What are the top 10 best football matches you've ever seen? Post your top 10, or 5 or 3 or whatever if you can't think of 10, here.

And I'll probably watch most of them on Footballia.

On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 8:37:42 AM UTC, Mark wrote:
> What are the top 10 best football matches you've ever seen? Post your top 10, or 5 or 3 or whatever if you can't think of 10, here.
>
> And I'll probably watch most of them on Footballia.

Nobody ever watched any excellent football matches then? Or is it just taking people ages to decide what order to put them in or whatever?

I've run out of matches I know are likely to be good to watch on Footballia.. Can anyone give me any recommendations?

On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 6:41:23 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 8:37:42 AM UTC, Mark wrote:
> > What are the top 10 best football matches you've ever seen? Post your top 10, or 5 or 3 or whatever if you can't think of 10, here.
> >
> > And I'll probably watch most of them on Footballia.
> Nobody ever watched any excellent football matches then? Or is it just taking people ages to decide what order to put them in or whatever?
>
> I've run out of matches I know are likely to be good to watch on Footballia. Can anyone give me any recommendations?

2004 Liverpool 3-1 Olympiakos
2005 Liverpool 3-3 Milan
2016 Liverpool 3-2 Dortmund
2019 Liverpool 4-0 Barcelona
2023 Liverpool 7-0 Man Utd

I'll think of 5 more.

On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 8:37:42 AM UTC, Mark wrote:
> What are the top 10 best football matches you've ever seen? Post your top 10, or 5 or 3 or whatever if you can't think of 10, here.
>
> And I'll probably watch most of them on Footballia.

Not necessarily “the best” but a few memorable ones that spring to mind:

Galatasaray - Neuchatel Xamax 1988-89 European Cup second round second leg (helps if you know the first leg result)

Liverpool - Everton 1989 FA Cup Final

Argentina - Cameroon 1990 World Cup group stage (but you know this already)

England - Cameroon 1990 World Cup quarter final (but you know this already)

Manchester United - Galatasaray 1993/94 Champions League qualifiers first leg

Argentina - Romania 1994 World Cup second round

Celtic - Porto 2002/03 UEFA Cup final

Turkey - Czech Republic Euro 2008 group stage

Ghana - Uruguay 2010 World Cup quarter final

I won’t spoil the scores.

RM

On 2023-03-15 02:37, Mark wrote:
> What are the top 10 best football matches you've ever seen? Post your top 10, or 5 or 3 or whatever if you can't think of 10, here.
>
> And I'll probably watch most of them on Footballia.

In person, or on TV ?

If you allow televised ones, I strongly recommend (in no particular order):

Celtic - Inter Milan 1967 European Cup final. Total football before
its time and a deserved winner

Belgium - Russia World Cup 1986

Brazil - France World Cup 1986

Belgium - England WOrld Cup 1990

Liverpool - Borussia Moenchengladbach - European Cup final 1977

Scotland - Netherlands, World Cup 1978

Netherlands - Argentina World Cup 1998

Mexico - Argentina World Cup 2006

Czech Republic - Netherlands Euro 2004

Monaco - Deportivo La Coruña (CHampions League group stage, 2003-2004)

Real Madrid - Zaragoza, Copa del Rey FInal 2004

I make no claims that these are the best or most exciting ever, and the
list is biased towards World Cups (because I watch more games then) but
they are ones that stay in my memory.

Mark escreveu:
> What are the top 10 best football matches you've ever seen? Post your top
> 10, or 5 or 3 or whatever if you can't think of 10, here.
>
> And I'll probably watch most of them on Footballia.

Can't think of 10 at this moment, but here's two that hopefully have stood
the test of time. Also, both went to penalties, which is always a quite
entertaining thing as long as your team isn't involved :-)

First, the River vs Boca Copa Libertadores 2004 semifinal, return leg at El
Monumental. I remember at the time I thought it was one of the best games
I had ever seen. Quite intense stuff.

Another one from way back is the Supercopa 1993 final, return leg, São Paulo
vs Flamengo. If I recall it correctly, it was an excellent one as well. And
you get to see a Telê Santana team too.

Not sure if those were THE best matches I've ever seen, but they did cause
quite an impression on me when I watched them.

About national teams, I remember Copa America 2011 quarterfinal, Argentina
vs Uruguay, as a fun one to watch (another one which ended in penalties, btw).
Plus there are a handful of others already mentioned by Real Mardin and MH
that don't need to be repeated here. I'll try to think up a few more.

Best regards,

Lléo

On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 5:04:44 PM UTC, Al Kamista wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 6:41:23 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 8:37:42 AM UTC, Mark wrote:
> > > What are the top 10 best football matches you've ever seen? Post your top 10, or 5 or 3 or whatever if you can't think of 10, here.
> > >
> > > And I'll probably watch most of them on Footballia.
> > Nobody ever watched any excellent football matches then? Or is it just taking people ages to decide what order to put them in or whatever?
> >
> > I've run out of matches I know are likely to be good to watch on Footballia. Can anyone give me any recommendations?
> 2004 Liverpool 3-1 Olympiakos
> 2005 Liverpool 3-3 Milan
> 2016 Liverpool 3-2 Dortmund
> 2019 Liverpool 4-0 Barcelona
> 2023 Liverpool 7-0 Man Utd
>
> I'll think of 5 more.

One I quite enjoyed was:

1984 Independiente 1 Liverpool 0. I thought Liverpool played quite well by English standards actually. You were no match for us though. We didn't actually play that well. It was kind of like watching an Italian league match between Juventus and Sassuolo or something, where a superior team grinds out a win and even though it doesn't look like an absolute thrashing, the better team's quality results in them winning anyway. You never looked like scoring (just like in 1977 and 1978 I suppose :-P). Maybe our defense played better than our attack; to be honest, we didn't look particularly likely to score a 2nd goal either.

It was fun watching Independiente become World Champions though.

On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 4:12:01 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 5:04:44 PM UTC, Al Kamista wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 6:41:23 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 8:37:42 AM UTC, Mark wrote:
> > > > What are the top 10 best football matches you've ever seen? Post your top 10, or 5 or 3 or whatever if you can't think of 10, here.
> > > >
> > > > And I'll probably watch most of them on Footballia.
> > > Nobody ever watched any excellent football matches then? Or is it just taking people ages to decide what order to put them in or whatever?
> > >
> > > I've run out of matches I know are likely to be good to watch on Footballia. Can anyone give me any recommendations?
> > 2004 Liverpool 3-1 Olympiakos
> > 2005 Liverpool 3-3 Milan
> > 2016 Liverpool 3-2 Dortmund
> > 2019 Liverpool 4-0 Barcelona
> > 2023 Liverpool 7-0 Man Utd
> >
> > I'll think of 5 more.
> One I quite enjoyed was:
>
> 1984 Independiente 1 Liverpool 0. I thought Liverpool played quite well by English standards actually.

Those "English standards" had led to an English club winning 7 out of 8 European Cups coming into that game.

Now you are well aware that at the time, English clubs treated this game as a little more than a friendly. They were probably out drinking sake until 4am the night before.

On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 6:41:23 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
> I've run out of matches I know are likely to be good to watch on Footballia. Can anyone give me any recommendations?

Some slightly off the beaten track club matches
- Barcelona - Sampdoria, 1992 EC1 final
- Ajax - Juventus, 1996-97 EC1 semifinal (return leg also a good one)
- Juventus - Real Madrid, 2002-2003 CL semifinal
- Juventus - Argentinos Juniors, 1985 Intercontinental Cup
- Juventus - Fiorentina, Serie A 1994-1995 (ok, I'm biased, so what)

This one I haven't watched in its entirety, but should be a good one
- Monaco - Manchester City, both legs, 2016-2017 Champions League

This is probably worth rewatching:
- Chelsea - Barcelona, 2009 CL semifinal

And this led me to see that Chelsea and Liverpool had a 4-4 in the quarterfinal return leg. That one too.

On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 1:06:56 PM UTC, Al Kamista wrote:
> On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 4:12:01 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 5:04:44 PM UTC, Al Kamista wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 6:41:23 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 8:37:42 AM UTC, Mark wrote:
> > > > > What are the top 10 best football matches you've ever seen? Post your top 10, or 5 or 3 or whatever if you can't think of 10, here.
> > > > >
> > > > > And I'll probably watch most of them on Footballia.
> > > > Nobody ever watched any excellent football matches then? Or is it just taking people ages to decide what order to put them in or whatever?
> > > >
> > > > I've run out of matches I know are likely to be good to watch on Footballia. Can anyone give me any recommendations?
> > > 2004 Liverpool 3-1 Olympiakos
> > > 2005 Liverpool 3-3 Milan
> > > 2016 Liverpool 3-2 Dortmund
> > > 2019 Liverpool 4-0 Barcelona
> > > 2023 Liverpool 7-0 Man Utd
> > >
> > > I'll think of 5 more.
> > One I quite enjoyed was:
> >
> > 1984 Independiente 1 Liverpool 0. I thought Liverpool played quite well by English standards actually.
> Those "English standards" had led to an English club winning 7 out of 8 European Cups coming into that game.

Just when the standard of football in Europe was so low that European Clubs won 0 out of 8 World Club Championships. This was also followed by a run of 13 consecutive years without an English club even reaching the Final of the European Cup, from 1986 to 1998.
>
> Now you are well aware that at the time, English clubs treated this game as a little more than a friendly. They were probably out drinking sake until 4am the night before.

If they're too unprofessional to even take the World Championship of the World's number 1 sport seriously, that's their problem.

Mark wrote:

> On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 1:06:56 PM UTC, Al Kamista wrote:
> >
> > Now you are well aware that at the time, English clubs treated this
> > game as a little more than a friendly. They were probably out
> > drinking sake until 4am the night before.
>
> If they're too unprofessional to even take the World Championship of
> the World's number 1 sport seriously, that's their problem.

That's one point of view and it could be justified... but the fact is a
lot of European clubs didn't take it seriously, whatever the reason.
FIFA themselves didn't even acknowledge it until recent times so it was
hardly the "World Championship" if football's own governing body didn't
regulate it!

On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 5:57:05 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
> On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 1:06:56 PM UTC, Al Kamista wrote:
> > On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 4:12:01 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 5:04:44 PM UTC, Al Kamista wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 6:41:23 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 8:37:42 AM UTC, Mark wrote:
> > > > > > What are the top 10 best football matches you've ever seen? Post your top 10, or 5 or 3 or whatever if you can't think of 10, here.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And I'll probably watch most of them on Footballia.
> > > > > Nobody ever watched any excellent football matches then? Or is it just taking people ages to decide what order to put them in or whatever?
> > > > >
> > > > > I've run out of matches I know are likely to be good to watch on Footballia. Can anyone give me any recommendations?
> > > > 2004 Liverpool 3-1 Olympiakos
> > > > 2005 Liverpool 3-3 Milan
> > > > 2016 Liverpool 3-2 Dortmund
> > > > 2019 Liverpool 4-0 Barcelona
> > > > 2023 Liverpool 7-0 Man Utd
> > > >
> > > > I'll think of 5 more.
> > > One I quite enjoyed was:
> > >
> > > 1984 Independiente 1 Liverpool 0. I thought Liverpool played quite well by English standards actually.
> > Those "English standards" had led to an English club winning 7 out of 8 European Cups coming into that game.
> Just when the standard of football in Europe was so low that European Clubs won 0 out of 8 World Club Championships.

It was a Mickey Mouse cup that they didn't take seriously.

> This was also followed by a run of 13 consecutive years without an English club even reaching the Final of the European Cup, from 1986 to 1998.

I thought we were talking about 1984.

> >
> > Now you are well aware that at the time, English clubs treated this game as a little more than a friendly. They were probably out drinking sake until 4am the night before.
> If they're too unprofessional to even take the World Championship of the World's number 1 sport seriously, that's their problem.

They were very professional in their domestic and European leagues. It was these meaningless friendlies in Japan that were treated more like boondoggles.

On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 7:42:11 AM UTC-4, Blueshirt wrote:
> Mark wrote:
>
> > On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 1:06:56 PM UTC, Al Kamista wrote:
> > >
> > > Now you are well aware that at the time, English clubs treated this
> > > game as a little more than a friendly. They were probably out
> > > drinking sake until 4am the night before.
> >
> > If they're too unprofessional to even take the World Championship of
> > the World's number 1 sport seriously, that's their problem.
> That's one point of view and it could be justified... but the fact is a
> lot of European clubs didn't take it seriously, whatever the reason.
> FIFA themselves didn't even acknowledge it until recent times so it was
> hardly the "World Championship" if football's own governing body didn't
> regulate it!

Besides no one outside of Europe and South America was invited to participate up till 2004. They were "world champions" as much as the baseball World Series winners are world champions.

On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 10:37:42 AM UTC+2, Mark wrote:
> What are the top 10 best football matches you've ever seen? Post your top 10, or 5 or 3 or whatever if you can't think of 10, here.
>
> And I'll probably watch most of them on Footballia.

Bing Chatbot

Searching for: ‘best soccer matches of all time’

Generating answers for you…

“There have been many great soccer matches throughout history. Some of the best matches include Argentina vs England in the 1986 World Cup (1 https://www.bing.com/search?q=best+soccer+matches+of+all+time&toWww=1&redig=72C463AF753249788F0B34E51D0A6B4D), Brazil vs Italy in the 1970 World Cup Final (2 https://www.eurosport.com/football/10-of-the-greatest-football-matches-ever-played_sto6086406/story.shtml), Liverpool vs AC Milan in the 2005 Champions League Final (2 https://www.thetoptens.com/soccer/football-soccer-matches/), and Manchester United vs Bayern Munich in 19993. These are just a few examples of some of the greatest soccer matches of all time.”

On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 4:22:21 PM UTC, Al Kamista wrote:
> On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 5:57:05 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
> > On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 1:06:56 PM UTC, Al Kamista wrote:
> > > On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 4:12:01 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 5:04:44 PM UTC, Al Kamista wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 6:41:23 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 8:37:42 AM UTC, Mark wrote:
> > > > > > > What are the top 10 best football matches you've ever seen? Post your top 10, or 5 or 3 or whatever if you can't think of 10, here.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And I'll probably watch most of them on Footballia.
> > > > > > Nobody ever watched any excellent football matches then? Or is it just taking people ages to decide what order to put them in or whatever?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've run out of matches I know are likely to be good to watch on Footballia. Can anyone give me any recommendations?
> > > > > 2004 Liverpool 3-1 Olympiakos
> > > > > 2005 Liverpool 3-3 Milan
> > > > > 2016 Liverpool 3-2 Dortmund
> > > > > 2019 Liverpool 4-0 Barcelona
> > > > > 2023 Liverpool 7-0 Man Utd
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll think of 5 more.
> > > > One I quite enjoyed was:
> > > >
> > > > 1984 Independiente 1 Liverpool 0. I thought Liverpool played quite well by English standards actually.
> > > Those "English standards" had led to an English club winning 7 out of 8 European Cups coming into that game.
> > Just when the standard of football in Europe was so low that European Clubs won 0 out of 8 World Club Championships.
> It was a Mickey Mouse cup that they didn't take seriously.

If the World Championship is a Mickey Mouse Cup, what does that make the Championship of England, just part of a country?

> > This was also followed by a run of 13 consecutive years without an English club even reaching the Final of the European Cup, from 1986 to 1998.
> I thought we were talking about 1984.

I'm too young to remember that. I was thinking of the standards in the late 80s and early 90s.
> > >
> > > Now you are well aware that at the time, English clubs treated this game as a little more than a friendly. They were probably out drinking sake until 4am the night before.
> > If they're too unprofessional to even take the World Championship of the World's number 1 sport seriously, that's their problem.
> They were very professional in their domestic and European leagues. It was these meaningless friendlies in Japan that were treated more like boondoggles.

On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:11:57 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
> On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 4:22:21 PM UTC, Al Kamista wrote:
> > On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 5:57:05 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
> > > On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 1:06:56 PM UTC, Al Kamista wrote:
> > > > On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 4:12:01 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 5:04:44 PM UTC, Al Kamista wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 6:41:23 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 8:37:42 AM UTC, Mark wrote:
> > > > > > > > What are the top 10 best football matches you've ever seen? Post your top 10, or 5 or 3 or whatever if you can't think of 10, here.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > And I'll probably watch most of them on Footballia.
> > > > > > > Nobody ever watched any excellent football matches then? Or is it just taking people ages to decide what order to put them in or whatever?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've run out of matches I know are likely to be good to watch on Footballia. Can anyone give me any recommendations?
> > > > > > 2004 Liverpool 3-1 Olympiakos
> > > > > > 2005 Liverpool 3-3 Milan
> > > > > > 2016 Liverpool 3-2 Dortmund
> > > > > > 2019 Liverpool 4-0 Barcelona
> > > > > > 2023 Liverpool 7-0 Man Utd
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'll think of 5 more.
> > > > > One I quite enjoyed was:
> > > > >
> > > > > 1984 Independiente 1 Liverpool 0. I thought Liverpool played quite well by English standards actually.
> > > > Those "English standards" had led to an English club winning 7 out of 8 European Cups coming into that game.
> > > Just when the standard of football in Europe was so low that European Clubs won 0 out of 8 World Club Championships.
> > It was a Mickey Mouse cup that they didn't take seriously.
> If the World Championship is a Mickey Mouse Cup, what does that make the Championship of England, just part of a country?

The second most prestigious club competition in the world, after the UCL.

Whether you like it or not, that's the truth.

> > > This was also followed by a run of 13 consecutive years without an English club even reaching the Final of the European Cup, from 1986 to 1998.
> > I thought we were talking about 1984.
> I'm too young to remember that. I was thinking of the standards in the late 80s and early 90s.

OK, but the standards of the early 80s would be more relevant to 1984 than those of the late 80s or early 90s, wouldn't you think?

On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 10:07:53 PM UTC+1, Al Kamista wrote:
> On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:11:57 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:

> > If the World Championship is a Mickey Mouse Cup, what does that make the Championship of England, just part of a country?
> The second most prestigious club competition in the world, after the UCL.
>
> Whether you like it or not, that's the truth.

Have you got any evidence to back that up?

Mark wrote:

> On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 10:07:53 PM UTC+1, Al Kamista wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:11:57 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
>
> > > If the World Championship is a Mickey Mouse Cup, what does that
> > > make the Championship of England, just part of a country?
> > The second most prestigious club competition in the world, after
> > the UCL.
> >
> > Whether you like it or not, that's the truth.
>
> Have you got any evidence to back that up?

Look and you will see evidence... if you close your eyes to an idea you
will see nothing!

It was a bold claim mind you, I'm not sure I'd have gone THAT far!
There's arguments for and against. But as you're someone who thinks the
[English] Premier League is not one of the top five leagues and a
one-off friendly in Japan is the biggest thing since sliced bread then
you'd probably not understand anyway.

On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 10:14:10 PM UTC+1, Blueshirt wrote:
> Mark wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 10:07:53 PM UTC+1, Al Kamista wrote:
> > > On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:11:57 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
> >
> > > > If the World Championship is a Mickey Mouse Cup, what does that
> > > > make the Championship of England, just part of a country?
> > > The second most prestigious club competition in the world, after
> > > the UCL.
> > >
> > > Whether you like it or not, that's the truth.
> >
> > Have you got any evidence to back that up?
> Look and you will see evidence... if you close your eyes to an idea you
> will see nothing!

I'm looking right here, and I don't see any.
>
> It was a bold claim mind you, I'm not sure I'd have gone THAT far!

Exactly! Years ago, the English media were telling us that the English Cup was more important than the European Cup. Now they've got Al Kamista believing the English League is the 2nd most prestigious club tournament in the World, in spite of being less prestigious than the European Cup. Isn't it about time people stopped believing the hype?!

> There's arguments for and against. But as you're someone who thinks the
> [English] Premier League is not one of the top five leagues and a
> one-off friendly in Japan is the biggest thing since sliced bread then
> you'd probably not understand anyway.

It wasn't a one-off friendly. It was the World Championship.

On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 4:37:42 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
> What are the top 10 best football matches you've ever seen? Post your top 10, or 5 or 3 or whatever if you can't think of 10, here.
>
> And I'll probably watch most of them on Footballia.

Italy vs Brazil World Cup 1982
France vs Germany World Cup 1982
France vs Portugal Euro 84
England vs Netherlands Euro 88
Germany vs Netherlands Euro 88
England vs Germany Euro 96

some lesser known games:
Mönchengladbach vs Real Madrid (home and away) UEFA Cup 1985
Kaiserslautern vs Barcelona 1991, European Cup, return game
Werder vs Anderlecht Champions League 1993, high drama
Real Madrid vs Barcelona, Copa del Rey final 1983

On 2023-03-28 01:06, Mark wrote:
> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 10:14:10 PM UTC+1, Blueshirt wrote:
>> Mark wrote:
>>
>>> On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 10:07:53 PM UTC+1, Al Kamista wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 4:11:57 AM UTC-4, Mark wrote:
>>>
>>>>> If the World Championship is a Mickey Mouse Cup, what does that
>>>>> make the Championship of England, just part of a country?
>>>> The second most prestigious club competition in the world, after
>>>> the UCL.
>>>>
>>>> Whether you like it or not, that's the truth.
>>>
>>> Have you got any evidence to back that up?
>> Look and you will see evidence... if you close your eyes to an idea you
>> will see nothing!
>
> I'm looking right here, and I don't see any.
>>
>> It was a bold claim mind you, I'm not sure I'd have gone THAT far!
>
> Exactly! Years ago, the English media were telling us that the English Cup was more important than the European Cup.

When ? You must be talking a LONG time ago. WInning the European cup
has been a high priority for English teams at least since the mid 60s.
(Arguably even before, going back to Busby)

Now they've got Al Kamista believing the English League is the 2nd most
prestigious club tournament in the World, in spite of being less
prestigious than the European Cup. Isn't it about time people stopped
believing the hype?!

The EPL, for all its faults, is the most watched domestic league in the
world. That is why they get the biggest TV contracts - there is a huge
audience in Asia and elsewhere for the league. That is part of the 2nd
most prestigious argument

Secondly, the EPL is the top ranked league in UEFA right now and has
been for several years (and close to half of the last 20 years) with
only Spain as a serious rival.

The English league has provided more DIFFERENT European Cup/Champions
league winners and finalists than any other league. (England 5
different champs, Germany 3, Spain 2, Italy 3) Different Finalists:
England 9, Spain 4, Germany 6, Italy 6

Surely the above is evidence of both historical and current prestige for
any reasonable person.

>
>> There's arguments for and against. But as you're someone who thinks the
>> [English] Premier League is not one of the top five leagues and a
>> one-off friendly in Japan is the biggest thing since sliced bread then
>> you'd probably not understand anyway.
>
> It wasn't a one-off friendly. It was the World Championship.

It was emphatically NOT the world championship. It was the
Intercontinental Cup (marred by frequent violence and teams boycotting)
then the Toyota cup. Only Libertadores winners and European cup winners
were participating (how can that be a world championship ?) and in many
cases it was actually the loser of the EC final that agreed to compete
(in the old Intercontinental version - with home and away legs)

You can only start calling this the world championship in any sense once
it opened up to the winners of every continental cup tournament. But
even then, that is like saying the confederations cup was a bona fide
world championship, which I don't think a lot of people would agree with.

On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 6:49:09 PM UTC+1, MH wrote:
> On 2023-03-28 01:06, Mark wrote:

> > Exactly! Years ago, the English media were telling us that the English Cup was more important than the European Cup.
> When ? You must be talking a LONG time ago. WInning the European cup
> has been a high priority for English teams at least since the mid 60s.
> (Arguably even before, going back to Busby)

At least as recently as the 1980s.
> Now they've got Al Kamista believing the English League is the 2nd most
> prestigious club tournament in the World, in spite of being less
> prestigious than the European Cup. Isn't it about time people stopped
> believing the hype?!
> The EPL, for all its faults, is the most watched domestic league in the
> world. That is why they get the biggest TV contracts - there is a huge
> audience in Asia and elsewhere for the league. That is part of the 2nd
> most prestigious argument
>
> Secondly, the EPL is the top ranked league in UEFA right now and has
> been for several years (and close to half of the last 20 years) with
> only Spain as a serious rival.
>
> The English league has provided more DIFFERENT European Cup/Champions
> league winners and finalists than any other league. (England 5
> different champs, Germany 3, Spain 2, Italy 3) Different Finalists:
> England 9, Spain 4, Germany 6, Italy 6
>
> Surely the above is evidence of both historical and current prestige for
> any reasonable person.

OK, it hardly makes it more prestigious than the Copa Libertadores or the Copa Sudamericana though. And what about all the different winners and finalists in the Copa Libertadores and World Club Championship from the Argentinian and Brazilian Leagues?

And popularity doesn't necessarily equate to prestige.
> >
> >> There's arguments for and against. But as you're someone who thinks the
> >> [English] Premier League is not one of the top five leagues and a
> >> one-off friendly in Japan is the biggest thing since sliced bread then
> >> you'd probably not understand anyway.
> >
> > It wasn't a one-off friendly. It was the World Championship.
> It was emphatically NOT the world championship. It was the
> Intercontinental Cup (marred by frequent violence and teams boycotting)
> then the Toyota cup. Only Libertadores winners and European cup winners
> were participating (how can that be a world championship ?) and in many
> cases it was actually the loser of the EC final that agreed to compete
> (in the old Intercontinental version - with home and away legs)
>
> You can only start calling this the world championship in any sense once
> it opened up to the winners of every continental cup tournament. But
> even then, that is like saying the confederations cup was a bona fide
> world championship, which I don't think a lot of people would agree with.

But Europe and South America have pretty much all the best teams. And all the winners have been declared as de facto World Champions or something by FIFA. And it was usually (or at least sometimes) referred to by the media as the World Club Championship. If (for some non-sexist, pragmatic) reason, the World Chess Championship was only open to men, would that make that a significantly less valid World Championship, when all the top chess players in the World are men?

On 2023-03-29 01:19, Mark wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 6:49:09 PM UTC+1, MH wrote:
>> On 2023-03-28 01:06, Mark wrote:
>
>>> Exactly! Years ago, the English media were telling us that the English Cup was more important than the European Cup.
>> When ? You must be talking a LONG time ago. WInning the European cup
>> has been a high priority for English teams at least since the mid 60s.
>> (Arguably even before, going back to Busby)
>
> At least as recently as the 1980s.

?? I guess you don't remember the fuss made about Celtic and then Man
United winning in the 60s ? Especially United, given that Busby was
knighted while Stein was not.
>
SNIP

>> Secondly, the EPL is the top ranked league in UEFA right now and has
>> been for several years (and close to half of the last 20 years) with
>> only Spain as a serious rival.
>>
>> The English league has provided more DIFFERENT European Cup/Champions
>> league winners and finalists than any other league. (England 5
>> different champs, Germany 3, Spain 2, Italy 3) Different Finalists:
>> England 9, Spain 4, Germany 6, Italy 6
>>
>> Surely the above is evidence of both historical and current prestige for
>> any reasonable person.
>
> OK, it hardly makes it more prestigious than the Copa Libertadores or the Copa Sudamericana though. has to

Yes it does. All the best S. American players are flooding to Europe,
with the EPL the most popular destination. More EPL players were
involved in the World Cup than any other league too. So if more of the
best players are playing in a league, the league's prestige is high.

Sure, a lot of this has to do with money. We can wish it otherwise, but
it won't change. Why does the EPL have the most money? Because more
people are willing to pay to watch, to buy advertising etc. Successful
marketing is a part of that, but so is prestige.

And what about all the different winners and finalists in the Copa
Libertadores and World Club Championship from the Argentinian and
Brazilian Leagues?

Who cares except the supporters of those clubs ? The LIbertadores
champs have a dismal record in recent times vs. the UCL winners, on
neutral ground. Not their fault, because the best players pick up and
leave if they attract notice because their team did well in the league
and Libertadores. So there is no continuity - while this makes for
more balanced leagues with more surprises in who wins them, the overall
quality does not compare to any of the top 6-8 leagues in Europe.
>
> And popularity doesn't necessarily equate to prestige.

It is a huge part of it. Why do Europeans flock to play in the NHL and
NBA ? Prestige and money.

>>>
>>>> There's arguments for and against. But as you're someone who thinks the
>>>> [English] Premier League is not one of the top five leagues and a
>>>> one-off friendly in Japan is the biggest thing since sliced bread then
>>>> you'd probably not understand anyway.
>>>
>>> It wasn't a one-off friendly. It was the World Championship.
>> It was emphatically NOT the world championship. It was the
>> Intercontinental Cup (marred by frequent violence and teams boycotting)
>> then the Toyota cup. Only Libertadores winners and European cup winners
>> were participating (how can that be a world championship ?) and in many
>> cases it was actually the loser of the EC final that agreed to compete
>> (in the old Intercontinental version - with home and away legs)
>>
>> You can only start calling this the world championship in any sense once
>> it opened up to the winners of every continental cup tournament. But
>> even then, that is like saying the confederations cup was a bona fide
>> world championship, which I don't think a lot of people would agree with.
>
> But Europe and South America have pretty much all the best teams.

The success of Mexican teams in the Libertadores speaks against this,
and MLS teams have achieved parity or better with LigaMX in recent years.

And all the winners have been declared as de facto World Champions or
something by FIFA. And it was usually (or at least sometimes) referred
to by the media as the World Club Championship. If (for some non-sexist,
pragmatic) reason, the World Chess Championship was only open to men,
would that make that a significantly less valid World Championship, when
all the top chess players in the World are men?

Mark wrote:

> On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 10:14:10 PM UTC+1, Blueshirt wrote:
>
> > There's arguments for and against. But as you're someone who thinks
> > the [English] Premier League is not one of the top five leagues and
> > a one-off friendly in Japan is the biggest thing since sliced bread
> > then you'd probably not understand anyway.
>
> It wasn't a one-off friendly. It was the World Championship.

Played by teams from only two continents! How can it be a "world"
championship if teams from Africa, Asia, Oceania and North America
wasn't in it? You are aware that there are more than two continents on
this Earth I assume?

It was a glorified friendly organised [originally] by UEFA & CONMEBOL.
The best football teams from other confederations never got a chance to
see if they were the best team in the World, so the Intercontinental
Cup didn't constitute a proper "World Championship". You can disagree
as much as you want to but it doesn't change the reality; two
continents is not the world!

Mark wrote:

> On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 6:49:09 PM UTC+1, MH wrote:
> >
> > You can only start calling this the world championship in any sense
> > once it opened up to the winners of every continental cup
> > tournament. But even then, that is like saying the confederations
> > cup was a bona fide world championship, which I don't think a lot
> > of people would agree with.
>
> But Europe and South America have pretty much all the best teams.

What criteria do YOU use to judge that? If football teams from the
other continents could not compete and prove themselves in [your so
called] prestigious world championship how do you know that your
statement is true? It can only be an assumption. Which may or may not
be correct.

How do you know that (for example) the New York Cosmos of the mid
1970's wouldn't have given some European or South American team a run
for their money in a world tournament? You don't and can never know for
sure.