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sport / rec.sport.soccer / Re: Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?

SubjectAuthor
* Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?Al Kamista
+* Re: Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?Futbolmetrix
|`* Re: Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?Al Kamista
| `* Re: Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?MH
|  `- Re: Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?Al Kamista
`* Re: Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?Sheridan Elliot
 `* Re: Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?MH
  `* Re: Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?Sheridan Elliot
   `* Re: Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?MH
    `- Re: Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?Sheridan Elliot

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Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?

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Subject: Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?
From: alkami...@hotmail.com (Al Kamista)
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 by: Al Kamista - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 16:24 UTC

ESPNFC asked three of its writers - Mark Ogden, Julien Laurens, and Alex Kirkland if they missed the AGR. Responses below.

Ogden is the sentimentalists, while Laurens of course gives the best response.

Do you miss the away goals rule?

Kirkland: More than miss it, I've had to keep reminding myself it's no longer a factor. Away goals were so dominant in the discourse for so many years that it will take a little longer to break the habit. We haven't seen a significant impact yet. Real Madrid's position when Mbappe scored at the Bernabeu to put PSG 2-0 up on aggregate felt hopeless, regardless. There were fears that the rule's abolition would lead more games to go to extra time or be decided on penalties -- so far that hasn't been the case.

Ogden: Yes, the knockout ties have lacked an element of jeopardy without away goals. Rather than being an outdated concept, the rule posed a tactical challenge to teams and coaches in terms of whether they were bold enough to push for a goal on the road, at the risk of leaving gaps in defence.

Moreover, deciding games by away goals at least reflected something that happened during the course of the game. Surely it is better for it to be decided by a goal in open play than via a penalty shootout? Both teams have the opportunity to score an away goal, so those on the wrong end only have themselves to blame.

Laurens: Absolutely not. It was a pointless and unfair rule. I can guarantee that United and Juventus, for example, would have played for a 0-0 draw at home in the second legs to go through. I'm sorry, but a team playing for a draw twice over two legs should not be able to qualify without going to a penalty shootout. Instead, we had some fascinating second legs where everybody had to attack and had to score. That's what football is about. As for the away goals rule posing a tactical challenge, that's ridiculous. All it used to do was make teams be more calculating and cautious.

Re: Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?

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Subject: Re: Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?
From: daniele....@gmail.com (Futbolmetrix)
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 by: Futbolmetrix - Thu, 17 Mar 2022 19:49 UTC

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 12:24:08 PM UTC-4, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> ESPNFC asked three of its writers - Mark Ogden, Julien Laurens, and Alex Kirkland if they missed the AGR. Responses below.
>
> Ogden is the sentimentalists, while Laurens of course gives the best response.

Laurens is talking out of his behind.

>
> Kirkland: There were fears that the rule's abolition would lead more games to go to extra time or be decided on penalties
> -- so far that hasn't been the case.

Preliminary rounds also exist, and the number of matches going to ET has more about doubled. In the long run, it's likely that ET will happen in about 15% of ties, and PKs in about 6%.

> Ogden: Yes, the knockout ties have lacked an element of jeopardy without away goals. Rather than being an outdated concept, the rule posed a tactical challenge to teams and coaches in terms of whether they were bold enough to push for a goal on the road, at the risk of leaving gaps in defence.

Yeah, that's BS. The added incentive to attack by the away team was counterbalanced by the added incentive of the home team to prevent a goal.

>
> Laurens: Absolutely not. It was a pointless and unfair rule. I can guarantee that United and Juventus, for example, would have played for a 0-0 draw at home in the second legs to go through. I'm sorry, but a team playing for a draw twice over two legs should not be able to qualify without going to a penalty shootout. Instead, we had some fascinating second legs where everybody had to attack and had to score. That's what football is about. As for the away goals rule posing a tactical challenge, that's ridiculous. All it used to do was make teams be more calculating and cautious.

The guy misses the point completely. The point of AGR should never have been about rewarding this team or the other. It's one way to settle ties. The direct effect of the abolition of AGR is that you have more minutes of the tie in which neither team is eliminated, and so neither of the two has incentives to take risks. Result: worse football. This has nothing to do with my allegiance to Juventus.

Re: Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?

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Subject: Re: Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?
From: alkami...@hotmail.com (Al Kamista)
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 by: Al Kamista - Fri, 18 Mar 2022 14:52 UTC

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 3:49:45 PM UTC-4, Futbolmetrix wrote:
> On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 12:24:08 PM UTC-4, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > ESPNFC asked three of its writers - Mark Ogden, Julien Laurens, and Alex Kirkland if they missed the AGR. Responses below.

> > Laurens: Absolutely not. It was a pointless and unfair rule. I can guarantee that United and Juventus, for example, would have played for a 0-0 draw at home in the second legs to go through. I'm sorry, but a team playing for a draw twice over two legs should not be able to qualify without going to a penalty shootout. Instead, we had some fascinating second legs where everybody had to attack and had to score. That's what football is about. As for the away goals rule posing a tactical challenge, that's ridiculous. All it used to do was make teams be more calculating and cautious.

> The guy misses the point completely. The point of AGR should never have been about rewarding this team or the other. It's one way to settle ties. The direct effect of the abolition of AGR is that you have more minutes of the tie in which neither team is eliminated, and so neither of the two has incentives to take risks. Result: worse football.

This is all speculation. We are not even through one full European season without the AGR. We need a larger sample size to make any conclusive judgements.

Furthermore, justice trumps excitement. An artificial tiebreaker is no way to govern the sport. As someone here said in this debate a few years ago, the AGR is so arbitrary that you could just as well have another tiebreaker, e.g. who scores first in the tie, and it would be just as arbitrary.

Re: Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?

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Subject: Re: Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?
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 by: MH - Sun, 20 Mar 2022 20:07 UTC

On 2022-03-18 08:52, Al Kamista wrote:
> On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 3:49:45 PM UTC-4, Futbolmetrix wrote:
>> On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 12:24:08 PM UTC-4, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> ESPNFC asked three of its writers - Mark Ogden, Julien Laurens, and Alex Kirkland if they missed the AGR. Responses below.
>
>>> Laurens: Absolutely not. It was a pointless and unfair rule. I can guarantee that United and Juventus, for example, would have played for a 0-0 draw at home in the second legs to go through. I'm sorry, but a team playing for a draw twice over two legs should not be able to qualify without going to a penalty shootout. Instead, we had some fascinating second legs where everybody had to attack and had to score. That's what football is about. As for the away goals rule posing a tactical challenge, that's ridiculous. All it used to do was make teams be more calculating and cautious.
>
>> The guy misses the point completely. The point of AGR should never have been about rewarding this team or the other. It's one way to settle ties. The direct effect of the abolition of AGR is that you have more minutes of the tie in which neither team is eliminated, and so neither of the two has incentives to take risks. Result: worse football.
>
> This is all speculation. We are not even through one full European season without the AGR. We need a larger sample size to make any conclusive judgements.
>
> Furthermore, justice trumps excitement. An artificial tiebreaker is no way to govern the sport. As someone here said in this debate a few years ago, the AGR is so arbitrary that you could just as well have another tiebreaker, e.g. who scores first in the tie, and it would be just as arbitrary.

Or you could use something less arbitrary, such as which team had the
better record so far in the competition (as done in Mexico in their
playoffs) that year, and if still unresolved go back to previous years
or the team's UEFA coefficient. Both of those criteria would make it
less likely that teams would mail it in once they had won their group or
guaranteed progress to the next round.

Re: Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?

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Subject: Re: Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?
From: alkami...@hotmail.com (Al Kamista)
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 by: Al Kamista - Mon, 21 Mar 2022 12:52 UTC

On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 4:07:18 PM UTC-4, MH wrote:
> On 2022-03-18 08:52, Al Kamista wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 3:49:45 PM UTC-4, Futbolmetrix wrote:
> >> On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 12:24:08 PM UTC-4, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>> ESPNFC asked three of its writers - Mark Ogden, Julien Laurens, and Alex Kirkland if they missed the AGR. Responses below.
> >
> >>> Laurens: Absolutely not. It was a pointless and unfair rule. I can guarantee that United and Juventus, for example, would have played for a 0-0 draw at home in the second legs to go through. I'm sorry, but a team playing for a draw twice over two legs should not be able to qualify without going to a penalty shootout. Instead, we had some fascinating second legs where everybody had to attack and had to score. That's what football is about. As for the away goals rule posing a tactical challenge, that's ridiculous. All it used to do was make teams be more calculating and cautious.
> >
> >> The guy misses the point completely. The point of AGR should never have been about rewarding this team or the other. It's one way to settle ties. The direct effect of the abolition of AGR is that you have more minutes of the tie in which neither team is eliminated, and so neither of the two has incentives to take risks. Result: worse football.
> >
> > This is all speculation. We are not even through one full European season without the AGR. We need a larger sample size to make any conclusive judgements.
> >
> > Furthermore, justice trumps excitement. An artificial tiebreaker is no way to govern the sport. As someone here said in this debate a few years ago, the AGR is so arbitrary that you could just as well have another tiebreaker, e.g. who scores first in the tie, and it would be just as arbitrary.
> Or you could use something less arbitrary, such as which team had the
> better record so far in the competition (as done in Mexico in their
> playoffs) that year, and if still unresolved go back to previous years
> or the team's UEFA coefficient. Both of those criteria would make it
> less likely that teams would mail it in once they had won their group or
> guaranteed progress to the next round.

Or which team had fewer yellow/red cards. It would also be "something that happened during the course of the game" to placate Mark Ogden's strange aversion to something happening on the pitch a few short minutes after extra time.

Cynical play from dirty teams like Atletico would come at a potential cost, and there's nothing arbitrary about it.

Re: Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?

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Subject: Re: Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?
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 by: Sheridan Elliot - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 03:48 UTC

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 4:24:08 PM UTC, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> ESPNFC asked three of its writers - Mark Ogden, Julien Laurens, and Alex Kirkland if they missed the AGR. Responses below.
>
> Ogden is the sentimentalists, while Laurens of course gives the best response.
>
> Do you miss the away goals rule?

It's pretty simple really, any rule which incentivises a team to lose 2-1 rather than 5-4 is alien to the purpose of the game, particularly in an era where clubs are globalised multinational corporation fielding teams of influencer/entrepreneurs who couldn't care less what city/country/continent they're in at any given time.

Re: Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?

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Subject: Re: Have we ever discussed the away goals rule on RSS?
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 by: MH - Sat, 23 Apr 2022 22:44 UTC

On 2022-04-22 21:48, Sheridan Elliot wrote:
> On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 4:24:08 PM UTC, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> ESPNFC asked three of its writers - Mark Ogden, Julien Laurens, and Alex Kirkland if they missed the AGR. Responses below.
>>
>> Ogden is the sentimentalists, while Laurens of course gives the best response.
>>
>> Do you miss the away goals rule?
>
> It's pretty simple really, any rule which incentivises a team to lose 2-1 rather than 5-4 is alien to the purpose of the game, particularly in an era where clubs are globalised multinational corporation fielding teams of influencer/entrepreneurs who couldn't care less what city/country/continent they're in at any given time.

Well there's a blast from the past ! How are you, Sheridan?

I agree with you on the away goal rule, btw.

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From: sheridan...@gmail.com (Sheridan Elliot)
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 by: Sheridan Elliot - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 00:55 UTC

On Saturday, April 23, 2022 at 11:44:05 PM UTC+1, MH wrote:

> Well there's a blast from the past ! How are you, Sheridan?
>
> I agree with you on the away goal rule, btw.

Good, thanks! Well, the state of the world aside. Did you ever think back in the halcyon early-millennium RSS days that you'd be looking forward to Canada playing in the World Cup again?

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 by: MH - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 03:34 UTC

On 2022-04-23 18:55, Sheridan Elliot wrote:
> On Saturday, April 23, 2022 at 11:44:05 PM UTC+1, MH wrote:
>
>> Well there's a blast from the past ! How are you, Sheridan?
>>
>> I agree with you on the away goal rule, btw.
>
> Good, thanks! Well, the state of the world aside. Did you ever think back in the halcyon early-millennium RSS days that you'd be looking forward to Canada playing in the World Cup again?

Not really. It was going to require some big changes in the
organization of the sport here, plus an exceptional crop of players to
come along.

Now if only Scotland could join them, though that seems unlikely. In
1986 I would not have thought that having both my teams at a world cup
might not happen again in my lifetime. Still might not.

How is the Airtricity league? I check the results and standings every
now and again, but with less regularity this last 8 years after my old
friend Mick (a Sligo Rovers supporter) passed on (still in his 50s, alas).

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 by: Sheridan Elliot - Sun, 24 Apr 2022 04:13 UTC

On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 4:34:05 AM UTC+1, MH wrote:
> On 2022-04-23 18:55, Sheridan Elliot wrote:
> How is the Airtricity league? I check the results and standings every
> now and again, but with less regularity this last 8 years after my old
> friend Mick (a Sligo Rovers supporter) passed on (still in his 50s, alas)..

I'm very sorry to hear that. I was in Sligo town a few weeks ago, it's a very underrated place. Lots of dereliction (like every Irish town), but some stunning architecture. The 19th-century town hall is modelled on a Venetian palazzo. Sadly, there were two shocking (arguably serial) killings in Sligo the weekend I was there - the perpetrator has since been arrested.

The League of Ireland is in relatively rude health, actually. Crowds came back in force after the last Covid lockdown. They're as big as they've ever been in my lifetime. The standard of play is much better, and a combination of very effective community-focused marketing and the popularity of the national team manager Stephen Kenny (a League of Ireland man) has completely transformed the domestic game.

It looks as though the league is between Derry City and Shamrock Rovers this year, though there's a long way to go. Sligo Rovers looking good for Europe.

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