On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 1:59:22 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Jul 2023 12:24:13 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >A few years ago my boss bought a used smart car. One day shortly after he bought it he called to say he would be late because the smart car died (still under warranty since he bought it from a mercedes dealership). Later that day after he made it in, we were in a meeting and he got a call from the dealership. He listened to the mechanic for a moment then muted the phone, looked at us and said "He just told me they think it's an electrical problem. YA THINK?"
>
> Factory car dealers do not have mechanics that can troubleshoot
> today's sophisticated vehicles whether EV or ICE. Instead, a
> proprietary ODB2 analyzer is used. Instead of a stand-alone analyzer
> run by the mechanic, the analysis is run by a computer located at the
> factory or at a service center via the internet. All the mechanic
> does is press the "run" button, follow the on-screen instructions and
> collect the printed output. The few that I've seen produce a list of
> likely culprits, possibly in order of reported failure frequency. The
> mechanic is then expected to go down the list and sequentially(?)
> replace everything on the list until the failure magically disappears.
> That might seem inefficient and expensive but it's easier and faster
> than properly training mechanics.
>
> Some Mercedes-Benz vehicles have wireless diagnostic interfaces, where
> the mechanic doesn't need to lift the hood. That should be called
> "white glove testing".
>
> It would seem that the Smart Car doesn't use remote diagnostics (yet)
> and still uses expensive dedicated analyzers:
> <https://fq101.co.uk/how-to-guides/fortwo-451/electrical/422-on-board-diagnostics>
> "...the ultimate tool (that smart dealers use) is a STAR machine which
> can read all smart-specific codes as well. However, these are far out
> of the price range of individual owners. With generic code readers you
> can do basic functions such as reading fault codes and clearing them.
> However, to fix faults with the airbag system and ESP controller you
> will need access to a STAR."
> --

I think you missed the point - my boss was commenting that his electric car wouldn't start, and they told him it was an electrical problem...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpaOy8b8X6A

On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 11:44:34 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I think you missed the point - my boss was commenting that his electric car wouldn't start, and they told him it was an electrical problem...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpaOy8b8X6A

I didn't miss the point. I just thought it might be of interest to
add how today's automotive diagnostics are performed. Stating the
obvious is not very useful in troubleshooting, but is a common enough
habit among the clueless. Here's the aviation version:
<https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/c71q3/funny_airplane_repair_logs/>
Plenty more under "aviation humor" and "automotive humor". In 1994, I
even wrote my own, some of which allegedly appeared in the UK version
of Wired Magazine:
<https://members.cruzio.com/~jeffl/nooze/support.txt>

If I was in the automotive repair business, and someone complained
that his electric car wouldn't start, I would ask questions like "what
happens when you turned the key or pushed the start button?" In other
words, I would need more information about the symptoms. What the
mechanic did was ignore the first vital step of interrogating the
customer for sufficient information. Instead, he jumped to the second
step, which was to assign the blame. Lacking a suitable culprit,
blaming the vehicle electrical system was sufficient. That buys the
mechanic sufficient time to do a proper diagnosis. Incidentally,
According to my Subaru mechanic, the most common "can't start" culprit
is a dead battery in the wireless key fob. Most wireless key fobs
have a backup method of starting the car. Most customers don't know
how to use it.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 07:27:19 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>No worries, Liebermann will continue teaching others why Jews were stuck in ovens during that unfortunate time in German history. He is the "degreed" electronics engineer that is so repulsive he couldn't get a job as anything other than a technician changing out ink jet printer cartridges for people of such low IQ that they couldn't figure that out for themselves.

What did I write that offended you sufficiently to have you loose your
composure and escalate the discussion with imaginative personal
insults? I want to know, not so I might apologize for having somehow
offended you, but so I can do it again until your head explodes. You
are truly a disgusting and worthless person. May you rot in the hell
of your own creation.

07/22/2022
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/rruYWggsZ2s/m/4N9vIJzcBgAJ>
"Now Jeff shows exactly why the NAZI' and even the normal Germans were
do willing to kill every Jew in sight."

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 3:08:53 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 11:44:34 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I think you missed the point - my boss was commenting that his electric car wouldn't start, and they told him it was an electrical problem...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpaOy8b8X6A
> I didn't miss the point. I just thought it might be of interest to
> add how today's automotive diagnostics are performed. Stating the
> obvious is not very useful in troubleshooting, but is a common enough
> habit among the clueless. Here's the aviation version:
> <https://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/c71q3/funny_airplane_repair_logs/>
> Plenty more under "aviation humor" and "automotive humor". In 1994, I
> even wrote my own, some of which allegedly appeared in the UK version
> of Wired Magazine:
> <https://members.cruzio.com/~jeffl/nooze/support.txt>
>
> If I was in the automotive repair business, and someone complained
> that his electric car wouldn't start, I would ask questions like "what
> happens when you turned the key or pushed the start button?" In other
> words, I would need more information about the symptoms. What the
> mechanic did was ignore the first vital step of interrogating the
> customer for sufficient information. Instead, he jumped to the second
> step, which was to assign the blame. Lacking a suitable culprit,
> blaming the vehicle electrical system was sufficient. That buys the
> mechanic sufficient time to do a proper diagnosis. Incidentally,
> According to my Subaru mechanic, the most common "can't start" culprit
> is a dead battery in the wireless key fob. Most wireless key fobs
> have a backup method of starting the car. Most customers don't know
> how to use it.

True enough, I'll just point out that they had the car for several hours - giving time to perform some at least rudimentary diagnosis - before coming back with 'your electric car won't start, we think it's an electrical problem' - hey, at least they didn't tell him it was a fouled fuel injector.

> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 3:25:36 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 07:27:19 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >No worries, Liebermann will continue teaching others why Jews were stuck in ovens during that unfortunate time in German history. He is the "degreed" electronics engineer that is so repulsive he couldn't get a job as anything other than a technician changing out ink jet printer cartridges for people of such low IQ that they couldn't figure that out for themselves.
> What did I write that offended you sufficiently to have you loose your
> composure and escalate the discussion with imaginative personal
> insults? I want to know, not so I might apologize for having somehow
> offended you, but so I can do it again until your head explodes. You
> are truly a disgusting and worthless person. May you rot in the hell
> of your own creation.
>
> 07/22/2022
> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/rruYWggsZ2s/m/4N9vIJzcBgAJ>
> "Now Jeff shows exactly why the NAZI' and even the normal Germans were
> do willing to kill every Jew in sight."
> --

Yet he and his irish troll friend accuse us of being the rascists....

On 7/10/2023 2:39 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 10:27:21 AM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 4:39:40 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>> Am 07.07.2023 um 16:52 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
>>>> On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 10:22:55 +0200, Rolf Mantel <ne...@hartig-mantel.de>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Right, minimalist like those small EV, cheap and capable of carrying 4
>>>>> people (my mum + 4 children was a common load in those days).
>>>>> Safety was non-existent: once my brother an me were having an 'argument'
>>>>> in the car, my brother pushed me a bit while my mum was negotiating a
>>>>> sharp bend, the door opened and I just fell out of the car. Luckily, my
>>>>> mum was going very slow due to icy conditions, so I was shocked but not
>>>>> hurt.
>>>>> Rolf
>>>>
>>>> You were lucky. Perhaps the passengers should have been wearing
>>>> bicycle helmets.
>>>>
>>>> No seat belts? Shoulder strap? Out of curiosity, did the EV's have
>>>> air bags? Both are required on all cars in the USA.
>>>
>>> In Germany, front seat belts were compulsory to be fitted in new cars
>>> from 1974 but , rear seat belts from 1979 so I speculate that the car I
>>> fell out of in ca 1975 probably had front seat belts.
>>>
>>> Usage of rear seatbelts prevented three kids sharing a rear bench
>>> designed for two adults, so even once the other car was fitted with rear
>>> seat belts, we would often not use them to be able to pack more children
>>> onto the rear bench.
>>>
>>> Usage of front seat belts if fitted was compulsory from 1976 (but a fine
>>> was only introduced in 1984), usage of rear seat belts for adults in
>>> 1984 and for children with special child seates in 1992 (i.e. not
>>> relevant during my childhood).
>>>
>>> Rolf
>> No worries, Liebermann will continue teaching others why Jews were stuck in ovens during that unfortunate time in German history
>
> Wow...kunich is one really disgusting piece of garbage.

Yes, that was low even for Kunich. Slimy, gross and obnoxious.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 7/10/2023 3:48 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> I'll just point out that they had the car for several hours - giving time to perform some at least rudimentary diagnosis - before coming back with 'your electric car won't start, we think it's an electrical problem' - hey, at least they didn't tell him it was a fouled fuel injector.

When I was writing the check for our EV, the check-taker-guy was trying
to push a fancier warranty. "With this one, all maintenance is covered
for five years!!"

Me: "What maintenance?"

Him: "Well, oil changes and filters, just to start!"

Me: "It's electric."

Him: "Oh."

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 6:12:54 PM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/10/2023 2:39 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 10:27:21 AM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 4:39:40 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> >>> Am 07.07.2023 um 16:52 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
> >>>> On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 10:22:55 +0200, Rolf Mantel <ne...@hartig-mantel.de>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Right, minimalist like those small EV, cheap and capable of carrying 4
> >>>>> people (my mum + 4 children was a common load in those days).
> >>>>> Safety was non-existent: once my brother an me were having an 'argument'
> >>>>> in the car, my brother pushed me a bit while my mum was negotiating a
> >>>>> sharp bend, the door opened and I just fell out of the car. Luckily, my
> >>>>> mum was going very slow due to icy conditions, so I was shocked but not
> >>>>> hurt.
> >>>>> Rolf
> >>>>
> >>>> You were lucky. Perhaps the passengers should have been wearing
> >>>> bicycle helmets.
> >>>>
> >>>> No seat belts? Shoulder strap? Out of curiosity, did the EV's have
> >>>> air bags? Both are required on all cars in the USA.
> >>>
> >>> In Germany, front seat belts were compulsory to be fitted in new cars
> >>> from 1974 but , rear seat belts from 1979 so I speculate that the car I
> >>> fell out of in ca 1975 probably had front seat belts.
> >>>
> >>> Usage of rear seatbelts prevented three kids sharing a rear bench
> >>> designed for two adults, so even once the other car was fitted with rear
> >>> seat belts, we would often not use them to be able to pack more children
> >>> onto the rear bench.
> >>>
> >>> Usage of front seat belts if fitted was compulsory from 1976 (but a fine
> >>> was only introduced in 1984), usage of rear seat belts for adults in
> >>> 1984 and for children with special child seates in 1992 (i.e. not
> >>> relevant during my childhood).
> >>>
> >>> Rolf
> >> No worries, Liebermann will continue teaching others why Jews were stuck in ovens during that unfortunate time in German history
> >
> > Wow...kunich is one really disgusting piece of garbage.
> Yes, that was low even for Kunich. Slimy, gross and obnoxious.
>

No, I think it was pretty typical.

On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 12:25:27 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 07:27:19 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>No worries, Liebermann will continue teaching others why Jews were stuck in ovens during that unfortunate time in German history. He is the "degreed" electronics engineer that is so repulsive he couldn't get a job as anything other than a technician changing out ink jet printer cartridges for people of such low IQ that they couldn't figure that out for themselves.
>
>What did I write that offended you sufficiently to have you loose your
>composure and escalate the discussion with imaginative personal
>insults? I want to know, not so I might apologize for having somehow
>offended you, but so I can do it again until your head explodes. You
>are truly a disgusting and worthless person. May you rot in the hell
>of your own creation.
>
>07/22/2022
><https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/rruYWggsZ2s/m/4N9vIJzcBgAJ>
>"Now Jeff shows exactly why the NAZI' and even the normal Germans were
>do willing to kill every Jew in sight."

Gee, everybody except Tom is a "no good". One can only speculate on
why he posts here with all those he labels as "bad" instead of
trundling off and hanging with the "good guys".

But then, one can only gaze with awe at someone that cultivates under
his nose what grows wild on the south end of a goat heading north.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 11:44:34 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 1:59:22?AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Thu, 6 Jul 2023 12:24:13 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >A few years ago my boss bought a used smart car. One day shortly after he bought it he called to say he would be late because the smart car died (still under warranty since he bought it from a mercedes dealership). Later that day after he made it in, we were in a meeting and he got a call from the dealership. He listened to the mechanic for a moment then muted the phone, looked at us and said "He just told me they think it's an electrical problem. YA THINK?"
>>
>> Factory car dealers do not have mechanics that can troubleshoot
>> today's sophisticated vehicles whether EV or ICE. Instead, a
>> proprietary ODB2 analyzer is used. Instead of a stand-alone analyzer
>> run by the mechanic, the analysis is run by a computer located at the
>> factory or at a service center via the internet. All the mechanic
>> does is press the "run" button, follow the on-screen instructions and
>> collect the printed output. The few that I've seen produce a list of
>> likely culprits, possibly in order of reported failure frequency. The
>> mechanic is then expected to go down the list and sequentially(?)
>> replace everything on the list until the failure magically disappears.
>> That might seem inefficient and expensive but it's easier and faster
>> than properly training mechanics.
>>
>> Some Mercedes-Benz vehicles have wireless diagnostic interfaces, where
>> the mechanic doesn't need to lift the hood. That should be called
>> "white glove testing".
>>
>> It would seem that the Smart Car doesn't use remote diagnostics (yet)
>> and still uses expensive dedicated analyzers:
>> <https://fq101.co.uk/how-to-guides/fortwo-451/electrical/422-on-board-diagnostics>
>> "...the ultimate tool (that smart dealers use) is a STAR machine which
>> can read all smart-specific codes as well. However, these are far out
>> of the price range of individual owners. With generic code readers you
>> can do basic functions such as reading fault codes and clearing them.
>> However, to fix faults with the airbag system and ESP controller you
>> will need access to a STAR."
>> --
>
>I think you missed the point - my boss was commenting that his electric car wouldn't start, and they told him it was an electrical problem...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpaOy8b8X6A

Well :-) It probably was :-)

But, had they actually looked at the car? Quite often the fact that
you've delivered your car to the service shop doesn't mean that
someone has worked on it.... "We'll get to it after lunch".
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 11:39:25 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 10:27:21?AM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 4:39:40?AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> > Am 07.07.2023 um 16:52 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
>> > > On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 10:22:55 +0200, Rolf Mantel <ne...@hartig-mantel.de>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Right, minimalist like those small EV, cheap and capable of carrying 4
>> > >> people (my mum + 4 children was a common load in those days).
>> > >> Safety was non-existent: once my brother an me were having an 'argument'
>> > >> in the car, my brother pushed me a bit while my mum was negotiating a
>> > >> sharp bend, the door opened and I just fell out of the car. Luckily, my
>> > >> mum was going very slow due to icy conditions, so I was shocked but not
>> > >> hurt.
>> > >> Rolf
>> > >
>> > > You were lucky. Perhaps the passengers should have been wearing
>> > > bicycle helmets.
>> > >
>> > > No seat belts? Shoulder strap? Out of curiosity, did the EV's have
>> > > air bags? Both are required on all cars in the USA.
>> >
>> > In Germany, front seat belts were compulsory to be fitted in new cars
>> > from 1974 but , rear seat belts from 1979 so I speculate that the car I
>> > fell out of in ca 1975 probably had front seat belts.
>> >
>> > Usage of rear seatbelts prevented three kids sharing a rear bench
>> > designed for two adults, so even once the other car was fitted with rear
>> > seat belts, we would often not use them to be able to pack more children
>> > onto the rear bench.
>> >
>> > Usage of front seat belts if fitted was compulsory from 1976 (but a fine
>> > was only introduced in 1984), usage of rear seat belts for adults in
>> > 1984 and for children with special child seates in 1992 (i.e. not
>> > relevant during my childhood).
>> >
>> > Rolf
>> No worries, Liebermann will continue teaching others why Jews were stuck in ovens during that unfortunate time in German history
>
>Wow...kunich is one really disgusting piece of garbage.
>

Well, he seems to be adhering to the theory espoused by Dr. Gobbels,
"tell a big enough lie and tell it often enough and it becomes the
truth".

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 07:20:34 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 6:40:00?PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/9/2023 7:49 PM, John B. wrote:
>> > On Sun, 9 Jul 2023 07:39:33 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 7:17:53?AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>> On 7/8/2023 5:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >>>> On Saturday, July 8, 2023 at 2:33:58 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> >>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> writes:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Saturday, July 8, 2023 at 5:36:40 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On 7/7/2023 8:14 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 16:54:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
>> >>>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 4:06:26?PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> >>>>>>>>>> That said, gasoline vehicle fires are formidable and, given
>> >>>>>>>>>> the huge volume of such vehicles, frequent (although maybe
>> >>>>>>>>>> not statistically significant to 'all ICE vehicles')
>> >>>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>> Yesterday for example:
>> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/video/fire-on-cargo-ship-in-newark-still-burning-after-over-40-hours/
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Apparently you have a subscription to that CBS channel. So I get a blank,
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Close, but not quite correct. The cbsnews.com link is for "Live TV".
>> >>>>>>>> It only shows something when there is something to stream. When a
>> >>>>>>>> specific stream is done, you get the frame of the CBS New York video
>> >>>>>>>> page, but with a black (not blank) screen.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> You can see what is currently streaming at:
>> >>>>>>>> <https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/live/>
>> >>>>>>>> However, to view past streams (including the cargo ship fire), a login
>> >>>>>>>> is required. You can use your Facebook, Google, Twitter or Yahoo
>> >>>>>>>> login. Or, you can create a new CBS account. I don't think there's a
>> >>>>>>>> paid subscription involved but I'm too lazy to check.
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Sorry, try this link:
>> >>>>>>> https://www.pennlive.com/nation-world/2023/07/fatal-fire-on-nj-cargo-ship-still-burning-after-35-hours.html
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Radio this morning said the two firefighters who died were
>> >>>>>>> inside the ship where their fire hoses have a different
>> >>>>>>> connector than the ship's European format water connectors.
>> >>>>>>> Ouch.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> If 15% of all new vehicle sales are EV's wouldn't you think that there
>> >>>>>> is a chance that it started from an EV? Gasoline fires are not very
>> >>>>>> hot and they are quite easily quenched with water. And usually ships
>> >>>>> Gasoline fires are hot. Do not try to put out a gasoline fire with
>> >>>>> water, you'll just spread it around and cause it to burn faster.
>> >>>>> Professional firefighters may spray water on a gasoline fire, but they
>> >>>>> have hoses that take two guys to hold down.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> If you're using a fire extinguisher, you need class B.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Incidentally, if you ever get the chance to train on actual fires with
>> >>>>> actual fire extinguishers, take it.
>> >>>>>> carrying anything with combustible materials have fire systems on
>> >>>>>> board. The damned ship is SITTING IN AN OCEAN so it is easy to do. So
>> >>>>>> whatever started and maintains the fire is likely to be extremely hot.
>> >>>>> --
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I don't know where you get the idea that cars tied down in a freighter with a fire suppression system would have a lot of gasoline around. When they are shipping cars do you have the idea that they have full gas tanks instead of a gallon or two to get them on and off of the transporter and into the ship?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I was in the Air Force, we had some fire suppression training since a B52 had a thousand gallons or so of jet fuel in close proximity to open flames of jet engines. B47's had solid fuel rocket assisted take off. And because all of these aircraft were inflight refuellable the fuel lines ran all over the aircraft to the many fuel tanks.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Water was used. Spray nozzles were preferred but water alone is enough. The idea is to dilute the gasoline until it is no longer combustible. In a six block area here we have 7 gas stations and the ONLY fire suppression systems they have are turning the valves from the underground tanks to the pumps off. Does that sound like gas is that dangerous?
>> >>>>
>> >>> Autos are top loaded, secured with nylon straps. Halon
>> >>> systems are below decks and were not activated (heard a
>> >>> crewman's interview yesterday on WPRO).
>> >>>
>> >>> Incidentally a full gas tank is relatively inert. A nearly
>> >>> empty gas tank is a bomb (see videos of exploding cars on
>> >>> deck from yesterday).
>>
>> >>
>> >> Radey's point was that gasoline is dangerous. He is completely correct. But there is not much gasoline available in these vehicles. The fire had to be started and sustained in some manner for things like gas tanks to be overheated to the point of explosion. And a full tank would be more dangerous than a almost empty one because it would simply expand and break the tank open and feed the fire.
>> >
>> > Err.... TOMMY! Fuel tanks are "vented" in other word a "hole"
>> > connecting the inside to the outside.
>> >
>> > So expanding gas" simply vents to the outside and doesn't break the
>> > tank open.
>> >
>> > I know it may come as a shock but a nearly empty fuel tank is far more
>> > likely to "rupture" as the fuel vapors mixing with air results in a
>> > rather explosive media which can burst the tank if ignited.
>> >
>> Right. Fuel system venting works well for rates of expansion
>> such as pulling into a 50F heated garage after driving at
>> -20F. Gasoline tank ignition expands at several magnitudes
>> greater rate = shrapnel.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
>You couldn't possibly be expecting Slocomb to learn anything. He has shown all of the classic symptoms of Dementia from the belief that his job in the Air Force was important to the after retirement job in a company that serviced military bases overseas. I am told that he claimed that I couldn't recognize an Asian from anyone else. Before long like Krygowski he will be claiming that he didn't say that despite the only difference being an adverb.

Nope, wrong again. I worked for PA&E on an air base for only a few
months and then went South and worked in the Oil Industry for about 30
years.

As for my work, the last ten years I was in the Air Force? Well being
a qualified Machinist and a certified welder - Steel, Stainless and
Aluminum - certainly wasn't a handicap :-)

As for claiming that you wouldn't recognize an Asian? Where did that
come from? After all you live in California with some 6 million
Asians.

You know Tommy if you are going to tell lies it helps considerably if
you actually know what you are talking about. It gives your lies a
certain amount of veracity if you get even one fact right from time to
time.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Am 10.07.2023 um 18:49 schrieb Tom Kunich:
> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 9:35:43 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 7/10/2023 9:31 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 5:39:48 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 7/10/2023 7:02 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 13:39:35 +0200, Rolf Mantel
>>>>> <ne...@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Am 07.07.2023 um 16:52 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 10:22:55 +0200, Rolf Mantel <ne...@hartig-mantel.de>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Right, minimalist like those small EV, cheap and capable of carrying 4
>>>>>>>> people (my mum + 4 children was a common load in those days).
>>>>>>>> Safety was non-existent: once my brother an me were having an 'argument'
>>>>>>>> in the car, my brother pushed me a bit while my mum was negotiating a
>>>>>>>> sharp bend, the door opened and I just fell out of the car. Luckily, my
>>>>>>>> mum was going very slow due to icy conditions, so I was shocked but not
>>>>>>>> hurt.
>>>>>>>> Rolf
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You were lucky. Perhaps the passengers should have been wearing
>>>>>>> bicycle helmets.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No seat belts? Shoulder strap? Out of curiosity, did the EV's have
>>>>>>> air bags? Both are required on all cars in the USA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In Germany, front seat belts were compulsory to be fitted in new cars
>>>>> >from 1974 but , rear seat belts from 1979 so I speculate that the car I
>>>>>> fell out of in ca 1975 probably had front seat belts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Usage of rear seatbelts prevented three kids sharing a rear bench
>>>>>> designed for two adults, so even once the other car was fitted with rear
>>>>>> seat belts, we would often not use them to be able to pack more children
>>>>>> onto the rear bench.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Usage of front seat belts if fitted was compulsory from 1976 (but a fine
>>>>>> was only introduced in 1984), usage of rear seat belts for adults in
>>>>>> 1984 and for children with special child seates in 1992 (i.e. not
>>>>>> relevant during my childhood).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rolf
>>>>>
>>>>> There's far too little common sense applied to the laws regarding
>>>>> safety on the public roads. For instance, I can, and have been
>>>>> ticketed for not wearing a seat belt, yet I can, and have ridden a
>>>>> number of high-speed motorcycles where a simple fender-bender type
>>>>> collision can be life threatening.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also note that most states have no minimum age limit for motorcycle
>>>>> passengers.
>>>>>
>>>> A good idea, especially after 50+ years, ought to be
>>>> generally embraced. But The Powers That Be gave up that
>>>> argument with compulsion, which naturally engenders defiance.
>>>>
>>>> Hence my fleet of mid-1960s autos.
>>
>>>
>>> I cannot understand why people pay very high excess prices for foreign cars that break down easily and often. There is a local mechanic I go to that smogs my car. He always has a long line of foreign cars (not Japanese or Korean) that require major work done on them. He has a thriving business.
>>>
>> Or they could be waiting for hot cams, longer drive gears,
>> oversize rotors with multiple puck calipers, race chips or
>> other gofast upgrades.
>
> They are buying go-fast European cars already and I don't remember common performance increasing parts for a Mercedes sedan or a BMW SUV.

The typical go-fast booster is chip tuning these days: increase engine
parameters for max power and reduced lifespan (typically voiding the
warranty).

On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 9:47:15 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 07:20:34 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 6:40:00?PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 7/9/2023 7:49 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> > On Sun, 9 Jul 2023 07:39:33 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On Sunday, July 9, 2023 at 7:17:53?AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >>> On 7/8/2023 5:06 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> >>>> On Saturday, July 8, 2023 at 2:33:58 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >> >>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> writes:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>> On Saturday, July 8, 2023 at 5:36:40 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >>>>>>> On 7/7/2023 8:14 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>> On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 16:54:11 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> >> >>>>>>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, July 7, 2023 at 4:06:26?PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> >>>>>>>>>> That said, gasoline vehicle fires are formidable and, given
> >> >>>>>>>>>> the huge volume of such vehicles, frequent (although maybe
> >> >>>>>>>>>> not statistically significant to 'all ICE vehicles')
> >> >>>>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>>> Yesterday for example:
> >> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/video/fire-on-cargo-ship-in-newark-still-burning-after-over-40-hours/
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>> Apparently you have a subscription to that CBS channel. So I get a blank,
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> Close, but not quite correct. The cbsnews.com link is for "Live TV".
> >> >>>>>>>> It only shows something when there is something to stream. When a
> >> >>>>>>>> specific stream is done, you get the frame of the CBS New York video
> >> >>>>>>>> page, but with a black (not blank) screen.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>> You can see what is currently streaming at:
> >> >>>>>>>> <https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/live/>
> >> >>>>>>>> However, to view past streams (including the cargo ship fire), a login
> >> >>>>>>>> is required. You can use your Facebook, Google, Twitter or Yahoo
> >> >>>>>>>> login. Or, you can create a new CBS account. I don't think there's a
> >> >>>>>>>> paid subscription involved but I'm too lazy to check.
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Sorry, try this link:
> >> >>>>>>> https://www.pennlive.com/nation-world/2023/07/fatal-fire-on-nj-cargo-ship-still-burning-after-35-hours.html
> >> >>>>>>>
> >> >>>>>>> Radio this morning said the two firefighters who died were
> >> >>>>>>> inside the ship where their fire hoses have a different
> >> >>>>>>> connector than the ship's European format water connectors.
> >> >>>>>>> Ouch.
> >> >>>>>>
> >> >>>>>> If 15% of all new vehicle sales are EV's wouldn't you think that there
> >> >>>>>> is a chance that it started from an EV? Gasoline fires are not very
> >> >>>>>> hot and they are quite easily quenched with water. And usually ships
> >> >>>>> Gasoline fires are hot. Do not try to put out a gasoline fire with
> >> >>>>> water, you'll just spread it around and cause it to burn faster.
> >> >>>>> Professional firefighters may spray water on a gasoline fire, but they
> >> >>>>> have hoses that take two guys to hold down.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> If you're using a fire extinguisher, you need class B.
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Incidentally, if you ever get the chance to train on actual fires with
> >> >>>>> actual fire extinguishers, take it.
> >> >>>>>> carrying anything with combustible materials have fire systems on
> >> >>>>>> board. The damned ship is SITTING IN AN OCEAN so it is easy to do. So
> >> >>>>>> whatever started and maintains the fire is likely to be extremely hot.
> >> >>>>> --
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I don't know where you get the idea that cars tied down in a freighter with a fire suppression system would have a lot of gasoline around. When they are shipping cars do you have the idea that they have full gas tanks instead of a gallon or two to get them on and off of the transporter and into the ship?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> I was in the Air Force, we had some fire suppression training since a B52 had a thousand gallons or so of jet fuel in close proximity to open flames of jet engines. B47's had solid fuel rocket assisted take off. And because all of these aircraft were inflight refuellable the fuel lines ran all over the aircraft to the many fuel tanks.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> Water was used. Spray nozzles were preferred but water alone is enough. The idea is to dilute the gasoline until it is no longer combustible.. In a six block area here we have 7 gas stations and the ONLY fire suppression systems they have are turning the valves from the underground tanks to the pumps off. Does that sound like gas is that dangerous?
> >> >>>>
> >> >>> Autos are top loaded, secured with nylon straps. Halon
> >> >>> systems are below decks and were not activated (heard a
> >> >>> crewman's interview yesterday on WPRO).
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Incidentally a full gas tank is relatively inert. A nearly
> >> >>> empty gas tank is a bomb (see videos of exploding cars on
> >> >>> deck from yesterday).
> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Radey's point was that gasoline is dangerous. He is completely correct. But there is not much gasoline available in these vehicles. The fire had to be started and sustained in some manner for things like gas tanks to be overheated to the point of explosion. And a full tank would be more dangerous than a almost empty one because it would simply expand and break the tank open and feed the fire.
> >> >
> >> > Err.... TOMMY! Fuel tanks are "vented" in other word a "hole"
> >> > connecting the inside to the outside.
> >> >
> >> > So expanding gas" simply vents to the outside and doesn't break the
> >> > tank open.
> >> >
> >> > I know it may come as a shock but a nearly empty fuel tank is far more
> >> > likely to "rupture" as the fuel vapors mixing with air results in a
> >> > rather explosive media which can burst the tank if ignited.
> >> >
> >> Right. Fuel system venting works well for rates of expansion
> >> such as pulling into a 50F heated garage after driving at
> >> -20F. Gasoline tank ignition expands at several magnitudes
> >> greater rate = shrapnel.
> >> --
> >> Andrew Muzi
> >> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >
> >You couldn't possibly be expecting Slocomb to learn anything. He has shown all of the classic symptoms of Dementia from the belief that his job in the Air Force was important to the after retirement job in a company that serviced military bases overseas. I am told that he claimed that I couldn't recognize an Asian from anyone else. Before long like Krygowski he will be claiming that he didn't say that despite the only difference being an adverb.
> Nope, wrong again. I worked for PA&E on an air base for only a few
> months and then went South and worked in the Oil Industry for about 30
> years.
>
> As for my work, the last ten years I was in the Air Force? Well being
> a qualified Machinist and a certified welder - Steel, Stainless and
> Aluminum - certainly wasn't a handicap :-)
>
> As for claiming that you wouldn't recognize an Asian? Where did that
> come from?

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 7/10/2023 3:48 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> I'll just point out that they had the car for several hours - giving
>> time to perform some at least rudimentary diagnosis - before coming back
>> with 'your electric car won't start, we think it's an electrical
>> problem' - hey, at least they didn't tell him it was a fouled fuel injector.
>
> When I was writing the check for our EV, the check-taker-guy was trying
> to push a fancier warranty. "With this one, all maintenance is covered
> for five years!!"
>
> Me: "What maintenance?"
>
> Him: "Well, oil changes and filters, just to start!"
>
> Me: "It's electric."
>
> Him: "Oh."
>

Will still need brakes and bearing and so on, brake’s definitely like to be
used.

Was a guy on YouTube who ended up with various braking problems as he just
used regenerative braking and eventually battery failure as he did
intergalactic mileage, but he has ADHD so took it to the more extreme end.

Ie wasn’t a normal use of the car.

Roger Merriman

On 7/11/2023 7:31 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 7/10/2023 3:48 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> I'll just point out that they had the car for several hours - giving
>>> time to perform some at least rudimentary diagnosis - before coming back
>>> with 'your electric car won't start, we think it's an electrical
>>> problem' - hey, at least they didn't tell him it was a fouled fuel injector.
>>
>> When I was writing the check for our EV, the check-taker-guy was trying
>> to push a fancier warranty. "With this one, all maintenance is covered
>> for five years!!"
>>
>> Me: "What maintenance?"
>>
>> Him: "Well, oil changes and filters, just to start!"
>>
>> Me: "It's electric."
>>
>> Him: "Oh."
>>
>
> Will still need brakes and bearing and so on, brake’s definitely like to be
> used.

People are reporting 100,000 mile brake pad life with EVs.
https://freedomgeneral.com/blog/how-to-maintain-electric-car/

My friction brakes get very, very little use. I can generally hear the
scraping when they engage.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 7/11/2023 7:31 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 7/10/2023 3:48 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> I'll just point out that they had the car for several hours - giving
>>>> time to perform some at least rudimentary diagnosis - before coming back
>>>> with 'your electric car won't start, we think it's an electrical
>>>> problem' - hey, at least they didn't tell him it was a fouled fuel injector.
>>>
>>> When I was writing the check for our EV, the check-taker-guy was trying
>>> to push a fancier warranty. "With this one, all maintenance is covered
>>> for five years!!"
>>>
>>> Me: "What maintenance?"
>>>
>>> Him: "Well, oil changes and filters, just to start!"
>>>
>>> Me: "It's electric."
>>>
>>> Him: "Oh."
>>>
>>
>> Will still need brakes and bearing and so on, brake’s definitely like to be
>> used.
>
> People are reporting 100,000 mile brake pad life with EVs.
> https://freedomgeneral.com/blog/how-to-maintain-electric-car/
>
> My friction brakes get very, very little use. I can generally hear the
> scraping when they engage.
>
Indeed that was what I read/folks said ie slightly ironically if brakes
aren’t used can seize.

Ie with all mechanical parts need to be used occasionally.

Roger Merriman

On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 1:02:47 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 10.07.2023 um 18:49 schrieb Tom Kunich:
> > On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 9:35:43 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 7/10/2023 9:31 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 5:39:48 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 7/10/2023 7:02 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >>>>> On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 13:39:35 +0200, Rolf Mantel
> >>>>> <ne...@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Am 07.07.2023 um 16:52 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
> >>>>>>> On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 10:22:55 +0200, Rolf Mantel <ne...@hartig-mantel.de>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Right, minimalist like those small EV, cheap and capable of carrying 4
> >>>>>>>> people (my mum + 4 children was a common load in those days).
> >>>>>>>> Safety was non-existent: once my brother an me were having an 'argument'
> >>>>>>>> in the car, my brother pushed me a bit while my mum was negotiating a
> >>>>>>>> sharp bend, the door opened and I just fell out of the car. Luckily, my
> >>>>>>>> mum was going very slow due to icy conditions, so I was shocked but not
> >>>>>>>> hurt.
> >>>>>>>> Rolf
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> You were lucky. Perhaps the passengers should have been wearing
> >>>>>>> bicycle helmets.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> No seat belts? Shoulder strap? Out of curiosity, did the EV's have
> >>>>>>> air bags? Both are required on all cars in the USA.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In Germany, front seat belts were compulsory to be fitted in new cars
> >>>>> >from 1974 but , rear seat belts from 1979 so I speculate that the car I
> >>>>>> fell out of in ca 1975 probably had front seat belts.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Usage of rear seatbelts prevented three kids sharing a rear bench
> >>>>>> designed for two adults, so even once the other car was fitted with rear
> >>>>>> seat belts, we would often not use them to be able to pack more children
> >>>>>> onto the rear bench.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Usage of front seat belts if fitted was compulsory from 1976 (but a fine
> >>>>>> was only introduced in 1984), usage of rear seat belts for adults in
> >>>>>> 1984 and for children with special child seates in 1992 (i.e. not
> >>>>>> relevant during my childhood).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Rolf
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There's far too little common sense applied to the laws regarding
> >>>>> safety on the public roads. For instance, I can, and have been
> >>>>> ticketed for not wearing a seat belt, yet I can, and have ridden a
> >>>>> number of high-speed motorcycles where a simple fender-bender type
> >>>>> collision can be life threatening.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I also note that most states have no minimum age limit for motorcycle
> >>>>> passengers.
> >>>>>
> >>>> A good idea, especially after 50+ years, ought to be
> >>>> generally embraced. But The Powers That Be gave up that
> >>>> argument with compulsion, which naturally engenders defiance.
> >>>>
> >>>> Hence my fleet of mid-1960s autos.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> I cannot understand why people pay very high excess prices for foreign cars that break down easily and often. There is a local mechanic I go to that smogs my car. He always has a long line of foreign cars (not Japanese or Korean) that require major work done on them. He has a thriving business..
> >>>
> >> Or they could be waiting for hot cams, longer drive gears,
> >> oversize rotors with multiple puck calipers, race chips or
> >> other gofast upgrades.
> >
> > They are buying go-fast European cars already and I don't remember common performance increasing parts for a Mercedes sedan or a BMW SUV.
> The typical go-fast booster is chip tuning these days: increase engine
> parameters for max power and reduced lifespan (typically voiding the
> warranty).

Invariably "go fast" or "speed" parts aren't. Factories tune engines for best all around performance, fuel economy, etc. Speed parts trade a slight increase in speed for poorer mileage and increased component wear. Increasing fuel injected and lead spark wears the hell out of an engine and produces a tiny increase in power.

On 7/11/2023 3:20 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 1:02:47 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 10.07.2023 um 18:49 schrieb Tom Kunich:
>>> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 9:35:43 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 7/10/2023 9:31 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 5:39:48 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/10/2023 7:02 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 13:39:35 +0200, Rolf Mantel
>>>>>>> <ne...@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Am 07.07.2023 um 16:52 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 10:22:55 +0200, Rolf Mantel <ne...@hartig-mantel.de>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Right, minimalist like those small EV, cheap and capable of carrying 4
>>>>>>>>>> people (my mum + 4 children was a common load in those days).
>>>>>>>>>> Safety was non-existent: once my brother an me were having an 'argument'
>>>>>>>>>> in the car, my brother pushed me a bit while my mum was negotiating a
>>>>>>>>>> sharp bend, the door opened and I just fell out of the car. Luckily, my
>>>>>>>>>> mum was going very slow due to icy conditions, so I was shocked but not
>>>>>>>>>> hurt.
>>>>>>>>>> Rolf
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You were lucky. Perhaps the passengers should have been wearing
>>>>>>>>> bicycle helmets.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No seat belts? Shoulder strap? Out of curiosity, did the EV's have
>>>>>>>>> air bags? Both are required on all cars in the USA.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In Germany, front seat belts were compulsory to be fitted in new cars
>>>>>>> >from 1974 but , rear seat belts from 1979 so I speculate that the car I
>>>>>>>> fell out of in ca 1975 probably had front seat belts.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Usage of rear seatbelts prevented three kids sharing a rear bench
>>>>>>>> designed for two adults, so even once the other car was fitted with rear
>>>>>>>> seat belts, we would often not use them to be able to pack more children
>>>>>>>> onto the rear bench.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Usage of front seat belts if fitted was compulsory from 1976 (but a fine
>>>>>>>> was only introduced in 1984), usage of rear seat belts for adults in
>>>>>>>> 1984 and for children with special child seates in 1992 (i.e. not
>>>>>>>> relevant during my childhood).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rolf
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's far too little common sense applied to the laws regarding
>>>>>>> safety on the public roads. For instance, I can, and have been
>>>>>>> ticketed for not wearing a seat belt, yet I can, and have ridden a
>>>>>>> number of high-speed motorcycles where a simple fender-bender type
>>>>>>> collision can be life threatening.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I also note that most states have no minimum age limit for motorcycle
>>>>>>> passengers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> A good idea, especially after 50+ years, ought to be
>>>>>> generally embraced. But The Powers That Be gave up that
>>>>>> argument with compulsion, which naturally engenders defiance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hence my fleet of mid-1960s autos.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I cannot understand why people pay very high excess prices for foreign cars that break down easily and often. There is a local mechanic I go to that smogs my car. He always has a long line of foreign cars (not Japanese or Korean) that require major work done on them. He has a thriving business.
>>>>>
>>>> Or they could be waiting for hot cams, longer drive gears,
>>>> oversize rotors with multiple puck calipers, race chips or
>>>> other gofast upgrades.
>>>
>>> They are buying go-fast European cars already and I don't remember common performance increasing parts for a Mercedes sedan or a BMW SUV.
>> The typical go-fast booster is chip tuning these days: increase engine
>> parameters for max power and reduced lifespan (typically voiding the
>> warranty).
>
> Invariably "go fast" or "speed" parts aren't. Factories tune engines for best all around performance, fuel economy, etc. Speed parts trade a slight increase in speed for poorer mileage and increased component wear. Increasing fuel injected and lead spark wears the hell out of an engine and produces a tiny increase in power.
>

You are unfamiliar with street racing.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 7/11/2023 12:26 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 7/11/2023 7:31 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>
>> People are reporting 100,000 mile brake pad life with EVs.
>> https://freedomgeneral.com/blog/how-to-maintain-electric-car/
>>
>> My friction brakes get very, very little use. I can generally hear the
>> scraping when they engage.
>>
> Indeed that was what I read/folks said ie slightly ironically if brakes
> aren’t used can seize.
>
> Ie with all mechanical parts need to be used occasionally.

I've not come across reports of such failures on the relevant EV forums.

I hear the brakes scraping when I first apply them backing out of the
garage into the "turnaround" that's part of our drive. I suspect that
will be adequate to keep the relevant bits moving.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 5:24:06 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 7/11/2023 3:20 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 11, 2023 at 1:02:47 AM UTC-7, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> >> Am 10.07.2023 um 18:49 schrieb Tom Kunich:
> >>> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 9:35:43 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 7/10/2023 9:31 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> On Monday, July 10, 2023 at 5:39:48 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>> On 7/10/2023 7:02 AM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Mon, 10 Jul 2023 13:39:35 +0200, Rolf Mantel
> >>>>>>> <ne...@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Am 07.07.2023 um 16:52 schrieb Jeff Liebermann:
> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, 7 Jul 2023 10:22:55 +0200, Rolf Mantel <ne...@hartig-mantel.de>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Right, minimalist like those small EV, cheap and capable of carrying 4
> >>>>>>>>>> people (my mum + 4 children was a common load in those days).
> >>>>>>>>>> Safety was non-existent: once my brother an me were having an 'argument'
> >>>>>>>>>> in the car, my brother pushed me a bit while my mum was negotiating a
> >>>>>>>>>> sharp bend, the door opened and I just fell out of the car. Luckily, my
> >>>>>>>>>> mum was going very slow due to icy conditions, so I was shocked but not
> >>>>>>>>>> hurt.
> >>>>>>>>>> Rolf
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> You were lucky. Perhaps the passengers should have been wearing
> >>>>>>>>> bicycle helmets.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> No seat belts? Shoulder strap? Out of curiosity, did the EV's have
> >>>>>>>>> air bags? Both are required on all cars in the USA.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> In Germany, front seat belts were compulsory to be fitted in new cars
> >>>>>>> >from 1974 but , rear seat belts from 1979 so I speculate that the car I
> >>>>>>>> fell out of in ca 1975 probably had front seat belts.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Usage of rear seatbelts prevented three kids sharing a rear bench
> >>>>>>>> designed for two adults, so even once the other car was fitted with rear
> >>>>>>>> seat belts, we would often not use them to be able to pack more children
> >>>>>>>> onto the rear bench.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Usage of front seat belts if fitted was compulsory from 1976 (but a fine
> >>>>>>>> was only introduced in 1984), usage of rear seat belts for adults in
> >>>>>>>> 1984 and for children with special child seates in 1992 (i.e. not
> >>>>>>>> relevant during my childhood).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Rolf
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There's far too little common sense applied to the laws regarding
> >>>>>>> safety on the public roads. For instance, I can, and have been
> >>>>>>> ticketed for not wearing a seat belt, yet I can, and have ridden a
> >>>>>>> number of high-speed motorcycles where a simple fender-bender type
> >>>>>>> collision can be life threatening.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I also note that most states have no minimum age limit for motorcycle
> >>>>>>> passengers.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> A good idea, especially after 50+ years, ought to be
> >>>>>> generally embraced. But The Powers That Be gave up that
> >>>>>> argument with compulsion, which naturally engenders defiance.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hence my fleet of mid-1960s autos.
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I cannot understand why people pay very high excess prices for foreign cars that break down easily and often. There is a local mechanic I go to that smogs my car. He always has a long line of foreign cars (not Japanese or Korean) that require major work done on them. He has a thriving business.
> >>>>>
> >>>> Or they could be waiting for hot cams, longer drive gears,
> >>>> oversize rotors with multiple puck calipers, race chips or
> >>>> other gofast upgrades.
> >>>
> >>> They are buying go-fast European cars already and I don't remember common performance increasing parts for a Mercedes sedan or a BMW SUV.
> >> The typical go-fast booster is chip tuning these days: increase engine
> >> parameters for max power and reduced lifespan (typically voiding the
> >> warranty).
> >
> > Invariably "go fast" or "speed" parts aren't. Factories tune engines for best all around performance, fuel economy, etc. Speed parts trade a slight increase in speed for poorer mileage and increased component wear. Increasing fuel injected and lead spark wears the hell out of an engine and produces a tiny increase in power.
> >
> You are unfamiliar with street racing.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> <www.yellowjersey.org/>
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

But I am completely familiar with timed racing and you DO have to pass smog tests now. You simply cannot believe the difference in LA before and after the smog laws.

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 7/11/2023 12:26 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 7/11/2023 7:31 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
>>>>
>>> People are reporting 100,000 mile brake pad life with EVs.
>>> https://freedomgeneral.com/blog/how-to-maintain-electric-car/
>>>
>>> My friction brakes get very, very little use. I can generally hear the
>>> scraping when they engage.
>>>
>> Indeed that was what I read/folks said ie slightly ironically if brakes
>> aren’t used can seize.
>>
>> Ie with all mechanical parts need to be used occasionally.
>
> I've not come across reports of such failures on the relevant EV forums.
>
> I hear the brakes scraping when I first apply them backing out of the
> garage into the "turnaround" that's part of our drive. I suspect that
> will be adequate to keep the relevant bits moving.
>
The guy would of been a outlier, and I guess age of cars to some extent? Ie
oldest of this generation of EV is what 10 years old? So it’s a moving
target in terms of maintenance and life span.

I’d assume maintenance will be less but lifespan less just because battery
replacement would be finically not worth it once a car is 10/20 years old.

Roger Merriman

On Thursday, July 13, 2023 at 10:49:14 AM UTC-7, Roger Meriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > On 7/11/2023 12:26 PM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>> On 7/11/2023 7:31 AM, Roger Meriman wrote:
> >>>>
> >>> People are reporting 100,000 mile brake pad life with EVs.
> >>> https://freedomgeneral.com/blog/how-to-maintain-electric-car/
> >>>
> >>> My friction brakes get very, very little use. I can generally hear the
> >>> scraping when they engage.
> >>>
> >> Indeed that was what I read/folks said ie slightly ironically if brakes
> >> aren’t used can seize.
> >>
> >> Ie with all mechanical parts need to be used occasionally.
> >
> > I've not come across reports of such failures on the relevant EV forums..
> >
> > I hear the brakes scraping when I first apply them backing out of the
> > garage into the "turnaround" that's part of our drive. I suspect that
> > will be adequate to keep the relevant bits moving.
> >
> The guy would of been a outlier, and I guess age of cars to some extent? Ie
> oldest of this generation of EV is what 10 years old? So it’s a moving
> target in terms of maintenance and life span.
>
> I’d assume maintenance will be less but lifespan less just because battery
> replacement would be finically not worth it once a car is 10/20 years old..
>
> Roger Merriman

They tell the charge on a battery by the voltage present. The batteries lose 20% or so range after just a couple of months. The computer simply says - "a full charge is this rated mileage". So you don't actually realize that your range is diminished unless you drive the car to its maximum limits. As the voltage comes down it will report to you that it needs a charge. If I had programed it, I would have included a mileage follower that would show the actual mileage full and remaining until the "needs charge" message comes on. But they don't include that because it would show the weakness of the lithium ion batteries. You pay for a 280 miles range car and in just a couple of months a full charge reports only 220 miles on a full charge. So they leave that out of the software.

On 7/14/2023 11:33 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> They tell the charge on a battery by the voltage present. The batteries lose 20% or so range after just a couple of months.

That's bullshit, Tom. I've had an EV for over 14 months now. There's
been no change in range.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Friday, July 14, 2023 at 8:55:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 7/14/2023 11:33 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >
> > They tell the charge on a battery by the voltage present. The batteries lose 20% or so range after just a couple of months.
> That's bullshit, Tom. I've had an EV for over 14 months now. There's
> been no change in range.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

So you drive the vehicle commonly out to maximum range?