Well that was fun !

All thru the field, all thru the race.

geoff

On Sunday, April 2, 2023 at 6:35:09 AM UTC-5, geoff wrote:
> Well that was fun !
>
> All thru the field, all thru the race.
>
> Geoff
Yes, good fun and I quite enjoyed Jenson being in the commentary box. His experience and humor we a refreshing balance to Croft's over the top "enthusiasm."

FWIW
DLM

On 4/2/23 04:34, geoff wrote:
> Well that was fun !
>
> All thru the field, all thru the race.
>
> geoff

I disagree.
I thought at the time, and I still think,
that doing a standing start re-start with only 3
laps left in the race is dangerous, wasteful of
materials (cars, drivers, workers) and grossly
unfair.

Huge ego Verstappen had built up a 8 to 10
second lead and was securely holding it.
Eliminating that advantage and subjecting
him and all the others to the risk and vagaries
of a 18 car drag race is not proper.

Four cars quite damaged for no justifiable reason!

And if that 're-start' was justified, since no
progress was made (zero laps), why did they then
do safety car laps for a rolling 're-start'
to yellow flag finish at checkered flag?

Why was that non-lap restart required at the end? The race was way passed the halfway point.

On 2023-04-03 10:33 AM, D Munz wrote:
> On Sunday, April 2, 2023 at 6:35:09 AM UTC-5, geoff wrote:
>> Well that was fun !
>>
>> All thru the field, all thru the race.
>>
>> Geoff
> Yes, good fun and I quite enjoyed Jenson being in the commentary box. His experience and humor we a refreshing balance to Croft's over the top "enthusiasm."
>
> FWIW
> DLM

Yes, Jensen was a lovely change from Martin Brundle. Loved the enthusiasm!

On 2023-04-03 12:32 PM, XYXPDQ wrote:
> Why was that non-lap restart required at the end? The race was way passed the halfway point.

They certainly did not make the cars run for the full race distance at
Spa, when the race was called early.

OK, I'll admit that the Spa race was stopped because conditions were
considered too dangerous to continue, but I don't really buy into the
theory presented that there was a chance that some car(s) might not
complete the pace car lap and therefore the finishing positions *might*
change despite not being able to pass before the start/finish line when
the race would be over.

a425couple <a425couple@hotmail.com> writes:
> On 4/2/23 04:34, geoff wrote:
>> Well that was fun !
>>
>> All thru the field, all thru the race.
>
> I disagree.
> I thought at the time, and I still think,
> that doing a standing start re-start with only 3
> laps left in the race is dangerous, wasteful of
> materials (cars, drivers, workers) and grossly
> unfair.

Well said.

> Huge ego Verstappen had built up a 8 to 10
> second lead and was securely holding it.
> Eliminating that advantage and subjecting
> him and all the others to the risk and vagaries
> of a 18 car drag race is not proper.
>
> Four cars quite damaged for no justifiable reason!
>
> And if that 're-start' was justified, since no
> progress was made (zero laps), why did they then
> do safety car laps for a rolling 're-start'
> to yellow flag finish at checkered flag?

Because someone has to take the chequered flag. Without the mighty
chequered flag, it's not a race. All hail the chequered flag.

Phil
--
We are no longer hunters and nomads. No longer awed and frightened, as we have
gained some understanding of the world in which we live. As such, we can cast
aside childish remnants from the dawn of our civilization.
-- NotSanguine on SoylentNews, after Eugen Weber in /The Western Tradition/

On 4/3/23 12:49, Phil Carmody wrote:
> a425couple <a425couple@hotmail.com> writes:
>> On 4/2/23 04:34, geoff wrote:
>>> Well that was fun !
>>>
>>> All thru the field, all thru the race.
>>
>> I disagree.
>> I thought at the time, and I still think,
>> that doing a standing start re-start with only 3
>> laps left in the race is dangerous, wasteful of
>> materials (cars, drivers, workers) and grossly
>> unfair.
>
> Well said.
>

Thank you Phil.

>> Huge ego Verstappen had built up a 8 to 10
>> second lead and was securely holding it.
>> Eliminating that advantage and subjecting
>> him and all the others to the risk and vagaries
>> of a 18 car drag race is not proper.
>>
>> Four cars quite damaged for no justifiable reason!
>>
>> And if that 're-start' was justified, since no
>> progress was made (zero laps), why did they then
>> do safety car laps for a rolling 're-start'
>> to yellow flag finish at checkered flag?
>
> Because someone has to take the chequered flag. Without the mighty
> chequered flag, it's not a race. All hail the chequered flag.
> Phil

Yes, Phil. All hail the checkered flag.
I am fully in agreement with that finish Phil,
What I object to is the great risk of a standing
start / drag race with just 3 laps left.
Great temptation to take risks to try passes
that would not be 'real'.
And that danger was proven by the 'bumper car'
games and wrecks.

as a425couple says, it is about the checkered flag - the mass circulation of publicity photos of the winning car passing it (that is also why the safety car pulls into the pits - so that it doesn't block any photos of the finish line etc).

On 4/04/2023 4:30 am, a425couple wrote:
> aged for no justifiable reason!

Yes, the last 'restart' was totally pointless.

geoff

On 4/04/2023 4:30 am, a425couple wrote:
> On 4/2/23 04:34, geoff wrote:
>> Well that was fun !
>>
>> All thru the field, all thru the race.
>>
>> geoff
>
>
> I disagree.
> I thought at the time, and I still think,
> that doing a standing start re-start with only 3
> laps left in the race is dangerous, wasteful of
> materials (cars, drivers, workers) and grossly
> unfair.
>
> Huge ego Verstappen had built up a 8 to 10
> second lead and was securely holding it.
> Eliminating that advantage and subjecting
> him and all the others to the risk and vagaries
> of a 18 car drag race is not proper.
>
> Four cars quite damaged for no justifiable reason!
>
> And if that 're-start' was justified, since no
> progress was made (zero laps), why did they then
> do safety car laps for a rolling 're-start'
> to yellow flag finish at checkered flag?

Noy defending any decisions made by race control but they couldn't do another standing start
because Verstappen crossed the control line in the pits after the red flag meaning they were
already on the last lap as soon as the came out of the pits again.

A standing start would have required an out lap and that would have been the last lap of the race
complete. There's no point starting again with must metres to go.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy little classification
in the DSM"
David Melville

This is not an email and hasn't been checked for viruses by any half-arsed self-promoting software.

geoff <geoff@nospamgeoffwood.org> writes:
> On 4/04/2023 4:30 am, a425couple wrote:
>> aged for no justifiable reason!
>
> Yes, the last 'restart' was totally pointless.

Given that the last restart was completely pointless, and it came about
because of the entirely predictable consequences of the previous
restart, it was the previous restart that should be the focus of our
ire. If they don't make that mistake, the things that happened
afterwards wouldn't be spirited into existence again. It would have
been a minor disappointment to just finish under the SC, but it would
have been fair and not unnecessarily destructive, which I consider to be
more important attributes for a "race".

Phil
--
We are no longer hunters and nomads. No longer awed and frightened, as we have
gained some understanding of the world in which we live. As such, we can cast
aside childish remnants from the dawn of our civilization.
-- NotSanguine on SoylentNews, after Eugen Weber in /The Western Tradition/

a425couple <a425couple@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/2/23 04:34, geoff wrote:
>> Well that was fun !
>>
>> All thru the field, all thru the race.
>
> I disagree.
> I thought at the time, and I still think,
> that doing a standing start re-start with only 3
> laps left in the race is dangerous, wasteful of
> materials (cars, drivers, workers) and grossly
> unfair.

I sympathise with the views of everyone who has come out against the
restart, but let me play devil's advocate briefly...

One of the things that has kept the peace (mostly) in F1 is strict
adherence to the written rules. In fact, whether you look at Abu Dhabi
2021 or a lot of other flare-ups, at its heart is deviation from the
rules/interpretation of the rules in ways that can be interpreted as
partisan. I think there is a case for introducing a new rule to make
this a case where a race *will* end early (let's not have ambiguity or
discretion for the race director on this, please!), that wouldn't have
been available on Sunday. As others have pointed out, there wasn't a
specific rule (on safety, procedure, etc.) that meant you *shouldn't*
complete race distance, so the general rules (and interpretation of the
rules) pretty much tie the hands of the race director to complete race
distance.

So, what's the point? Well, I think poor Russell gives one example. At
any point before race distance, an engine (or any other
mechanical/control) issue could put someone out of the race and change
the outcome. Similarly, drivers can bin it (has happened many times on
cold tyres) or be involved in collisions. Yes, that's simply pointless
risk and very expensive for limited value in terms of the race, but as
it is the drivers really should be able to safely traverse a few laps
behind the safety car without these kinds of incident*.

What I would particularly dislike is for endless arguments about
validity of results (including WDC/WCC) because race directors had
selectively ended races multiple times even more than a few laps ahead
of the chequered flag simply because the result looks settled or (worse)
picked and chose the circumstances under which it did and didn't happen.
That level of discretion would lead to all kinds of claim and
counter-claim.

So, it was something of a farce but I think it was unavoidable.

* Incidentally, I don't agree with those who want to hang Hamilton for
slowing the pack up at the earlier restart, leading to some very
dangerous bunching. These drivers shouldn't be roaring around blind
corners without being ready to slow and stop.

On 2023-04-03 10:13, Darryl Johnson wrote:
> On 2023-04-03 12:32 PM, XYXPDQ wrote:
>> Why was that non-lap restart required at the end?  The race was way
>> passed the halfway point.
>
> They certainly did not make the cars run for the full race distance at
> Spa, when the race was called  early.
>
> OK, I'll admit that the Spa race was stopped because conditions were
> considered too dangerous to continue, but I don't really buy into the
> theory presented that there was a chance that some car(s) might not
> complete the pace car lap and therefore the finishing positions *might*
> change despite not being able to pass before the start/finish line when
> the race would be over.

I think it's pretty obvious that the strategy for a standing start with
only a few laps left is going to be very different than for one with
lots of laps remaining.

The FIA probably needs to have an option to restart a race after a red
with either a standing start or a rolling start depending on the situation.

On Tuesday, 4 April 2023 at 15:49:44 UTC+1, Alan wrote:
> On 2023-04-03 10:13, Darryl Johnson wrote:
> > On 2023-04-03 12:32 PM, XYXPDQ wrote:
> >> Why was that non-lap restart required at the end? The race was way
> >> passed the halfway point.
> >
> > They certainly did not make the cars run for the full race distance at
> > Spa, when the race was called early.
> >
> > OK, I'll admit that the Spa race was stopped because conditions were
> > considered too dangerous to continue, but I don't really buy into the
> > theory presented that there was a chance that some car(s) might not
> > complete the pace car lap and therefore the finishing positions *might*
> > change despite not being able to pass before the start/finish line when
> > the race would be over.
> I think it's pretty obvious that the strategy for a standing start with
> only a few laps left is going to be very different than for one with
> lots of laps remaining.
>
> The FIA probably needs to have an option to restart a race after a red
> with either a standing start or a rolling start depending on the situation.
The reality is that there is no perfectly sporting way to restart a motor
race without some winners and some losers. Opportunistic pitstops,
pitstops taken on the lap before the stop / SC, etc etc all mean it's
imperfect.

But it does just need some clarity.

Maybe something like this?
- Red flag before 50% race distance; standing restart
- Red flag before 90% race distance; SC rolling restart
- Red flag after 90% race distance; chequered flag

On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 8:49:44 AM UTC-6, Alan wrote:

> I think it's pretty obvious

I think it's pretty obvious that you are a fucking idiot.

On 4/5/23 00:55, Matt Larkin wrote:
> On Tuesday, 4 April 2023 at 15:49:44 UTC+1, Alan wrote:
>> On 2023-04-03 10:13, Darryl Johnson wrote:
>>> On 2023-04-03 12:32 PM, XYXPDQ wrote:
>>>> Why was that non-lap restart required at the end? The race was way
>>>> passed the halfway point.
>>>
>>> They certainly did not make the cars run for the full race distance at
>>> Spa, when the race was called early.
>>>
>>> OK, I'll admit that the Spa race was stopped because conditions were
>>> considered too dangerous to continue, but I don't really buy into the
>>> theory presented that there was a chance that some car(s) might not
>>> complete the pace car lap and therefore the finishing positions *might*
>>> change despite not being able to pass before the start/finish line when
>>> the race would be over.
>> I think it's pretty obvious that the strategy for a standing start with
>> only a few laps left is going to be very different than for one with
>> lots of laps remaining.
>>
>> The FIA probably needs to have an option to restart a race after a red
>> with either a standing start or a rolling start depending on the situation.
> The reality is that there is no perfectly sporting way to restart a motor
> race without some winners and some losers. Opportunistic pitstops,
> pitstops taken on the lap before the stop / SC, etc etc all mean it's
> imperfect.
>
> But it does just need some clarity.
>
> Maybe something like this?
> - Red flag before 50% race distance; standing restart
> - Red flag before 90% race distance; SC rolling restart
> - Red flag after 90% race distance; chequered flag

Matt, the above is reasonable.
Although, personally, I would never wish the standing restarts.
Standing starts are dangerous.
A reasonable and justifiable running order is established by
racing. In a normal SC rolling restart there would commonly
be about 1 second gap between cars. Thus, if a driver is really on top
of his game and willing to take some risks, they might gain
one spot. In a standing start, a driver is really on top of his game
and willing to take risks might gain up to 4 or 5 spots. I think that
is unfair and way too risky.

On 4/5/2023 1:08 PM, a425couple wrote:
> On 4/5/23 00:55, Matt Larkin wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 4 April 2023 at 15:49:44 UTC+1, Alan wrote:
>>> On 2023-04-03 10:13, Darryl Johnson wrote:
>>>> On 2023-04-03 12:32 PM, XYXPDQ wrote:
>>>>> Why was that non-lap restart required at the end?  The race was way
>>>>> passed the halfway point.
>>>>
>>>> They certainly did not make the cars run for the full race distance at
>>>> Spa, when the race was called  early.
>>>>
>>>> OK, I'll admit that the Spa race was stopped because conditions were
>>>> considered too dangerous to continue, but I don't really buy into the
>>>> theory presented that there was a chance that some car(s) might not
>>>> complete the pace car lap and therefore the finishing positions *might*
>>>> change despite not being able to pass before the start/finish line when
>>>> the race would be over.
>>> I think it's pretty obvious that the strategy for a standing start with
>>> only a few laps left is going to be very different than for one with
>>> lots of laps remaining.
>>>
>>> The FIA probably needs to have an option to restart a race after a red
>>> with either a standing start or a rolling start depending on the
>>> situation.
>> The reality is that there is no perfectly sporting way to restart a motor
>> race without some winners and some losers.  Opportunistic pitstops,
>> pitstops taken on the lap before the stop / SC, etc etc all mean it's
>> imperfect.
>>
>> But it does just need some clarity.
>>
>> Maybe something like this?
>> - Red flag before 50% race distance; standing restart
>> - Red flag before 90% race distance; SC rolling restart
>> - Red flag after 90% race distance; chequered flag
>
> Matt, the above is reasonable.
> Although, personally, I would never wish the standing restarts.
> Standing starts are dangerous.
> A reasonable and justifiable running order is established by
> racing.  In a normal SC rolling restart there would commonly
> be about 1 second gap between cars.  Thus, if a driver is really on top
> of his game and willing to take some risks, they might gain
> one spot.  In a standing start, a driver is really on top of his game
> and willing to take risks might gain up to 4 or 5 spots.  I think that
> is unfair and way too risky.
>
>
>
>

A final lap standing restart is an 'all or nothing' proposition -- which
we saw play out.

On 2023-04-05 10:43, News wrote:
> On 4/5/2023 1:08 PM, a425couple wrote:
>> On 4/5/23 00:55, Matt Larkin wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, 4 April 2023 at 15:49:44 UTC+1, Alan wrote:
>>>> On 2023-04-03 10:13, Darryl Johnson wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-04-03 12:32 PM, XYXPDQ wrote:
>>>>>> Why was that non-lap restart required at the end?  The race was way
>>>>>> passed the halfway point.
>>>>>
>>>>> They certainly did not make the cars run for the full race distance at
>>>>> Spa, when the race was called  early.
>>>>>
>>>>> OK, I'll admit that the Spa race was stopped because conditions were
>>>>> considered too dangerous to continue, but I don't really buy into the
>>>>> theory presented that there was a chance that some car(s) might not
>>>>> complete the pace car lap and therefore the finishing positions
>>>>> *might*
>>>>> change despite not being able to pass before the start/finish line
>>>>> when
>>>>> the race would be over.
>>>> I think it's pretty obvious that the strategy for a standing start with
>>>> only a few laps left is going to be very different than for one with
>>>> lots of laps remaining.
>>>>
>>>> The FIA probably needs to have an option to restart a race after a red
>>>> with either a standing start or a rolling start depending on the
>>>> situation.
>>> The reality is that there is no perfectly sporting way to restart a
>>> motor
>>> race without some winners and some losers.  Opportunistic pitstops,
>>> pitstops taken on the lap before the stop / SC, etc etc all mean it's
>>> imperfect.
>>>
>>> But it does just need some clarity.
>>>
>>> Maybe something like this?
>>> - Red flag before 50% race distance; standing restart
>>> - Red flag before 90% race distance; SC rolling restart
>>> - Red flag after 90% race distance; chequered flag
>>
>> Matt, the above is reasonable.
>> Although, personally, I would never wish the standing restarts.
>> Standing starts are dangerous.
>> A reasonable and justifiable running order is established by
>> racing.  In a normal SC rolling restart there would commonly
>> be about 1 second gap between cars.  Thus, if a driver is really on
>> top of his game and willing to take some risks, they might gain
>> one spot.  In a standing start, a driver is really on top of his game
>> and willing to take risks might gain up to 4 or 5 spots.  I think that
>> is unfair and way too risky.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> A final lap standing restart is an 'all or nothing' proposition -- which
> we saw play out.

No. We did not see a "final lap standing restart".

The second standing restart was with 3 laps remaining (flagged red on
lap 55 of a 58 lap race.

Get your facts right.

On 4/5/2023 2:33 PM, Alan wrote:
> On 2023-04-05 10:43, News wrote:
>> On 4/5/2023 1:08 PM, a425couple wrote:
>>> On 4/5/23 00:55, Matt Larkin wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, 4 April 2023 at 15:49:44 UTC+1, Alan wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-04-03 10:13, Darryl Johnson wrote:
>>>>>> On 2023-04-03 12:32 PM, XYXPDQ wrote:
>>>>>>> Why was that non-lap restart required at the end?  The race was way
>>>>>>> passed the halfway point.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They certainly did not make the cars run for the full race
>>>>>> distance at
>>>>>> Spa, when the race was called  early.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK, I'll admit that the Spa race was stopped because conditions were
>>>>>> considered too dangerous to continue, but I don't really buy into the
>>>>>> theory presented that there was a chance that some car(s) might not
>>>>>> complete the pace car lap and therefore the finishing positions
>>>>>> *might*
>>>>>> change despite not being able to pass before the start/finish line
>>>>>> when
>>>>>> the race would be over.
>>>>> I think it's pretty obvious that the strategy for a standing start
>>>>> with
>>>>> only a few laps left is going to be very different than for one with
>>>>> lots of laps remaining.
>>>>>
>>>>> The FIA probably needs to have an option to restart a race after a red
>>>>> with either a standing start or a rolling start depending on the
>>>>> situation.
>>>> The reality is that there is no perfectly sporting way to restart a
>>>> motor
>>>> race without some winners and some losers.  Opportunistic pitstops,
>>>> pitstops taken on the lap before the stop / SC, etc etc all mean it's
>>>> imperfect.
>>>>
>>>> But it does just need some clarity.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe something like this?
>>>> - Red flag before 50% race distance; standing restart
>>>> - Red flag before 90% race distance; SC rolling restart
>>>> - Red flag after 90% race distance; chequered flag
>>>
>>> Matt, the above is reasonable.
>>> Although, personally, I would never wish the standing restarts.
>>> Standing starts are dangerous.
>>> A reasonable and justifiable running order is established by
>>> racing.  In a normal SC rolling restart there would commonly
>>> be about 1 second gap between cars.  Thus, if a driver is really on
>>> top of his game and willing to take some risks, they might gain
>>> one spot.  In a standing start, a driver is really on top of his game
>>> and willing to take risks might gain up to 4 or 5 spots.  I think
>>> that is unfair and way too risky.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> A final lap standing restart is an 'all or nothing' proposition --
>> which we saw play out.
>
> No. We did not see a "final lap standing restart".
>
> The second standing restart was with 3 laps remaining (flagged red on
> lap 55 of a 58 lap race.
>
> Get your facts right.

Distinction without much of a difference -- 'all or nothing'

"It was decided that the race would be restarted with the final lap
completed behind the Safety Car, but in the order before the final
standing restart and ensuing mess."

On 2023-04-05 12:03, News wrote:
> On 4/5/2023 2:33 PM, Alan wrote:
>> On 2023-04-05 10:43, News wrote:
>>> On 4/5/2023 1:08 PM, a425couple wrote:
>>>> On 4/5/23 00:55, Matt Larkin wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, 4 April 2023 at 15:49:44 UTC+1, Alan wrote:
>>>>>> On 2023-04-03 10:13, Darryl Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2023-04-03 12:32 PM, XYXPDQ wrote:
>>>>>>>> Why was that non-lap restart required at the end?  The race was way
>>>>>>>> passed the halfway point.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They certainly did not make the cars run for the full race
>>>>>>> distance at
>>>>>>> Spa, when the race was called  early.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OK, I'll admit that the Spa race was stopped because conditions were
>>>>>>> considered too dangerous to continue, but I don't really buy into
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> theory presented that there was a chance that some car(s) might not
>>>>>>> complete the pace car lap and therefore the finishing positions
>>>>>>> *might*
>>>>>>> change despite not being able to pass before the start/finish
>>>>>>> line when
>>>>>>> the race would be over.
>>>>>> I think it's pretty obvious that the strategy for a standing start
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> only a few laps left is going to be very different than for one with
>>>>>> lots of laps remaining.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The FIA probably needs to have an option to restart a race after a
>>>>>> red
>>>>>> with either a standing start or a rolling start depending on the
>>>>>> situation.
>>>>> The reality is that there is no perfectly sporting way to restart a
>>>>> motor
>>>>> race without some winners and some losers.  Opportunistic pitstops,
>>>>> pitstops taken on the lap before the stop / SC, etc etc all mean it's
>>>>> imperfect.
>>>>>
>>>>> But it does just need some clarity.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe something like this?
>>>>> - Red flag before 50% race distance; standing restart
>>>>> - Red flag before 90% race distance; SC rolling restart
>>>>> - Red flag after 90% race distance; chequered flag
>>>>
>>>> Matt, the above is reasonable.
>>>> Although, personally, I would never wish the standing restarts.
>>>> Standing starts are dangerous.
>>>> A reasonable and justifiable running order is established by
>>>> racing.  In a normal SC rolling restart there would commonly
>>>> be about 1 second gap between cars.  Thus, if a driver is really on
>>>> top of his game and willing to take some risks, they might gain
>>>> one spot.  In a standing start, a driver is really on top of his
>>>> game and willing to take risks might gain up to 4 or 5 spots.  I
>>>> think that is unfair and way too risky.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> A final lap standing restart is an 'all or nothing' proposition --
>>> which we saw play out.
>>
>> No. We did not see a "final lap standing restart".
>>
>> The second standing restart was with 3 laps remaining (flagged red on
>> lap 55 of a 58 lap race.
>>
>> Get your facts right.
>
>
> Distinction without much of a difference -- 'all or nothing'
>
> "It was decided that the race would be restarted with the final lap
> completed behind the Safety Car, but in the order before the final
> standing restart and ensuing mess."

I agree that a restart with only a few laps remaining is a bad idea.

But it never helps a discussion to get the facts wrong.

On Wednesday, April 5, 2023 at 1:50:34 PM UTC-6, Alan wrote:
> But it never helps a discussion to get the facts wrong.

fuck off
you fucking cunt

On Wednesday, April 5, 2023 at 12:33:20 PM UTC-6, Alan wrote:

> Get your facts right.

fuck off
you fucking cunt

On Wednesday, April 5, 2023 at 12:33:20 PM UTC-6, Alan wrote:

> Get your facts right.

you are a fucking idiot
thats a fact