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sport / rec.autos.sport.f1 / Well... ...I got that wrong.

SubjectAuthor
* Well... ...I got that wrong.Alan
+- Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.XYXPDQ
+* Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.Bigbird
|+- Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.Alan
|+* Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.~misfit~
||+* Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.D Munz
|||`- Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.Alan
||+* Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.Slang
|||`* Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.alister
||| +- Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.Slang
||| `* Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.~misfit~
|||  +- Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.texas gate
|||  +- Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.texas gate
|||  `* Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.~misfit~
|||   +* Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.keithr0
|||   |`* Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.~misfit~
|||   | +- Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.geoff
|||   | `* Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.keithr0
|||   |  `- Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.Slang
|||   `* Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.Slang
|||    `* Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.~misfit~
|||     `- Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.Slang
||`- Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.texas gate
|`- Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.Mark Jackson
`- Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.geoff

1
Well... ...I got that wrong.

<t153si$o0a$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Well... ...I got that wrong.
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 10:28:48 -0700
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 by: Alan - Sat, 19 Mar 2022 17:28 UTC

I thought Mercedes might be sandbagging...

....but weirdly, it looks like their problem might be engine power...

....and I don't think anyone really expected that.

Just look at the results from an engine perspective:

1. Ferrari

2. Red Bull / Honda

3. Ferrari

4. Red Bull / Honda

5. Mercedes

6. Ferrari

7. Ferrari

8. Renault

9. Mercedes

10. Red Bull / Honda

....

The speed trap data for qualifying I can't find, but in FP3, it looks
like this:

https://preview.redd.it/3m4vii1inco81.png?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=c85bd3dd8716077bb798061c217670f9a51b9d44

The fastest Mercedes-powered car was the Williams and it was down
something like 15kph on the Red Bull.

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

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Subject: Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.
From: qwrtz...@gmail.com (XYXPDQ)
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 by: XYXPDQ - Sat, 19 Mar 2022 20:59 UTC

Ferrari seem to start the year strong and then not improve as much as other teams; but it does look like their engines have finally recovered from DQ all those seasons ago.

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

<xn0nfkf0qdt8kul003@news.eternal-september.org>

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From: bigbird....@gmail.com (Bigbird)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 22:32:19 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Bigbird - Sat, 19 Mar 2022 22:32 UTC

Alan wrote:

> I thought Mercedes might be sandbagging...
>
> ...but weirdly, it looks like their problem might be engine power...
>
> ...and I don't think anyone really expected that.
>
> Just look at the results from an engine perspective:
>
> 1. Ferrari
> 2. Red Bull / Honda
> 3. Ferrari
> 4. Red Bull / Honda
> 5. Mercedes
> 6. Ferrari
> 7. Ferrari
> 8. Renault
> 9. Mercedes
> 10. Red Bull / Honda
>

The full picture highlights possible Mercedes PT weakness

11 RENAULT
12 FERRARI
13 MERCEDES
14 MERCEDES
15 FERRARI
16 RBPT
17 MERCEDES
18 MERCEDES
19 MERCEDES
20 MERCEDES

Average position
FERRARI 7.3
RBPT 8.0
RENAULT 9.5
MERCEDES 14.4

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

<t15n89$q4n$3@dont-email.me>

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 15:59:21 -0700
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 by: Alan - Sat, 19 Mar 2022 22:59 UTC

On 2022-03-19 3:32 p.m., Bigbird wrote:
> Alan wrote:
>
>> I thought Mercedes might be sandbagging...
>>
>> ...but weirdly, it looks like their problem might be engine power...
>>
>> ...and I don't think anyone really expected that.
>>
>> Just look at the results from an engine perspective:
>>
>> 1. Ferrari
>> 2. Red Bull / Honda
>> 3. Ferrari
>> 4. Red Bull / Honda
>> 5. Mercedes
>> 6. Ferrari
>> 7. Ferrari
>> 8. Renault
>> 9. Mercedes
>> 10. Red Bull / Honda
>>
>
> The full picture highlights possible Mercedes PT weakness
>
> 11 RENAULT
> 12 FERRARI
> 13 MERCEDES
> 14 MERCEDES
> 15 FERRARI
> 16 RBPT
> 17 MERCEDES
> 18 MERCEDES
> 19 MERCEDES
> 20 MERCEDES
>
>
> Average position
> FERRARI 7.3
> RBPT 8.0
> RENAULT 9.5
> MERCEDES 14.4
>

Yup.

I think we all just assumed that Mercedes had the engine part right and
they'd pick up where the left off with one of the best (if not the best)
powertrains.

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

<t162n4$e2c$1@dont-email.me>

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From: shaun.at...@gmail.com (~misfit~)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 15:14:58 +1300
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 by: ~misfit~ - Sun, 20 Mar 2022 02:14 UTC

On 20/03/2022 11:32 am, Bigbird wrote:
> Alan wrote:
>
>> I thought Mercedes might be sandbagging...
>>
>> ...but weirdly, it looks like their problem might be engine power...
>>
>> ...and I don't think anyone really expected that.
>>
>> Just look at the results from an engine perspective:
>>
>> 1. Ferrari
>> 2. Red Bull / Honda
>> 3. Ferrari
>> 4. Red Bull / Honda
>> 5. Mercedes
>> 6. Ferrari
>> 7. Ferrari
>> 8. Renault
>> 9. Mercedes
>> 10. Red Bull / Honda
>>
>
> The full picture highlights possible Mercedes PT weakness
>
> 11 RENAULT
> 12 FERRARI
> 13 MERCEDES
> 14 MERCEDES
> 15 FERRARI
> 16 RBPT
> 17 MERCEDES
> 18 MERCEDES
> 19 MERCEDES
> 20 MERCEDES
>
>
> Average position
> FERRARI 7.3
> RBPT 8.0
> RENAULT 9.5
> MERCEDES 14.4

Yeah that doesn't look good for Mercedes PUs. Then again they are being used by a couple teams with
very low budgets which might skew the data...

During testing there were comments about about how, coming out of low speed corners the Ferrari PUs
were 'whining' a lot more than other PUs, seemingly using more electrical power than ICE power - or
maybe using it differently.

Now in qually we can see that they're getting out of the corners faster than cars with other PUs. I
guess the question needs to be asked is have the other manufacturers missed a trick and are Ferrari
getting around the 'no traction control' rule with clever electronics or something? If so is it
legal? I strongly doubt that the FIA want even more media attention so soon due to rule-bending so
maybe Ferrari have considered that when designing this PU?

As the PUs are now locked in until the end of 2025 (other than fixes for reliability) Ferrari could
be starting a period of dominance. Either that or, once the Masi hubbub has died down a bit we'll
see investigations into the Italian PU.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

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Subject: Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.
From: dlm...@gmail.com (D Munz)
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 by: D Munz - Sun, 20 Mar 2022 03:30 UTC

"Aerodynamics Are For People Who Can't Build Engines" - Enzo Ferrari

I wonder if these rules changes are driving the sport back into an engine-focused formula.

There was something special about the cars before all the wings and foo-foo bits started showing up. Clean and simple.

FWIW
DLM

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

<t16es4$58k$2@dont-email.me>

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.
Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2022 22:42:27 -0700
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 by: Alan - Sun, 20 Mar 2022 05:42 UTC

On 2022-03-19 8:30 p.m., D Munz wrote:
> "Aerodynamics Are For People Who Can't Build Engines" - Enzo Ferrari
>
> I wonder if these rules changes are driving the sport back into an engine-focused formula.
>
> There was something special about the cars before all the wings and foo-foo bits started showing up. Clean and simple.

As with everything else in life, there's no way to put the genie back in
the bottle.

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

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 by: geoff - Sun, 20 Mar 2022 10:45 UTC

On 20/03/2022 6:28 am, Alan wrote:
> I thought Mercedes might be sandbagging...

Well... ...still could be. But doubtful.

geoff

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

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 by: Mark Jackson - Sun, 20 Mar 2022 19:59 UTC

On 3/19/2022 6:32 PM, Bigbird wrote:
> Alan wrote:
>
>> I thought Mercedes might be sandbagging...
>>
>> ...but weirdly, it looks like their problem might be engine power...
>>
>> ...and I don't think anyone really expected that.
>>
>> Just look at the results from an engine perspective:
>>
>> 1. Ferrari
>> 2. Red Bull / Honda
>> 3. Ferrari
>> 4. Red Bull / Honda
>> 5. Mercedes
>> 6. Ferrari
>> 7. Ferrari
>> 8. Renault
>> 9. Mercedes
>> 10. Red Bull / Honda
>>
>
> The full picture highlights possible Mercedes PT weakness
>
> 11 RENAULT
> 12 FERRARI
> 13 MERCEDES
> 14 MERCEDES
> 15 FERRARI
> 16 RBPT
> 17 MERCEDES
> 18 MERCEDES
> 19 MERCEDES
> 20 MERCEDES
>
>
> Average position
> FERRARI 7.3
> RBPT 8.0
> RENAULT 9.5
> MERCEDES 14.4
>

"Mercedes: 2022 F1 fuel the biggest change in hybrid era"

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/mercedes-2022-f1-fuel-the-biggest-change-in-hybrid-era/7873449/

Apparently Ferrari got it more right than Mercedes.

--
Mark Jackson - https://mark-jackson.online/
A vital part of my job is to render
soporific subjects into gripping prose.
- Idrees Kahloon

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

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Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 17:22:57 +0100
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 by: Slang - Mon, 21 Mar 2022 16:22 UTC

Il 20/03/2022 03:14, ~misfit~ ha scritto:

> Now in qually we can see that they're getting out of the corners faster
> than cars with other PUs. I guess the question needs to be asked is have
> the other manufacturers missed a trick and are Ferrari getting around
> the 'no traction control' rule with clever electronics or something? If
> so is it legal? I strongly doubt that the FIA want even more media
> attention so soon due to rule-bending so maybe Ferrari have considered
> that when designing this PU?

Only MB can build good PU within the rules, right? (Honda sometimes
makes good PU, sometimes makes F2 engines......).
Everyone else can build good PUs only by breaking the rules?

> Either that or, once the Masi hubbub has died down a bit we'll see
> investigations into the Italian PU.

Maybe, if MB can find a way more advanced GPS data analysis than the
first time..........
Or, better, another "guy" like mr. Sassi. ;-)
S

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

<t1agu3$1qjt$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: alister....@ntlworld.com (alister)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.
Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2022 18:42:11 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: alister - Mon, 21 Mar 2022 18:42 UTC

On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 17:22:57 +0100, Slang wrote:

> Il 20/03/2022 03:14, ~misfit~ ha scritto:
>
>> Now in qually we can see that they're getting out of the corners faster
>> than cars with other PUs. I guess the question needs to be asked is
>> have the other manufacturers missed a trick and are Ferrari getting
>> around the 'no traction control' rule with clever electronics or
>> something? If so is it legal? I strongly doubt that the FIA want even
>> more media attention so soon due to rule-bending so maybe Ferrari have
>> considered that when designing this PU?
>
> Only MB can build good PU within the rules, right? (Honda sometimes
> makes good PU, sometimes makes F2 engines......).
> Everyone else can build good PUs only by breaking the rules?
No, But Ferraris do have form in that regard (fuel flow shenanigans & oild
burning as recent examples), then again I dont think any team is exactly
squeaky clean they all try to push it as far as they can that is F1
>
> > Either that or, once the Masi hubbub has died down a bit we'll see
> > investigations into the Italian PU.
>
> Maybe, if MB can find a way more advanced GPS data analysis than the
> first time..........
> Or, better, another "guy" like mr. Sassi. ;-)
> S

--
The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement. But the opposite
of a profound truth may well be another profound truth.
-- Niels Bohr

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

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Subject: Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.
From: texasg...@gmail.com (texas gate)
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 by: texas gate - Mon, 21 Mar 2022 18:49 UTC

On Saturday, March 19, 2022 at 8:15:03 PM UTC-6, ~misfit~ wrote:

> During testing there were comments about about how, coming out of low speed corners the Ferrari PUs
> were 'whining' a lot more than other PUs, seemingly using more electrical power than ICE power - or
> maybe using it differently.
>
> Now in qually we can see that they're getting out of the corners faster than cars with other PUs. I
> guess the question needs to be asked is have the other manufacturers missed a trick and are Ferrari
> getting around the 'no traction control' rule with clever electronics or something? If so is it
> legal? I strongly doubt that the FIA want even more media attention so soon due to rule-bending so
> maybe Ferrari have considered that when designing this PU?
>
> As the PUs are now locked in until the end of 2025 (other than fixes for reliability) Ferrari could
> be starting a period of dominance. Either that or, once the Masi hubbub has died down a bit we'll
> see investigations into the Italian PU.

lol. Put on your tin foil hat.

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

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Subject: Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.
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 by: Slang - Mon, 21 Mar 2022 23:23 UTC

Il 21/03/2022 19:42, alister ha scritto:

> No, But Ferraris do have form in that regard (fuel flow shenanigans & oild
> burning as recent examples), then again I dont think any team is exactly
> squeaky clean they all try to push it as far as they can that is F1

The first PU to burn oil (breaking the rules), was MB.
Maybe the others exagerated, but Ferrari for sure was not the first.

And before: the last team to make a forbidden secret tyres test was ....
oh!!, MB.

I agree with you about the flow sensors, but:

the power levels of the Ferrari PU were reached by the MB PU a few
months later.

So, my question is, again:

only them are able to achieve these powers within the rules?

Mmmmmm, FIA could also investigate for six months in Stuttgart ....

But probably FIA and its technicians, again, will not be able to
understand anything, like what happened in Maranello.

Unfortunately, differently from what happened in 2020 (from Ferrari to
MB), no deep throats left the MB team to reach Ferrari.

Only one prominent PU engineer was almost hired at Ferrari, but MB
offered him two years' salary to stay home on vacation.
And guess....

In F1, "the cleaner one has leprosy ".
S.

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

<t1bkr9$emm$1@dont-email.me>

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Subject: Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.
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 by: ~misfit~ - Tue, 22 Mar 2022 04:55 UTC

On 22/03/2022 7:42 am, alister wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 17:22:57 +0100, Slang wrote:
>
>> Il 20/03/2022 03:14, ~misfit~ ha scritto:
>>
>>> Now in qually we can see that they're getting out of the corners faster
>>> than cars with other PUs. I guess the question needs to be asked is
>>> have the other manufacturers missed a trick and are Ferrari getting
>>> around the 'no traction control' rule with clever electronics or
>>> something? If so is it legal? I strongly doubt that the FIA want even
>>> more media attention so soon due to rule-bending so maybe Ferrari have
>>> considered that when designing this PU?
>>
>> Only MB can build good PU within the rules, right? (Honda sometimes
>> makes good PU, sometimes makes F2 engines......).
>> Everyone else can build good PUs only by breaking the rules?
>
> No, But Ferraris do have form in that regard (fuel flow shenanigans & oild
> burning as recent examples), then again I dont think any team is exactly
> squeaky clean they all try to push it as far as they can that is F1

Not to mention that 'double battery' thing from a few years ago (used to get around how much energy
could be pulled from a battery at any one time) that didn't really make it into the light of day,
the FIA just told Ferrari to change it.

In recent memory every time Ferrari have made a leap in power output it's been followed by ... well
silence from the FIA but then Ferrari suddenly slowing down considerably some months later. It's
just got to the stage where I (and quite a few others) expect it now and they only have themselves
to blame.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

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Subject: Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.
From: texasg...@gmail.com (texas gate)
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 by: texas gate - Tue, 22 Mar 2022 05:11 UTC

On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 10:55:08 PM UTC-6, ~misfit~ wrote:

> Not to mention that 'double battery' thing from a few years ago (used to get around how much energy
> could be pulled from a battery at any one time) that didn't really make it into the light of day,
> the FIA just told Ferrari to change it.
>
> In recent memory every time Ferrari have made a leap in power output it's been followed by ... well
> silence from the FIA but then Ferrari suddenly slowing down considerably some months later. It's
> just got to the stage where I (and quite a few others) expect it now and they only have themselves
> to blame.

put on that tin foil hat
or the ferrari boogy man gonna get ya

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

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Subject: Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.
From: texasg...@gmail.com (texas gate)
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 by: texas gate - Tue, 22 Mar 2022 05:19 UTC

On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 10:55:08 PM UTC-6, ~misfit~ wrote:

> In recent memory

like the last time you took a pill?

or pirated sky f1?

or logged onto your bank account
looking for your next government hand out?

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

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 by: ~misfit~ - Tue, 22 Mar 2022 08:17 UTC

On 22/03/2022 5:55 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
> On 22/03/2022 7:42 am, alister wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 17:22:57 +0100, Slang wrote:
>>
>>> Il 20/03/2022 03:14, ~misfit~ ha scritto:
>>>
>>>> Now in qually we can see that they're getting out of the corners faster
>>>> than cars with other PUs. I guess the question needs to be asked is
>>>> have the other manufacturers missed a trick and are Ferrari getting
>>>> around the 'no traction control' rule with clever electronics or
>>>> something? If so is it legal? I strongly doubt that the FIA want even
>>>> more media attention so soon due to rule-bending so maybe Ferrari have
>>>> considered that when designing this PU?
>>>
>>> Only MB can build good PU within the rules, right? (Honda sometimes
>>> makes good PU, sometimes makes F2 engines......).
>>> Everyone else can build good PUs only by breaking the rules?
> >
>> No, But Ferraris do have form in that regard (fuel flow shenanigans & oild
>> burning as recent examples), then again I dont think any team is exactly
>> squeaky clean they all try to push it as far as they can that is F1
>
> Not to mention that 'double battery' thing from a few years ago (used to get around how much energy
> could be pulled from a battery at any one time) that didn't really make it into the light of day,
> the FIA just told Ferrari to change it.
>
> In recent memory every time Ferrari have made a leap in power output it's been followed by ... well
> silence from the FIA but then Ferrari suddenly slowing down considerably some months later. It's
> just got to the stage where I (and quite a few others) expect it now and they only have themselves
> to blame.

In this 50 second video you can see the battery State of Charge (SOC) line in the bottom of
Leclerc's steering wheel during his battle with Verstappen. See how quickly the battery gets enough
charge for him to deploy on the next straight? One braking area and he's got a fair chunk of amps
available (out of the red at least).

<https://youtu.be/pIrHA0yttBQ>

It would be interesting to know if the other teams are getting this much energy recovery in a
single braking zone.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

<j9tjejFt64hU1@mid.individual.net>

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Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.
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 by: keithr0 - Tue, 22 Mar 2022 09:33 UTC

On 22/03/2022 6:17 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
> On 22/03/2022 5:55 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>> On 22/03/2022 7:42 am, alister wrote:
>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 17:22:57 +0100, Slang wrote:
>>>
>>>> Il 20/03/2022 03:14, ~misfit~ ha scritto:
>>>>
>>>>> Now in qually we can see that they're getting out of the corners
>>>>> faster
>>>>> than cars with other PUs. I guess the question needs to be asked is
>>>>> have the other manufacturers missed a trick and are Ferrari getting
>>>>> around the 'no traction control' rule with clever electronics or
>>>>> something? If so is it legal? I strongly doubt that the FIA want even
>>>>> more media attention so soon due to rule-bending so maybe Ferrari have
>>>>> considered that when designing this PU?
>>>>
>>>> Only MB can build good PU within the rules, right? (Honda sometimes
>>>> makes good PU, sometimes makes F2 engines......).
>>>> Everyone else can build good PUs only by breaking the rules?
>>  >
>>> No, But Ferraris do have form in that regard (fuel flow shenanigans &
>>> oild
>>> burning as recent examples), then again I dont think any team is exactly
>>> squeaky clean they all try to push it as far as they can that is F1
>>
>> Not to mention that 'double battery' thing from a few years ago (used
>> to get around how much energy could be pulled from a battery at any
>> one time) that didn't really make it into the light of day, the FIA
>> just told Ferrari to change it.
>>
>> In recent memory every time Ferrari have made a leap in power output
>> it's been followed by ... well silence from the FIA but then Ferrari
>> suddenly slowing down considerably some months later. It's just got to
>> the stage where I (and quite a few others) expect it now and they only
>> have themselves to blame.
>
> In this 50 second video you can see the battery State of Charge (SOC)
> line in the bottom of Leclerc's steering wheel during his battle with
> Verstappen. See how quickly the battery gets enough charge for him to
> deploy on the next straight? One braking area and he's got a fair chunk
> of amps available (out of the red at least).
>
> <https://youtu.be/pIrHA0yttBQ>
>
> It would be interesting to know if the other teams are getting this much
> energy recovery in a single braking zone.

So where do you think that the extra juice could come from?

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

<t1co14$18nq$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: cippali...@cippalippa.com (Slang)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.
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 by: Slang - Tue, 22 Mar 2022 14:54 UTC

Il 22/03/2022 09:17, ~misfit~ ha scritto:

> In this 50 second video you can see the battery State of Charge (SOC)
> line in the bottom of Leclerc's steering wheel during his battle with
> Verstappen. See how quickly the battery gets enough charge for him to
> deploy on the next straight? One braking area and he's got a fair chunk
> of amps available (out of the red at least).
>
> <https://youtu.be/pIrHA0yttBQ>

Similar videos from other cars?

>
> It would be interesting to know if the other teams are getting this much
> energy recovery in a single braking zone.

Remember that Ferrari Hybrid system (and PU) is the newest among all teams.
And i think that, after 2020, FIA keeps a special eye on Ferrari.

So where do you think that the extra juice could come from?

From the 2nd MGU-H and MGU-K hidden in Leclec pockets, of course.

But i think that MB GPS data could convince FIA to make another long
visit in Maranello ;-)
S

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

<t1dkpp$s35$1@dont-email.me>

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https://www.novabbs.com/sport/article-flat.php?id=16326&group=rec.autos.sport.f1#16326

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From: shaun.at...@gmail.com (~misfit~)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 12:06:30 +1300
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 by: ~misfit~ - Tue, 22 Mar 2022 23:06 UTC

On 22/03/2022 10:33 pm, keithr0 wrote:
> On 22/03/2022 6:17 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>> On 22/03/2022 5:55 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>> On 22/03/2022 7:42 am, alister wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 17:22:57 +0100, Slang wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Il 20/03/2022 03:14, ~misfit~ ha scritto:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Now in qually we can see that they're getting out of the corners faster
>>>>>> than cars with other PUs. I guess the question needs to be asked is
>>>>>> have the other manufacturers missed a trick and are Ferrari getting
>>>>>> around the 'no traction control' rule with clever electronics or
>>>>>> something? If so is it legal? I strongly doubt that the FIA want even
>>>>>> more media attention so soon due to rule-bending so maybe Ferrari have
>>>>>> considered that when designing this PU?
>>>>>
>>>>> Only MB can build good PU within the rules, right? (Honda sometimes
>>>>> makes good PU, sometimes makes F2 engines......).
>>>>> Everyone else can build good PUs only by breaking the rules?
>>>  >
>>>> No, But Ferraris do have form in that regard (fuel flow shenanigans & oild
>>>> burning as recent examples), then again I dont think any team is exactly
>>>> squeaky clean they all try to push it as far as they can that is F1
>>>
>>> Not to mention that 'double battery' thing from a few years ago (used to get around how much
>>> energy could be pulled from a battery at any one time) that didn't really make it into the light
>>> of day, the FIA just told Ferrari to change it.
>>>
>>> In recent memory every time Ferrari have made a leap in power output it's been followed by ...
>>> well silence from the FIA but then Ferrari suddenly slowing down considerably some months later.
>>> It's just got to the stage where I (and quite a few others) expect it now and they only have
>>> themselves to blame.
>>
>> In this 50 second video you can see the battery State of Charge (SOC) line in the bottom of
>> Leclerc's steering wheel during his battle with Verstappen. See how quickly the battery gets
>> enough charge for him to deploy on the next straight? One braking area and he's got a fair chunk
>> of amps available (out of the red at least).
>>
>> <https://youtu.be/pIrHA0yttBQ>
>>
>> It would be interesting to know if the other teams are getting this much energy recovery in a
>> single braking zone.
>
> So where do you think that the extra juice could come from?

From the usual sources (MGU-H and K) but as far as I know there's a limit on how much they can put
into the battery (as in amps per second or similar). <shrug> Maybe not any more, I've not read
these particular rules for a while.

I'm not for a minute suggesting they have a second battery system / parallel battery now like they
used to. They wouldn't make that mistake again surely? Maybe they're just using 'supercapacitors'
that can be charged faster than Li-Ion cells.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

<t1dl0s$tot$1@dont-email.me>

 copy mid

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From: shaun.at...@gmail.com (~misfit~)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 12:10:18 +1300
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 by: ~misfit~ - Tue, 22 Mar 2022 23:10 UTC

On 23/03/2022 3:54 am, Slang wrote:
> Il 22/03/2022 09:17, ~misfit~ ha scritto:
>
>> In this 50 second video you can see the battery State of Charge (SOC) line in the bottom of
>> Leclerc's steering wheel during his battle with Verstappen. See how quickly the battery gets
>> enough charge for him to deploy on the next straight? One braking area and he's got a fair chunk
>> of amps available (out of the red at least).
>>
>> <https://youtu.be/pIrHA0yttBQ>
>
> Similar videos from other cars?

You'll have to ask Formula 1 - they uploaded that.

>> It would be interesting to know if the other teams are getting this much energy recovery in a
>> single braking zone.
>
> Remember that Ferrari Hybrid system (and PU) is the newest among all teams.
> And i think that, after 2020, FIA keeps a special eye on Ferrari.

Yep I'm aware of that. IT seems that they finally joined the 'split turbo' club. Ferrari
INternational Assistance always keeps a "special" eye on Ferrari.

> So where do you think that the extra juice could come from?

Harvesting more than the rules allow maybe?

> From the 2nd MGU-H and MGU-K hidden in Leclec pockets, of course.

I think they're up his arse. The FIA would find them in his pockets.

> But i think that MB GPS data could convince FIA to make another long visit in Maranello ;-)
> S

The FIA already have access to all of the GPS data that the teams have.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

<t1dofk$eft$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.
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 by: Slang - Wed, 23 Mar 2022 00:09 UTC

Il 23/03/2022 00:10, ~misfit~ ha scritto:

> The FIA already have access to all of the GPS data that the teams have.

Maybe in 2020 they forgot it, and MB thoughtfully thought of sending
them another copy.
S

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

<IfudnUrPwrL7OKf_nZ2dnUU7-UnNnZ2d@giganews.com>

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 by: geoff - Wed, 23 Mar 2022 04:43 UTC

On 23/03/2022 12:06 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
> On 22/03/2022 10:33 pm, keithr0 wrote:
>> On 22/03/2022 6:17 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>> On 22/03/2022 5:55 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>>> On 22/03/2022 7:42 am, alister wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 17:22:57 +0100, Slang wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Il 20/03/2022 03:14, ~misfit~ ha scritto:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now in qually we can see that they're getting out of the corners
>>>>>>> faster
>>>>>>> than cars with other PUs. I guess the question needs to be asked is
>>>>>>> have the other manufacturers missed a trick and are Ferrari getting
>>>>>>> around the 'no traction control' rule with clever electronics or
>>>>>>> something? If so is it legal? I strongly doubt that the FIA want
>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>> more media attention so soon due to rule-bending so maybe Ferrari
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> considered that when designing this PU?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only MB can build good PU within the rules, right? (Honda sometimes
>>>>>> makes good PU, sometimes makes F2 engines......).
>>>>>> Everyone else can build good PUs only by breaking the rules?
>>>>  >
>>>>> No, But Ferraris do have form in that regard (fuel flow shenanigans
>>>>> & oild
>>>>> burning as recent examples), then again I dont think any team is
>>>>> exactly
>>>>> squeaky clean they all try to push it as far as they can that is F1
>>>>
>>>> Not to mention that 'double battery' thing from a few years ago
>>>> (used to get around how much energy could be pulled from a battery
>>>> at any one time) that didn't really make it into the light of day,
>>>> the FIA just told Ferrari to change it.
>>>>
>>>> In recent memory every time Ferrari have made a leap in power output
>>>> it's been followed by ... well silence from the FIA but then Ferrari
>>>> suddenly slowing down considerably some months later. It's just got
>>>> to the stage where I (and quite a few others) expect it now and they
>>>> only have themselves to blame.
>>>
>>> In this 50 second video you can see the battery State of Charge (SOC)
>>> line in the bottom of Leclerc's steering wheel during his battle with
>>> Verstappen. See how quickly the battery gets enough charge for him to
>>> deploy on the next straight? One braking area and he's got a fair
>>> chunk of amps available (out of the red at least).
>>>
>>> <https://youtu.be/pIrHA0yttBQ>
>>>
>>> It would be interesting to know if the other teams are getting this
>>> much energy recovery in a single braking zone.
>>
>> So where do you think that the extra juice could come from?
>
> From the usual sources (MGU-H and K) but as far as I know there's a
> limit on how much they can put into the battery (as in amps per second
> or similar). <shrug> Maybe not any more, I've not read these particular
> rules for a while.
>
> I'm not for a minute suggesting they have a second battery system /
> parallel battery now like they used to. They wouldn't make that mistake
> again surely? Maybe they're just using 'supercapacitors' that can be
> charged faster than Li-Ion cells.

So where are they going to hide that from scrutineering - up LEC's arse ?

geoff

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

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From: use...@account.invalid (keithr0)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 19:21:50 +1000
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 by: keithr0 - Wed, 23 Mar 2022 09:21 UTC

On 23/03/2022 9:06 am, ~misfit~ wrote:
> On 22/03/2022 10:33 pm, keithr0 wrote:
>> On 22/03/2022 6:17 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>> On 22/03/2022 5:55 pm, ~misfit~ wrote:
>>>> On 22/03/2022 7:42 am, alister wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2022 17:22:57 +0100, Slang wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Il 20/03/2022 03:14, ~misfit~ ha scritto:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now in qually we can see that they're getting out of the corners
>>>>>>> faster
>>>>>>> than cars with other PUs. I guess the question needs to be asked is
>>>>>>> have the other manufacturers missed a trick and are Ferrari getting
>>>>>>> around the 'no traction control' rule with clever electronics or
>>>>>>> something? If so is it legal? I strongly doubt that the FIA want
>>>>>>> even
>>>>>>> more media attention so soon due to rule-bending so maybe Ferrari
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> considered that when designing this PU?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only MB can build good PU within the rules, right? (Honda sometimes
>>>>>> makes good PU, sometimes makes F2 engines......).
>>>>>> Everyone else can build good PUs only by breaking the rules?
>>>>  >
>>>>> No, But Ferraris do have form in that regard (fuel flow shenanigans
>>>>> & oild
>>>>> burning as recent examples), then again I dont think any team is
>>>>> exactly
>>>>> squeaky clean they all try to push it as far as they can that is F1
>>>>
>>>> Not to mention that 'double battery' thing from a few years ago
>>>> (used to get around how much energy could be pulled from a battery
>>>> at any one time) that didn't really make it into the light of day,
>>>> the FIA just told Ferrari to change it.
>>>>
>>>> In recent memory every time Ferrari have made a leap in power output
>>>> it's been followed by ... well silence from the FIA but then Ferrari
>>>> suddenly slowing down considerably some months later. It's just got
>>>> to the stage where I (and quite a few others) expect it now and they
>>>> only have themselves to blame.
>>>
>>> In this 50 second video you can see the battery State of Charge (SOC)
>>> line in the bottom of Leclerc's steering wheel during his battle with
>>> Verstappen. See how quickly the battery gets enough charge for him to
>>> deploy on the next straight? One braking area and he's got a fair
>>> chunk of amps available (out of the red at least).
>>>
>>> <https://youtu.be/pIrHA0yttBQ>
>>>
>>> It would be interesting to know if the other teams are getting this
>>> much energy recovery in a single braking zone.
>>
>> So where do you think that the extra juice could come from?
>
> From the usual sources (MGU-H and K) but as far as I know there's a
> limit on how much they can put into the battery (as in amps per second
> or similar). <shrug> Maybe not any more, I've not read these particular
> rules for a while.
>
> I'm not for a minute suggesting they have a second battery system /
> parallel battery now like they used to. They wouldn't make that mistake
> again surely? Maybe they're just using 'supercapacitors' that can be
> charged faster than Li-Ion cells.

From what I've read, they are using the same system as last year, it's
supposed to be the only part of the engine that isn't new.

Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.

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Subject: Re: Well... ...I got that wrong.
Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2022 18:08:20 +0100
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 by: Slang - Wed, 23 Mar 2022 17:08 UTC

Il 23/03/2022 10:21, keithr0 ha scritto:

>
> From what I've read, they are using the same system as last year, it's
> supposed to be the only part of the engine that isn't new.

NO, it was completely re-disigned in 2021 and tested in the last 3 GPs.
It is a NEW design with new cells (solid state cells...?).
S

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