How many times has the FIA made teams change the diameter of their wheels? Next year, 13 BAD, 18 GOOD.

Did the teams discover that 13" is a bad idea, and if so, why were those world's best engineers unable to cope with 13" wheels? I am incurably romantic about engineering, but I'm sure "The day was" when an engineer did not go to the dealer and ask for new cards, but instead fixed the f****** thing they had been dealt.

On 13/07/2021 19:11, bra wrote:

> How many times has the FIA made teams change the diameter of their wheels? Next year, 13 BAD, 18 GOOD.

Seems like we have seen 13" wheels for decades. I suspect that they
might have been introduced in 1966, although the cars raced in the
preceding few years all look to have similar sized wheels. That said I
think that they ran on 15" before 1966 (and perhaps after). The Ferrari
Tipo 156 seemed to have 15s in 1960. But I don't know for sure.

> Did the teams discover that 13" is a bad idea, and if so, why were those world's best engineers unable to cope with 13" wheels? I am incurably romantic about engineering, but I'm sure "The day was" when an engineer did not go to the dealer and ask for new cards, but instead fixed the f****** thing they had been dealt.
>

On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 12:44:51 PM UTC-7, Brian Lawrence wrote:
> On 13/07/2021 19:11, bra wrote:
>
> > How many times has the FIA made teams change the diameter of their wheels? Next year, 13 BAD, 18 GOOD.
> Seems like we have seen 13" wheels for decades. I suspect that they
> might have been introduced in 1966, although the cars raced in the
> preceding few years all look to have similar sized wheels. That said I
> think that they ran on 15" before 1966 (and perhaps after). The Ferrari
> Tipo 156 seemed to have 15s in 1960. But I don't know for sure.
> > Did the teams discover that 13" is a bad idea, and if so, why were those world's best engineers unable to cope with 13" wheels? I am incurably romantic about engineering, but I'm sure "The day was" when an engineer did not go to the dealer and ask for new cards, but instead fixed the f****** thing they had been dealt.
> >
Thank you, Brian. Somehow I'd got it into my head that wheel dia. ad changed quite often.
But I do remember my shock when they went to "tiny" 13's.
I haven't yet seen "the" 2022 design. I hope the don't use teeny minimal sidewalls on the 18's.

On 14/07/2021 11:15 am, bra wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 12:44:51 PM UTC-7, Brian Lawrence wrote:
>> On 13/07/2021 19:11, bra wrote:
>>
>>> How many times has the FIA made teams change the diameter of their wheels? Next year, 13 BAD, 18 GOOD.
>> Seems like we have seen 13" wheels for decades. I suspect that they
>> might have been introduced in 1966, although the cars raced in the
>> preceding few years all look to have similar sized wheels. That said I
>> think that they ran on 15" before 1966 (and perhaps after). The Ferrari
>> Tipo 156 seemed to have 15s in 1960. But I don't know for sure.
>>> Did the teams discover that 13" is a bad idea, and if so, why were those world's best engineers unable to cope with 13" wheels? I am incurably romantic about engineering, but I'm sure "The day was" when an engineer did not go to the dealer and ask for new cards, but instead fixed the f****** thing they had been dealt.
>>>

The teams didn't ask for the diameter change, in fact most of them didn't want it as the sidewall
compliance of a 13" tyre is (/was) a large part of a Formula 1 cars suspension. Also a small rim
wrapped around the brake assembly is good for getting heat into the tyres (fronts especially).
Pirelli pushed for the change to make F1 tyres more 'road relevant'.

> Thank you, Brian. Somehow I'd got it into my head that wheel dia. ad changed quite often.
> But I do remember my shock when they went to "tiny" 13's.
> I haven't yet seen "the" 2022 design. I hope the don't use teeny minimal sidewalls on the 18's.

You can see the tyres (or very similar but slightly narrower ones) currently in use in F2. You can
be sure that they won't be ultra low profile as there needs to be room for Pirelli to have their
name in large writing on them.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

On 2021-07-13 11:11 a.m., bra wrote:
> How many times has the FIA made teams change the diameter of their
> wheels? Next year, 13 BAD, 18 GOOD.
>
> Did the teams discover that 13" is a bad idea, and if so, why were
> those world's best engineers unable to cope with 13" wheels? I am
> incurably romantic about engineering, but I'm sure "The day was" when
> an engineer did not go to the dealer and ask for new cards, but
> instead fixed the f****** thing they had been dealt.
>

This is about making the tires more relevant to Pirelli and its
marketing efforts.

There was a day when many cars used 13" wheels; particularly in Europe.
So quite naturally, formula cars (being very small and light in
comparison to road cars) used the components found on small and light
road cars.

Those days are long gone and 13" rims on formula cars are an anachronism.

Is it going to change in amateur racing? Of course not, and rightly so.

But F1 hasn't been small teams building cars with Triumph uprights in a
very long time.

On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 12:11:58 PM UTC-6, bra wrote:
> How many times has the FIA made teams change the diameter of their wheels? Next year, 13 BAD, 18 GOOD.
>
> Did the teams discover that 13" is a bad idea, and if so, why were those world's best engineers unable to cope with 13" wheels? I am incurably romantic about engineering, but I'm sure "The day was" when an engineer did not go to the dealer and ask for new cards, but instead fixed the f****** thing they had been dealt.

Lewis testing the new tires here.
And lots of other drivers testing the tires on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3Gm0t_DlPQ

On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 7:30:19 PM UTC-6, texas gate wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 12:11:58 PM UTC-6, bra wrote:
> > How many times has the FIA made teams change the diameter of their wheels? Next year, 13 BAD, 18 GOOD.
> >
> > Did the teams discover that 13" is a bad idea, and if so, why were those world's best engineers unable to cope with 13" wheels? I am incurably romantic about engineering, but I'm sure "The day was" when an engineer did not go to the dealer and ask for new cards, but instead fixed the f****** thing they had been dealt.
> Lewis testing the new tires here.
> And lots of other drivers testing the tires on youtube.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3Gm0t_DlPQ

A pic of the tires.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.hamilton-latest-to-try-18-inch-tyres-as-mercedes-continue-2022-pirelli-tests.3h7YMPnvKy5fnUr0Cj7GYP.html

On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 8:50:00 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
> On 2021-07-13 11:11 a.m., bra wrote:
> > How many times has the FIA made teams change the diameter of their
> > wheels? Next year, 13 BAD, 18 GOOD.
> >
> > Did the teams discover that 13" is a bad idea, and if so, why were
> > those world's best engineers unable to cope with 13" wheels? I am
> > incurably romantic about engineering, but I'm sure "The day was" when
> > an engineer did not go to the dealer and ask for new cards, but
> > instead fixed the f****** thing they had been dealt.
> >
> This is about making the tires more relevant to Pirelli and its
> marketing efforts.
>
> There was a day when many cars used 13" wheels; particularly in Europe.
> So quite naturally, formula cars (being very small and light in
> comparison to road cars) used the components found on small and light
> road cars.
>
> Those days are long gone and 13" rims on formula cars are an anachronism.
>
> Is it going to change in amateur racing? Of course not, and rightly so.
>
> But F1 hasn't been small teams building cars with Triumph uprights in a
> very long time.

My first car purchase was a 1984 Pontiac Sunbird with 13" wheels.
They've gotten steadily larger in the States over time because (I suspect) manufacturers are trying to nose each other out in Motor Trend handling tests.
I'm currently driving a Subaru Legacy with 17" wheels. The car is not enormously bigger, but the wheels keep on growing.

Dan

On 2021-07-14 7:13 a.m., Dan the Man wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 13, 2021 at 8:50:00 PM UTC-4, Alan Baker wrote:
>> On 2021-07-13 11:11 a.m., bra wrote:
>>> How many times has the FIA made teams change the diameter of
>>> their wheels? Next year, 13 BAD, 18 GOOD.
>>>
>>> Did the teams discover that 13" is a bad idea, and if so, why
>>> were those world's best engineers unable to cope with 13" wheels?
>>> I am incurably romantic about engineering, but I'm sure "The day
>>> was" when an engineer did not go to the dealer and ask for new
>>> cards, but instead fixed the f****** thing they had been dealt.
>>>
>> This is about making the tires more relevant to Pirelli and its
>> marketing efforts.
>>
>> There was a day when many cars used 13" wheels; particularly in
>> Europe. So quite naturally, formula cars (being very small and
>> light in comparison to road cars) used the components found on
>> small and light road cars.
>>
>> Those days are long gone and 13" rims on formula cars are an
>> anachronism.
>>
>> Is it going to change in amateur racing? Of course not, and rightly
>> so.
>>
>> But F1 hasn't been small teams building cars with Triumph uprights
>> in a very long time.
>
> My first car purchase was a 1984 Pontiac Sunbird with 13" wheels.
> They've gotten steadily larger in the States over time because (I
> suspect) manufacturers are trying to nose each other out in Motor
> Trend handling tests. I'm currently driving a Subaru Legacy with 17"
> wheels. The car is not enormously bigger, but the wheels keep on
> growing.

As cars grow larger, you need larger brakes so that they have sufficient
heat capacity.

Larger brakes require larger wheels.

Your Sunbird weighed about 2400lb.

The last generation of the Subaru Legacy sedan (2014-2019) weighs nearly
3700lb