him and think that it's highly likely that RBR will be
>>>>>>>> WCC this year. (Especially after seeing how bad Bottas is getting
>>>>>>>> lately.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Will Toto pull a Marko and put Russell in Bottas' seat mid-season?
>>>>>>> He'd have to break Williams' contract with Russell somehow though I
>>>>>>> dare say swapping for Bottas would go some way towards it (if Bottas
>>>>>>> agreed of course).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just thinking and writing.... It'd be a shame for Mercedes to break
>>>>>>> their record-breaking WCC winning streak.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I didn't hear much if anything about the flexi-wing thing this
>>>>>>> weekend. I guess if RBR /were/ still using them and now have to
>>>>>>> change that could swing things back Merc's way somewhat. Especially
>>>>>>> if that's what Perez Just came to grips with.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interestingly (to me at least) Joe Saward reckons that, had not Alonso
>>>>>> gone to Alpine, Bottas would have.
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting - though I've caught Saward talking out of his arse more
>>>>> than once (as thing progress and his predictions / inside knowledge
>>>>> proved to be wrong). I tend not to read his stuff any more.
>>>>>
>>>>> That said I've had a feeling that Bottas isn't long for Mercedes for a
>>>>> while now and it makes sense that he'd want to leave on his own terms.
>>>>> As he proved at Williams he has a lot to offer a mid-field team and can
>>>>> wring the last bit out of a car that's less than front-running.
>>>>>
>>>>> IMO though he just doesn't have that last ounce of feel / talent / skill
>>>>> that it takes to get the ultimate pace out of a cutting edge car. There
>>>>> are only maybe 5 or 6 drivers in F1 that DO have that level of skill (or
>>>>> are at least closer to it than Bottas is).
>>>>
>>>> So... ...let me see if I have your argument correct:
>>>>
>>>> Bottas is a second-rank driver...
>>>>
>>>> ...and can't get the "ultimate pace" out of a car (why would you imagine
>>>> "cutting edge" cars—if they even exist—are special in this regard, BTW?)...
>>>>
>>>> ...but somehow...
>>>>
>>>> ...against the driver you all want to anoint as the "Greatest Of All
>>>> Time"...
>>>>
>>>> ...somehow he still takes pole positions.
>>>>
>>>> How is that supposed to work?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Assuming that you are referring to Lewis Hamilton I think that most of us
>>> here agree that Bottas, and probably several other drivers, can be as quick
>>> or quicker than him over a single lap. But,as you well know, to be a
>>> champion requires much, much more than that. IMO Bottas doesn’t have the
>>> necessary extra skills (or abilities if you will) to win the WDC, certainly
>>> not more than once.
>>
>> I was addressing myself specifically to what was said:
>>
>> 'IMO though he just doesn't have that last ounce of feel / talent /
>> skill that it takes to get the ultimate pace out of a cutting edge car.'
>>
>> What you just said disagrees with that and agrees with me.
>>
>> And he is clearly the second driver at Mercedes so there are lots of
>> races that he would have won if not for that fact.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Trying to designate a driver as the “greatest of all time” is a pointless
>>> exercise and largely subjective anyway. All one can do is to say that
>>> certain drivers are “amongst the greatest of all time” or, possibly, “the
>>> best of their generation”.
>>
>> I'm not sure I agree.
>>
>> There are certain drivers that other drivers acknowledge as being the
>> very, very best. Senna was one. Jim Clark another. I don't hear the same
>> opinions about Hamilton being voiced by his peers.
>
> As I remember it, and my memories go back to the 1950s, the only drivers to
> be revered by their peers were Fangio, Moss and Clark. Senna was roundly
> disliked by the older drivers because he showed them zero respect and by
> the younger ones because of his intimidatory tactics on track. At that time
> I’m sure that most of his fellow drivers would have subscribed to the
> dictum: “Senna’s the quickest but Prost is the best”.

I don't think so.

Disliking a driver has very little to do with whether or not other
drivers recognize your ability.

>>
>> Is he among the very best out there today? Beyond a doubt. I think there
>> might be 3 or 4 others who could match him given the same car, but not more.
>>
>> But it still remains that if Hamilton is among the very great, then so
>> is Bottas and so is Rosberg
>>
> On that we will have to agree to disagree. I’m certainly not prepared to
> get dragged into one of your endless tit-for-tat exchanges.

Sure. That's fine.

On 9/06/2021 4:39 am, Sir Tim wrote:
> Alan Baker <notonyourlife@no.no.no.no> wrote:
>> On 2021-06-08 7:03 a.m., ~misfit~ wrote:
>>> On 9/06/2021 12:15 am, keithr0 wrote:
>>>> On 7/06/2021 8:41 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>>>> On 7/06/2021 6:20 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/06/2021 5:00 pm, XYXPDQ wrote:
>>>>>>> So was Baku Perez's statement race?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He seemed to struggle a lot with the car in the earlier races but
>>>>>>> this whole weekend everything just clicked along.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If this is an indication of the rest of the season it will really
>>>>>>> put the pressure on Merc. They won't be able to do the
>>>>>>> undercut/overcut dance with impunity.  And with Bottas being so
>>>>>>> inconsistent I think it puts both the drivers and constructors
>>>>>>> championship in play.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When trying to decide on my pool pick for this race I read an
>>>>>> interview with Perez where he essentially said that he'd cracked it,
>>>>>> he'd worked out how to get the best out of the car and was looking
>>>>>> forward to the race and the rest of the season.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As you hear things like this a lot on F1 I didn't let it influence
>>>>>> my pool pick. However after watching this performance I'm inclined
>>>>>> to believe him and think that it's highly likely that RBR will be
>>>>>> WCC this year. (Especially after seeing how bad Bottas is getting
>>>>>> lately.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Will Toto pull a Marko and put Russell in Bottas' seat mid-season?
>>>>> He'd have to break Williams' contract with Russell somehow though I
>>>>> dare say swapping for Bottas would go some way towards it (if Bottas
>>>>> agreed of course).
>>>>>
>>>>> Just thinking and writing.... It'd be a shame for Mercedes to break
>>>>> their record-breaking WCC winning streak.
>>>>>
>>>>> I didn't hear much if anything about the flexi-wing thing this
>>>>> weekend. I guess if RBR /were/ still using them and now have to
>>>>> change that could swing things back Merc's way somewhat. Especially
>>>>> if that's what Perez Just came to grips with.
>>>>
>>>> Interestingly (to me at least) Joe Saward reckons that, had not Alonso
>>>> gone to Alpine, Bottas would have.
>>>
>>> Interesting - though I've caught Saward talking out of his arse more
>>> than once (as thing progress and his predictions / inside knowledge
>>> proved to be wrong). I tend not to read his stuff any more.
>>>
>>> That said I've had a feeling that Bottas isn't long for Mercedes for a
>>> while now and it makes sense that he'd want to leave on his own terms.
>>> As he proved at Williams he has a lot to offer a mid-field team and can
>>> wring the last bit out of a car that's less than front-running.
>>>
>>> IMO though he just doesn't have that last ounce of feel / talent / skill
>>> that it takes to get the ultimate pace out of a cutting edge car. There
>>> are only maybe 5 or 6 drivers in F1 that DO have that level of skill (or
>>> are at least closer to it than Bottas is).
>>
>> So... ...let me see if I have your argument correct:
>>
>> Bottas is a second-rank driver...
>>
>> ...and can't get the "ultimate pace" out of a car (why would you imagine
>> "cutting edge" cars—if they even exist—are special in this regard, BTW?)...
>>
>> ...but somehow...
>>
>> ...against the driver you all want to anoint as the "Greatest Of All
>> Time"...
>>
>> ...somehow he still takes pole positions.
>>
>> How is that supposed to work?
>>
>
> Assuming that you are referring to Lewis Hamilton I think that most of us
> here agree that Bottas, and probably several other drivers, can be as quick
> or quicker than him over a single lap. But,as you well know, to be a
> champion requires much, much more than that. IMO Bottas doesn’t have the
> necessary extra skills (or abilities if you will) to win the WDC, certainly > not more than once.

Baker sure loves to disagree. Yes Bottas can sometimes beat Hamilton over a single qualifying lap
when there are few other cars on the track to scare him. However he doesn't have the grit (or
endurance) to fight it out in races. If Bottas doesn't start at or very close to the front he's a
goneburger. If he starts say 4th or worse the only way he (usually) gains positions is by pitstops
or those in front retiring.

Conversely other drivers who I think have what it takes will quickly cut through the pack if they
have the car to do it. Hamilton, Norris, Russell, Verstappen et al aren't afraid of an on-track
overtake the way Bottas is. Also they tend to keep it going right to the end of the race ("last-lap
Lando" for instance) whereas Bottas seems to fade if he's not at the pointy end at about half distance.

It's about hunger, confidence and psychological stamina and it's those areas where I think Bottas
is lacking - unless he's in a car that's not expected to do as well, then, with less pressure on
him he can do impressive things. At this level it's not just about physical skills it's also mental
toughness and self-belief. I think those traits are largely innate and can't be instilled in a
person (though they can be eroded). Also a give-away is the drivers who talk about these things are
usually the ones who lack them and are paying shrinks to try to turn it around. i.e. "Bottas 2.0".

> Trying to designate a driver as the “greatest of all time” is a pointless
> exercise and largely subjective anyway. All one can do is to say that
> certain drivers are “amongst the greatest of all time” or, possibly, “the
> best of their generation”.

Yeah most of the talk in this group about the 'GOAT' is from Baker putting words into the mouths of
others. He does love a strawman and invoking 'them' and 'you all'.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

On 9/06/2021 9:53 am, Alan Baker wrote:
> On 2021-06-08 9:39 a.m., Sir Tim wrote:
>
>> Trying to designate a driver as the “greatest of all time” is a pointless
>> exercise and largely subjective anyway. All one can do is to say that
>> certain drivers are “amongst the greatest of all time” or, possibly, “the
>> best of their generation”.
>
> I'm not sure I agree.
>
> There are certain drivers that other drivers acknowledge as being the
> very, very best. Senna was one. Jim Clark another. I don't hear the same
> opinions about Hamilton being voiced by his peers.
>
> Is he among the very best out there today? Beyond a doubt. I think there
> might be 3 or 4 others who could match him given the same car, but not
> more.
>
> But it still remains that if Hamilton is among the very great, then so
> is Bottas and so is Rosberg

If winning the odd race, or one Championship in the case of Rosberg
(helped by lots of bad 'luck' of his teammate) is the criteria.

It isn't.

geoff.

On 2021-06-08 8:55 p.m., geoff wrote:
> On 9/06/2021 9:53 am, Alan Baker wrote:
>> On 2021-06-08 9:39 a.m., Sir Tim wrote:
>>
>>> Trying to designate a driver as the “greatest of all time” is a
>>> pointless
>>> exercise and largely subjective anyway. All one can do is to say that
>>> certain drivers are “amongst the greatest of all time” or, possibly,
>>> “the
>>> best of their generation”.
>>
>> I'm not sure I agree.
>>
>> There are certain drivers that other drivers acknowledge as being the
>> very, very best. Senna was one. Jim Clark another. I don't hear the
>> same opinions about Hamilton being voiced by his peers.
>>
>> Is he among the very best out there today? Beyond a doubt. I think
>> there might be 3 or 4 others who could match him given the same car,
>> but not more.
>>
>> But it still remains that if Hamilton is among the very great, then so
>> is Bottas and so is Rosberg
>
> If winning the odd race, or one Championship in the case of Rosberg
> (helped by lots of bad 'luck' of his teammate) is the criteria.

Wrong. Because except for the presence of Hamilton as the number one
driver, both Rosberg and Bottas would have won many more races and
championships.

>
> It isn't.

geoff <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:
> On 9/06/2021 9:53 am, Alan Baker wrote:
>> On 2021-06-08 9:39 a.m., Sir Tim wrote:
>>
>>> Trying to designate a driver as the “greatest of all time” is a pointless
>>> exercise and largely subjective anyway. All one can do is to say that
>>> certain drivers are “amongst the greatest of all time” or, possibly, “the
>>> best of their generation”.
>>
>> I'm not sure I agree.
>>
>> There are certain drivers that other drivers acknowledge as being the
>> very, very best. Senna was one. Jim Clark another. I don't hear the same
>> opinions about Hamilton being voiced by his peers.
>>
>> Is he among the very best out there today? Beyond a doubt. I think there
>> might be 3 or 4 others who could match him given the same car, but not
>> more.
>>
>> But it still remains that if Hamilton is among the very great, then so
>> is Bottas and so is Rosberg
>
> If winning the odd race, or one Championship in the case of Rosberg
> (helped by lots of bad 'luck' of his teammate) is the criteria.
>
> It isn't.
>
+1

--
Sir Tim

On 2021-06-08 10:55 p.m., Sir Tim wrote:
> geoff <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:
>> On 9/06/2021 9:53 am, Alan Baker wrote:
>>> On 2021-06-08 9:39 a.m., Sir Tim wrote:
>>>
>>>> Trying to designate a driver as the “greatest of all time” is a pointless
>>>> exercise and largely subjective anyway. All one can do is to say that
>>>> certain drivers are “amongst the greatest of all time” or, possibly, “the
>>>> best of their generation”.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure I agree.
>>>
>>> There are certain drivers that other drivers acknowledge as being the
>>> very, very best. Senna was one. Jim Clark another. I don't hear the same
>>> opinions about Hamilton being voiced by his peers.
>>>
>>> Is he among the very best out there today? Beyond a doubt. I think there
>>> might be 3 or 4 others who could match him given the same car, but not
>>> more.
>>>
>>> But it still remains that if Hamilton is among the very great, then so
>>> is Bottas and so is Rosberg
>>
>> If winning the odd race, or one Championship in the case of Rosberg
>> (helped by lots of bad 'luck' of his teammate) is the criteria.
>>
>> It isn't.
>>
> +1
>

Except you never account for the fact that Hamilton was the number 1
driver on the team, and F1 teams almost always give preference to their
number 1.

On 10/06/2021 3:46 am, Alan Baker wrote:
> On 2021-06-08 10:55 p.m., Sir Tim wrote:
>> geoff <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:
>>> On 9/06/2021 9:53 am, Alan Baker wrote:
>>>> On 2021-06-08 9:39 a.m., Sir Tim wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Trying to designate a driver as the “greatest of all time” is a
>>>>> pointless
>>>>> exercise and largely subjective anyway. All one can do is to say that
>>>>> certain drivers are “amongst the greatest of all time” or,
>>>>> possibly, “the
>>>>> best of their generation”.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure I agree.
>>>>
>>>> There are certain drivers that other drivers acknowledge as being the
>>>> very, very best. Senna was one. Jim Clark another. I don't hear the
>>>> same
>>>> opinions about Hamilton being voiced by his peers.
>>>>
>>>> Is he among the very best out there today? Beyond a doubt. I think
>>>> there
>>>> might be 3 or 4 others who could match him given the same car, but not
>>>> more.
>>>>
>>>> But it still remains that if Hamilton is among the very great, then so
>>>> is Bottas and so is Rosberg
>>>
>>> If winning the odd race, or one Championship in the case of Rosberg
>>> (helped by lots of bad 'luck' of his teammate) is the criteria.
>>>
>>> It isn't.
>>>
>> +1
>>
>
> Except you never account for the fact that Hamilton was the number 1
> driver on the team, and F1 teams almost always give preference to their
> number 1.

And that is, it seems, your only justification ...

geoff

On 2021-06-09 6:04 p.m., geoff wrote:
> On 10/06/2021 3:46 am, Alan Baker wrote:
>> On 2021-06-08 10:55 p.m., Sir Tim wrote:
>>> geoff <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> wrote:
>>>> On 9/06/2021 9:53 am, Alan Baker wrote:
>>>>> On 2021-06-08 9:39 a.m., Sir Tim wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Trying to designate a driver as the “greatest of all time” is a
>>>>>> pointless
>>>>>> exercise and largely subjective anyway. All one can do is to say that
>>>>>> certain drivers are “amongst the greatest of all time” or,
>>>>>> possibly, “the
>>>>>> best of their generation”.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure I agree.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are certain drivers that other drivers acknowledge as being the
>>>>> very, very best. Senna was one. Jim Clark another. I don't hear the
>>>>> same
>>>>> opinions about Hamilton being voiced by his peers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is he among the very best out there today? Beyond a doubt. I think
>>>>> there
>>>>> might be 3 or 4 others who could match him given the same car, but not
>>>>> more.
>>>>>
>>>>> But it still remains that if Hamilton is among the very great, then so
>>>>> is Bottas and so is Rosberg
>>>>
>>>> If winning the odd race, or one Championship in the case of Rosberg
>>>> (helped by lots of bad 'luck' of his teammate) is the criteria.
>>>>
>>>> It isn't.
>>>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>
>> Except you never account for the fact that Hamilton was the number 1
>> driver on the team, and F1 teams almost always give preference to
>> their number 1.
>
> And that is, it seems, your only justification ...
>
> geoff

Because the only justification for Hamilton's alleged "greatness" is
that he's won a lot of races.