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sport / rec.autos.sport.f1 / Re: Porpoising and other health dangers

SubjectAuthor
* Porpoising and other health dangersbra
+* Re: Porpoising and other health dangers~misfit~
|`- Re: Porpoising and other health dangersgeoff
+* Re: Porpoising and other health dangersAlan
|+* Re: Porpoising and other health dangersD Munz
||`* Re: Porpoising and other health dangersAlan
|| `- Re: Porpoising and other health dangerstexas gate
|`* Re: Porpoising and other health dangersDan the Man
| `* Re: Porpoising and other health dangersAlan
|  `- Re: Porpoising and other health dangerstexas gate
`* Re: Porpoising and other health dangersBigbird
 +* Re: Porpoising and other health dangersNews
 |+- Re: Porpoising and other health dangersSlang
 |`* Re: Porpoising and other health dangersAlan
 | `- Re: Porpoising and other health dangerstexas gate
 `* Re: Porpoising and other health dangersAlan
  `- Re: Porpoising and other health dangerstexas gate

1
Porpoising and other health dangers

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Subject: Porpoising and other health dangers
From: brafi...@hotmail.com (bra)
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 by: bra - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 16:13 UTC

Alarming to read about the deleterious effects of "porpoising", from George Russell. Although cars are integrally safer, do enhanced driver fittings and restraints tend to exacerbate sudden impacts?

A driver in the W Series suffered a broken back after her car's right wheels skimmed some sausage kerbs at the Austin Tx track.

I have watched in-car footage of a NASCAR-type crash where the driver was completely contained in her safety seat, and had the sense to take her hands off the wheel before impact with the wall. Her HANS device worked perfectly. Nonetheless she suffered a serious concussion that lasted weeks.

Hamilton is fit as a fiddle, and Max is a superman --- but have cars and car performance advanced beyond safe human resilience?

Re: Porpoising and other health dangers

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From: shaun.at...@gmail.com (~misfit~)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Porpoising and other health dangers
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 11:08:14 +1200
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 by: ~misfit~ - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 23:08 UTC

On 27/04/2022 4:13 am, bra wrote:
> Alarming to read about the deleterious effects of "porpoising", from George Russell.

Where?

> Although cars are integrally safer, do enhanced driver fittings and restraints tend to exacerbate sudden impacts?
>
> A driver in the W Series suffered a broken back after her car's right wheels skimmed some sausage kerbs at the Austin Tx track.
>
> I have watched in-car footage of a NASCAR-type crash where the driver was completely contained in her safety seat, and had the sense to take her hands off the wheel before impact with the wall. Her HANS device worked perfectly. Nonetheless she suffered a serious concussion that lasted weeks.
>
> Hamilton is fit as a fiddle, and Max is a superman --- but have cars and car performance advanced beyond safe human resilience?

--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

Re: Porpoising and other health dangers

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 by: geoff - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 23:13 UTC

On 27/04/2022 11:08 am, ~misfit~ wrote:
> On 27/04/2022 4:13 am, bra wrote:
>> Alarming to read about the deleterious effects of "porpoising", from
>> George Russell.
>
> Where?

Keep up Shaun - keep up !

Try google, or even the local rag ....

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/motorsport/128454059/george-russell-suffers-back-and-chest-pains-trying-to-control-his-f1-car

geoff

Re: Porpoising and other health dangers

<t49v79$2na$1@dont-email.me>

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Porpoising and other health dangers
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2022 16:28:38 -0700
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 by: Alan - Tue, 26 Apr 2022 23:28 UTC

On 2022-04-26 9:13 a.m., bra wrote:
> Alarming to read about the deleterious effects of "porpoising", from George Russell. Although cars are integrally safer, do enhanced driver fittings and restraints tend to exacerbate sudden impacts?
>
> A driver in the W Series suffered a broken back after her car's right wheels skimmed some sausage kerbs at the Austin Tx track.
>
> I have watched in-car footage of a NASCAR-type crash where the driver was completely contained in her safety seat, and had the sense to take her hands off the wheel before impact with the wall. Her HANS device worked perfectly. Nonetheless she suffered a serious concussion that lasted weeks.
>
> Hamilton is fit as a fiddle, and Max is a superman --- but have cars and car performance advanced beyond safe human resilience?

There was a terrific documentary along similar lines about fighter
aircraft that basically concluded that for some time now, the most
limiting factor on performance has been the human sitting in the cockpit.

And I think that F1 is close to that limit; at least with the current
problems of porpoising.

Re: Porpoising and other health dangers

<xn0nh47ynitvebd000@news.eternal-september.org>

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From: bigbird....@gmail.com (Bigbird)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Porpoising and other health dangers
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 12:50:31 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Bigbird - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 12:50 UTC

bra wrote:

> Alarming to read about the deleterious effects of "porpoising", from
> George Russell. Although cars are integrally safer, do enhanced
> driver fittings and restraints tend to exacerbate sudden impacts?
>
[snip]
>
> Hamilton is fit as a fiddle, and Max is a superman --- but have cars
> and car performance advanced beyond safe human resilience?

Since when has anyone described porpoising as an advance in car
performance.
It is a unforeseen by product of design. It will get designed out.

Personally I think the FIA should consider regulations to stop cars
running with porpoising on safety grounds; or at least tell the teams
they are considering it so they act even if it means reducing
performance. F1 takes enough toll on the driver without this... and it
just looks bloody stupid for what is considered the pinnacle of
motorsport by many.

--
Bozo Bin
Alan Baker (Troll, habitual liar and generally a twat)
Texasgate (well he's "Texasgate")

Re: Porpoising and other health dangers

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Subject: Re: Porpoising and other health dangers
From: dlm...@gmail.com (D Munz)
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 by: D Munz - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 12:52 UTC

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 6:28:43 PM UTC-5, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-04-26 9:13 a.m., bra wrote:
> > Alarming to read about the deleterious effects of "porpoising", from George Russell. Although cars are integrally safer, do enhanced driver fittings and restraints tend to exacerbate sudden impacts?
> >
> > A driver in the W Series suffered a broken back after her car's right wheels skimmed some sausage kerbs at the Austin Tx track.
> >
> > I have watched in-car footage of a NASCAR-type crash where the driver was completely contained in her safety seat, and had the sense to take her hands off the wheel before impact with the wall. Her HANS device worked perfectly. Nonetheless she suffered a serious concussion that lasted weeks.
> >
> > Hamilton is fit as a fiddle, and Max is a superman --- but have cars and car performance advanced beyond safe human resilience?
> There was a terrific documentary along similar lines about fighter
> aircraft that basically concluded that for some time now, the most
> limiting factor on performance has been the human sitting in the cockpit.
>
> And I think that F1 is close to that limit; at least with the current
> problems of porpoising.

But proposing is not beneficial to performance.

I've seen the video and reports around aircraft but those balance improved performance (acceleration, deceleration, turning etc.) against the human bodies ability to survive the environment.

I suspect there will be a time where car performance improvements potentially surpass our (the driver's) physical capabilities (think g-forces on the neck) but these underfloor aerodynamic failures are not in that category.

Or maybe they are. Does anyone have 2021/2022 same team, same track data to show the difference between last years peak and this years peak (with the proposing?) That would be an interesting side-by-side video showing a lap over the two versions of a car.

FWIW
DLM

Re: Porpoising and other health dangers

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Subject: Re: Porpoising and other health dangers
From: dan...@yahoo.com (Dan the Man)
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 by: Dan the Man - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 13:22 UTC

On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 7:28:43 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-04-26 9:13 a.m., bra wrote:
> > Alarming to read about the deleterious effects of "porpoising", from George Russell. Although cars are integrally safer, do enhanced driver fittings and restraints tend to exacerbate sudden impacts?
> >
> > A driver in the W Series suffered a broken back after her car's right wheels skimmed some sausage kerbs at the Austin Tx track.
> >
> > I have watched in-car footage of a NASCAR-type crash where the driver was completely contained in her safety seat, and had the sense to take her hands off the wheel before impact with the wall. Her HANS device worked perfectly. Nonetheless she suffered a serious concussion that lasted weeks.
> >
> > Hamilton is fit as a fiddle, and Max is a superman --- but have cars and car performance advanced beyond safe human resilience?
> There was a terrific documentary along similar lines about fighter
> aircraft that basically concluded that for some time now, the most
> limiting factor on performance has been the human sitting in the cockpit.
>
> And I think that F1 is close to that limit; at least with the current
> problems of porpoising.
I remember seeing a documentary on PBS a long time ago that shared a bit of on-board video from a US Air Force training flight; a fighter jet had just taken a VERY hard turn, resulting in the young trainee passing out in the cockpit. The flight would clearly have ended in disaster if not for the instructor sitting in the "back" seat who had remained conscious and was able to take control of the plane. Scary stuff.
I'm not sure if that would ever happen in an F1 car; I'm not a doctor, though I play one on TV. 8-)

Dan

Re: Porpoising and other health dangers

<t4bknd$e4a$1@dont-email.me>

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Subject: Re: Porpoising and other health dangers
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 by: News - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 14:41 UTC

On 4/27/2022 8:50 AM, Bigbird wrote:
> bra wrote:
>
>> Alarming to read about the deleterious effects of "porpoising", from
>> George Russell. Although cars are integrally safer, do enhanced
>> driver fittings and restraints tend to exacerbate sudden impacts?
>>
> [snip]
>>
>> Hamilton is fit as a fiddle, and Max is a superman --- but have cars
>> and car performance advanced beyond safe human resilience?
>
> Since when has anyone described porpoising as an advance in car
> performance.
> It is a unforeseen by product of design. It will get designed out.
>
> Personally I think the FIA should consider regulations to stop cars
> running with porpoising on safety grounds; or at least tell the teams
> they are considering it so they act even if it means reducing
> performance. F1 takes enough toll on the driver without this... and it
> just looks bloody stupid for what is considered the pinnacle of
> motorsport by many.
>

Several teams' CFD and chassis dynamics designs and remedies are a joke.

Re: Porpoising and other health dangers

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From: cippali...@cippalippa.com (Slang)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Porpoising and other health dangers
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 16:49:22 +0200
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 by: Slang - Wed, 27 Apr 2022 14:49 UTC

Il 27/04/2022 16:41, News ha scritto:

>
> Several teams' CFD and chassis dynamics designs and remedies are a joke.

Air speed in wind tunnel is limited to 180 km/h.
No sign of porpoising at those speeds.
All is a joke...
S

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Porpoising and other health dangers
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 17:23:58 -0700
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 by: Alan - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 00:23 UTC

On 2022-04-27 5:50 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
> bra wrote:
>
>> Alarming to read about the deleterious effects of "porpoising", from
>> George Russell. Although cars are integrally safer, do enhanced
>> driver fittings and restraints tend to exacerbate sudden impacts?
>>
> [snip]
>>
>> Hamilton is fit as a fiddle, and Max is a superman --- but have cars
>> and car performance advanced beyond safe human resilience?
>
> Since when has anyone described porpoising as an advance in car
> performance.
> It is a unforeseen by product of design. It will get designed out.

And yet, at the moment the cars clearly go faster when they're set up to
porpoise...

....so clearly, at the moment, it represents an advance in performance.

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Porpoising and other health dangers
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 17:26:17 -0700
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 by: Alan - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 00:26 UTC

On 2022-04-27 5:52 a.m., D Munz wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 6:28:43 PM UTC-5, Alan wrote:
>> On 2022-04-26 9:13 a.m., bra wrote:
>>> Alarming to read about the deleterious effects of "porpoising",
>>> from George Russell. Although cars are integrally safer, do
>>> enhanced driver fittings and restraints tend to exacerbate sudden
>>> impacts?
>>>
>>> A driver in the W Series suffered a broken back after her car's
>>> right wheels skimmed some sausage kerbs at the Austin Tx track.
>>>
>>> I have watched in-car footage of a NASCAR-type crash where the
>>> driver was completely contained in her safety seat, and had the
>>> sense to take her hands off the wheel before impact with the
>>> wall. Her HANS device worked perfectly. Nonetheless she suffered
>>> a serious concussion that lasted weeks.
>>>
>>> Hamilton is fit as a fiddle, and Max is a superman --- but have
>>> cars and car performance advanced beyond safe human resilience?
>> There was a terrific documentary along similar lines about fighter
>> aircraft that basically concluded that for some time now, the most
>> limiting factor on performance has been the human sitting in the
>> cockpit.
>>
>> And I think that F1 is close to that limit; at least with the
>> current problems of porpoising.
>
> But proposing is not beneficial to performance.

At the moment, it clearly is more beneficial to allow the cars to
porpoise than not.

>
> I've seen the video and reports around aircraft but those balance
> improved performance (acceleration, deceleration, turning etc.)
> against the human bodies ability to survive the environment.
>
> I suspect there will be a time where car performance improvements
> potentially surpass our (the driver's) physical capabilities (think
> g-forces on the neck) but these underfloor aerodynamic failures are
> not in that category.

No, they aren't.

But there has still be an advance in performance that has led to this
behaviour and it is taking a toll.

>
> Or maybe they are. Does anyone have 2021/2022 same team, same track
> data to show the difference between last years peak and this years
> peak (with the proposing?) That would be an interesting side-by-side
> video showing a lap over the two versions of a car.

How does that change anything?

>
> FWIW DLM

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Porpoising and other health dangers
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 17:34:11 -0700
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 by: Alan - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 00:34 UTC

On 2022-04-27 6:22 a.m., Dan the Man wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 26, 2022 at 7:28:43 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
>> On 2022-04-26 9:13 a.m., bra wrote:
>>> Alarming to read about the deleterious effects of "porpoising", from George Russell. Although cars are integrally safer, do enhanced driver fittings and restraints tend to exacerbate sudden impacts?
>>>
>>> A driver in the W Series suffered a broken back after her car's right wheels skimmed some sausage kerbs at the Austin Tx track.
>>>
>>> I have watched in-car footage of a NASCAR-type crash where the driver was completely contained in her safety seat, and had the sense to take her hands off the wheel before impact with the wall. Her HANS device worked perfectly. Nonetheless she suffered a serious concussion that lasted weeks.
>>>
>>> Hamilton is fit as a fiddle, and Max is a superman --- but have cars and car performance advanced beyond safe human resilience?
>> There was a terrific documentary along similar lines about fighter
>> aircraft that basically concluded that for some time now, the most
>> limiting factor on performance has been the human sitting in the cockpit.
>>
>> And I think that F1 is close to that limit; at least with the current
>> problems of porpoising.
> I remember seeing a documentary on PBS a long time ago that shared a bit of on-board video from a US Air Force training flight; a fighter jet had just taken a VERY hard turn, resulting in the young trainee passing out in the cockpit. The flight would clearly have ended in disaster if not for the instructor sitting in the "back" seat who had remained conscious and was able to take control of the plane. Scary stuff.
> I'm not sure if that would ever happen in an F1 car; I'm not a doctor, though I play one on TV. 8-)

It would be extremely unlikely; essentially impossible.

Those blackouts in fighter jets occur when the aircraft is pulling
positive g's in the aircraft's up-down direction. When it does that,
despite all that can be done with g-suits, a person sitting in the
aircraft has the blood move from evenly distributed to most of it in his
lower extremities and next to none in the brain.

And while F1 cars can decelerate at over 5g (even as much as 6.6g, I've
seen reported), they can't sustain that highest level for long at all,
as the traction of the tires falls with the decrease in speed.

The Blue Angels pilots regularly sustain 10g accelerations for 3-5
seconds, so unless F1 cars get to completely ludicrous levels of
downforce, they're never going to sustain enough g-forces for long
enough for G-LOC (g-force induced loss of consciousness).

:-)

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From: nuh...@nope.com (Alan)
Newsgroups: rec.autos.sport.f1
Subject: Re: Porpoising and other health dangers
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2022 17:34:37 -0700
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 by: Alan - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 00:34 UTC

On 2022-04-27 7:41 a.m., News wrote:
> On 4/27/2022 8:50 AM, Bigbird wrote:
>> bra wrote:
>>
>>> Alarming to read about the deleterious effects of "porpoising", from
>>> George Russell. Although cars are integrally safer, do enhanced
>>> driver fittings and restraints tend to exacerbate sudden impacts?
>>>
>> [snip]
>>>
>>> Hamilton is fit as a fiddle, and Max is a superman --- but have cars
>>> and car performance advanced beyond safe human resilience?
>>
>> Since when has anyone described porpoising as an advance in car
>> performance.
>> It is a unforeseen by product of design. It will get designed out.
>>
>> Personally I think the FIA should consider regulations to stop cars
>> running with porpoising on safety grounds; or at least tell the teams
>> they are considering it so they act even if it means reducing
>> performance. F1 takes enough toll on the driver without this... and it
>> just looks bloody stupid for what is considered the pinnacle of
>> motorsport by many.
>>
>
>
> Several teams' CFD and chassis dynamics designs and remedies are a joke.

Says the guy not qualified to do any of it.

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Subject: Re: Porpoising and other health dangers
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 by: texas gate - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:16 UTC

On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 6:24:02 PM UTC-6, Alan wrote:

> clearly

> clearly

clearly you are a fucking idiot

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 by: texas gate - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:17 UTC

On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 6:26:22 PM UTC-6, Alan wrote:

> clearly

word of the day, simpleton?

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 by: texas gate - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:19 UTC

On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 6:34:17 PM UTC-6, Alan wrote:

> It would be extremely unlikely; essentially impossible.

lol

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 by: texas gate - Thu, 28 Apr 2022 12:20 UTC

On Wednesday, April 27, 2022 at 6:34:41 PM UTC-6, Alan wrote:

> Says the guy not qualified to do any of it.

fuck you, you fucking stupid trolling cocksucker

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server_pubkey.txt

rocksolid light 0.9.7
clearnet tor