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sport / rec.autos.sport.f1 / Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Question

SubjectAuthor
* Haas Rebranding Technical QuestionD Munz
+- Re: Haas Rebranding Technical QuestionDarryl Johnson
+* Re: Haas Rebranding Technical QuestionAlan
|`- Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Questiontexas gate
+* Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Questionalister
|`* Re: Haas Rebranding Technical QuestionDarryl Johnson
| +* Re: Haas Rebranding Technical QuestionSir Tim
| |+- Re: Haas Rebranding Technical QuestionAlan
| |`- Re: Haas Rebranding Technical QuestionBigbird
| `- Re: Haas Rebranding Technical QuestionAlan
`* Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Questionkeithr0
 `- Re: Haas Rebranding Technical QuestionAlan

1
Haas Rebranding Technical Question

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Subject: Haas Rebranding Technical Question
From: dlm...@gmail.com (D Munz)
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 by: D Munz - Fri, 25 Feb 2022 16:29 UTC

First, let me say that the invasion of the Ukraine is terrible and the Russian (and Putin's) aggression must be punished. I sit in the US where we wring our hands over a few pennies in raised gas prices which is trivial compared to the suffering in the Ukraine and potentially more of europe. So it does seem a little insensitive to ponder sporting issues.
On the other hand, this is a forum about F1, not geopolitics and IMHO, while we can't put blinders on to world events, continuing our discussions about the sport we love is worthwhile.

So...

Hass striping down their car remove the sponsor and colors has me intrigued from a technical/practical standpoint. I naively assumed that most of the color on an F1 car was painted. From the media coverage, it sounds like it's actually decals.

In F1, where every bit of aero is factored in, do the decals and coloring make any real difference? I know a logo or two isn't much but the entirety of the red and blue on the Haas cars seems like it might be quite a bit (the weight of the tape, the impact of the few millimeters in surface elevation changes across the car etc.)

I guess to put it more succinctly, would a Haas car without all the color and branding have an advantage over one that is fully kitted out?

Or is not really that big a deal?

FWIW
DLM

Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Question

<svb14h$sq6$1@dont-email.me>

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From: darryl_j...@rogers.com (Darryl Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Question
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 11:48:04 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Darryl Johnson - Fri, 25 Feb 2022 16:48 UTC

On 2022-02-25 11:29 AM, D Munz wrote:
> First, let me say that the invasion of the Ukraine is terrible and the Russian (and Putin's) aggression must be punished. I sit in the US where we wring our hands over a few pennies in raised gas prices which is trivial compared to the suffering in the Ukraine and potentially more of europe. So it does seem a little insensitive to ponder sporting issues.
> On the other hand, this is a forum about F1, not geopolitics and IMHO, while we can't put blinders on to world events, continuing our discussions about the sport we love is worthwhile.
>
> So...
>
> Hass striping down their car remove the sponsor and colors has me intrigued from a technical/practical standpoint. I naively assumed that most of the color on an F1 car was painted. From the media coverage, it sounds like it's actually decals.
>
> In F1, where every bit of aero is factored in, do the decals and coloring make any real difference? I know a logo or two isn't much but the entirety of the red and blue on the Haas cars seems like it might be quite a bit (the weight of the tape, the impact of the few millimeters in surface elevation changes across the car etc.)
>
> I guess to put it more succinctly, would a Haas car without all the color and branding have an advantage over one that is fully kitted out?
>
> Or is not really that big a deal?
>
> FWIW
> DLM

I would have thought that it wouldn't take much to just respray the
paint on the car.

Okay, they'd want to strip off the previous paint to keep the weight
down, but I'm sure they would have chemical paint strippers available.

On the other hand, I wonder if there would be equipment available to
them to do all that. At the factory, sure, but at a track, maybe not.

And it is just testing. They likely have more to worry about than a few
tenths worth of aero.

Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Question

<svbc2n$efh$7@dont-email.me>

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Question
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 11:52:54 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Alan - Fri, 25 Feb 2022 19:52 UTC

On 2022-02-25 8:29 a.m., D Munz wrote:
> First, let me say that the invasion of the Ukraine is terrible and the Russian (and Putin's) aggression must be punished. I sit in the US where we wring our hands over a few pennies in raised gas prices which is trivial compared to the suffering in the Ukraine and potentially more of europe. So it does seem a little insensitive to ponder sporting issues.
> On the other hand, this is a forum about F1, not geopolitics and IMHO, while we can't put blinders on to world events, continuing our discussions about the sport we love is worthwhile.
>
> So...
>
> Hass striping down their car remove the sponsor and colors has me intrigued from a technical/practical standpoint. I naively assumed that most of the color on an F1 car was painted. From the media coverage, it sounds like it's actually decals.
>
> In F1, where every bit of aero is factored in, do the decals and coloring make any real difference? I know a logo or two isn't much but the entirety of the red and blue on the Haas cars seems like it might be quite a bit (the weight of the tape, the impact of the few millimeters in surface elevation changes across the car etc.)
>
> I guess to put it more succinctly, would a Haas car without all the color and branding have an advantage over one that is fully kitted out?
>
> Or is not really that big a deal?

I doubt it's a big deal except in a few very limited locations (where I
would be they avoid placing the edge of a decal).

Do a little googling about the "boundary layer".

:-)

Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Question

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Subject: Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Question
From: texasg...@gmail.com (texas gate)
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 by: texas gate - Fri, 25 Feb 2022 19:59 UTC

On Friday, February 25, 2022 at 12:52:57 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:

> Do a little googling about the "boundary layer".

fuck you
you fucking cunt

Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Question

<svbe6p$bf8$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: alister....@ntlworld.com (alister)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Question
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 20:29:13 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: alister - Fri, 25 Feb 2022 20:29 UTC

On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:29:48 -0800 (PST), D Munz wrote:

> First, let me say that the invasion of the Ukraine is terrible and the
> Russian (and Putin's) aggression must be punished. I sit in the US where
> we wring our hands over a few pennies in raised gas prices which is
> trivial compared to the suffering in the Ukraine and potentially more of
> europe. So it does seem a little insensitive to ponder sporting issues.
> On the other hand, this is a forum about F1, not geopolitics and IMHO,
> while we can't put blinders on to world events, continuing our
> discussions about the sport we love is worthwhile.
>
> So...
>
> Hass striping down their car remove the sponsor and colors has me
> intrigued from a technical/practical standpoint. I naively assumed that
> most of the color on an F1 car was painted. From the media coverage, it
> sounds like it's actually decals.
>
> In F1, where every bit of aero is factored in, do the decals and
> coloring make any real difference? I know a logo or two isn't much but
> the entirety of the red and blue on the Haas cars seems like it might be
> quite a bit (the weight of the tape, the impact of the few millimeters
> in surface elevation changes across the car etc.)
>
> I guess to put it more succinctly, would a Haas car without all the
> color and branding have an advantage over one that is fully kitted out?
>
> Or is not really that big a deal?
>
> FWIW DLM

Considering cars carry balast to meet minimum weight then I doubt that
decals/paintwork is going to be significant

as to the elevation changes from decals, I am surprised that F1 are not
already using "Shark Skin*" as it has been proven to significantly reduce
drag.

*A fine rough surface designed to cause predictable boundary layer
separation, this is the science behind golf ball dimples.

--
It's pretty hard to tell what does bring happiness; poverty and wealth
have both failed.
-- Kim Hubbard

Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Question

<svbego$4f7$1@dont-email.me>

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From: darryl_j...@rogers.com (Darryl Johnson)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Question
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 15:36:29 -0500
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Darryl Johnson - Fri, 25 Feb 2022 20:36 UTC

On 2022-02-25 3:29 PM, alister wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:29:48 -0800 (PST), D Munz wrote:
>
>> First, let me say that the invasion of the Ukraine is terrible and the
>> Russian (and Putin's) aggression must be punished. I sit in the US where
>> we wring our hands over a few pennies in raised gas prices which is
>> trivial compared to the suffering in the Ukraine and potentially more of
>> europe. So it does seem a little insensitive to ponder sporting issues.
>> On the other hand, this is a forum about F1, not geopolitics and IMHO,
>> while we can't put blinders on to world events, continuing our
>> discussions about the sport we love is worthwhile.
>>
>> So...
>>
>> Hass striping down their car remove the sponsor and colors has me
>> intrigued from a technical/practical standpoint. I naively assumed that
>> most of the color on an F1 car was painted. From the media coverage, it
>> sounds like it's actually decals.
>>
>> In F1, where every bit of aero is factored in, do the decals and
>> coloring make any real difference? I know a logo or two isn't much but
>> the entirety of the red and blue on the Haas cars seems like it might be
>> quite a bit (the weight of the tape, the impact of the few millimeters
>> in surface elevation changes across the car etc.)
>>
>> I guess to put it more succinctly, would a Haas car without all the
>> color and branding have an advantage over one that is fully kitted out?
>>
>> Or is not really that big a deal?
>>
>> FWIW DLM
>
> Considering cars carry balast to meet minimum weight then I doubt that
> decals/paintwork is going to be significant
>
> as to the elevation changes from decals, I am surprised that F1 are not
> already using "Shark Skin*" as it has been proven to significantly reduce
> drag.
>
> *A fine rough surface designed to cause predictable boundary layer
> separation, this is the science behind golf ball dimples.
>
>
>
>

I recall reading, some years back, about one of the teams (perhaps
Mercedes or Ferrari) changing their paint to get a lighter coat of paint
on the cars. I infer that *where* weight is located matters a great
deal. Ballast can be placed where it has the most -- or least -- effect
on the handling of the cars. Whereas paint has its weight higher and not
as well suited to improving the handling.

Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Question

<j7t0bcFoe5nU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: no_em...@invalid.invalid (Sir Tim)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Question
Date: 25 Feb 2022 21:34:36 GMT
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 by: Sir Tim - Fri, 25 Feb 2022 21:34 UTC

Darryl Johnson <darryl_johnson@rogers.com> wrote:
> On 2022-02-25 3:29 PM, alister wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:29:48 -0800 (PST), D Munz wrote:
>>
>>> First, let me say that the invasion of the Ukraine is terrible and the
>>> Russian (and Putin's) aggression must be punished. I sit in the US where
>>> we wring our hands over a few pennies in raised gas prices which is
>>> trivial compared to the suffering in the Ukraine and potentially more of
>>> europe. So it does seem a little insensitive to ponder sporting issues.
>>> On the other hand, this is a forum about F1, not geopolitics and IMHO,
>>> while we can't put blinders on to world events, continuing our
>>> discussions about the sport we love is worthwhile.
>>>
>>> So...
>>>
>>> Hass striping down their car remove the sponsor and colors has me
>>> intrigued from a technical/practical standpoint. I naively assumed that
>>> most of the color on an F1 car was painted. From the media coverage, it
>>> sounds like it's actually decals.
>>>
>>> In F1, where every bit of aero is factored in, do the decals and
>>> coloring make any real difference? I know a logo or two isn't much but
>>> the entirety of the red and blue on the Haas cars seems like it might be
>>> quite a bit (the weight of the tape, the impact of the few millimeters
>>> in surface elevation changes across the car etc.)
>>>
>>> I guess to put it more succinctly, would a Haas car without all the
>>> color and branding have an advantage over one that is fully kitted out?
>>>
>>> Or is not really that big a deal?
>>>
>>> FWIW DLM
>>
>> Considering cars carry balast to meet minimum weight then I doubt that
>> decals/paintwork is going to be significant
>>
>> as to the elevation changes from decals, I am surprised that F1 are not
>> already using "Shark Skin*" as it has been proven to significantly reduce
>> drag.
>>
>> *A fine rough surface designed to cause predictable boundary layer
>> separation, this is the science behind golf ball dimples.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> I recall reading, some years back, about one of the teams (perhaps
> Mercedes or Ferrari) changing their paint to get a lighter coat of paint
> on the cars. I infer that *where* weight is located matters a great
> deal. Ballast can be placed where it has the most -- or least -- effect
> on the handling of the cars. Whereas paint has its weight higher and not
> as well suited to improving the handling.
>

Legend has it that when a maximum weight limit of 750 kgs was introduced
for Grand Prix cars in 1934 the Mercedes W25 turned out to be a kilo
overweight. Supposedly the white lead-based paint was stripped off
overnight and next day the car conformed.

A good story but likely to be apocryphal IMO.
--
Sir Tim

Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Question

<svbjal$9eo$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Question
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 13:56:35 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Lines: 81
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 by: Alan - Fri, 25 Feb 2022 21:56 UTC

On 2022-02-25 1:34 p.m., Sir Tim wrote:
> Darryl Johnson <darryl_johnson@rogers.com> wrote:
>> On 2022-02-25 3:29 PM, alister wrote:
>>> On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:29:48 -0800 (PST), D Munz wrote:
>>>
>>>> First, let me say that the invasion of the Ukraine is terrible and the
>>>> Russian (and Putin's) aggression must be punished. I sit in the US where
>>>> we wring our hands over a few pennies in raised gas prices which is
>>>> trivial compared to the suffering in the Ukraine and potentially more of
>>>> europe. So it does seem a little insensitive to ponder sporting issues.
>>>> On the other hand, this is a forum about F1, not geopolitics and IMHO,
>>>> while we can't put blinders on to world events, continuing our
>>>> discussions about the sport we love is worthwhile.
>>>>
>>>> So...
>>>>
>>>> Hass striping down their car remove the sponsor and colors has me
>>>> intrigued from a technical/practical standpoint. I naively assumed that
>>>> most of the color on an F1 car was painted. From the media coverage, it
>>>> sounds like it's actually decals.
>>>>
>>>> In F1, where every bit of aero is factored in, do the decals and
>>>> coloring make any real difference? I know a logo or two isn't much but
>>>> the entirety of the red and blue on the Haas cars seems like it might be
>>>> quite a bit (the weight of the tape, the impact of the few millimeters
>>>> in surface elevation changes across the car etc.)
>>>>
>>>> I guess to put it more succinctly, would a Haas car without all the
>>>> color and branding have an advantage over one that is fully kitted out?
>>>>
>>>> Or is not really that big a deal?
>>>>
>>>> FWIW DLM
>>>
>>> Considering cars carry balast to meet minimum weight then I doubt that
>>> decals/paintwork is going to be significant
>>>
>>> as to the elevation changes from decals, I am surprised that F1 are not
>>> already using "Shark Skin*" as it has been proven to significantly reduce
>>> drag.
>>>
>>> *A fine rough surface designed to cause predictable boundary layer
>>> separation, this is the science behind golf ball dimples.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I recall reading, some years back, about one of the teams (perhaps
>> Mercedes or Ferrari) changing their paint to get a lighter coat of paint
>> on the cars. I infer that *where* weight is located matters a great
>> deal. Ballast can be placed where it has the most -- or least -- effect
>> on the handling of the cars. Whereas paint has its weight higher and not
>> as well suited to improving the handling.
>>
>
> Legend has it that when a maximum weight limit of 750 kgs was introduced
> for Grand Prix cars in 1934 the Mercedes W25 turned out to be a kilo
> overweight. Supposedly the white lead-based paint was stripped off
> overnight and next day the car conformed.
>
> A good story but likely to be apocryphal IMO.

It might be apocryphal I suppose...

....but Mercedes-Benz seems to think it's true:

'It was a simple idea in 1934 that made silver the colour of racing
success – success that persists through today. It all began on the eve
of the Eifel race at the weighing station on the Nürburgring. The
regulations allowed no vehicle to weigh more than 750 kilograms. The
brand new W 25 weighed one kilogram too much however. Alfred Neubauer,
manager of the Mercedes-Benz racing team, had the white paint ground
off, leaving a purely aluminium body that sparkled in silver. The next
morning Manfred von Brauchitsch took his seat at the wheel of the
lightened, 750 kg car and won the race with a commanding performance.
Later he was to tell the press: “To drive a Silver Arrow is an honour.”'

<https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/classic/history/mercedes-benz-silver-arrows/>

:-)

Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Question

<xn0nejvinm6d4gj005@news.eternal-september.org>

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From: bigbird....@gmail.com (Bigbird)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Question
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 22:02:29 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Bigbird - Fri, 25 Feb 2022 22:02 UTC

Sir Tim wrote:

> Darryl Johnson <darryl_johnson@rogers.com> wrote:
> > On 2022-02-25 3:29 PM, alister wrote:
> >> On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:29:48 -0800 (PST), D Munz wrote:
> >>
> >>> First, let me say that the invasion of the Ukraine is terrible
> and the >>> Russian (and Putin's) aggression must be punished. I sit
> in the US where >>> we wring our hands over a few pennies in raised
> gas prices which is >>> trivial compared to the suffering in the
> Ukraine and potentially more of >>> europe. So it does seem a little
> insensitive to ponder sporting issues. >>> On the other hand, this
> is a forum about F1, not geopolitics and IMHO, >>> while we can't put
> blinders on to world events, continuing our >>> discussions about the
> sport we love is worthwhile. >>>
> >>> So...
> >>>
> >>> Hass striping down their car remove the sponsor and colors has me
> >>> intrigued from a technical/practical standpoint. I naively
> assumed that >>> most of the color on an F1 car was painted. From the
> media coverage, it >>> sounds like it's actually decals.
> >>>
> >>> In F1, where every bit of aero is factored in, do the decals and
> >>> coloring make any real difference? I know a logo or two isn't
> much but >>> the entirety of the red and blue on the Haas cars seems
> like it might be >>> quite a bit (the weight of the tape, the impact
> of the few millimeters >>> in surface elevation changes across the
> car etc.) >>>
> >>> I guess to put it more succinctly, would a Haas car without all
> the >>> color and branding have an advantage over one that is fully
> kitted out? >>>
> >>> Or is not really that big a deal?
> >>>
> >>> FWIW DLM
> >>
> >> Considering cars carry balast to meet minimum weight then I doubt
> that >> decals/paintwork is going to be significant
> >>
> >> as to the elevation changes from decals, I am surprised that F1
> are not >> already using "Shark Skin*" as it has been proven to
> significantly reduce >> drag.
> >>
> >> *A fine rough surface designed to cause predictable boundary layer
> >> separation, this is the science behind golf ball dimples.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > I recall reading, some years back, about one of the teams (perhaps
> > Mercedes or Ferrari) changing their paint to get a lighter coat of
> > paint on the cars. I infer that where weight is located matters a
> > great deal. Ballast can be placed where it has the most -- or least
> > -- effect on the handling of the cars. Whereas paint has its weight
> > higher and not as well suited to improving the handling.
> >
>
> Legend has it that when a maximum weight limit of 750 kgs was
> introduced for Grand Prix cars in 1934 the Mercedes W25 turned out to
> be a kilo overweight. Supposedly the white lead-based paint was
> stripped off overnight and next day the car conformed.
>
> A good story but likely to be apocryphal IMO.

Yup.

https://www.racefans.net/2019/07/28/the-paint-scraping-myth-why-the-story-behind-mercedes-special-livery-isnt-true/

Daryll might note the last paragraph:

"Ironically, applying the special livery had the opposite effect on its
current cars. “I can tell you it’s definitely not making the car
lighter,” admitted Toto Wolff yesterday,... “In all the briefing sheets
prior to this weekend the engineers pointed out ‘too heavy stickers’…”

Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Question

<j7tcs0FqlvuU1@mid.individual.net>

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From: use...@account.invalid (keithr0)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Question
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 11:08:15 +1000
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 by: keithr0 - Sat, 26 Feb 2022 01:08 UTC

On 26/02/2022 2:29 am, D Munz wrote:
> First, let me say that the invasion of the Ukraine is terrible and the Russian (and Putin's) aggression must be punished. I sit in the US where we wring our hands over a few pennies in raised gas prices which is trivial compared to the suffering in the Ukraine and potentially more of europe. So it does seem a little insensitive to ponder sporting issues.
> On the other hand, this is a forum about F1, not geopolitics and IMHO, while we can't put blinders on to world events, continuing our discussions about the sport we love is worthwhile.
>
> So...
>
> Hass striping down their car remove the sponsor and colors has me intrigued from a technical/practical standpoint. I naively assumed that most of the color on an F1 car was painted. From the media coverage, it sounds like it's actually decals.
>
> In F1, where every bit of aero is factored in, do the decals and coloring make any real difference? I know a logo or two isn't much but the entirety of the red and blue on the Haas cars seems like it might be quite a bit (the weight of the tape, the impact of the few millimeters in surface elevation changes across the car etc.)
>
> I guess to put it more succinctly, would a Haas car without all the color and branding have an advantage over one that is fully kitted out?
>
> Or is not really that big a deal?
>
> FWIW
> DLM
Are the cars actually painted, or do they use a vinyl wrap?

Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Question

<svbur7$1eke$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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https://www.novabbs.com/sport/article-flat.php?id=15911&group=rec.autos.sport.f1#15911

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From: nop...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Question
Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 17:13:10 -0800
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 by: Alan - Sat, 26 Feb 2022 01:13 UTC

On 2022-02-25 5:08 p.m., keithr0 wrote:
> On 26/02/2022 2:29 am, D Munz wrote:
>> First, let me say that the invasion of the Ukraine is terrible and the
>> Russian (and Putin's) aggression must be punished. I sit in the US
>> where we wring our hands over a few pennies in raised gas prices which
>> is trivial compared to the suffering in the Ukraine and potentially
>> more of europe. So it does seem a little insensitive to ponder
>> sporting issues.
>> On the other hand, this is a forum about F1, not geopolitics and IMHO,
>> while we can't put blinders on to world events, continuing our
>> discussions about the sport we love is worthwhile.
>>
>> So...
>>
>> Hass striping down their car remove the sponsor and colors has me
>> intrigued from a technical/practical standpoint. I naively assumed
>> that most of the color on an F1 car was painted. From the media
>> coverage, it sounds like it's actually decals.
>>
>> In F1, where every bit of aero is factored in, do the decals and
>> coloring make any real difference? I know a logo or two isn't much but
>> the entirety of the red and blue on the Haas cars seems like it might
>> be quite a bit (the weight of the tape, the impact of the few
>> millimeters in surface elevation changes across the car etc.)
>>
>> I guess to put it more succinctly, would a Haas car without all the
>> color and branding have an advantage over one that is fully kitted out?
>>
>> Or is not really that big a deal?
>>
>> FWIW
>> DLM
> Are the cars actually painted, or do they use a vinyl wrap?

There's a good possibility that they're wrapped at the moment, because
the sponsor packages aren't yet finalized.

I saw a series of YouTube videos that Mercedes did where they repainted
the cars between races.

Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Question

<sve08r$5q9$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
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Subject: Re: Haas Rebranding Technical Question
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2022 11:49:45 -0800
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: Alan - Sat, 26 Feb 2022 19:49 UTC

On 2022-02-25 12:36 p.m., Darryl Johnson wrote:
> On 2022-02-25 3:29 PM, alister wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Feb 2022 08:29:48 -0800 (PST), D Munz wrote:
>>
>>> First, let me say that the invasion of the Ukraine is terrible and the
>>> Russian (and Putin's) aggression must be punished. I sit in the US where
>>> we wring our hands over a few pennies in raised gas prices which is
>>> trivial compared to the suffering in the Ukraine and potentially more of
>>> europe. So it does seem a little insensitive to ponder sporting issues.
>>> On the other hand, this is a forum about F1, not geopolitics and IMHO,
>>> while we can't put blinders on to world events, continuing our
>>> discussions about the sport we love is worthwhile.
>>>
>>> So...
>>>
>>> Hass striping down their car remove the sponsor and colors has me
>>> intrigued from a technical/practical standpoint. I naively assumed that
>>> most of the color on an F1 car was painted. From the media coverage, it
>>> sounds like it's actually decals.
>>>
>>> In F1, where every bit of aero is factored in, do the decals and
>>> coloring make any real difference? I know a logo or two isn't much but
>>> the entirety of the red and blue on the Haas cars seems like it might be
>>> quite a bit (the weight of the tape, the impact of the few millimeters
>>> in surface elevation changes across the car etc.)
>>>
>>> I guess to put it more succinctly, would a Haas car without all the
>>> color and branding have an advantage over one that is fully kitted out?
>>>
>>> Or is not really that big a deal?
>>>
>>> FWIW DLM
>>
>> Considering cars carry balast to meet minimum weight then I doubt that
>> decals/paintwork is going to be significant
>>
>> as to the elevation changes from decals, I am surprised that F1 are not
>> already using "Shark Skin*" as it has been proven to significantly reduce
>> drag.
>>
>> *A fine rough surface designed to cause predictable boundary layer
>> separation, this is the science behind golf ball dimples.
>>
>>
>>
>
> I recall reading, some years back, about one of the teams (perhaps
> Mercedes or Ferrari) changing their paint to get a lighter coat of paint
> on the cars. I infer that *where* weight is located matters a great
> deal. Ballast can be placed where it has the most -- or least -- effect
> on the handling of the cars. Whereas paint has its weight higher and not
> as well suited to improving the handling.

But you're talking about deltas.

Lets say the paint masses 5kg total. The cars mass a minimum of 795kg,
so the paint 0.6% of the total mass.

Even if you stripped the car bare, you're just not going to move the
centre of mass enough for anyone to notice.

CoM height for an F1 car is probably around the wheel axle height or a
bit higher (it's hard to get all of the engine and its ancillaries
packaged to get it lower than that); call it 360mm.

If all the paint was in a can at the top of the airbox (950mm by
regulation) and you moved it to the bottom.

You'd have ((5*950)+(790*360))/795 = 363mm centre of mass height.

Now strip the paint and put the 5 kg at the very bottom of the car (say
50mm from the road surface):

((5*50)+(790*360))/795 = 358mm

5mm of shift.

And that is a completely impossible thought experiment.

For a realistic look at it, you're probably going to shift the centre of
mass by less than 2mm

1
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