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sport / rec.sport.soccer / Re: The new CL thing...

SubjectAuthor
* The new CL thing...Bruce Scott
+- Re: The new CL thing...Al Kamista
`* Re: The new CL thing...Jesus Petry
 +* Re: The new CL thing...Al Kamista
 |`* Re: The new CL thing...HASM
 | +- Re: The new CL thing...Werner Pichler
 | `* Re: The new CL thing...Blueshirt
 |  `* Re: The new CL thing...Al Kamista
 |   `- Re: The new CL thing...Blueshirt
 `* Re: The new CL thing...MH
  `* Re: The new CL thing...Bruce Scott
   `* Re: The new CL thing...MH
    `* Re: The new CL thing...Bruce Scott
     +- Re: The new CL thing...Futbolmetrix
     `- Re: The new CL thing...MH

1
The new CL thing...

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From: bds...@lapCU-0123.aug.ipp.mpg.de (Bruce Scott)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer
Subject: The new CL thing...
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 12:42:05 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Bruce Scott - Thu, 12 May 2022 12:42 UTC

Lots of articles on the format, but the real stunner is the group
stage, which is a league but _not_ a round-robin. So there are plenty
of possibilities for unfair draws. I didn't see any information on
scheduling or any pot divisions between big and small teams like in
the CL. Anyone have anything on that?

--
ciao, Bruce

Re: The new CL thing...

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Subject: Re: The new CL thing...
From: alkami...@hotmail.com (Al Kamista)
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 by: Al Kamista - Thu, 12 May 2022 12:57 UTC

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 8:42:07 AM UTC-4, Bruce Scott wrote:
> Lots of articles on the format, but the real stunner is the group
> stage, which is a league but _not_ a round-robin. So there are plenty
> of possibilities for unfair draws. I didn't see any information on
> scheduling or any pot divisions between big and small teams like in
> the CL. Anyone have anything on that?
>
> --
> ciao, Bruce

https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=new+champions+league+format

:-)

Re: The new CL thing...

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Subject: Re: The new CL thing...
From: jesus.pe...@gmail.com (Jesus Petry)
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 by: Jesus Petry - Thu, 12 May 2022 14:28 UTC

Em quinta-feira, 12 de maio de 2022 às 09:42:07 UTC-3, Bruce Scott escreveu:
> Lots of articles on the format, but the real stunner is the group
> stage, which is a league but _not_ a round-robin. So there are plenty
> of possibilities for unfair draws. I didn't see any information on
> scheduling or any pot divisions between big and small teams like in
> the CL. Anyone have anything on that?

Swiss system, widely used in chess tournaments, and once (somewhat) in a World Cup (which one? Of course, Switzerland 1954!).
It makes for significant games in every round, and the strong teams tend to play each other more often than in some random setup.

Tchau!
Jesus Petry

Re: The new CL thing...

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Subject: Re: The new CL thing...
From: alkami...@hotmail.com (Al Kamista)
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 by: Al Kamista - Thu, 12 May 2022 15:25 UTC

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 10:28:48 AM UTC-4, jesus...@gmail.com wrote:
> Em quinta-feira, 12 de maio de 2022 às 09:42:07 UTC-3, Bruce Scott escreveu:
> > Lots of articles on the format, but the real stunner is the group
> > stage, which is a league but _not_ a round-robin. So there are plenty
> > of possibilities for unfair draws. I didn't see any information on
> > scheduling or any pot divisions between big and small teams like in
> > the CL. Anyone have anything on that?
> Swiss system, widely used in chess tournaments, and once (somewhat) in a World Cup (which one? Of course, Switzerland 1954!).
> It makes for significant games in every round, and the strong teams tend to play each other more often than in some random setup.
>
> Tchau!
> Jesus Petry

So basically in a 36 team league, each team gets 8 matches (4H & 4A) based on some unknown seeding system. The top 8 go straight to the R16, while the 9th-24th play a 2-legged playoff to determine the other 8 for the R16. R16 onwards follows the same format as today.

Sounds more interesting than the current group stage, which is pretty much a snoozefest.

Re: The new CL thing...

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 by: HASM - Thu, 12 May 2022 15:52 UTC

> So basically in a 36 team league, each team gets 8 matches (4H & 4A)
> based on some unknown seeding system.

Swiss pairings are OK (I used to play in chess tournaments), but is FIFA
going to publish the rules ahead of time or are we in for a few surprises?

-- HASM

Re: The new CL thing...

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Subject: Re: The new CL thing...
From: wpich...@gmail.com (Werner Pichler)
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 by: Werner Pichler - Thu, 12 May 2022 17:07 UTC

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 5:52:10 PM UTC+2, HASM wrote:
> > So basically in a 36 team league, each team gets 8 matches (4H & 4A)
> > based on some unknown seeding system.
>
> Swiss pairings are OK (I used to play in chess tournaments), but is FIFA
> going to publish the rules ahead of time or are we in for a few surprises?

It can't be a true Swiss system as the complete schedule will be known before the
tournament starts. It's probably going to be a bit like the UEFA Cup was between
2004-05 and 2008-09.

Also, I was against giving 2 extra CL wildcard spots to 'historically successful' teams,
but the new solution is even worse. Would have been better to just gift them officially
to England and Spain and be done with it.

I've written before that I'm not against these changes in principle, but the details
that have now come out are sobering, to say the least. Catering almost exclusively
to the Big 5 (France will in all likelihood get two extra CL spots, that must be that
famous anti-French UEFA bias ixion always talks about).

The one thing I'll agree with is that it's a good idea to let the Europa League use the
same system as the CL with 8 games, while the Conference League will remain as it
was with 6 matches. This should redress some of the coefficient imbalance between
these competitions.

There have been hints that UEFA are favouring this model because it's 'scalable'. I wouldn't
be surprised to see a 40-team Champions League from 2027 onwards.

Ciao,
Werner


> -- HASM

Re: The new CL thing...

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 by: Blueshirt - Thu, 12 May 2022 21:22 UTC

HASM wrote:
>
> Swiss pairings are OK (I used to play in chess tournaments), but is
> FIFA going to publish the rules ahead of time or are we in for a
> few surprises?

Yeah, I'm also familiar with the Swiss-system tournament format
through Chess, but this will be UEFA's 'version' of it. So expect
something completely different!!!

Call my cynical, but I still think whatever way UEFA proceed it'll
still end up with the same BIG clubs in the latter stages... I'm not
saying cold/hot balls at the draw, but UEFA love their 'seedings' and
all that sort of thing, so to get the big clubs to approve of the new
format there will have to be something 'in it' for those clubs.

Re: The new CL thing...

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 by: MH - Thu, 12 May 2022 22:55 UTC

On 2022-05-12 08:28, Jesus Petry wrote:
> Em quinta-feira, 12 de maio de 2022 às 09:42:07 UTC-3, Bruce Scott escreveu:
>> Lots of articles on the format, but the real stunner is the group
>> stage, which is a league but _not_ a round-robin. So there are plenty
>> of possibilities for unfair draws. I didn't see any information on
>> scheduling or any pot divisions between big and small teams like in
>> the CL. Anyone have anything on that?
>

If it were a real Swiss system, I could get behind it a lot more. But
it will be more like the qualifying round of the Concacaf nations league
was - predetermined fixtures based on seeding into pots based on
coefficients. Still might be very interesting, and the fact that 2/3
of the teams will still be in it after the group stage probably irons
out any big unfairnesses in the predetermined scheduling.

> Swiss system, widely used in chess tournaments, and once (somewhat) in a World Cup (which one? Of course, Switzerland 1954!).
> It makes for significant games in every round, and the strong teams tend to play each other more often than in some random setup.

Each team in the top seeded pot will only play two games against other
teams in that pot; that would usually be higher, I think, with a true
swiss.

>
> Tchau!
> Jesus Petry

Re: The new CL thing...

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Subject: Re: The new CL thing...
From: alkami...@hotmail.com (Al Kamista)
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 by: Al Kamista - Fri, 13 May 2022 12:22 UTC

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 5:24:06 PM UTC-4, Blueshirt wrote:
> HASM wrote:
> >
> > Swiss pairings are OK (I used to play in chess tournaments), but is
> > FIFA going to publish the rules ahead of time or are we in for a
> > few surprises?
> Yeah, I'm also familiar with the Swiss-system tournament format
> through Chess, but this will be UEFA's 'version' of it. So expect
> something completely different!!!
>
> Call my cynical, but I still think whatever way UEFA proceed it'll
> still end up with the same BIG clubs in the latter stages.

The big clubs will end up in the latter stages simply because they are stronger, rather than any specific format.

What I like the most about the revamp is that CL losers don't get a second bite of the apple in the EL. To me that really compromised the integrity of the EL. It also wouldn't give the big teams (think Man U last season and Barca this season) a BS excuse to re-brand their season as a success by winning the EL, when in truth they had failed miserably by not even getting out of the group stage in the CL.

Re: The new CL thing...

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From: bluesh...@indigo.news (Blueshirt)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer
Subject: Re: The new CL thing...
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 17:20:05 +0100
Organization: XanaNews
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 by: Blueshirt - Fri, 13 May 2022 16:20 UTC

Al Kamista wrote:

> On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 5:24:06 PM UTC-4, Blueshirt wrote:
> > HASM wrote:
> > >
> > > Swiss pairings are OK (I used to play in chess tournaments),
> > > but is FIFA going to publish the rules ahead of time or are we
> > > in for a few surprises?
> > Yeah, I'm also familiar with the Swiss-system tournament format
> > through Chess, but this will be UEFA's 'version' of it. So expect
> > something completely different!!!
> >
> > Call my cynical, but I still think whatever way UEFA proceed
> > it'll still end up with the same BIG clubs in the latter stages.
>
> The big clubs will end up in the latter stages simply because they
> are stronger, rather than any specific format.

I'd prefer a more 'open' draw where BIG teams can knock out BIG teams
early on... I'm sure the new UEFA format will be 'managed' to ensure
that that sort of malarkey doesn't go on.

> What I like the most about the revamp is that CL losers don't get a
> second bite of the apple in the EL. To me that really compromised
> the integrity of the EL. It also wouldn't give the big teams (think
> Man U last season and Barca this season) a BS excuse to re-brand
> their season as a success by winning the EL, when in truth they had
> failed miserably by not even getting out of the group stage in the
> CL.

Yeah, once you lose in one European tournament you should be out of
European competition full stop, no going in to another UEFA
tournament.

Re: The new CL thing...

<slrnt8cnom.rg5.bds@lapCU-0123.aug.ipp.mpg.de>

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From: bds...@lapCU-0123.aug.ipp.mpg.de (Bruce Scott)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer
Subject: Re: The new CL thing...
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 15:15:34 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Bruce Scott - Thu, 19 May 2022 15:15 UTC

On 2022-05-12, MH <MHnospam@ucalgary.ca> wrote:
> If it were a real Swiss system, I could get behind it a lot more. But
> it will be more like the qualifying round of the Concacaf nations league
> was - predetermined fixtures based on seeding into pots based on
> coefficients. Still might be very interesting, and the fact that 2/3
> of the teams will still be in it after the group stage probably irons
> out any big unfairnesses in the predetermined scheduling.

I agree, it was never going to be the system we use in Chess. Nobody
could do the necessary travel planning with that. It's not the same
thing as a chess tournament where everybody is all staying in the same
hotel or just nearby.

With 2/3 still in it, a bit like ice hockey tournaments. We know even
the USA will be in the KO rounds unless there's a massive f-up (like
almost losing to Austria).

> Each team in the top seeded pot will only play two games against other
> teams in that pot; that would usually be higher, I think, with a true
> swiss.

A little seeding with this setup is better than no seeding, where dumb
luck could provide for some very uneven match comparisons.

--
ciao, Bruce

Re: The new CL thing...

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From: MHnos...@ucalgary.ca (MH)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer
Subject: Re: The new CL thing...
Date: Thu, 19 May 2022 11:18:45 -0600
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 by: MH - Thu, 19 May 2022 17:18 UTC

On 2022-05-19 09:15, Bruce Scott wrote:
> On 2022-05-12, MH <MHnospam@ucalgary.ca> wrote:
>> If it were a real Swiss system, I could get behind it a lot more. But
>> it will be more like the qualifying round of the Concacaf nations league
>> was - predetermined fixtures based on seeding into pots based on
>> coefficients. Still might be very interesting, and the fact that 2/3
>> of the teams will still be in it after the group stage probably irons
>> out any big unfairnesses in the predetermined scheduling.
>
> I agree, it was never going to be the system we use in Chess. Nobody
> could do the necessary travel planning with that. It's not the same
> thing as a chess tournament where everybody is all staying in the same
> hotel or just nearby.

I always wonder about this. In the old days of the CL, CWC and UEFA cup,
the next opponent was never determined until after the previous round.
How would a true Swiss system differ from this? I guess there was more
space between rounds in those days, but still.

Similarly, in playoffs in North American sports, they always manage to
do things without a fixed grid - opponents are determined after the
previous round, based on re-seeding.

>
> With 2/3 still in it, a bit like ice hockey tournaments. We know even
> the USA will be in the KO rounds unless there's a massive f-up (like
> almost losing to Austria).
>
>> Each team in the top seeded pot will only play two games against other
>> teams in that pot; that would usually be higher, I think, with a true
>> swiss.
>
> A little seeding with this setup is better than no seeding, where dumb
> luck could provide for some very uneven match comparisons.
>

Re: The new CL thing...

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From: bds...@lapCU-0123.aug.ipp.mpg.de (Bruce Scott)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.soccer
Subject: Re: The new CL thing...
Date: Fri, 20 May 2022 17:32:49 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Bruce Scott - Fri, 20 May 2022 17:32 UTC

On 2022-05-19, MH <MHnospam@ucalgary.ca> wrote:
> [...]
> I always wonder about this. In the old days of the CL, CWC and UEFA cup,
> the next opponent was never determined until after the previous round.
> How would a true Swiss system differ from this? I guess there was more
> space between rounds in those days, but still.

In UEFA, no comparison now to then, in terms of business and the
professional level. Travel entourages were pretty minimal, and
hotels in cities were not booked out weeks in advance (no internet,
much less international travel in general). I'm thinking of the
1970s...

> Similarly, in playoffs in North American sports, they always manage to
> do things without a fixed grid - opponents are determined after the
> previous round, based on re-seeding.

Really? I thought the brackets were set beforehand (surely they were
in baseball and the NFL) in the old days. I thought they still were
today, also in the NBA.

--
ciao, Bruce

Re: The new CL thing...

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 by: Futbolmetrix - Fri, 20 May 2022 18:03 UTC

On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 1:32:51 PM UTC-4, Bruce Scott wrote:

> Really? I thought the brackets were set beforehand (surely they were
> in baseball and the NFL) in the old days. I thought they still were
> today, also in the NBA.

I think in the NBA the brackets are set in advance (of course there is still a lot of uncertainty as to the timing of matches), while in the NFL I believe that they adjust dynamically so that the top seeded team remaining in the draw meets the lowest seeded team.

Speaking of American sports, and going back on topic, to me UEFA's so-called "Swiss System" looks a lot more like the unbalanced schedule that you have in the NFL or in college sports. The main difference is that the NFL/college sports actually promote local rivalries (because you always play teams from your division twice), while UEFA seems intent on doing exactly the opposite (keep teams from the same league separate in the groups).

Re: The new CL thing...

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Subject: Re: The new CL thing...
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 by: MH - Fri, 20 May 2022 21:02 UTC

On 2022-05-20 11:32, Bruce Scott wrote:
> On 2022-05-19, MH <MHnospam@ucalgary.ca> wrote:
>> [...]
>> I always wonder about this. In the old days of the CL, CWC and UEFA cup,
>> the next opponent was never determined until after the previous round.
>> How would a true Swiss system differ from this? I guess there was more
>> space between rounds in those days, but still.
>
> In UEFA, no comparison now to then, in terms of business and the
> professional level. Travel entourages were pretty minimal, and
> hotels in cities were not booked out weeks in advance (no internet,
> much less international travel in general). I'm thinking of the
> 1970s...
>
>> Similarly, in playoffs in North American sports, they always manage to
>> do things without a fixed grid - opponents are determined after the
>> previous round, based on re-seeding.
>
> Really? I thought the brackets were set beforehand (surely they were
> in baseball and the NFL) in the old days. I thought they still were
> today, also in the NBA.
>
I can only speak to the NHL really. The brackets nowadays are fixed in
the sense of divisions/conferences, but not in terms of seeding and home
advantage. So you don't know who (of two possible opponents for each
round) you are playing next and where the games are going to be (unless
you are top seed for that stage). Eg. Calgary or Edmonton could each,
if they win the current series, play Colorado or St. Louis next.
Colorado would have the first two games at home in all cases. Calgary
would have the first two games at home vs. St. Louis, whereas St. Louis
would have the first two games if it is Edmonton. I always thought it
was the same in NBA too, but I could be wrong. It is the same in CFL
for the playoffs, though, except that the venue for the grey cup is
determined well in advance.

MLS also re-seeds after each round for the playoffs in terms of who gets
home advantage.

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