On 12/23/2023 5:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>
> I spent 30, or so, years working as a "foreign worker" in countries
> that offered no "protection" to foreigners working there and a company
> could fire you any time that they wanted to and I never saw any
> oppression of the workers as U.S. Unions seem to allege.

Members of my extended family have tales of worker abuse. One member of
the extended family provided testimony to a House of Representatives
committee investigating the issue, back in the 1930s. He talked about
the damage to a family owned gas station by National Guard bullets, when
Guard members fired on workers during some labor unrest. I've read the
transcript.

Which is not to say unions are always right. I've seen abuses by both
management and by labor. But if an entire workforce gambles livelihood
by walking out on strike, it seems reasonably likely that they have
serious complaints.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 00:59:05 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 22:04:08 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>> On 12/22/2023 9:49 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 7:34:33?AM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/22/2023 10:28 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 5:58:51?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 12/21/2023 9:05 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I'm working on a bike as a sort of Christmas present. It
>>>>>>>>> needs tires, and the rider would like tires as wide as
>>>>>>>>> possible. It's a Cannondale touring bike, and like mine, the
>>>>>>>>> limiting spot for clearance is about 37mm between the
>>>>>>>>> chainstays. Rims are Sun CR18, so these are stout wheels.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> After considerable thought, I thought 32s might be a bit too
>>>>>>>>> tight. I ordered in a set of Continental Grand Prix 5000s,
>>>>>>>>> one of the few good tires I find in a 30mm width. I picked
>>>>>>>>> them up at a LBS today.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Installed, I was disappointed to see they measure just 27mm
>>>>>>>>> inflated. I guess I should have gone with 32s, which might
>>>>>>>>> have come out closer to 30mm.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's not a huge problem. These will work. But my question:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know actual installed tire width depends partly on the
>>>>>>>>> rim. I also know that many manufacturers tend to overstate
>>>>>>>>> tire width, yielding tires narrower than claimed, partly so
>>>>>>>>> they can brag about lighter weight. (If they call it a 30
>>>>>>>>> but it's only a 27, some people will say "Wow, that's light
>>>>>>>>> for a 30!")
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Is there some sort database somewhere that gives reliable
>>>>>>>>> info on actual installed width of specific tires on specific
>>>>>>>>> rims?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> None I know. An experienced mechanic can give some direction
>>>>>>>> but that's about it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>> I find it curious that Frank is a supposed engineer and cannot take
>>>>>>> into account the inner width of rims.
>>>>>> I find it curious that someone who "read out three libraries" doesn't
>>>>>> realize Frank wrote the exact opposite.
>>>>>> "I know actual installed tire width depends partly on the rim".
>>>>>> dumbass.
>>>>>
>>>>> When you're through agreeing with yourself it might possibly occur to
>>>>> you that Frank was complaining about inflated tire width while using a
>>>>> racing tire. Racing tires are constructed differently than touring tires
>>>>> but obviously you don't know that. It must be all of that racing you do
>>>>> that you can't tell the difference between a CX tire and a road tire.
>>>>>
>>>>> You're simply too stupid to talk to and I will now drop this iteration
>>>>> of your idiocy in the kill file that Liebermann claims does exist
>>>>> because he can tell by the message header.,
>>>>
>>>> ??? WTF? That 'distinction' is not an actual distinction.
>>>>
>>>> Modern race bikes ship with 700-28 clinchers which, to me,
>>>> are 'touring tires', quite unlike my 23mm tubulars.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Similar or same sized tires see also some Gravel tires, but touring tires
>>> do have more robust sidewalls and generally construction is more robust not
>>> as robust as more Gravity focused MTB tires but certainly Marathons and
>>> similar will survive glass slashing that would be career ending for a road
>>> or Gravel tire.
>>>
>>> I generally retire the Big Apples on the commute bike when it gets too many
>>> gashes, even quite large slashes doesn?t result in bulging etc.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> Are the roads really that bad where you are? Broken glass gashing
>> tires?
>>
>> Granted much of my bike riding has been in developing countries where
>> glass bottles can be resold and thus aren't usually scattered on the
>> roads. In fact the worse flat I can remember was running over a stick
>> with a bent nail in it, punched two holes in the tire... which rather
>> emphasized the foolishness in running over sticks :-) That was back in
>> the days before I carried spare inner tubes - sitting in the mud on
>> the side of the road, in the rain, trying to get a patch to stick on a
>> wet inner tube...
>>
>
>The commute or rather a short section of it, some is dropped bottles lot is
>car debris which you get on side of bypass type roads, particularly unloved
>areas such as areas north of Heathrow.
>
>Roger Merriman

I'm not familiar with England but here, if it is within the city there
will probably be road sweepers. Minimum salary, of course, and usually
women, but clean streets.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/video/street-sweeper-brings-dog-work-day-65244857
The dog isn't the usually accessory :-) The story was that she wanted
a dog and her boyfriend said "sure but you've got to take care of it",
so she took the dog to work.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Am Thu, 21 Dec 2023 22:05:14 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:

>I'm working on a bike as a sort of Christmas present. It needs tires,
>and the rider would like tires as wide as possible. It's a Cannondale
>touring bike, and like mine, the limiting spot for clearance is about
>37mm between the chainstays. Rims are Sun CR18, so these are stout wheels.
>
>After considerable thought, I thought 32s might be a bit too tight. I
>ordered in a set of Continental Grand Prix 5000s, one of the few good
>tires I find in a 30mm width. I picked them up at a LBS today.
>
>Installed, I was disappointed to see they measure just 27mm inflated. I
>guess I should have gone with 32s, which might have come out closer to
>30mm.

I mounted Continental Grand Prix 5000 S TR Folding Tires - 28-622 -
black on DT Swiss P 1800 SPLINE db 23 wheels (ERTRO 18-622), when
building our bikes in spring this year.

<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20230810/P1069511.jpg>

Inflated to just over 4 bar, the tires on both bikes are almost exactly
28 mm wide from sidewall to sidewall.

<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/reifen/gp5000_IMG_2007.jpg>
(measured today on my bike, on hear bike I got 28.05 mm)

Just another data point.

--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 12/23/2023 7:59 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Are the roads really that bad where you are? Broken glass gashing
>>> tires?...
>>
>> The commute or rather a short section of it, some is dropped bottles lot is
>> car debris which you get on side of bypass type roads, particularly unloved
>> areas such as areas north of Heathrow.
>
> I'll mention that glass shards, whether from bottles or crashed cars,
> are much less of a problem for cyclists who ride out in the lane, rather
> than at the far edge. Car tires tend to sweep pavement clean.
>

Well indeed not generally a problem on most roads and indeed is something
cycleways next to bypasses which admittedly are generally much older stuff
can suffer from.

Though that section on the commute is particularly bad for it and indeed
cars, ie the glass debris is due to crashes, not sure why really it is but
I suspect it’s the junctions which clog and then folks boot it after and
lanes merging etc.

Bar the glass it’s fairly calm on the bike, the big junctions are protected
and it’s quite a different experience.

Roger Merriman

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 12/23/2023 5:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> I spent 30, or so, years working as a "foreign worker" in countries
>> that offered no "protection" to foreigners working there and a company
>> could fire you any time that they wanted to and I never saw any
>> oppression of the workers as U.S. Unions seem to allege.
>
> Members of my extended family have tales of worker abuse. One member of
> the extended family provided testimony to a House of Representatives
> committee investigating the issue, back in the 1930s. He talked about
> the damage to a family owned gas station by National Guard bullets, when
> Guard members fired on workers during some labor unrest. I've read the
> transcript.
>
> Which is not to say unions are always right. I've seen abuses by both
> management and by labor. But if an entire workforce gambles livelihood
> by walking out on strike, it seems reasonably likely that they have
> serious complaints.
>

Pre unions some folks got paid in tokens, which they could only spend at
the company shop renting a house from the company and so on.

It’s very much the everything in moderation or at least not to the extreme
ends.

Roger Merriman

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 10:55:30 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 12/23/2023 5:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>> I spent 30, or so, years working as a "foreign worker" in countries
>>> that offered no "protection" to foreigners working there and a company
>>> could fire you any time that they wanted to and I never saw any
>>> oppression of the workers as U.S. Unions seem to allege.
>>
>> Members of my extended family have tales of worker abuse. One member of
>> the extended family provided testimony to a House of Representatives
>> committee investigating the issue, back in the 1930s. He talked about
>> the damage to a family owned gas station by National Guard bullets, when
>> Guard members fired on workers during some labor unrest. I've read the
>> transcript.
>>
>> Which is not to say unions are always right. I've seen abuses by both
>> management and by labor. But if an entire workforce gambles livelihood
>> by walking out on strike, it seems reasonably likely that they have
>> serious complaints.
>>
>
>Pre unions some folks got paid in tokens, which they could only spend at
>the company shop renting a house from the company and so on.
>
>It’s very much the everything in moderation or at least not to the extreme
>ends.
>
>Roger Merriman

"Way back when" all this is likely true but this is today. If you
don't like the job go and get another.

And yes, I've seen it happen. When I lived in the U.S. I bought a
Japanese car (don't remember the make) and was having it serviced and
got to talking with the mechanic. He'd been in some union, working for
an Aluminum Company, that took the lads out on strike. "My" mechanic
decided that this was a bunch of "s--t" and went off and got a job
with a car dealer. Told me that working "flat rate" he was making more
money then union wages and nobody was taking him out on strike.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 12/23/2023 3:48 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> I'm working on a bike as a sort of Christmas present. It needs tires,
>> and the rider would like tires as wide as possible. It's a Cannondale
>> touring bike, and like mine, the limiting spot for clearance is about
>> 37mm between the chainstays. Rims are Sun CR18, so these are stout wheels.
>>
>> After considerable thought, I thought 32s might be a bit too tight. I
>> ordered in a set of Continental Grand Prix 5000s, one of the few good
>> tires I find in a 30mm width. I picked them up at a LBS today.
>>
>> Installed, I was disappointed to see they measure just 27mm inflated. I
>> guess I should have gone with 32s, which might have come out closer to
>> 30mm.
>>
> Maybe maybe not!
>
>> It's not a huge problem. These will work. But my question:
>>
>> I know actual installed tire width depends partly on the rim. I also
>> know that many manufacturers tend to overstate tire width, yielding
>> tires narrower than claimed, partly so they can brag about lighter
>> weight. (If they call it a 30 but it's only a 27, some people will say
>> "Wow, that's light for a 30!")
>>
> I have heard it claimed but I’m not convinced by it particularly across a
> range.
>
> https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/specials/grand-prix-5000-comparison
>
> 25-32mm GP5000Seem to be broadly within range, on a similar width rim as
> well.
>
> I’ve had the reverse with some Panaracer GravelKings SK that blew up big,
> which made mud clearance more tricky.
>
>> Is there some sort database somewhere that gives reliable info on actual
>> installed width of specific tires on specific rims?
>>
> I believe SRAM did have some sort of technology but for that but couldn’t
> convince others to adopt it?
>
> Roger Merriman
>
>

Gravel King series offers a half dozen treads on the same
casing. New bikes nearby with Gravel Kings measure:
33mm actual 31mm
38mm actual 36mm
43mm actual 40mm
all with low-height treads (most popular versions) but big
knobbies and smooth are also out there.

These new bikes have regular wheels, Campagnolo Zonda,
Ambrosio WS23 and Velocity Deep-V respectively, nothing extreme.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 12/23/2023 4:04 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> On 12/22/2023 9:49 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 7:34:33 AM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>> On 12/22/2023 10:28 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 5:58:51 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/21/2023 9:05 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> I'm working on a bike as a sort of Christmas present. It
>>>>>>> needs tires, and the rider would like tires as wide as
>>>>>>> possible. It's a Cannondale touring bike, and like mine, the
>>>>>>> limiting spot for clearance is about 37mm between the
>>>>>>> chainstays. Rims are Sun CR18, so these are stout wheels.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After considerable thought, I thought 32s might be a bit too
>>>>>>> tight. I ordered in a set of Continental Grand Prix 5000s,
>>>>>>> one of the few good tires I find in a 30mm width. I picked
>>>>>>> them up at a LBS today.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Installed, I was disappointed to see they measure just 27mm
>>>>>>> inflated. I guess I should have gone with 32s, which might
>>>>>>> have come out closer to 30mm.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's not a huge problem. These will work. But my question:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I know actual installed tire width depends partly on the
>>>>>>> rim. I also know that many manufacturers tend to overstate
>>>>>>> tire width, yielding tires narrower than claimed, partly so
>>>>>>> they can brag about lighter weight. (If they call it a 30
>>>>>>> but it's only a 27, some people will say "Wow, that's light
>>>>>>> for a 30!")
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is there some sort database somewhere that gives reliable
>>>>>>> info on actual installed width of specific tires on specific
>>>>>>> rims?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> None I know. An experienced mechanic can give some direction
>>>>>> but that's about it.
>>
>>
>>>>> I find it curious that Frank is a supposed engineer and cannot take
>>>>> into account the inner width of rims.
>>>> I find it curious that someone who "read out three libraries" doesn't
>>>> realize Frank wrote the exact opposite.
>>>> "I know actual installed tire width depends partly on the rim".
>>>> dumbass.
>>>
>>> When you're through agreeing with yourself it might possibly occur to
>>> you that Frank was complaining about inflated tire width while using a
>>> racing tire. Racing tires are constructed differently than touring tires
>>> but obviously you don't know that. It must be all of that racing you do
>>> that you can't tell the difference between a CX tire and a road tire.
>>>
>>> You're simply too stupid to talk to and I will now drop this iteration
>>> of your idiocy in the kill file that Liebermann claims does exist
>>> because he can tell by the message header.,
>>
>> ??? WTF? That 'distinction' is not an actual distinction.
>>
>> Modern race bikes ship with 700-28 clinchers which, to me,
>> are 'touring tires', quite unlike my 23mm tubulars.
>>
>>
> Similar or same sized tires see also some Gravel tires, but touring tires
> do have more robust sidewalls and generally construction is more robust not
> as robust as more Gravity focused MTB tires but certainly Marathons and
> similar will survive glass slashing that would be career ending for a road
> or Gravel tire.
>
> I generally retire the Big Apples on the commute bike when it gets too many
> gashes, even quite large slashes doesn’t result in bulging etc.
>
> Roger Merriman
>

Semantically unclear to me.
Popular touring models such as Gravel King, Pasela etc have
supple thin open sidewalls with fine thread material.
Commuter tires such as Urban Max and RibMo have heavy stiff
sidewalls.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 12/23/2023 6:23 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Dec 2023 22:04:08 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> On 12/22/2023 9:49 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 7:34:33?AM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>>> On 12/22/2023 10:28 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 5:58:51?AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/21/2023 9:05 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> I'm working on a bike as a sort of Christmas present. It
>>>>>>>> needs tires, and the rider would like tires as wide as
>>>>>>>> possible. It's a Cannondale touring bike, and like mine, the
>>>>>>>> limiting spot for clearance is about 37mm between the
>>>>>>>> chainstays. Rims are Sun CR18, so these are stout wheels.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> After considerable thought, I thought 32s might be a bit too
>>>>>>>> tight. I ordered in a set of Continental Grand Prix 5000s,
>>>>>>>> one of the few good tires I find in a 30mm width. I picked
>>>>>>>> them up at a LBS today.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Installed, I was disappointed to see they measure just 27mm
>>>>>>>> inflated. I guess I should have gone with 32s, which might
>>>>>>>> have come out closer to 30mm.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's not a huge problem. These will work. But my question:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know actual installed tire width depends partly on the
>>>>>>>> rim. I also know that many manufacturers tend to overstate
>>>>>>>> tire width, yielding tires narrower than claimed, partly so
>>>>>>>> they can brag about lighter weight. (If they call it a 30
>>>>>>>> but it's only a 27, some people will say "Wow, that's light
>>>>>>>> for a 30!")
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there some sort database somewhere that gives reliable
>>>>>>>> info on actual installed width of specific tires on specific
>>>>>>>> rims?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> None I know. An experienced mechanic can give some direction
>>>>>>> but that's about it.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> I find it curious that Frank is a supposed engineer and cannot take
>>>>>> into account the inner width of rims.
>>>>> I find it curious that someone who "read out three libraries" doesn't
>>>>> realize Frank wrote the exact opposite.
>>>>> "I know actual installed tire width depends partly on the rim".
>>>>> dumbass.
>>>>
>>>> When you're through agreeing with yourself it might possibly occur to
>>>> you that Frank was complaining about inflated tire width while using a
>>>> racing tire. Racing tires are constructed differently than touring tires
>>>> but obviously you don't know that. It must be all of that racing you do
>>>> that you can't tell the difference between a CX tire and a road tire.
>>>>
>>>> You're simply too stupid to talk to and I will now drop this iteration
>>>> of your idiocy in the kill file that Liebermann claims does exist
>>>> because he can tell by the message header.,
>>>
>>> ??? WTF? That 'distinction' is not an actual distinction.
>>>
>>> Modern race bikes ship with 700-28 clinchers which, to me,
>>> are 'touring tires', quite unlike my 23mm tubulars.
>>>
>>>
>> Similar or same sized tires see also some Gravel tires, but touring tires
>> do have more robust sidewalls and generally construction is more robust not
>> as robust as more Gravity focused MTB tires but certainly Marathons and
>> similar will survive glass slashing that would be career ending for a road
>> or Gravel tire.
>>
>> I generally retire the Big Apples on the commute bike when it gets too many
>> gashes, even quite large slashes doesn’t result in bulging etc.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> Are the roads really that bad where you are? Broken glass gashing
> tires?
>
> Granted much of my bike riding has been in developing countries where
> glass bottles can be resold and thus aren't usually scattered on the
> roads. In fact the worse flat I can remember was running over a stick
> with a bent nail in it, punched two holes in the tire... which rather
> emphasized the foolishness in running over sticks :-) That was back in
> the days before I carried spare inner tubes - sitting in the mud on
> the side of the road, in the rain, trying to get a patch to stick on a
> wet inner tube...
>

I'm empathetic, as we've all had those bad days. But they
are unusual which is why they make great anecdotes.

I was riding with a small group in Richland County (hilly,
unglaciated) and the one rider with clinchers suffered a
burst tire. I stretched a new Clement 220 silk ($$$! about
$12 then) over to his rim as we had no alternate. It was
lumpy with shredded sidewalls when we arrived in town 10~12
miles later.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 12/23/2023 7:15 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 12/23/2023 7:59 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Are the roads really that bad where you are? Broken glass
>>> gashing
>>> tires?...
>>
>> The commute or rather a short section of it, some is
>> dropped bottles lot is
>> car debris which you get on side of bypass type roads,
>> particularly unloved
>> areas such as areas north of Heathrow.
>
> I'll mention that glass shards, whether from bottles or
> crashed cars, are much less of a problem for cyclists who
> ride out in the lane, rather than at the far edge. Car tires
> tend to sweep pavement clean.
>

+1
My experience as well.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 2:15:25 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 12/23/2023 7:59 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Are the roads really that bad where you are? Broken glass gashing
> >> tires?...
> >
> > The commute or rather a short section of it, some is dropped bottles lot is
> > car debris which you get on side of bypass type roads, particularly unloved
> > areas such as areas north of Heathrow.
> I'll mention that glass shards, whether from bottles or crashed cars,
> are much less of a problem for cyclists who ride out in the lane, rather
> than at the far edge. Car tires tend to sweep pavement clean.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Every Sunday morning when riding to the meeting point of our Sunday morning ride I come across this bike path sweeper in the inner city that cleans the trash of the Saturday Neanderthaler shopping crowd:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Qp4tC99NkZPqZo9L7

Result:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/4hEJdWLyRQ8h6nyh9

Lou

On 12/24/2023 4:40 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
> Am Thu, 21 Dec 2023 22:05:14 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
>
>> I'm working on a bike as a sort of Christmas present. It needs tires,
>> and the rider would like tires as wide as possible. It's a Cannondale
>> touring bike, and like mine, the limiting spot for clearance is about
>> 37mm between the chainstays. Rims are Sun CR18, so these are stout wheels.
>>
>> After considerable thought, I thought 32s might be a bit too tight. I
>> ordered in a set of Continental Grand Prix 5000s, one of the few good
>> tires I find in a 30mm width. I picked them up at a LBS today.
>>
>> Installed, I was disappointed to see they measure just 27mm inflated. I
>> guess I should have gone with 32s, which might have come out closer to
>> 30mm.
>
> I mounted Continental Grand Prix 5000 S TR Folding Tires - 28-622 -
> black on DT Swiss P 1800 SPLINE db 23 wheels (ERTRO 18-622), when
> building our bikes in spring this year.
>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20230810/P1069511.jpg>
>
> Inflated to just over 4 bar, the tires on both bikes are almost exactly
> 28 mm wide from sidewall to sidewall.
>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/reifen/gp5000_IMG_2007.jpg>
> (measured today on my bike, on hear bike I got 28.05 mm)
>
> Just another data point.
>

New Santana tandem nearby with Gator Skin 700-28 on Velocity
Fusion actual = 26.5mm.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 12/24/2023 4:55 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 12/23/2023 5:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>> I spent 30, or so, years working as a "foreign worker" in countries
>>> that offered no "protection" to foreigners working there and a company
>>> could fire you any time that they wanted to and I never saw any
>>> oppression of the workers as U.S. Unions seem to allege.
>>
>> Members of my extended family have tales of worker abuse. One member of
>> the extended family provided testimony to a House of Representatives
>> committee investigating the issue, back in the 1930s. He talked about
>> the damage to a family owned gas station by National Guard bullets, when
>> Guard members fired on workers during some labor unrest. I've read the
>> transcript.
>>
>> Which is not to say unions are always right. I've seen abuses by both
>> management and by labor. But if an entire workforce gambles livelihood
>> by walking out on strike, it seems reasonably likely that they have
>> serious complaints.
>>
>
> Pre unions some folks got paid in tokens, which they could only spend at
> the company shop renting a house from the company and so on.
>
> It’s very much the everything in moderation or at least not to the extreme
> ends.
>
> Roger Merriman
>

Not disputing that situation (that and similar are well
known) but some people stayed to carp and moan while others
moved on to other, often more promising situations.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 12/24/2023 5:12 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 10:55:30 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 12/23/2023 5:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I spent 30, or so, years working as a "foreign worker" in countries
>>>> that offered no "protection" to foreigners working there and a company
>>>> could fire you any time that they wanted to and I never saw any
>>>> oppression of the workers as U.S. Unions seem to allege.
>>>
>>> Members of my extended family have tales of worker abuse. One member of
>>> the extended family provided testimony to a House of Representatives
>>> committee investigating the issue, back in the 1930s. He talked about
>>> the damage to a family owned gas station by National Guard bullets, when
>>> Guard members fired on workers during some labor unrest. I've read the
>>> transcript.
>>>
>>> Which is not to say unions are always right. I've seen abuses by both
>>> management and by labor. But if an entire workforce gambles livelihood
>>> by walking out on strike, it seems reasonably likely that they have
>>> serious complaints.
>>>
>>
>> Pre unions some folks got paid in tokens, which they could only spend at
>> the company shop renting a house from the company and so on.
>>
>> It’s very much the everything in moderation or at least not to the extreme
>> ends.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> "Way back when" all this is likely true but this is today. If you
> don't like the job go and get another.
>
> And yes, I've seen it happen. When I lived in the U.S. I bought a
> Japanese car (don't remember the make) and was having it serviced and
> got to talking with the mechanic. He'd been in some union, working for
> an Aluminum Company, that took the lads out on strike. "My" mechanic
> decided that this was a bunch of "s--t" and went off and got a job
> with a car dealer. Told me that working "flat rate" he was making more
> money then union wages and nobody was taking him out on strike.

Exactly.
None of those stories involve actual forced servitude;
People can do to you exactly and only what you will bear.
Had enough? Walk.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 12/24/2023 10:01 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 2:15:25 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 12/23/2023 7:59 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Are the roads really that bad where you are? Broken glass gashing
>>>> tires?...
>>>
>>> The commute or rather a short section of it, some is dropped bottles lot is
>>> car debris which you get on side of bypass type roads, particularly unloved
>>> areas such as areas north of Heathrow.
>> I'll mention that glass shards, whether from bottles or crashed cars,
>> are much less of a problem for cyclists who ride out in the lane, rather
>> than at the far edge. Car tires tend to sweep pavement clean.
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
>
> Every Sunday morning when riding to the meeting point of our Sunday morning ride I come across this bike path sweeper in the inner city that cleans the trash of the Saturday Neanderthaler shopping crowd:
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/Qp4tC99NkZPqZo9L7
>
> Result:
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/4hEJdWLyRQ8h6nyh9
>
> Lou

That's Nederlands.
We were discussing less developed countries!

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iW9H3QSBE1c/Tfik-0vZxSI/AAAAAAAADh4/A5a1ywCfYWw/s1600/debris_field.JPG

http://content.bikeroar.com/system/content/000/097/877/original/bike_lane_debris.jpg?1430246189

https://bikesnobnyc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/trash-in-bike-lane.jpeg

quick web search shows myriad similar examples.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 12/24/2023 11:37 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/24/2023 10:01 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 2:15:25 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 12/23/2023 7:59 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Are the roads really that bad where you are? Broken glass gashing
>>>>> tires?...
>>>>
>>>> The commute or rather a short section of it, some is dropped bottles
>>>> lot is
>>>> car debris which you get on side of bypass type roads, particularly
>>>> unloved
>>>> areas such as areas north of Heathrow.
>>> I'll mention that glass shards, whether from bottles or crashed cars,
>>> are much less of a problem for cyclists who ride out in the lane, rather
>>> than at the far edge. Car tires tend to sweep pavement clean.
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>>
>> Every Sunday morning when riding to the meeting point of our Sunday
>> morning ride I come across this bike path sweeper in the inner city
>> that cleans the trash of the Saturday Neanderthaler shopping crowd:
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/Qp4tC99NkZPqZo9L7
>>
>> Result:
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/4hEJdWLyRQ8h6nyh9
>>
>> Lou
>
> That's Nederlands.
> We were discussing less developed countries!
>
> https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iW9H3QSBE1c/Tfik-0vZxSI/AAAAAAAADh4/A5a1ywCfYWw/s1600/debris_field.JPG
>
> http://content.bikeroar.com/system/content/000/097/877/original/bike_lane_debris.jpg?1430246189
>
> https://bikesnobnyc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/trash-in-bike-lane.jpeg
>
> quick web search shows myriad similar examples.

Indeed! As I think I mentioned, the very latest new bike lanes in our
area were debris-clogged within a week. One downpour did the job,
washing mountains of dirt and gravel into the lanes. Subsequent rain has
removed some of it, but much remains, and will probably still be there
come spring.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 12/24/2023 5:40 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
> Am Thu, 21 Dec 2023 22:05:14 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
>
>> I'm working on a bike as a sort of Christmas present. It needs tires,
>> and the rider would like tires as wide as possible. It's a Cannondale
>> touring bike, and like mine, the limiting spot for clearance is about
>> 37mm between the chainstays. Rims are Sun CR18, so these are stout wheels.
>>
>> After considerable thought, I thought 32s might be a bit too tight. I
>> ordered in a set of Continental Grand Prix 5000s, one of the few good
>> tires I find in a 30mm width. I picked them up at a LBS today.
>>
>> Installed, I was disappointed to see they measure just 27mm inflated. I
>> guess I should have gone with 32s, which might have come out closer to
>> 30mm.
>
> I mounted Continental Grand Prix 5000 S TR Folding Tires - 28-622 -
> black on DT Swiss P 1800 SPLINE db 23 wheels (ERTRO 18-622), when
> building our bikes in spring this year.
>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20230810/P1069511.jpg>
>
> Inflated to just over 4 bar, the tires on both bikes are almost exactly
> 28 mm wide from sidewall to sidewall.
>
> <https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/reifen/gp5000_IMG_2007.jpg>
> (measured today on my bike, on hear bike I got 28.05 mm)
>
> Just another data point.

I didn't measure, but online sources claim this bike's inner rim width
is 17.5mm, so 0.5 less than yours. Seems not enough to account for the
difference.

The tire's box says just Continental Grand Prix 5000, no extra letters
like S or TR.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 12/24/2023 6:12 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 10:55:30 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 12/23/2023 5:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I spent 30, or so, years working as a "foreign worker" in countries
>>>> that offered no "protection" to foreigners working there and a company
>>>> could fire you any time that they wanted to and I never saw any
>>>> oppression of the workers as U.S. Unions seem to allege.
>>>
>>> Members of my extended family have tales of worker abuse. One member of
>>> the extended family provided testimony to a House of Representatives
>>> committee investigating the issue, back in the 1930s. He talked about
>>> the damage to a family owned gas station by National Guard bullets, when
>>> Guard members fired on workers during some labor unrest. I've read the
>>> transcript.
>>>
>>> Which is not to say unions are always right. I've seen abuses by both
>>> management and by labor. But if an entire workforce gambles livelihood
>>> by walking out on strike, it seems reasonably likely that they have
>>> serious complaints.
>>>
>>
>> Pre unions some folks got paid in tokens, which they could only spend at
>> the company shop renting a house from the company and so on.
>>
>> It’s very much the everything in moderation or at least not to the extreme
>> ends.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> "Way back when" all this is likely true but this is today. If you
> don't like the job go and get another.

Situations vary, which should be obvious. The U.S. is currently in a
period of worker scarcity, with "We're hiring!" signs very common. At
least for low level jobs, many can probably jump ship at will.

But during lean employment times, that can be much more difficult,
especially if family responsibilities restrict a person's ability to
change cities.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 12/24/2023 11:59 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 12/24/2023 6:12 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 10:55:30 GMT, Roger Merriman
>> <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 12/23/2023 5:54 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I spent 30, or so, years working as a "foreign worker"
>>>>> in countries
>>>>> that offered no "protection" to foreigners working
>>>>> there and a company
>>>>> could fire you any time that they wanted to and I never
>>>>> saw any
>>>>> oppression of the workers as U.S. Unions seem to allege.
>>>>
>>>> Members of my extended family have tales of worker
>>>> abuse. One member of
>>>> the extended family provided testimony to a House of
>>>> Representatives
>>>> committee investigating the issue, back in the 1930s. He
>>>> talked about
>>>> the damage to a family owned gas station by National
>>>> Guard bullets, when
>>>> Guard members fired on workers during some labor unrest.
>>>> I've read the
>>>> transcript.
>>>>
>>>> Which is not to say unions are always right. I've seen
>>>> abuses by both
>>>> management and by labor. But if an entire workforce
>>>> gambles livelihood
>>>> by walking out on strike, it seems reasonably likely
>>>> that they have
>>>> serious complaints.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Pre unions some folks got paid in tokens, which they
>>> could only spend at
>>> the company shop renting a house from the company and so on.
>>>
>>> It’s very much the everything in moderation or at least
>>> not to the extreme
>>> ends.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> "Way back when" all this is likely true but this is today.
>> If you
>> don't like the job go and get another.
>
> Situations vary, which should be obvious. The U.S. is
> currently in a period of worker scarcity, with "We're
> hiring!" signs very common. At least for low level jobs,
> many can probably jump ship at will.
>
> But during lean employment times, that can be much more
> difficult, especially if family responsibilities restrict a
> person's ability to change cities.
>

IME moving[1] to take any job, with the natural progression
of skills/wage increases, will quickly put a guy ahead over
any time period versus another guy over the same time
including 'laid off' or 'slacking' time.

p.s. One job is usually a lower standard of living than 2,
or 1-1/2, or one with a side hustle.

As always, YMMV and likely did/does.

[1] Across the street as it were in the same industry or
across the country as I have also done.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 12/24/2023 1:07 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/24/2023 11:59 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> Situations vary, which should be obvious. The U.S. is currently in a
>> period of worker scarcity, with "We're hiring!" signs very common. At
>> least for low level jobs, many can probably jump ship at will.
>>
>> But during lean employment times, that can be much more difficult,
>> especially if family responsibilities restrict a person's ability to
>> change cities.
>>
>
> IME moving[1] to take any job, with the natural progression of
> skills/wage increases, will quickly put a guy ahead over any time period
> versus another guy over the same time including 'laid off' or 'slacking'
> time.

Well, that depends too. There are people who rise rather quickly from
very low level jobs to upper management positions, all within the same
company. My father was one. Could he instead have jumped to an
out-of-state company? Given the houseful of kids who would all have
needed to change schools, it's very doubtful.

--
- Frank Krygowski

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 12/24/2023 10:01 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 2:15:25 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 12/23/2023 7:59 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Are the roads really that bad where you are? Broken glass gashing
>>>>> tires?...
>>>>
>>>> The commute or rather a short section of it, some is dropped bottles lot is
>>>> car debris which you get on side of bypass type roads, particularly unloved
>>>> areas such as areas north of Heathrow.
>>> I'll mention that glass shards, whether from bottles or crashed cars,
>>> are much less of a problem for cyclists who ride out in the lane, rather
>>> than at the far edge. Car tires tend to sweep pavement clean.
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>>
>> Every Sunday morning when riding to the meeting point of our Sunday
>> morning ride I come across this bike path sweeper in the inner city that
>> cleans the trash of the Saturday Neanderthaler shopping crowd:
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/Qp4tC99NkZPqZo9L7
>>
>> Result:
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/4hEJdWLyRQ8h6nyh9
>>
>> Lou
>
> That's Nederlands.
> We were discussing less developed countries!
>
> https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iW9H3QSBE1c/Tfik-0vZxSI/AAAAAAAADh4/A5a1ywCfYWw/s1600/debris_field.JPG
>
> http://content.bikeroar.com/system/content/000/097/877/original/bike_lane_debris.jpg?1430246189
>
> https://bikesnobnyc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/trash-in-bike-lane.jpeg
>
> quick web search shows myriad similar examples.

Even london does that at least most, my commute cycleway is old and barely
used and forgotten so gets a street cleaner man and cart few times a year,
it crosses two council boundaries.

But newer stuff certainly gets cleaned with these wee mini sweepers, after
all stuff like the, Chiswick high street cycleway handles more traffic than
the road during rush hours.

Roger Merriman

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 12/23/2023 4:04 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> On 12/22/2023 9:49 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 7:34:33 AM UTC-8, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>>> On 12/22/2023 10:28 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, December 22, 2023 at 5:58:51 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/21/2023 9:05 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>>> I'm working on a bike as a sort of Christmas present. It
>>>>>>>> needs tires, and the rider would like tires as wide as
>>>>>>>> possible. It's a Cannondale touring bike, and like mine, the
>>>>>>>> limiting spot for clearance is about 37mm between the
>>>>>>>> chainstays. Rims are Sun CR18, so these are stout wheels.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> After considerable thought, I thought 32s might be a bit too
>>>>>>>> tight. I ordered in a set of Continental Grand Prix 5000s,
>>>>>>>> one of the few good tires I find in a 30mm width. I picked
>>>>>>>> them up at a LBS today.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Installed, I was disappointed to see they measure just 27mm
>>>>>>>> inflated. I guess I should have gone with 32s, which might
>>>>>>>> have come out closer to 30mm.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's not a huge problem. These will work. But my question:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know actual installed tire width depends partly on the
>>>>>>>> rim. I also know that many manufacturers tend to overstate
>>>>>>>> tire width, yielding tires narrower than claimed, partly so
>>>>>>>> they can brag about lighter weight. (If they call it a 30
>>>>>>>> but it's only a 27, some people will say "Wow, that's light
>>>>>>>> for a 30!")
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there some sort database somewhere that gives reliable
>>>>>>>> info on actual installed width of specific tires on specific
>>>>>>>> rims?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> None I know. An experienced mechanic can give some direction
>>>>>>> but that's about it.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> I find it curious that Frank is a supposed engineer and cannot take
>>>>>> into account the inner width of rims.
>>>>> I find it curious that someone who "read out three libraries" doesn't
>>>>> realize Frank wrote the exact opposite.
>>>>> "I know actual installed tire width depends partly on the rim".
>>>>> dumbass.
>>>>
>>>> When you're through agreeing with yourself it might possibly occur to
>>>> you that Frank was complaining about inflated tire width while using a
>>>> racing tire. Racing tires are constructed differently than touring tires
>>>> but obviously you don't know that. It must be all of that racing you do
>>>> that you can't tell the difference between a CX tire and a road tire.
>>>>
>>>> You're simply too stupid to talk to and I will now drop this iteration
>>>> of your idiocy in the kill file that Liebermann claims does exist
>>>> because he can tell by the message header.,
>>>
>>> ??? WTF? That 'distinction' is not an actual distinction.
>>>
>>> Modern race bikes ship with 700-28 clinchers which, to me,
>>> are 'touring tires', quite unlike my 23mm tubulars.
>>>
>>>
>> Similar or same sized tires see also some Gravel tires, but touring tires
>> do have more robust sidewalls and generally construction is more robust not
>> as robust as more Gravity focused MTB tires but certainly Marathons and
>> similar will survive glass slashing that would be career ending for a road
>> or Gravel tire.
>>
>> I generally retire the Big Apples on the commute bike when it gets too many
>> gashes, even quite large slashes doesn’t result in bulging etc.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>>
>
> Semantically unclear to me.
> Popular touring models such as Gravel King, Pasela etc have
> supple thin open sidewalls with fine thread material.
> Commuter tires such as Urban Max and RibMo have heavy stiff
> sidewalls.

I’ve always taken Schwalbe line ie stuff like Marathon types or similar for
the commute/touring I’ve never toured or likely to but do commute, and such
tires are popular a glance at a bike rack, will verify this.

To be honest the sidewalls for the commute is less of thing, the Big Apples
have lightweight sidewalls but doesn’t seem to effect the tires durability
on the commute, wouldn’t last long down a black run get slashed open in no
time.

Roger Merriman

On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 18:40:16 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>> On 12/24/2023 10:01 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>> On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 2:15:25?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 12/23/2023 7:59 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are the roads really that bad where you are? Broken glass gashing
>>>>>> tires?...
>>>>>
>>>>> The commute or rather a short section of it, some is dropped bottles lot is
>>>>> car debris which you get on side of bypass type roads, particularly unloved
>>>>> areas such as areas north of Heathrow.
>>>> I'll mention that glass shards, whether from bottles or crashed cars,
>>>> are much less of a problem for cyclists who ride out in the lane, rather
>>>> than at the far edge. Car tires tend to sweep pavement clean.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>>
>>> Every Sunday morning when riding to the meeting point of our Sunday
>>> morning ride I come across this bike path sweeper in the inner city that
>>> cleans the trash of the Saturday Neanderthaler shopping crowd:
>>>
>>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/Qp4tC99NkZPqZo9L7
>>>
>>> Result:
>>>
>>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/4hEJdWLyRQ8h6nyh9
>>>
>>> Lou
>>
>> That's Nederlands.
>> We were discussing less developed countries!
>>
>> https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iW9H3QSBE1c/Tfik-0vZxSI/AAAAAAAADh4/A5a1ywCfYWw/s1600/debris_field.JPG
>>
>> http://content.bikeroar.com/system/content/000/097/877/original/bike_lane_debris.jpg?1430246189
>>
>> https://bikesnobnyc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/trash-in-bike-lane.jpeg
>>
>> quick web search shows myriad similar examples.
>
>Even london does that at least most, my commute cycleway is old and barely
>used and forgotten so gets a street cleaner man and cart few times a year,
>it crosses two council boundaries.
>
>But newer stuff certainly gets cleaned with these wee mini sweepers, after
>all stuff like the, Chiswick high street cycleway handles more traffic than
>the road during rush hours.
>
>Roger Merriman

NO broken glass where I ride..

Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Dec 2023 18:40:16 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> On 12/24/2023 10:01 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 2:15:25?AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 12/23/2023 7:59 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>> John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are the roads really that bad where you are? Broken glass gashing
>>>>>>> tires?...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The commute or rather a short section of it, some is dropped bottles lot is
>>>>>> car debris which you get on side of bypass type roads, particularly unloved
>>>>>> areas such as areas north of Heathrow.
>>>>> I'll mention that glass shards, whether from bottles or crashed cars,
>>>>> are much less of a problem for cyclists who ride out in the lane, rather
>>>>> than at the far edge. Car tires tend to sweep pavement clean.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Every Sunday morning when riding to the meeting point of our Sunday
>>>> morning ride I come across this bike path sweeper in the inner city that
>>>> cleans the trash of the Saturday Neanderthaler shopping crowd:
>>>>
>>>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/Qp4tC99NkZPqZo9L7
>>>>
>>>> Result:
>>>>
>>>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/4hEJdWLyRQ8h6nyh9
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>
>>> That's Nederlands.
>>> We were discussing less developed countries!
>>>
>>> https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-iW9H3QSBE1c/Tfik-0vZxSI/AAAAAAAADh4/A5a1ywCfYWw/s1600/debris_field.JPG
>>>
>>> http://content.bikeroar.com/system/content/000/097/877/original/bike_lane_debris.jpg?1430246189
>>>
>>> https://bikesnobnyc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/trash-in-bike-lane.jpeg
>>>
>>> quick web search shows myriad similar examples.
>>
>> Even london does that at least most, my commute cycleway is old and barely
>> used and forgotten so gets a street cleaner man and cart few times a year,
>> it crosses two council boundaries.
>>
>> But newer stuff certainly gets cleaned with these wee mini sweepers, after
>> all stuff like the, Chiswick high street cycleway handles more traffic than
>> the road during rush hours.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> NO broken glass where I ride..
>

Nor on my leisure rides be that into Surrey hills or into london, it’s only
the cycleways next to bypasses that are prone to such stuff, and that one
section which is combination of being closer to the kerb and one of the
roads that is a accident black spot mainly due to traffic congestion and
design I guess it’s all of 1/4 of mile can occasionally pass broken glass
on route but it’s rare and generally it’s to the side next to kerb or even
on the cycleway which is wide enough for most part, it’s only on the
flyover that has a spread of glass.

And yes some of the trails I use more like you use are glass free.

It’s either motor vehicles or drunk folks dropping bottles.

But to be honest I’d use BigApples even without glass resistant nature, the
fact they last 5/8k (miles) and ride well.

There only downside is they don’t like mud if I take woods home, and drift
about.

Roger Merriman

On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 11:01:36 AM UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, December 24, 2023 at 2:15:25 AM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 12/23/2023 7:59 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > John B. <sloc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Are the roads really that bad where you are? Broken glass gashing
> > >> tires?...
> > >
> > > The commute or rather a short section of it, some is dropped bottles lot is
> > > car debris which you get on side of bypass type roads, particularly unloved
> > > areas such as areas north of Heathrow.
> > I'll mention that glass shards, whether from bottles or crashed cars,
> > are much less of a problem for cyclists who ride out in the lane, rather
> > than at the far edge. Car tires tend to sweep pavement clean.
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> Every Sunday morning when riding to the meeting point of our Sunday morning ride I come across this bike path sweeper in the inner city that cleans the trash of the Saturday Neanderthaler shopping crowd:
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/Qp4tC99NkZPqZo9L7

I don't see any trash in that photo, just leaves dropped from the trees.

>
> Result:
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/4hEJdWLyRQ8h6nyh9
>
> Lou