So it is official, Bottas will be replaced.

Get new tyres but is not allowed to go for the fasted lap.
Surprise! He thought... go swivel and took the fastest lap anyway,
forcing Merc/Ham to react, which he did.

Still well done Valtteri.

Edmund

--
“The further a society drift from the truth,
the more it will hate those who speak it”

George Orwell

On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 09:14:33 UTC+1, Edmund wrote:
> So it is official, Bottas will be replaced.
>
>
> Get new tyres but is not allowed to go for the fasted lap.
> Surprise! He thought... go swivel and took the fastest lap anyway,
> forcing Merc/Ham to react, which he did.
>
> Still well done Valtteri.
>
> Edmund
>
> --
> “The further a society drift from the truth,
> the more it will hate those who speak it”
>
> George Orwell
So not official then? (or have I missed a press release?)

Did think it was funny though when he went for the fastest lap and needed
to be told to back off! I also wondered whether his pretty ineffective
attempt to keep Max behind him was also influenced by his knowledge of
where he will be driving next year. Even on tyres with little life left, I'd expect
plenty of other F1 drivers to be capable of holding position a little better and
for a few more corners than he managed yesterday. Though everyone can
also make mistakes and get it wrong, so perhaps I'm being un-generous with
VB (who I generally like and rate quite highly).

On 6/09/2021 8:14 pm, Edmund wrote:
> So it is official, Bottas will be replaced.
>
>
> Get new tyres but is not allowed to go for the fasted lap.
> Surprise! He thought... go swivel and took the fastest lap anyway,
> forcing Merc/Ham to react, which he did.
>
> Still well done Valtteri.
>
> Edmund
>

Your aryan prince.

geoff

On 6/09/2021 10:44 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:
> On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 09:14:33 UTC+1, Edmund wrote:
>> So it is official, Bottas will be replaced.
>>
>>
>> Get new tyres but is not allowed to go for the fasted lap.
>> Surprise! He thought... go swivel and took the fastest lap anyway,
>> forcing Merc/Ham to react, which he did.
>>
>> Still well done Valtteri.
>>
>> Edmund
>>
>> --
>> “The further a society drift from the truth,
>> the more it will hate those who speak it”
>>
>> George Orwell
> So not official then? (or have I missed a press release?)
>
> Did think it was funny though when he went for the fastest lap and needed
> to be told to back off! I also wondered whether his pretty ineffective
> attempt to keep Max behind him was also influenced by his knowledge of
> where he will be driving next year. Even on tyres with little life left, I'd expect
> plenty of other F1 drivers to be capable of holding position a little better and
> for a few more corners than he managed yesterday. Though everyone can
> also make mistakes and get it wrong, so perhaps I'm being un-generous with
> VB (who I generally like and rate quite highly).

It actually IS official (but wasn't when Eddy wrote that):
<https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.breaking-alfa-romeo-announce-valtteri-bottas-to-join-the-team-in-2022-on.6Ezs9zhh2jV1ceMcHs3e4S.html>

--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 8:44:29 PM UTC+10, matthew...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 09:14:33 UTC+1, Edmund wrote:
> > So it is official, Bottas will be replaced.
> >
> >
> > Get new tyres but is not allowed to go for the fasted lap.
> > Surprise! He thought... go swivel and took the fastest lap anyway,
> > forcing Merc/Ham to react, which he did.
> >
> > Still well done Valtteri.
> >
> > Edmund
> >
> > --
> > “The further a society drift from the truth,
> > the more it will hate those who speak it”
> >
> > George Orwell
> So not official then? (or have I missed a press release?)
>
> Did think it was funny though when he went for the fastest lap and needed
> to be told to back off! I also wondered whether his pretty ineffective
> attempt to keep Max behind him was also influenced by his knowledge of
> where he will be driving next year. Even on tyres with little life left, I'd expect
> plenty of other F1 drivers to be capable of holding position a little better and
> for a few more corners than he managed yesterday. Though everyone can
> also make mistakes and get it wrong, so perhaps I'm being un-generous with
> VB (who I generally like and rate quite highly).

It will be shortly.

On 06/09/2021 11:44, Matt Larkin wrote:
> On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 09:14:33 UTC+1, Edmund wrote:
>> So it is official, Bottas will be replaced.
>>
>>
>> Get new tyres but is not allowed to go for the fasted lap.
>> Surprise! He thought... go swivel and took the fastest lap anyway,
>> forcing Merc/Ham to react, which he did.

When he was told to abort the lap he slowed down significantly in S3,
Toto said it was by about 1.5s - not enough to avoid the FLap though.
Sky noticed the slow sector time too.

>> Still well done Valtteri.
>>
>> Edmund
>>
>> --
>> “The further a society drift from the truth,
>> the more it will hate those who speak it”
>>
>> George Orwell
> So not official then? (or have I missed a press release?)
>
> Did think it was funny though when he went for the fastest lap and needed
> to be told to back off! I also wondered whether his pretty ineffective
> attempt to keep Max behind him was also influenced by his knowledge of
> where he will be driving next year. Even on tyres with little life left, I'd expect
> plenty of other F1 drivers to be capable of holding position a little better and
> for a few more corners than he managed yesterday. Though everyone can
> also make mistakes and get it wrong, so perhaps I'm being un-generous with
> VB (who I generally like and rate quite highly).
>

On 9/6/21 2:50 PM, Brian Lawrence wrote:
> On 06/09/2021 11:44, Matt Larkin wrote:
>> On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 09:14:33 UTC+1, Edmund wrote:
>>> So it is official, Bottas will be replaced.
>>>
>>>
>>> Get new tyres but is not allowed to go for the fasted lap.
>>> Surprise! He thought... go swivel and took the fastest lap anyway,
>>> forcing Merc/Ham to react, which he did.
>
> When he was told to abort the lap he slowed down significantly in S3,
> Toto said it was by about 1.5s - not enough to avoid the FLap though.
> Sky noticed the slow sector time too.

Oh I missed that.
I thought he for the first time in his Merc life didn't bent over
backwards for the team player, my bad.
So I take back my compliments to Bottas.

Edmund

--
“The further a society drift from the truth,
the more it will hate those who speak it”

George Orwell

On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 5:46:21 AM UTC-6, geoff wrote:

> Your aryan prince.

you fucking racist

On 7/09/2021 12:50 am, Brian Lawrence wrote:
> On 06/09/2021 11:44, Matt Larkin wrote:
>> On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 09:14:33 UTC+1, Edmund wrote:
>>> So it is official, Bottas will be replaced.
>>>
>>>
>>> Get new tyres but is not allowed to go for the fasted lap.
>>> Surprise! He thought... go swivel and took the fastest lap anyway,
>>> forcing Merc/Ham to react, which he did.
>
> When he was told to abort the lap he slowed down significantly in S3,
> Toto said it was by about 1.5s - not enough to avoid the FLap though.
> Sky noticed the slow sector time too.

Yeah but his engineer had already told him not to go for fastest lap and when he asked why was told
because Lewis had it and needed it. It wasn't until he lit up the timing screens a couple of
minutes later that James Vowles had to get on the radio and tell him to abort the lap.

By then the damage was done and Mercedes had to risk another pitstop for Lewis to give him new
tyres to re-take it. It's not like it was under threat from Max, he was having trouble on his hard
tyres and had a couple of lock-ups in the last few laps.

--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 14:48:24 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:
> On 7/09/2021 12:50 am, Brian Lawrence wrote:
> > On 06/09/2021 11:44, Matt Larkin wrote:
> >> On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 09:14:33 UTC+1, Edmund wrote:
> >>> So it is official, Bottas will be replaced.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Get new tyres but is not allowed to go for the fasted lap.
> >>> Surprise! He thought... go swivel and took the fastest lap anyway,
> >>> forcing Merc/Ham to react, which he did.
> >
> > When he was told to abort the lap he slowed down significantly in S3,
> > Toto said it was by about 1.5s - not enough to avoid the FLap though.
> > Sky noticed the slow sector time too.
> Yeah but his engineer had already told him not to go for fastest lap and when he asked why was told
> because Lewis had it and needed it. It wasn't until he lit up the timing screens a couple of
> minutes later that James Vowles had to get on the radio and tell him to abort the lap.
>
> By then the damage was done and Mercedes had to risk another pitstop for Lewis to give him new
> tyres to re-take it. It's not like it was under threat from Max, he was having trouble on his hard
> tyres and had a couple of lock-ups in the last few laps.
> --
> Shaun.
>
> "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
> in the DSM"
> David Melville
>
> This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
When Bottas pitted I assumed it was always part of the plan then to have Hamilton pit again
for safety reasons. Do you think that if Bottas hadn't taken the purple point that they'd have left
Hamilton out?

Russel is getting the seat, but does he really want to play second fiddle for an indefinite number of years? Guess the pay/ endorsement check increase makes up for it.

On 7/09/2021 4:00 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
> On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 14:48:24 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:

>> By then the damage was done and Mercedes had to risk another pitstop for Lewis to give him new
>> tyres to re-take it. It's not like it was under threat from Max, he was having trouble on his hard
>> tyres and had a couple of lock-ups in the last few laps.
>> --
>> Shaun.
>>
>> "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
>> in the DSM"
>> David Melville
>>
>> This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
> When Bottas pitted I assumed it was always part of the plan then to have Hamilton pit again
> for safety reasons. Do you think that if Bottas hadn't taken the purple point that they'd have left
> Hamilton out?
>

There had been plenty of time for HAM to pit again, and he probably
would have taken the fastest lap anyway. But it would have been crazy
for Merc to have 2 drivers essentially racing each other at that point,
with the risk of losing one or both.

geoff

On 7/09/2021 4:00 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
> On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 14:48:24 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:
>> On 7/09/2021 12:50 am, Brian Lawrence wrote:
>>> On 06/09/2021 11:44, Matt Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 09:14:33 UTC+1, Edmund wrote:
>>>>> So it is official, Bottas will be replaced.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Get new tyres but is not allowed to go for the fasted lap.
>>>>> Surprise! He thought... go swivel and took the fastest lap anyway,
>>>>> forcing Merc/Ham to react, which he did.
>>>
>>> When he was told to abort the lap he slowed down significantly in S3,
>>> Toto said it was by about 1.5s - not enough to avoid the FLap though.
>>> Sky noticed the slow sector time too.
>> Yeah but his engineer had already told him not to go for fastest lap and when he asked why was told
>> because Lewis had it and needed it. It wasn't until he lit up the timing screens a couple of
>> minutes later that James Vowles had to get on the radio and tell him to abort the lap.
>>
>> By then the damage was done and Mercedes had to risk another pitstop for Lewis to give him new
>> tyres to re-take it. It's not like it was under threat from Max, he was having trouble on his hard
>> tyres and had a couple of lock-ups in the last few laps.
>> --
>> Shaun.
>>
>> "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
>> in the DSM"
>> David Melville
>>
>> This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
> When Bottas pitted I assumed it was always part of the plan then to have Hamilton pit again
> for safety reasons. Do you think that if Bottas hadn't taken the purple point that they'd have left
> Hamilton out?

Yes, fastest lap wasn't threatened by Max. They bough Valtteri in because he had nothing to lose
even from a long stop. He'd been complaining of vibration and his tyres were old as he'd last
stopped on lap 31 (Lewis stopped on lap 39). It was just to ensure 3rd place.

Shaun.
--

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

On 7/09/2021 7:52 am, XYXPDQ wrote:
> Russel is getting the seat, but does he really want to play second fiddle for an indefinite number of years? Guess the pay/ endorsement check increase makes up for it.

Who says he's going to play second fiddle? I think that Mercedes is a meritocracy (and Lewis
wouldn't have it any other way). Maybe until he proves himself and gets in the points race he'll be
'second driver' but I think he'll prove himself pretty quickly.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

On 7/09/2021 12:04 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
> On 7/09/2021 7:52 am, XYXPDQ wrote:
>> Russel is getting the seat, but does he really want to play second fiddle for an indefinite
>> number of years?  Guess the pay/ endorsement check increase makes up for it.
>
> Who says he's going to play second fiddle? I think that Mercedes is a meritocracy (and Lewis
> wouldn't have it any other way). Maybe until he proves himself and gets in the points race he'll be
> 'second driver' but I think he'll prove himself pretty quickly.

Also just getting to drive for Mercedes instead of Williams would be as attractive as hell for
someone who's spent most of their childhood and all of their adult life learning to be the best
racing driver that they possibly can. No racing driver will chose to drive a backmarker over a
front runner regardless of pay cheque or team hierarchy. They're all doing it to be the best driver
they can be and to do that they need the best car they can get.

Isn't this obvious to people? I thought it would be but it's been on my mind since my first reply
that, going by the previous post perhaps it isn't.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

On 9/7/21 2:01 AM, ~misfit~ wrote:
> On 7/09/2021 4:00 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
>> On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 14:48:24 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>> On 7/09/2021 12:50 am, Brian Lawrence wrote:
>>>> On 06/09/2021 11:44, Matt Larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 09:14:33 UTC+1, Edmund wrote:
>>>>>> So it is official, Bottas will be replaced.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Get new tyres but is not allowed to go for the fasted lap.
>>>>>> Surprise! He thought... go swivel and took the fastest lap anyway,
>>>>>> forcing Merc/Ham to react, which he did.
>>>>
>>>> When he was told to abort the lap he slowed down significantly in S3,
>>>> Toto said it was by about 1.5s - not enough to avoid the FLap though.
>>>> Sky noticed the slow sector time too.
>>> Yeah but his engineer had already told him not to go for fastest lap
>>> and when he asked why was told
>>> because Lewis had it and needed it. It wasn't until he lit up the
>>> timing screens a couple of
>>> minutes later that James Vowles had to get on the radio and tell him
>>> to abort the lap.
>>>
>>> By then the damage was done and Mercedes had to risk another pitstop
>>> for Lewis to give him new
>>> tyres to re-take it. It's not like it was under threat from Max, he
>>> was having trouble on his hard
>>> tyres and had a couple of lock-ups in the last few laps.
>>> --
>>> Shaun.
>>>
>>> "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has
>>> a cozy little classification
>>> in the DSM"
>>> David Melville
>>>
>>> This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any
>>> half-arsed self-promoting software.
>> When Bottas pitted I assumed it was always part of the plan then to
>> have Hamilton pit again
>> for safety reasons.  Do you think that if Bottas hadn't taken the
>> purple point that they'd have left
>> Hamilton out?
>
> Yes, fastest lap wasn't threatened by Max. They bough Valtteri in
> because he had nothing to lose even from a long stop. He'd been
> complaining of vibration and his tyres were old as he'd last stopped on
> lap 31 (Lewis stopped on lap 39). It was just to ensure 3rd place.

Well actually Bottas asked Merc why he is called in if he was not
allowed to go for the fastest lap.
Then the team told him he had vibration :-)
>
> Shaun.

Edmund

--
“The further a society drift from the truth,
the more it will hate those who speak it”

George Orwell

Edmund <nomail@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 9/7/21 2:01 AM, ~misfit~ wrote:
>> On 7/09/2021 4:00 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
>>> On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 14:48:24 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>>> On 7/09/2021 12:50 am, Brian Lawrence wrote:
>>>>> On 06/09/2021 11:44, Matt Larkin wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 09:14:33 UTC+1, Edmund wrote:
>>>>>>> So it is official, Bottas will be replaced.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Get new tyres but is not allowed to go for the fasted lap.
>>>>>>> Surprise! He thought... go swivel and took the fastest lap anyway,
>>>>>>> forcing Merc/Ham to react, which he did.
>>>>>
>>>>> When he was told to abort the lap he slowed down significantly in S3,
>>>>> Toto said it was by about 1.5s - not enough to avoid the FLap though.
>>>>> Sky noticed the slow sector time too.
>>>> Yeah but his engineer had already told him not to go for fastest lap
>>>> and when he asked why was told
>>>> because Lewis had it and needed it. It wasn't until he lit up the
>>>> timing screens a couple of
>>>> minutes later that James Vowles had to get on the radio and tell him
>>>> to abort the lap.
>>>>
>>>> By then the damage was done and Mercedes had to risk another pitstop
>>>> for Lewis to give him new
>>>> tyres to re-take it. It's not like it was under threat from Max, he
>>>> was having trouble on his hard
>>>> tyres and had a couple of lock-ups in the last few laps.
>>>> --
>>>> Shaun.
>>>>
>>>> "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has
>>>> a cozy little classification
>>>> in the DSM"
>>>> David Melville
>>>>
>>>> This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any
>>>> half-arsed self-promoting software.
>>> When Bottas pitted I assumed it was always part of the plan then to
>>> have Hamilton pit again
>>> for safety reasons.  Do you think that if Bottas hadn't taken the
>>> purple point that they'd have left
>>> Hamilton out?
>>
>> Yes, fastest lap wasn't threatened by Max. They bough Valtteri in
>> because he had nothing to lose even from a long stop. He'd been
>> complaining of vibration and his tyres were old as he'd last stopped on
>> lap 31 (Lewis stopped on lap 39). It was just to ensure 3rd place.
>
> Well actually Bottas asked Merc why he is called in if he was not
> allowed to go for the fastest lap.
> Then the team told him he had vibration :-)
>
No, he reported a vibration earlier.

--
Sir Tim

~misfit~ <shaun.at.pukekohe@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 7/09/2021 7:52 am, XYXPDQ wrote:
>> Russel is getting the seat, but does he really want to play second
>> fiddle for an indefinite number of years? Guess the pay/ endorsement
>> check increase makes up for it.
>
> Who says he's going to play second fiddle? I think that Mercedes is a
> meritocracy (and Lewis
> wouldn't have it any other way). Maybe until he proves himself and gets
> in the points race he'll be
> 'second driver' but I think he'll prove himself pretty quickly.

+1

--
Sir Tim

On Tuesday, 7 September 2021 at 05:04:09 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:
> On 7/09/2021 12:04 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
> > On 7/09/2021 7:52 am, XYXPDQ wrote:
> >> Russel is getting the seat, but does he really want to play second fiddle for an indefinite
> >> number of years? Guess the pay/ endorsement check increase makes up for it.
> >
> > Who says he's going to play second fiddle? I think that Mercedes is a meritocracy (and Lewis
> > wouldn't have it any other way). Maybe until he proves himself and gets in the points race he'll be
> > 'second driver' but I think he'll prove himself pretty quickly.
> Also just getting to drive for Mercedes instead of Williams would be as attractive as hell for
> someone who's spent most of their childhood and all of their adult life learning to be the best
> racing driver that they possibly can. No racing driver will chose to drive a backmarker over a
> front runner regardless of pay cheque or team hierarchy. They're all doing it to be the best driver
> they can be and to do that they need the best car they can get.
>
> Isn't this obvious to people? I thought it would be but it's been on my mind since my first reply
> that, going by the previous post perhaps it isn't.
> --
> Shaun.
>
> "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
> in the DSM"
> David Melville
>
> This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
The lure of Merc is pretty clear for any driver and any driver worth their salt believes either a) it would
be a fantastic learning opportunity to drive against Lewis in a high performing car or b) that they
are simply better than Lewis anyway and will be able to demonstrate that once in the car.

My wonder about it is whether Merc (meritocracy or not) can stomach two drivers fighting each other
for 2nd /3rd places regularly. If (theoretically) the 1st, 2nd and 3rd places next year are being fought
over by Max in a RBR and the Mercs, and if (hypothetically) there's a 50:50 split across the season
as to which car is fastest, then Max walks away with the championship, even if Merc wins the
constructors.

Of course, Merc could come flying out of the blocks with the clearly fastest car and win the vast
majority of all the races, and in that case Merc get to "allow" either driver to win the WDC. But for them
at least, any other scenario with two equally fast drivers in their cars means they split their spoils and
lose out in a fight with a one-man team like Max at RBR.

On 7/09/2021 7:52 pm, Sir Tim wrote:
> Edmund <nomail@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 9/7/21 2:01 AM, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>> On 7/09/2021 4:00 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 14:48:24 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>>>> On 7/09/2021 12:50 am, Brian Lawrence wrote:
>>>>>> On 06/09/2021 11:44, Matt Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 09:14:33 UTC+1, Edmund wrote:
>>>>>>>> So it is official, Bottas will be replaced.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Get new tyres but is not allowed to go for the fasted lap.
>>>>>>>> Surprise! He thought... go swivel and took the fastest lap anyway,
>>>>>>>> forcing Merc/Ham to react, which he did.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When he was told to abort the lap he slowed down significantly in S3,
>>>>>> Toto said it was by about 1.5s - not enough to avoid the FLap though.
>>>>>> Sky noticed the slow sector time too.
>>>>> Yeah but his engineer had already told him not to go for fastest lap
>>>>> and when he asked why was told
>>>>> because Lewis had it and needed it. It wasn't until he lit up the
>>>>> timing screens a couple of
>>>>> minutes later that James Vowles had to get on the radio and tell him
>>>>> to abort the lap.
>>>>>
>>>>> By then the damage was done and Mercedes had to risk another pitstop
>>>>> for Lewis to give him new
>>>>> tyres to re-take it. It's not like it was under threat from Max, he
>>>>> was having trouble on his hard
>>>>> tyres and had a couple of lock-ups in the last few laps.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Shaun.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has
>>>>> a cozy little classification
>>>>> in the DSM"
>>>>> David Melville
>>>>>
>>>>> This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any
>>>>> half-arsed self-promoting software.
>>>> When Bottas pitted I assumed it was always part of the plan then to
>>>> have Hamilton pit again
>>>> for safety reasons.  Do you think that if Bottas hadn't taken the
>>>> purple point that they'd have left
>>>> Hamilton out?
>>>
>>> Yes, fastest lap wasn't threatened by Max. They bough Valtteri in
>>> because he had nothing to lose even from a long stop. He'd been
>>> complaining of vibration and his tyres were old as he'd last stopped on
>>> lap 31 (Lewis stopped on lap 39). It was just to ensure 3rd place.
>>
>> Well actually Bottas asked Merc why he is called in if he was not
>> allowed to go for the fastest lap.
>> Then the team told him he had vibration :-)
>>
> No, he reported a vibration earlier.

Correct. However he was told that was /why/ he was bought in when he asked why he shouldn't go for
fastest lap (yet he still went for it and had to be warned too late by James).

Toto's now saying 'ain't no big thang' but I doubt that he's happy about it. He should sack him! <g>
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

On Tue, 07 Sep 2021 09:29:36 +0200, Edmund wrote:

> On 9/7/21 2:01 AM, ~misfit~ wrote:
>> On 7/09/2021 4:00 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
>>> On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 14:48:24 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>>> On 7/09/2021 12:50 am, Brian Lawrence wrote:
>>>>> On 06/09/2021 11:44, Matt Larkin wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 09:14:33 UTC+1, Edmund wrote:
>>>>>>> So it is official, Bottas will be replaced.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Get new tyres but is not allowed to go for the fasted lap.
>>>>>>> Surprise! He thought... go swivel and took the fastest lap anyway,
>>>>>>> forcing Merc/Ham to react, which he did.
>>>>>
>>>>> When he was told to abort the lap he slowed down significantly in
>>>>> S3,
>>>>> Toto said it was by about 1.5s - not enough to avoid the FLap
>>>>> though.
>>>>> Sky noticed the slow sector time too.
>>>> Yeah but his engineer had already told him not to go for fastest lap
>>>> and when he asked why was told because Lewis had it and needed it. It
>>>> wasn't until he lit up the timing screens a couple of minutes later
>>>> that James Vowles had to get on the radio and tell him to abort the
>>>> lap.
>>>>
>>>> By then the damage was done and Mercedes had to risk another pitstop
>>>> for Lewis to give him new tyres to re-take it. It's not like it was
>>>> under threat from Max, he was having trouble on his hard tyres and
>>>> had a couple of lock-ups in the last few laps.
>>>> --
>>>> Shaun.
>>>>
>>>> "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has
>>>> a cozy little classification in the DSM"
>>>> David Melville
>>>>
>>>> This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any
>>>> half-arsed self-promoting software.
>>> When Bottas pitted I assumed it was always part of the plan then to
>>> have Hamilton pit again for safety reasons.  Do you think that if
>>> Bottas hadn't taken the purple point that they'd have left Hamilton
>>> out?
>>
>> Yes, fastest lap wasn't threatened by Max. They bough Valtteri in
>> because he had nothing to lose even from a long stop. He'd been
>> complaining of vibration and his tyres were old as he'd last stopped on
>> lap 31 (Lewis stopped on lap 39). It was just to ensure 3rd place.
>
> Well actually Bottas asked Merc why he is called in if he was not
> allowed to go for the fastest lap.
> Then the team told him he had vibration :-)
>>
>> Shaun.
>
> Edmund

Bottas had already mentioned vibration on an earlier message.

That said I suspect the real reason they brought him in was to ensure a
clear stop for Lewis & that they were going to ensure fastest lap for
lewis anyway.

--
"I think Michael is like litmus paper - he's always trying to learn."
-- Elizabeth Taylor, absurd non-sequitur about Michael
Jackson

On 9/7/21 9:52 AM, Sir Tim wrote:
> Edmund <nomail@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 9/7/21 2:01 AM, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>> On 7/09/2021 4:00 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 14:48:24 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>>>> On 7/09/2021 12:50 am, Brian Lawrence wrote:
>>>>>> On 06/09/2021 11:44, Matt Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 09:14:33 UTC+1, Edmund wrote:
>>>>>>>> So it is official, Bottas will be replaced.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Get new tyres but is not allowed to go for the fasted lap.
>>>>>>>> Surprise! He thought... go swivel and took the fastest lap anyway,
>>>>>>>> forcing Merc/Ham to react, which he did.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When he was told to abort the lap he slowed down significantly in S3,
>>>>>> Toto said it was by about 1.5s - not enough to avoid the FLap though.
>>>>>> Sky noticed the slow sector time too.
>>>>> Yeah but his engineer had already told him not to go for fastest lap
>>>>> and when he asked why was told
>>>>> because Lewis had it and needed it. It wasn't until he lit up the
>>>>> timing screens a couple of
>>>>> minutes later that James Vowles had to get on the radio and tell him
>>>>> to abort the lap.
>>>>>
>>>>> By then the damage was done and Mercedes had to risk another pitstop
>>>>> for Lewis to give him new
>>>>> tyres to re-take it. It's not like it was under threat from Max, he
>>>>> was having trouble on his hard
>>>>> tyres and had a couple of lock-ups in the last few laps.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Shaun.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has
>>>>> a cozy little classification
>>>>> in the DSM"
>>>>> David Melville
>>>>>
>>>>> This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any
>>>>> half-arsed self-promoting software.
>>>> When Bottas pitted I assumed it was always part of the plan then to
>>>> have Hamilton pit again
>>>> for safety reasons.  Do you think that if Bottas hadn't taken the
>>>> purple point that they'd have left
>>>> Hamilton out?
>>>
>>> Yes, fastest lap wasn't threatened by Max. They bough Valtteri in
>>> because he had nothing to lose even from a long stop. He'd been
>>> complaining of vibration and his tyres were old as he'd last stopped on
>>> lap 31 (Lewis stopped on lap 39). It was just to ensure 3rd place.
>>
>> Well actually Bottas asked Merc why he is called in if he was not
>> allowed to go for the fastest lap.
>> Then the team told him he had vibration :-)
>>
> No, he reported a vibration earlier.
>
>
Yes, it happened exactly as I said.
Regardless what he reported earlier.

--
“The further a society drift from the truth,
the more it will hate those who speak it”

George Orwell

On 7/09/2021 9:09 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:
> On Tuesday, 7 September 2021 at 05:04:09 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:
>> On 7/09/2021 12:04 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>> On 7/09/2021 7:52 am, XYXPDQ wrote:
>>>> Russel is getting the seat, but does he really want to play second fiddle for an indefinite
>>>> number of years? Guess the pay/ endorsement check increase makes up for it.
>>>
>>> Who says he's going to play second fiddle? I think that Mercedes is a meritocracy (and Lewis
>>> wouldn't have it any other way). Maybe until he proves himself and gets in the points race he'll be
>>> 'second driver' but I think he'll prove himself pretty quickly.
>> Also just getting to drive for Mercedes instead of Williams would be as attractive as hell for
>> someone who's spent most of their childhood and all of their adult life learning to be the best
>> racing driver that they possibly can. No racing driver will chose to drive a backmarker over a
>> front runner regardless of pay cheque or team hierarchy. They're all doing it to be the best driver
>> they can be and to do that they need the best car they can get.
>>
>> Isn't this obvious to people? I thought it would be but it's been on my mind since my first reply
>> that, going by the previous post perhaps it isn't.
>> --
>> Shaun.
>>
>> "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
>> in the DSM"
>> David Melville
>>
>> This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
> The lure of Merc is pretty clear for any driver and any driver worth their salt believes either a) it would
> be a fantastic learning opportunity to drive against Lewis in a high performing car or b) that they
> are simply better than Lewis anyway and will be able to demonstrate that once in the car.
>
> My wonder about it is whether Merc (meritocracy or not) can stomach two drivers fighting each other
> for 2nd /3rd places regularly. If (theoretically) the 1st, 2nd and 3rd places next year are being fought
> over by Max in a RBR and the Mercs, and if (hypothetically) there's a 50:50 split across the season
> as to which car is fastest, then Max walks away with the championship, even if Merc wins the
> constructors.
>
> Of course, Merc could come flying out of the blocks with the clearly fastest car and win the vast
> majority of all the races, and in that case Merc get to "allow" either driver to win the WDC. But for them
> at least, any other scenario with two equally fast drivers in their cars means they split their spoils and
> lose out in a fight with a one-man team like Max at RBR.

In the above scenario I like to think that, by the third or fourth race of the season one of the
Merc drivers would be in ahead and the whole team (including the other driver) would get behind
that driver for the championship. It may be wishful thinking but I think it's not only possible but
likely. George and Lewis are both respectful of each other, neither is a selfish Rosberg or
petulant Bottas. The fact that they share the same nationality doesn't hurt the camaraderie between
them. Lewis didn't have that with his last two team mates. George might well choose to defer to
Lewis if they seem equally matched as he'll know that by doing so the team will be his when Lewis
retires anyway.

George is no slouch, he won both GP3 and F2 (beating Norris, Albon and Latifi...) at the first try
in consecutive years before going to Williams. I'm really looking forward to seeing them as team
mates. The way George cut through the field (including passing Bottas like he wasn't there) when he
was driving Lewis' (cramped and cramp-inducing) Merc at Sakhir fills me with hope for a great
season next year.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

On 7/09/2021 9:40 pm, alister wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Sep 2021 09:29:36 +0200, Edmund wrote:
>
>> On 9/7/21 2:01 AM, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>> On 7/09/2021 4:00 am, Matt Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 14:48:24 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>>>> On 7/09/2021 12:50 am, Brian Lawrence wrote:
>>>>>> On 06/09/2021 11:44, Matt Larkin wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, 6 September 2021 at 09:14:33 UTC+1, Edmund wrote:
>>>>>>>> So it is official, Bottas will be replaced.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Get new tyres but is not allowed to go for the fasted lap.
>>>>>>>> Surprise! He thought... go swivel and took the fastest lap anyway,
>>>>>>>> forcing Merc/Ham to react, which he did.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When he was told to abort the lap he slowed down significantly in
>>>>>> S3,
>>>>>> Toto said it was by about 1.5s - not enough to avoid the FLap
>>>>>> though.
>>>>>> Sky noticed the slow sector time too.
>>>>> Yeah but his engineer had already told him not to go for fastest lap
>>>>> and when he asked why was told because Lewis had it and needed it. It
>>>>> wasn't until he lit up the timing screens a couple of minutes later
>>>>> that James Vowles had to get on the radio and tell him to abort the
>>>>> lap.
>>>>>
>>>>> By then the damage was done and Mercedes had to risk another pitstop
>>>>> for Lewis to give him new tyres to re-take it. It's not like it was
>>>>> under threat from Max, he was having trouble on his hard tyres and
>>>>> had a couple of lock-ups in the last few laps.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Shaun.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has
>>>>> a cozy little classification in the DSM"
>>>>> David Melville
>>>>>
>>>>> This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any
>>>>> half-arsed self-promoting software.
>>>> When Bottas pitted I assumed it was always part of the plan then to
>>>> have Hamilton pit again for safety reasons.  Do you think that if
>>>> Bottas hadn't taken the purple point that they'd have left Hamilton
>>>> out?
>>>
>>> Yes, fastest lap wasn't threatened by Max. They bough Valtteri in
>>> because he had nothing to lose even from a long stop. He'd been
>>> complaining of vibration and his tyres were old as he'd last stopped on
>>> lap 31 (Lewis stopped on lap 39). It was just to ensure 3rd place.
>>
>> Well actually Bottas asked Merc why he is called in if he was not
>> allowed to go for the fastest lap.
>> Then the team told him he had vibration :-)
>>>
>>> Shaun.
>>
>> Edmund
>
>
> Bottas had already mentioned vibration on an earlier message.

Yep. But Eddy will keep repeating his song. He sings so loud he can't hear anyone else.

> That said I suspect the real reason they brought him in was to ensure a
> clear stop for Lewis & that they were going to ensure fastest lap for
> lewis anyway.

It's hard to know for sure but I think Merc didn't plan to bring Lewis in. I believe that they
bought Valterri in as his tyres were ~37 laps old (and damaged), there were still a few laps to go
and he had enough gap behind so as to not lose a place. A safety stop.

They did say to Valterri on the radio after his pit stop that he wasn't to go for fastest lap and
when he asked why he'd been bought in he was told because of vibrations and so that Lewis would
have a free stop at the end.

In my opinion they were keeping options open. Lewis was within a couple of seconds of Max and Max
had recently locked up so it would have been best to leave him there to put pressure on.

Valterri's stop cost him 26 seconds which included 5 seconds stationary. When he came in Lewis had
25 seconds over him and was pulling out a second a lap (with 4 laps left) so had enough gap anyway.

Unless Toto or James says somewhere we'll never know for sure.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

On Tuesday, 7 September 2021 at 13:31:23 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:
> On 7/09/2021 9:09 pm, Matt Larkin wrote:
> > On Tuesday, 7 September 2021 at 05:04:09 UTC+1, ~misfit~ wrote:
> >> On 7/09/2021 12:04 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
> >>> On 7/09/2021 7:52 am, XYXPDQ wrote:
> >>>> Russel is getting the seat, but does he really want to play second fiddle for an indefinite
> >>>> number of years? Guess the pay/ endorsement check increase makes up for it.
> >>>
> >>> Who says he's going to play second fiddle? I think that Mercedes is a meritocracy (and Lewis
> >>> wouldn't have it any other way). Maybe until he proves himself and gets in the points race he'll be
> >>> 'second driver' but I think he'll prove himself pretty quickly.
> >> Also just getting to drive for Mercedes instead of Williams would be as attractive as hell for
> >> someone who's spent most of their childhood and all of their adult life learning to be the best
> >> racing driver that they possibly can. No racing driver will chose to drive a backmarker over a
> >> front runner regardless of pay cheque or team hierarchy. They're all doing it to be the best driver
> >> they can be and to do that they need the best car they can get.
> >>
> >> Isn't this obvious to people? I thought it would be but it's been on my mind since my first reply
> >> that, going by the previous post perhaps it isn't.
> >> --
> >> Shaun.
> >>
> >> "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
> >> in the DSM"
> >> David Melville
> >>
> >> This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
> > The lure of Merc is pretty clear for any driver and any driver worth their salt believes either a) it would
> > be a fantastic learning opportunity to drive against Lewis in a high performing car or b) that they
> > are simply better than Lewis anyway and will be able to demonstrate that once in the car.
> >
> > My wonder about it is whether Merc (meritocracy or not) can stomach two drivers fighting each other
> > for 2nd /3rd places regularly. If (theoretically) the 1st, 2nd and 3rd places next year are being fought
> > over by Max in a RBR and the Mercs, and if (hypothetically) there's a 50:50 split across the season
> > as to which car is fastest, then Max walks away with the championship, even if Merc wins the
> > constructors.
> >
> > Of course, Merc could come flying out of the blocks with the clearly fastest car and win the vast
> > majority of all the races, and in that case Merc get to "allow" either driver to win the WDC. But for them
> > at least, any other scenario with two equally fast drivers in their cars means they split their spoils and
> > lose out in a fight with a one-man team like Max at RBR.
> In the above scenario I like to think that, by the third or fourth race of the season one of the
> Merc drivers would be in ahead and the whole team (including the other driver) would get behind
> that driver for the championship. It may be wishful thinking but I think it's not only possible but
> likely. George and Lewis are both respectful of each other, neither is a selfish Rosberg or
> petulant Bottas. The fact that they share the same nationality doesn't hurt the camaraderie between
> them. Lewis didn't have that with his last two team mates. George might well choose to defer to
> Lewis if they seem equally matched as he'll know that by doing so the team will be his when Lewis
> retires anyway.
>
> George is no slouch, he won both GP3 and F2 (beating Norris, Albon and Latifi...) at the first try
> in consecutive years before going to Williams. I'm really looking forward to seeing them as team
> mates. The way George cut through the field (including passing Bottas like he wasn't there) when he
> was driving Lewis' (cramped and cramp-inducing) Merc at Sakhir fills me with hope for a great
> season next year.
> --
> Shaun.
>
> "Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
> in the DSM"
> David Melville
>
> This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.
Yes, but what if after 4-5 races Russel is on (say) 83 points and Hamilton 81? Entirely plausible
that the "dominant" driver worth backing doesn't take shape until much later in the year, whereas
it's a dead cert that Max is the #1 threat. Of course ,RBR could stuff up their design and it could be
Rus vs Ham vs Leclerc vs Sainz vs Alonso etc etc etc But I can't help but think that the promotion
of Russell has a direct negative impact on the likelihood of Hamilton winning the WDC next year
compared to the position if they'd kept Bottas in the team.

Don't get me wrong, I want Russell's move, and I want to be able to cheer him to victory so I am
pleased Merc has done it. My only point is that if I was in Merc's shoes I'm not entirely certain it
makes 100% "business" sense.