--- because, regardless of its speed, which is no great shakes, the shakes from its porpoising are dangerous to the driver, the car, and potentially to the rest of the field.

Surely stewards can order a team to pull out of an event?

On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 9:31:36 AM UTC-7, bra wrote:
> --- because, regardless of its speed, which is no great shakes, the shakes from its porpoising are dangerous to the driver, the car, and potentially to the rest of the field.
>
> Surely stewards can order a team to pull out of an event?

Latest, June 11,

'George Russell has doubled down on his calls for Formula 1 to address the “safety limitation” in its new-design 2022 cars, declaring it’s only a matter of time before the chassis bouncing phenomenon, also known as porpoising, results in a significant crash.'

On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 12:34:40 PM UTC-7, bra wrote:
> On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 9:31:36 AM UTC-7, bra wrote:
> > --- because, regardless of its speed, which is no great shakes, the shakes from its porpoising are dangerous to the driver, the car, and potentially to the rest of the field.
> >
> > Surely stewards can order a team to pull out of an event?
> Latest, June 11,
>
> 'George Russell has doubled down on his calls for Formula 1 to address the “safety limitation” in its new-design 2022 cars, declaring it’s only a matter of time before the chassis bouncing phenomenon, also known as porpoising, results in a significant crash.'

Merc messed up bad so drag everyone else down with you.

XYXPDQ wrote:

> On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 12:34:40 PM UTC-7, bra wrote:
> > On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 9:31:36 AM UTC-7, bra wrote:
> > > --- because, regardless of its speed, which is no great shakes,
> > > the shakes from its porpoising are dangerous to the driver, the
> > > car, and potentially to the rest of the field.
> > >
> > > Surely stewards can order a team to pull out of an event?
> > Latest, June 11,
> >
> > 'George Russell has doubled down on his calls for Formula 1 to
> > address the “safety limitation” in its new-design 2022 cars,
> > declaring it’s only a matter of time before the chassis bouncing
> > phenomenon, also known as porpoising, results in a significant
> > crash.'
>
>
> Merc messed up bad so drag everyone else down with you.

Nonsense. The teams designed the cars, not F1, so it is up to the teams
to address safety concerns of their designs. If Russell thinks his and
other teams need some regs to make them limit the problem then you need
just two things. A manner of measuring the effect and a regulation
defining "safe" limits. Any team can change their setup to limit
porpoising they will just be slower. Of course this would write off the
season for some teams and promote others.

--
Bozo Bin
Alan Baker
Texasgate

In article <bfd525ee-90c3-4033-8cbc-4b059eb4a6e8n@googlegroups.com>,
brafield@hotmail.com says...
>
> --- because, regardless of its speed, which is no great shakes, the shakes from its porpoising are dangerous to the driver, the car, and potentially to the rest of the field.
>
> Surely stewards can order a team to pull out of an event?

The Ferrari porpoises just as much, doesn't it?

--
Alan LeHun

On 12/06/2022 13:04, Alan LeHun wrote:
> In article <bfd525ee-90c3-4033-8cbc-4b059eb4a6e8n@googlegroups.com>,
> brafield@hotmail.com says...
>>
>> --- because, regardless of its speed, which is no great shakes, the shakes from its porpoising are dangerous to the driver, the car, and potentially to the rest of the field.
>>
>> Surely stewards can order a team to pull out of an event?
>
> The Ferrari porpoises just as much, doesn't it?

It definitely breaks more.

Cheers

Geoff

On Sunday, June 12, 2022 at 5:47:33 AM UTC-7, Geoff May wrote:
> On 12/06/2022 13:04, Alan LeHun wrote:
> > In article <bfd525ee-90c3-4033...@googlegroups.com>,
> > braf...@hotmail.com says...
> >>
> >> --- because, regardless of its speed, which is no great shakes, the shakes from its porpoising are dangerous to the driver, the car, and potentially to the rest of the field.
> >>
> >> Surely stewards can order a team to pull out of an event?
> >
> > The Ferrari porpoises just as much, doesn't it?
> It definitely breaks more.
>
> Cheers
>
> Geoff
Guardian today: " the drivers were questioning the bouncing phenomenon, not exclusive to Mercedes, and which, they fear, could cause long-term physical damage."

On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 1:34:40 PM UTC-6, bra wrote:
> On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 9:31:36 AM UTC-7, bra wrote:
> > --- because, regardless of its speed, which is no great shakes, the shakes from its porpoising are dangerous to the driver, the car, and potentially to the rest of the field.
> >
> > Surely stewards can order a team to pull out of an event?
> Latest, June 11,
>
> 'George Russell has doubled down on his calls for Formula 1 to address the “safety limitation” in its new-design 2022 cars, declaring it’s only a matter of time before the chassis bouncing phenomenon, also known as porpoising, results in a significant crash.'

Talk of F1 intervening soon.
Increasing ride height for all.

On 6/11/2022 8:31 PM, XYXPDQ wrote:
> On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 12:34:40 PM UTC-7, bra wrote:
>> On Saturday, June 11, 2022 at 9:31:36 AM UTC-7, bra wrote:
>>> --- because, regardless of its speed, which is no great shakes, the shakes from its porpoising are dangerous to the driver, the car, and potentially to the rest of the field.
>>>
>>> Surely stewards can order a team to pull out of an event?
>> Latest, June 11,
>>
>> 'George Russell has doubled down on his calls for Formula 1 to address the “safety limitation” in its new-design 2022 cars, declaring it’s only a matter of time before the chassis bouncing phenomenon, also known as porpoising, results in a significant crash.'
>
>
> Merc messed up bad so drag everyone else down with you.

CFD hell.

On Monday, June 13, 2022 at 6:02:39 AM UTC-7, News wrote:

> CFD hell.

Yes.

On Saturday, 11 June 2022 at 17:31:36 UTC+1, bra wrote:
> --- because, regardless of its speed, which is no great shakes, the shakes from its porpoising are dangerous to the driver, the car, and potentially to the rest of the field.
>
> Surely stewards can order a team to pull out of an event?
It's definitely an unusual situation.

But Russell and Hamilton have finished all of the races this year.

They've not crashed into anyone, they've not made mistakes due
to fatigue that have caused issues, their suspension hasn't
fractured under load etc.

Or is the argument that it is an accident "waiting to happen"?

Has there ever been a car designed in the past which was so
much of a physical challenge to drive at it's optimal speed?

I suspect this may be a stupid question,but would it not be possible to install suspension under the drivers' seats?

On 2022-06-14 12:57, michael...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> I suspect this may be a stupid question,but would it not be possible to install suspension under the drivers' seats?

I might be possible... ...but doing it after the car has been designed?

That might be problematic.

Review the Lotus solution (promptly banned):

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_88>

In short, they used one set of very progressive springs between the
wheels and the aerodynamic panels of the car and another set of springs
entirely that went between the wheels and the conventional monocoque
chassis and engine/gearbox, which of course meant the driver was
experiencing a lot less vertical acceleration.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjTcMP2wnOg>

It's not easy to see, but you can sort of see that the driver's head is
moving up and down in relation to the bodywork.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMtkRcqvGaU>

And there you can see how the outer suspension let the aerodynamic
bodywork move down until the sides were almost in contact with the road
surface; circumventing the 60mm gap that the FIA had introduced.

On Wednesday, 15 June 2022 at 00:22:44 UTC+1, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-06-14 12:57, michael...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > I suspect this may be a stupid question,but would it not be possible to install suspension under the drivers' seats?
> I might be possible... ...but doing it after the car has been designed?
>
> That might be problematic.
>

True, there's not much room with the driver already pretty much sitting on the ground.

> Review the Lotus solution (promptly banned):
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_88>
>
> In short, they used one set of very progressive springs between the
> wheels and the aerodynamic panels of the car and another set of springs
> entirely that went between the wheels and the conventional monocoque
> chassis and engine/gearbox, which of course meant the driver was
> experiencing a lot less vertical acceleration.
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjTcMP2wnOg>
>
> It's not easy to see, but you can sort of see that the driver's head is
> moving up and down in relation to the bodywork.
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMtkRcqvGaU>
>
> And there you can see how the outer suspension let the aerodynamic
> bodywork move down until the sides were almost in contact with the road
> surface; circumventing the 60mm gap that the FIA had
introduced.

Chapman was a genius.

I hope the FIA hold firm and tell the teams it's their problem.

On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 9:22:44 AM UTC+10, Alan wrote:
> On 2022-06-14 12:57, michael wrote:
> > I suspect this may be a stupid question,but would it not be possible to install suspension under the drivers' seats?
> I might be possible... ...but doing it after the car has been designed?
>
> That might be problematic.
>
> Review the Lotus solution (promptly banned):
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_88>
>
> In short, they used one set of very progressive springs between the
> wheels and the aerodynamic panels of the car and another set of springs
> entirely that went between the wheels and the conventional monocoque
> chassis and engine/gearbox, which of course meant the driver was
> experiencing a lot less vertical acceleration.
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjTcMP2wnOg>
>
> It's not easy to see, but you can sort of see that the driver's head is
> moving up and down in relation to the bodywork.
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMtkRcqvGaU>
>
> And there you can see how the outer suspension let the aerodynamic
> bodywork move down until the sides were almost in contact with the road
> surface; circumventing the 60mm gap that the FIA had introduced.

In that case the driver was not suspended from the chassis though. I presume you know why ???
Why do we prefer a 'stiff' car rather than a 'soft' car ???
Can you imagine not being directly connected to the suspension and the resulting "feel" of the tyre ???
Why do they removed the seats from production cars and bolt in race seats directly to the chassis?
Why is it that I've never seen a suspended seat in any racecar ?
Let me know if you can find one.
Why is it that we go to great lengths to mould ourselves into the seat and connect that seat directly to the chassis and then strap ourselves in really, really tightly. so we "feel" every tiny, teeny pebble in the pavement ???

Go back to the finish at Baku and watch George get out of the car.
Than watch Lewis.
Do you see a difference ?
Food for thought.

build

On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 8:39:40 PM UTC+10, michael wrote:
> On Wednesday, 15 June 2022 at 00:22:44 UTC+1, Alan wrote:
> > On 2022-06-14 12:57, michael.. wrote:
> > > I suspect this may be a stupid question,but would it not be possible to install suspension under the drivers' seats?
> > I might be possible... ...but doing it after the car has been designed?
> >
> > That might be problematic.
> >
> True, there's not much room with the driver already pretty much sitting on the ground.
> > Review the Lotus solution (promptly banned):
> >
> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_88>
> >
> > In short, they used one set of very progressive springs between the
> > wheels and the aerodynamic panels of the car and another set of springs
> > entirely that went between the wheels and the conventional monocoque
> > chassis and engine/gearbox, which of course meant the driver was
> > experiencing a lot less vertical acceleration.
> >
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjTcMP2wnOg>
> >
> > It's not easy to see, but you can sort of see that the driver's head is
> > moving up and down in relation to the bodywork.
> >
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMtkRcqvGaU>
> >
> > And there you can see how the outer suspension let the aerodynamic
> > bodywork move down until the sides were almost in contact with the road
> > surface; circumventing the 60mm gap that the FIA had
> introduced.
> Chapman was a genius.
>
> I hope the FIA hold firm and tell the teams it's their problem.

Who watched the Baku post race stuff???
Did other drivers complain ???
If so which drivers ???
thanks in anticipation,
build

On 6/15/2022 10:50 AM, build wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 9:22:44 AM UTC+10, Alan wrote:
>> On 2022-06-14 12:57, michael wrote:
>>> I suspect this may be a stupid question,but would it not be possible to install suspension under the drivers' seats?
>> I might be possible... ...but doing it after the car has been designed?
>>
>> That might be problematic.
>>
>> Review the Lotus solution (promptly banned):
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_88>
>>
>> In short, they used one set of very progressive springs between the
>> wheels and the aerodynamic panels of the car and another set of springs
>> entirely that went between the wheels and the conventional monocoque
>> chassis and engine/gearbox, which of course meant the driver was
>> experiencing a lot less vertical acceleration.
>>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjTcMP2wnOg>
>>
>> It's not easy to see, but you can sort of see that the driver's head is
>> moving up and down in relation to the bodywork.
>>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMtkRcqvGaU>
>>
>> And there you can see how the outer suspension let the aerodynamic
>> bodywork move down until the sides were almost in contact with the road
>> surface; circumventing the 60mm gap that the FIA had introduced.
>
> In that case the driver was not suspended from the chassis though. I presume you know why ???
> Why do we prefer a 'stiff' car rather than a 'soft' car ???
> Can you imagine not being directly connected to the suspension and the resulting "feel" of the tyre ???
> Why do they removed the seats from production cars and bolt in race seats directly to the chassis?
> Why is it that I've never seen a suspended seat in any racecar ?
> Let me know if you can find one.
> Why is it that we go to great lengths to mould ourselves into the seat and connect that seat directly to the chassis and then strap ourselves in really, really tightly. so we "feel" every tiny, teeny pebble in the pavement ???
>
> Go back to the finish at Baku and watch George get out of the car.
> Than watch Lewis.
> Do you see a difference ?
> Food for thought.
>
> build

That will continue until a driver fails on course or must be extracted
at the finish.

On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 1:25:09 AM UTC+10, News wrote:
> On 6/15/2022 10:50 AM, build wrote:
> > On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 9:22:44 AM UTC+10, Alan wrote:
> >> On 2022-06-14 12:57, michael wrote:
> >>> I suspect this may be a stupid question,but would it not be possible to install suspension under the drivers' seats?
> >> I might be possible... ...but doing it after the car has been designed?
> >>
> >> That might be problematic.
> >>
> >> Review the Lotus solution (promptly banned):
> >>
> >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_88>
> >>
> >> In short, they used one set of very progressive springs between the
> >> wheels and the aerodynamic panels of the car and another set of springs
> >> entirely that went between the wheels and the conventional monocoque
> >> chassis and engine/gearbox, which of course meant the driver was
> >> experiencing a lot less vertical acceleration.
> >>
> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjTcMP2wnOg>
> >>
> >> It's not easy to see, but you can sort of see that the driver's head is
> >> moving up and down in relation to the bodywork.
> >>
> >> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMtkRcqvGaU>
> >>
> >> And there you can see how the outer suspension let the aerodynamic
> >> bodywork move down until the sides were almost in contact with the road
> >> surface; circumventing the 60mm gap that the FIA had introduced.
> >
> > In that case the driver was not suspended from the chassis though. I presume you know why ???
> > Why do we prefer a 'stiff' car rather than a 'soft' car ???
> > Can you imagine not being directly connected to the suspension and the resulting "feel" of the tyre ???
> > Why do they removed the seats from production cars and bolt in race seats directly to the chassis?
> > Why is it that I've never seen a suspended seat in any racecar ?
> > Let me know if you can find one.
> > Why is it that we go to great lengths to mould ourselves into the seat and connect that seat directly to the chassis and then strap ourselves in really, really tightly. so we "feel" every tiny, teeny pebble in the pavement ???
> >
> > Go back to the finish at Baku and watch George get out of the car.
> > Than watch Lewis.
> > Do you see a difference ?
> > Food for thought.
> >
> > build
> That will continue until a driver fails on course or must be extracted
> at the finish.

That's happened before. Particularly the early eighties Ground Effect cars, they were violently bumpy. It was visible even in very low resolution TV's. I recall a bloke saying "Someone should invent suspension and give the drivers bones a rest."

Did you watch George bound out of the car and dance away? He looked like he was suffering (note that is sarcasm).
I'll watch a few post race interviews on Friday. I'll bet the drivers making the most noise about the problem will be those who are finishing behind their team mates atm.
So, Lewis, Pierre, Dan, Esteban, Nic and Lance to name some of the obvious candidates. So what the others say will be closer to reality. i.e, they don't need excuses. Max, Checo, George, Seb, Nando, Lando, Valtteri, Alex, Yuki, KMag, Charles.
I'm now curious to see them :-)
build

On Tuesday, June 14, 2022 at 12:57:21 PM UTC-7, michael...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> I suspect this may be a stupid question,but would it not be possible to install suspension under the drivers' seats?

Offshore powerboat racing uses full suspension seats but they have way more room and weight isn't nearly as critical. It's an interesting idea but I don't see how it could be packaged in an F1 car.

On 6/15/2022 12:22 PM, build wrote:
> On Thursday, June 16, 2022 at 1:25:09 AM UTC+10, News wrote:
>> On 6/15/2022 10:50 AM, build wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 9:22:44 AM UTC+10, Alan wrote:
>>>> On 2022-06-14 12:57, michael wrote:
>>>>> I suspect this may be a stupid question,but would it not be possible to install suspension under the drivers' seats?
>>>> I might be possible... ...but doing it after the car has been designed?
>>>>
>>>> That might be problematic.
>>>>
>>>> Review the Lotus solution (promptly banned):
>>>>
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_88>
>>>>
>>>> In short, they used one set of very progressive springs between the
>>>> wheels and the aerodynamic panels of the car and another set of springs
>>>> entirely that went between the wheels and the conventional monocoque
>>>> chassis and engine/gearbox, which of course meant the driver was
>>>> experiencing a lot less vertical acceleration.
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjTcMP2wnOg>
>>>>
>>>> It's not easy to see, but you can sort of see that the driver's head is
>>>> moving up and down in relation to the bodywork.
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMtkRcqvGaU>
>>>>
>>>> And there you can see how the outer suspension let the aerodynamic
>>>> bodywork move down until the sides were almost in contact with the road
>>>> surface; circumventing the 60mm gap that the FIA had introduced.
>>>
>>> In that case the driver was not suspended from the chassis though. I presume you know why ???
>>> Why do we prefer a 'stiff' car rather than a 'soft' car ???
>>> Can you imagine not being directly connected to the suspension and the resulting "feel" of the tyre ???
>>> Why do they removed the seats from production cars and bolt in race seats directly to the chassis?
>>> Why is it that I've never seen a suspended seat in any racecar ?
>>> Let me know if you can find one.
>>> Why is it that we go to great lengths to mould ourselves into the seat and connect that seat directly to the chassis and then strap ourselves in really, really tightly. so we "feel" every tiny, teeny pebble in the pavement ???
>>>
>>> Go back to the finish at Baku and watch George get out of the car.
>>> Than watch Lewis.
>>> Do you see a difference ?
>>> Food for thought.
>>>
>>> build
>> That will continue until a driver fails on course or must be extracted
>> at the finish.
>
> That's happened before. Particularly the early eighties Ground Effect cars, they were violently bumpy. It was visible even in very low resolution TV's. I recall a bloke saying "Someone should invent suspension and give the drivers bones a rest."
>
> Did you watch George bound out of the car and dance away? He looked like he was suffering (note that is sarcasm).
> I'll watch a few post race interviews on Friday. I'll bet the drivers making the most noise about the problem will be those who are finishing behind their team mates atm.
> So, Lewis, Pierre, Dan, Esteban, Nic and Lance to name some of the obvious candidates. So what the others say will be closer to reality. i.e, they don't need excuses. Max, Checo, George, Seb, Nando, Lando, Valtteri, Alex, Yuki, KMag, Charles.
> I'm now curious to see them :-)
> build

And if not the bumps, or the failing track surface, then the heat.

Nigel on pole in the brutal Dallas inaugural, 1984, classified 6th:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFEPMb7IP6Q

build wrote:

> Did you watch George bound out of the car and dance away? He looked
> like he was suffering (note that is sarcasm).

You heard his complaints earlier in the weekend though? ( also sarcasm,
of course you didn't)

So George (58 starts) coped better than Lewis (296 starts) and this
shocks your dumb ass. (clue in the last two words)

--
Bozo Bin
Alan Baker
Texasgate

On 16/06/2022 10:30 am, Bigbird wrote:
> build wrote:
>
>> Did you watch George bound out of the car and dance away? He looked
>> like he was suffering (note that is sarcasm).
>
> You heard his complaints earlier in the weekend though? ( also sarcasm,
> of course you didn't)
>
> So George (58 starts) coped better than Lewis (296 starts) and this
> shocks your dumb ass. (clue in the last two words)
>

You missed the bit about the cars having some significant difference,
presumably relating to the ride ?

geoff

On 2022-06-15 07:50, build wrote:
> On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 9:22:44 AM UTC+10, Alan wrote:
>> On 2022-06-14 12:57, michael wrote:
>>> I suspect this may be a stupid question,but would it not be possible to install suspension under the drivers' seats?
>> I might be possible... ...but doing it after the car has been designed?
>>
>> That might be problematic.
>>
>> Review the Lotus solution (promptly banned):
>>
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_88>
>>
>> In short, they used one set of very progressive springs between the
>> wheels and the aerodynamic panels of the car and another set of springs
>> entirely that went between the wheels and the conventional monocoque
>> chassis and engine/gearbox, which of course meant the driver was
>> experiencing a lot less vertical acceleration.
>>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjTcMP2wnOg>
>>
>> It's not easy to see, but you can sort of see that the driver's head is
>> moving up and down in relation to the bodywork.
>>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMtkRcqvGaU>
>>
>> And there you can see how the outer suspension let the aerodynamic
>> bodywork move down until the sides were almost in contact with the road
>> surface; circumventing the 60mm gap that the FIA had introduced.
>
> In that case the driver was not suspended from the chassis though. I presume you know why ???

Yes. Because the conventional chassis could be much softer that was
typical and is typical...

....because the conventional chassis didn't carry the aerodynamic loads.

> Why do we prefer a 'stiff' car rather than a 'soft' car ???

Before you ask "why" you should first ask "if".

> Can you imagine not being directly connected to the suspension and the resulting "feel" of the tyre ???

In what car are you imagine this is true.

> Why do they removed the seats from production cars and bolt in race seats directly to the chassis?

Safety.

> Why is it that I've never seen a suspended seat in any racecar ?
> Let me know if you can find one.
> Why is it that we go to great lengths to mould ourselves into the seat and connect that seat directly to the chassis and then strap ourselves in really, really tightly. so we "feel" every tiny, teeny pebble in the pavement ???
>
> Go back to the finish at Baku and watch George get out of the car.
> Than watch Lewis.
> Do you see a difference ?
> Food for thought.

Yes.

Their cars were clearly setup very differently.

On 2022-06-15 15:30, Bigbird wrote:
> build wrote:
>
>> Did you watch George bound out of the car and dance away? He looked
>> like he was suffering (note that is sarcasm).
>
> You heard his complaints earlier in the weekend though? ( also sarcasm,
> of course you didn't)
>
> So George (58 starts) coped better than Lewis (296 starts) and this
> shocks your dumb ass. (clue in the last two words)
>

THE TWO MERCEDES CARS HAD DIFFERENT SETUPS!

On Wednesday, June 15, 2022 at 10:38:53 PM UTC-6, Alan wrote:

> THE TWO MERCEDES CARS HAD DIFFERENT SETUPS!

FUCK YOU