Al Kamista écrivit en ce vendredi :
> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 8:31:01 AM UTC-4, Blueshirt wrote:
>> Werner Pichler wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:14:53 PM UTC+2, Blueshirt
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Realistically, the winner of the European Super League, I
>>>> mean UEFA Champions League, are always going to be one of
>>>> the big teams from one of the 'big five' European
>>>> leagues... the competition is designed that way.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see it changing anytime soon.
>>>
>>> Ajax were a minute away from reaching the final three years
>>> ago. It's not entirely inconceivable.
>> A minute is a long time in football! :-)
>>
>> No it's not inconceivable. But the way the tournament has
>> been geared with all the changes over the years, it does
>> favour the top teams from the big European leagues. What
>> with seedings and 'this' team can't play 'that' team,
>> etc...
>
> 5 leagues is still a lot.

What ? Over more than 50 ?

> I am not sure what people want, the footballing equivalent of
> communism?

Except Paris in 2020, Monaco and Porto in 2004, all the
finalists since 1997 come from *four* contries. 25 years, 56
countries playing, 50 finalists, 47 from only 4 countries :
- Spain : 16
- England : 15
- Italy : 9
- Germany : 9
- France : 2
- Portugal : 1

I do prefer "communism football" than that, in fact.

> It is at the end of the day, a commercial sport. And UEFA now
> has 3 tournaments, exactly for the reason that people are
> complaining - that smaller leagues have a chance at
> continental glory. The scenes at Ibrox were something
> yesterday; it was louder than the Bernabeu was a day earlier.

The good format was the old with three cups : one for
champions, one for cup winners, one for best non-champions and
non-cup winners.

No groups, only two-legs matches with away goal, no more than
one preliminary round. That is the most exciting.

I have stopped watching UCL since the joke of Real-Liverpool
final, except Paris' final in 2020. I fell this competition too
boring...

I do prefer Europa League : more variety of teams, more
countries, more passion from the public. OK, in reality, I
stopped watching football this year since the cancelation of
the away goal rule, the last composante which was gaving
interest to games.

I made an exception for Marseille-Feyenoord on Thursday, just a
game to see that nothing has changed in French football
timidity nor in refeereing of French teams.

So, I'm going to go to sleep for years a new time.

--
Ixion

Al Kamista écrivit en ce vendredi :
> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 8:31:01 AM UTC-4, Blueshirt
> wrote:
>> Werner Pichler wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:14:53 PM UTC+2, Blueshirt
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Realistically, the winner of the European Super League,
>>>> I mean UEFA Champions League, are always going to be
>>>> one of the big teams from one of the 'big five'
>>>> European leagues... the competition is designed that
>>>> way.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see it changing anytime soon.
>>>
>>> Ajax were a minute away from reaching the final three
>>> years ago. It's not entirely inconceivable.
>> A minute is a long time in football! :-)
>>
>> No it's not inconceivable. But the way the tournament has
>> been geared with all the changes over the years, it does
>> favour the top teams from the big European leagues. What
>> with seedings and 'this' team can't play 'that' team,
>> etc...
>
> 5 leagues is still a lot.

What ? Over more than 50 ?

> I am not sure what people want, the footballing equivalent
> of
> communism?

Except Paris in 2020, Monaco and Porto in 2004, all the
finalists since 1997 come from *four* contries. 25 years, 56
countries playing, 50 finalists, 47 from only 4 countries :
- Spain : 16
- England : 15
- Italy : 9
- Germany : 9
- France : 2
- Portugal : 1

I do prefer "communism football" than that, in fact.

> It is at the end of the day, a commercial sport. And UEFA
> now has 3 tournaments, exactly for the reason that people
> are complaining - that smaller leagues have a chance at
> continental glory. The scenes at Ibrox were something
> yesterday; it was louder than the Bernabeu was a day
> earlier.

The good format was the old with three cups : one for
champions, one for cup winners, one for best non-champions and
non-cup winners.

No groups, only two-legs matches with away goal, no more than
one preliminary round. That is the most exciting.

I have stopped watching UCL since the joke of Real-Liverpool
final, except Paris' final in 2020. I fell this competition too
boring...

I do prefer Europa League : more variety of teams, more
countries, more passion from the public. OK, in reality, I
stopped watching football this year since the cancelation of
the away goal rule, the last composante which was gaving
interest to games.

I made an exception for Marseille-Feyenoord on Thursday, just a
game to see that nothing has changed in French football
timidity nor in refeereing of French teams.

So, I'm going to go to sleep for years a new time.

--
Ixion

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 9:40:47 AM UTC-4, ixion martin - GdBx wrote:
> Al Kamista écrivit en ce vendredi :
> > On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 8:31:01 AM UTC-4, Blueshirt wrote:
> >> Werner Pichler wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 12:14:53 PM UTC+2, Blueshirt
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Realistically, the winner of the European Super League, I
> >>>> mean UEFA Champions League, are always going to be one of
> >>>> the big teams from one of the 'big five' European
> >>>> leagues... the competition is designed that way.
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't see it changing anytime soon.
> >>>
> >>> Ajax were a minute away from reaching the final three years
> >>> ago. It's not entirely inconceivable.
> >> A minute is a long time in football! :-)
> >>
> >> No it's not inconceivable. But the way the tournament has
> >> been geared with all the changes over the years, it does
> >> favour the top teams from the big European leagues. What
> >> with seedings and 'this' team can't play 'that' team,
> >> etc...
> >
> > 5 leagues is still a lot.
> What ? Over more than 50 ?
> > I am not sure what people want, the footballing equivalent of
> > communism?
> Except Paris in 2020, Monaco and Porto in 2004, all the
> finalists since 1997 come from *four* contries. 25 years, 56
> countries playing, 50 finalists, 47 from only 4 countries :
> - Spain : 16
> - England : 15
> - Italy : 9
> - Germany : 9
> - France : 2
> - Portugal : 1

While the Europa League has had finalists from 12 different countries in the same period.

Keep mind that only 16 European countries have populations greater than 10 million. Every pipsqueak little nation does not have the divine right to send teams to continental finals.

On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 2:15:09 PM UTC+2, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 7:42:36 AM UTC-4, Real Mardin wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 11:06:01 AM UTC+1, Blueshirt wrote:
> > > Real Mardin wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:00:42 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 8:31:01 AM UTC-4, Blueshirt wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No it's not inconceivable. But the way the tournament has been
> > > > > > geared with all the changes over the years, it does favour the
> > > > > > top teams from the big European leagues. What with seedings and
> > > > > > 'this' team can't play 'that' team, etc...
> > > > > 5 leagues is still a lot.
> > > >
> > > > What?!? There are 55 UEFA members. Granted some are bigger than
> > > > others but if the finalists are mainly coming from the same 5 nations
> > > > that means clubs from 89% of nations are in effect shut out of the
> > > > final.
> > > >
> > > > > I am not sure what people want, the footballing equivalent of
> > > > > communism?
> > > >
> > > > We didn't have the footballing equivalent of communism in the 80's
> > > > and 90's, as always some clubs were richer than others, but we did
> > > > have a more diverse range of European finalists with the likes of
> > > > Steaua Bucharest, Red Star Belgrade, PSV, Videoton, IFK Goteborg,
> > > > Salzburg, Galatasaray, Dinamo Tiblisi, Carl Zeiss Jena, Standard
> > > > Liege, Rapid Vienna, Dundee United, Aberdeen, Mechelen and Dynamo
> > > > Kyiv all making finals.
> > >
> > > The fact that UEFA tournaments back then had open draws also helped the
> > > non-fashionable teams progress in the tournaments. Two BIG teams could
> > > draw each other in the early rounds of the European Cup and one would
> > > get knocked out. This was what helped lead to the creation of the
> > > Champions League as the 'big' teams didn't like the idea of a cup
> > > tournament that they could get knocked out of early.
> > Yeah exactly, I read years ago that it was Bayern Munich and Real Madrid getting each other in the first round of the European Cup in the late 80’s that inspired the creation of the Champions League.
>
> Not only that, but a pure knockout format favors lesser teams. So the present day status quo is as much a result of the group stage format as it is of financial dispairty. Without a group stage I'm sure we'd see a lot
> more Villareal type runs.
>
> The problem also is, Europe has way too many countries for such a small continent (no wonder they break out in war every few decades).

What a supremely American thing to say.

Ciao,
Werner

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 10:27:40 AM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:
> On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 2:15:09 PM UTC+2, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 7:42:36 AM UTC-4, Real Mardin wrote:
> > > On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 11:06:01 AM UTC+1, Blueshirt wrote:
> > > > Real Mardin wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:00:42 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 8:31:01 AM UTC-4, Blueshirt wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No it's not inconceivable. But the way the tournament has been
> > > > > > > geared with all the changes over the years, it does favour the
> > > > > > > top teams from the big European leagues. What with seedings and
> > > > > > > 'this' team can't play 'that' team, etc...
> > > > > > 5 leagues is still a lot.
> > > > >
> > > > > What?!? There are 55 UEFA members. Granted some are bigger than
> > > > > others but if the finalists are mainly coming from the same 5 nations
> > > > > that means clubs from 89% of nations are in effect shut out of the
> > > > > final.
> > > > >
> > > > > > I am not sure what people want, the footballing equivalent of
> > > > > > communism?
> > > > >
> > > > > We didn't have the footballing equivalent of communism in the 80's
> > > > > and 90's, as always some clubs were richer than others, but we did
> > > > > have a more diverse range of European finalists with the likes of
> > > > > Steaua Bucharest, Red Star Belgrade, PSV, Videoton, IFK Goteborg,
> > > > > Salzburg, Galatasaray, Dinamo Tiblisi, Carl Zeiss Jena, Standard
> > > > > Liege, Rapid Vienna, Dundee United, Aberdeen, Mechelen and Dynamo
> > > > > Kyiv all making finals.
> > > >
> > > > The fact that UEFA tournaments back then had open draws also helped the
> > > > non-fashionable teams progress in the tournaments. Two BIG teams could
> > > > draw each other in the early rounds of the European Cup and one would
> > > > get knocked out. This was what helped lead to the creation of the
> > > > Champions League as the 'big' teams didn't like the idea of a cup
> > > > tournament that they could get knocked out of early.
> > > Yeah exactly, I read years ago that it was Bayern Munich and Real Madrid getting each other in the first round of the European Cup in the late 80’s that inspired the creation of the Champions League.
> >
> > Not only that, but a pure knockout format favors lesser teams. So the present day status quo is as much a result of the group stage format as it is of financial dispairty. Without a group stage I'm sure we'd see a lot
> > more Villareal type runs.
> >
> > The problem also is, Europe has way too many countries for such a small continent (no wonder they break out in war every few decades).
> What a supremely American thing to say.

Wow, so much disdain for Americans. Though not having grown up here I am far from a "typical" American.

But let's put prejudices aside and talk facts:

N. America 9.54m sq miles - 3 countries - 3,180,000 average country size
Australasia 3.07 sq miles - 3 countries - 1,023,000 average country size
S. America 6.88 sq miles - 12 countries - 573,333 average country size
Asia land area 17.21m sq miles - 48 countries - 358,541 average country size
Africa land area 11.72m sq miles - 54 countries - 217,037 average country size
Europe 4.06m sq miles - 44 countries - 92,409 average country size
(not included: Central American and Pacific Island nations, which don't really fall into any major continent)

If we plot the above on a graph, we'll get a better visual representation of relatively just how small an average European country is.

If you agree that humans have always been fiercely territorial by nature, then it stands to reason that packing more nation-states (with distinct cultures and identities) into a smaller geographical area is a recipe for more conflict.

So I'd like to hear your view on which part of this analysis is supremely American?

On 2022-05-07 06:15, Al Kamista wrote:
> On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 7:42:36 AM UTC-4, Real Mardin wrote:
>> On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 11:06:01 AM UTC+1, Blueshirt wrote:
>>> Real Mardin wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:00:42 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 8:31:01 AM UTC-4, Blueshirt wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No it's not inconceivable. But the way the tournament has been
>>>>>> geared with all the changes over the years, it does favour the
>>>>>> top teams from the big European leagues. What with seedings and
>>>>>> 'this' team can't play 'that' team, etc...
>>>>> 5 leagues is still a lot.
>>>>
>>>> What?!? There are 55 UEFA members. Granted some are bigger than
>>>> others but if the finalists are mainly coming from the same 5 nations
>>>> that means clubs from 89% of nations are in effect shut out of the
>>>> final.
>>>>
>>>>> I am not sure what people want, the footballing equivalent of
>>>>> communism?
>>>>
>>>> We didn't have the footballing equivalent of communism in the 80's
>>>> and 90's, as always some clubs were richer than others, but we did
>>>> have a more diverse range of European finalists with the likes of
>>>> Steaua Bucharest, Red Star Belgrade, PSV, Videoton, IFK Goteborg,
>>>> Salzburg, Galatasaray, Dinamo Tiblisi, Carl Zeiss Jena, Standard
>>>> Liege, Rapid Vienna, Dundee United, Aberdeen, Mechelen and Dynamo
>>>> Kyiv all making finals.

We also had a lot fewer European countries back in the 60s, 70s, and
80s. I am assuming the Soviet league, Czechoslovakian league, Yugoslav
league, and such were stronger on average than their successors, and
provided a stiffer challenge that prepared the champions for their
forays into the European cup.

Also, politics prevented richer clubs from accessing players from behind
the iron curtain, and many leagues had limits on foreign players.

Finally, I suspect the difference between rich and poor was much smaller
back then, since a lot of that comes from TV revenue, which was nowhere
near as important in the early eighties or before. There were no live
broadcasts of bundesliga or English games back then. Only "Match of the
day" type shows. I assume this was also the case in other countries.

Finally the move to the CL format with groups and substantial bonus
points for being in the groups perpetuates inequalities- UEFA
coefficients were more volatile in the old days. Now it would take
several years of really bad performances by Spanish (eg.) teams to take
them out of the top 4.

>>> The fact that UEFA tournaments back then had open draws also helped the
>>> non-fashionable teams progress in the tournaments. Two BIG teams could
>>> draw each other in the early rounds of the European Cup and one would
>>> get knocked out. This was what helped lead to the creation of the
>>> Champions League as the 'big' teams didn't like the idea of a cup
>>> tournament that they could get knocked out of early.
>> Yeah exactly, I read years ago that it was Bayern Munich and Real Madrid getting each other in the first round of the European Cup in the late 80’s that inspired the creation of the Champions League.
>
> Not only that, but a pure knockout format favors lesser teams. So the present day status quo is as much a result of the group stage format as it is of financial dispairty. Without a group stage I'm sure we'd see a lot more Villareal type runs.

This is probably true. And with one team per country, and a random draw
to start with, you would throw up finals like LIverpool Bruges, Forest
- Malmö and a few others.
>
> The problem also is, Europe has way too many countries for such a small continent (no wonder they break out in war every few decades).

On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 11:50:46 AM UTC-4, Al Kamista wrote:
> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 10:27:40 AM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:
> > On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 2:15:09 PM UTC+2, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 7:42:36 AM UTC-4, Real Mardin wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 11:06:01 AM UTC+1, Blueshirt wrote:
> > > > > Real Mardin wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:00:42 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 8:31:01 AM UTC-4, Blueshirt wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > No it's not inconceivable. But the way the tournament has been
> > > > > > > > geared with all the changes over the years, it does favour the
> > > > > > > > top teams from the big European leagues. What with seedings and
> > > > > > > > 'this' team can't play 'that' team, etc...
> > > > > > > 5 leagues is still a lot.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What?!? There are 55 UEFA members. Granted some are bigger than
> > > > > > others but if the finalists are mainly coming from the same 5 nations
> > > > > > that means clubs from 89% of nations are in effect shut out of the
> > > > > > final.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am not sure what people want, the footballing equivalent of
> > > > > > > communism?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > We didn't have the footballing equivalent of communism in the 80's
> > > > > > and 90's, as always some clubs were richer than others, but we did
> > > > > > have a more diverse range of European finalists with the likes of
> > > > > > Steaua Bucharest, Red Star Belgrade, PSV, Videoton, IFK Goteborg,
> > > > > > Salzburg, Galatasaray, Dinamo Tiblisi, Carl Zeiss Jena, Standard
> > > > > > Liege, Rapid Vienna, Dundee United, Aberdeen, Mechelen and Dynamo
> > > > > > Kyiv all making finals.
> > > > >
> > > > > The fact that UEFA tournaments back then had open draws also helped the
> > > > > non-fashionable teams progress in the tournaments. Two BIG teams could
> > > > > draw each other in the early rounds of the European Cup and one would
> > > > > get knocked out. This was what helped lead to the creation of the
> > > > > Champions League as the 'big' teams didn't like the idea of a cup
> > > > > tournament that they could get knocked out of early.
> > > > Yeah exactly, I read years ago that it was Bayern Munich and Real Madrid getting each other in the first round of the European Cup in the late 80’s that inspired the creation of the Champions League.
> > >
> > > Not only that, but a pure knockout format favors lesser teams. So the present day status quo is as much a result of the group stage format as it is of financial dispairty. Without a group stage I'm sure we'd see a lot
> > > more Villareal type runs.
> > >
> > > The problem also is, Europe has way too many countries for such a small continent (no wonder they break out in war every few decades).
> > What a supremely American thing to say.
> Wow, so much disdain for Americans. Though not having grown up here I am far from a "typical" American.
>
> But let's put prejudices aside and talk facts:
>
> N. America 9.54m sq miles - 3 countries - 3,180,000 average country size
> Australasia 3.07 sq miles - 3 countries - 1,023,000 average country size
> S. America 6.88 sq miles - 12 countries - 573,333 average country size
> Asia land area 17.21m sq miles - 48 countries - 358,541 average country size
> Africa land area 11.72m sq miles - 54 countries - 217,037 average country size
> Europe 4.06m sq miles - 44 countries - 92,409 average country size
> (not included: Central American and Pacific Island nations, which don't really fall into any major continent)
>
> If we plot the above on a graph, we'll get a better visual representation of relatively just how small an average European country is.
>
> If you agree that humans have always been fiercely territorial by nature, then it stands to reason that packing more nation-states (with distinct cultures and identities) into a smaller geographical area is a recipe for more conflict.
>
> So I'd like to hear your view on which part of this analysis is supremely American?

I was just watching a documentary which mentioned this very problem in Europe. So I dug up this post.

I'd like to hear your counter-argument here Werner, rather than just making a condescending remark and running away.

On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 4:46:28 PM UTC+2, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 11:50:46 AM UTC-4, Al Kamista wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 10:27:40 AM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:
> > > On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 2:15:09 PM UTC+2, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 7:42:36 AM UTC-4, Real Mardin wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 11:06:01 AM UTC+1, Blueshirt wrote:
> > > > > > Real Mardin wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:00:42 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 8:31:01 AM UTC-4, Blueshirt wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > No it's not inconceivable. But the way the tournament has been
> > > > > > > > > geared with all the changes over the years, it does favour the
> > > > > > > > > top teams from the big European leagues. What with seedings and
> > > > > > > > > 'this' team can't play 'that' team, etc...
> > > > > > > > 5 leagues is still a lot.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What?!? There are 55 UEFA members. Granted some are bigger than
> > > > > > > others but if the finalists are mainly coming from the same 5 nations
> > > > > > > that means clubs from 89% of nations are in effect shut out of the
> > > > > > > final.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I am not sure what people want, the footballing equivalent of
> > > > > > > > communism?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > We didn't have the footballing equivalent of communism in the 80's
> > > > > > > and 90's, as always some clubs were richer than others, but we did
> > > > > > > have a more diverse range of European finalists with the likes of
> > > > > > > Steaua Bucharest, Red Star Belgrade, PSV, Videoton, IFK Goteborg,
> > > > > > > Salzburg, Galatasaray, Dinamo Tiblisi, Carl Zeiss Jena, Standard
> > > > > > > Liege, Rapid Vienna, Dundee United, Aberdeen, Mechelen and Dynamo
> > > > > > > Kyiv all making finals.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The fact that UEFA tournaments back then had open draws also helped the
> > > > > > non-fashionable teams progress in the tournaments. Two BIG teams could
> > > > > > draw each other in the early rounds of the European Cup and one would
> > > > > > get knocked out. This was what helped lead to the creation of the
> > > > > > Champions League as the 'big' teams didn't like the idea of a cup
> > > > > > tournament that they could get knocked out of early.
> > > > > Yeah exactly, I read years ago that it was Bayern Munich and Real Madrid getting each other in the first round of the European Cup in the late 80’s that inspired the creation of the Champions League.
> > > >
> > > > Not only that, but a pure knockout format favors lesser teams. So the present day status quo is as much a result of the group stage format as it is of financial dispairty. Without a group stage I'm sure we'd see a lot
> > > > more Villareal type runs.
> > > >
> > > > The problem also is, Europe has way too many countries for such a small continent (no wonder they break out in war every few decades).
> > > What a supremely American thing to say.
> > Wow, so much disdain for Americans. Though not having grown up here I am far from a "typical" American.
> >
> > But let's put prejudices aside and talk facts:
> >
> > N. America 9.54m sq miles - 3 countries - 3,180,000 average country size
> > Australasia 3.07 sq miles - 3 countries - 1,023,000 average country size
> > S. America 6.88 sq miles - 12 countries - 573,333 average country size
> > Asia land area 17.21m sq miles - 48 countries - 358,541 average country size
> > Africa land area 11.72m sq miles - 54 countries - 217,037 average country size
> > Europe 4.06m sq miles - 44 countries - 92,409 average country size
> > (not included: Central American and Pacific Island nations, which don't really fall into any major continent)
> >
> > If we plot the above on a graph, we'll get a better visual representation of relatively just how small an average European country is.
> >
> > If you agree that humans have always been fiercely territorial by nature, then it stands to reason that packing more nation-states (with distinct cultures and identities) into a smaller geographical area is a recipe for
> > more conflict.
> >
> > So I'd like to hear your view on which part of this analysis is supremely American?
> I was just watching a documentary which mentioned this very problem in Europe. So I dug up this post.
>
> I'd like to hear your counter-argument here Werner, rather than just making a condescending remark and running away.

Beg your pardon? It's interesting that calling something 'supremely American' appears to be considered as an insult by you.

I simply wrote it was 'a supremely American thing to say' because I've only ever seen this point argued by Americans.
'Small is Beautiful' is much more of a European concept.

Ciao,
Werner

Le 20/08/2022, Al Kamista a supposé :

> I was just watching a documentary which mentioned this very
> problem in Europe.

Where is the problem ?

--
Ixion

On Monday, August 22, 2022 at 5:11:27 PM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:
> On Saturday, August 20, 2022 at 4:46:28 PM UTC+2, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 11:50:46 AM UTC-4, Al Kamista wrote:
> > > On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 10:27:40 AM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 2:15:09 PM UTC+2, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 7:42:36 AM UTC-4, Real Mardin wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, May 7, 2022 at 11:06:01 AM UTC+1, Blueshirt wrote:
> > > > > > > Real Mardin wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 2:00:42 PM UTC+1, alka...@hotmail..com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Friday, May 6, 2022 at 8:31:01 AM UTC-4, Blueshirt wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > No it's not inconceivable. But the way the tournament has been
> > > > > > > > > > geared with all the changes over the years, it does favour the
> > > > > > > > > > top teams from the big European leagues. What with seedings and
> > > > > > > > > > 'this' team can't play 'that' team, etc...
> > > > > > > > > 5 leagues is still a lot.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > What?!? There are 55 UEFA members. Granted some are bigger than
> > > > > > > > others but if the finalists are mainly coming from the same 5 nations
> > > > > > > > that means clubs from 89% of nations are in effect shut out of the
> > > > > > > > final.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I am not sure what people want, the footballing equivalent of
> > > > > > > > > communism?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > We didn't have the footballing equivalent of communism in the 80's
> > > > > > > > and 90's, as always some clubs were richer than others, but we did
> > > > > > > > have a more diverse range of European finalists with the likes of
> > > > > > > > Steaua Bucharest, Red Star Belgrade, PSV, Videoton, IFK Goteborg,
> > > > > > > > Salzburg, Galatasaray, Dinamo Tiblisi, Carl Zeiss Jena, Standard
> > > > > > > > Liege, Rapid Vienna, Dundee United, Aberdeen, Mechelen and Dynamo
> > > > > > > > Kyiv all making finals.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The fact that UEFA tournaments back then had open draws also helped the
> > > > > > > non-fashionable teams progress in the tournaments. Two BIG teams could
> > > > > > > draw each other in the early rounds of the European Cup and one would
> > > > > > > get knocked out. This was what helped lead to the creation of the
> > > > > > > Champions League as the 'big' teams didn't like the idea of a cup
> > > > > > > tournament that they could get knocked out of early.
> > > > > > Yeah exactly, I read years ago that it was Bayern Munich and Real Madrid getting each other in the first round of the European Cup in the late 80’s that inspired the creation of the Champions League.
> > > > >
> > > > > Not only that, but a pure knockout format favors lesser teams. So the present day status quo is as much a result of the group stage format as it is of financial dispairty. Without a group stage I'm sure we'd see a lot
> > > > > more Villareal type runs.
> > > > >
> > > > > The problem also is, Europe has way too many countries for such a small continent (no wonder they break out in war every few decades).
> > > > What a supremely American thing to say.
> > > Wow, so much disdain for Americans. Though not having grown up here I am far from a "typical" American.
> > >
> > > But let's put prejudices aside and talk facts:
> > >
> > > N. America 9.54m sq miles - 3 countries - 3,180,000 average country size
> > > Australasia 3.07 sq miles - 3 countries - 1,023,000 average country size
> > > S. America 6.88 sq miles - 12 countries - 573,333 average country size
> > > Asia land area 17.21m sq miles - 48 countries - 358,541 average country size
> > > Africa land area 11.72m sq miles - 54 countries - 217,037 average country size
> > > Europe 4.06m sq miles - 44 countries - 92,409 average country size
> > > (not included: Central American and Pacific Island nations, which don't really fall into any major continent)
> > >
> > > If we plot the above on a graph, we'll get a better visual representation of relatively just how small an average European country is.
> > >
> > > If you agree that humans have always been fiercely territorial by nature, then it stands to reason that packing more nation-states (with distinct cultures and identities) into a smaller geographical area is a recipe for
> > > more conflict.
> > >
> > > So I'd like to hear your view on which part of this analysis is supremely American?
> > I was just watching a documentary which mentioned this very problem in Europe. So I dug up this post.
> >
> > I'd like to hear your counter-argument here Werner, rather than just making a condescending remark and running away.
> Beg your pardon? It's interesting that calling something 'supremely American' appears to be considered as an insult by you.
>
> I simply wrote it was 'a supremely American thing to say' because I've only ever seen this point argued by Americans.
> 'Small is Beautiful' is much more of a European concept.

Sorry for the tardy response here.

It's not an insult, but it's quite patronizing.

Being small isn't a problem in itself. Packing a lot of small countries into a small continent (relatively speaking) is what I am suggesting the problem is. Why do you think Europe has hosted more inter-continental wars than any other continent in the last 100 or so years? (not counting proxy wars such as colonial or cold war wars, which have also mostly been perpetrated by Europeans or Americans).

I recommend you watch Exterminate All the Brutes, a docu-series by HBO. It's quite eye-opening in terms of the unparalleled destruction Europe was wrought upon the non-European world (and upon itself, within the context of the present discussion).