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computers / comp.mobile.android / Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

SubjectAuthor
* Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge tiAndy Burnelli
+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
|`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -John McGaw
|+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -AJL
||`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Jolly Roger
|`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Jolly Roger
`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargJeff Liebermann
 +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequentlyChris
 |+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 ||`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -John McGaw
 || +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 || | `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |  `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |   `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 || |    `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |     +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 || |     `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |      +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 || |      `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Lewis
 || `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 |+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 ||+- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 ||+- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargJeff Liebermann
 ||`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Jolly Roger
 || `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Wade Garrett
 ||  +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Jolly Roger
 ||  |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Wade Garrett
 ||  +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 ||  |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 ||  `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 |+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargJeff Liebermann
 ||+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargJeff Liebermann
 |||`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargAndy Burnelli
 ||| `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargJeff Liebermann
 |||  +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 |||  |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargAndy Burnelli
 |||  +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargClifford Heath
 |||  |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargAndy Burnelli
 |||  `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargAndy Burnelli
 ||+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Jolly Roger
 |||`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargJeff Liebermann
 ||`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 || +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargJeff Liebermann
 || |+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -AJL
 || ||`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargJeff Liebermann
 || || +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -AJL
 || || `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequentlyChris
 || ||  +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 || ||  +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || ||  |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargmike
 || ||  `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -AJL
 || |+* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || ||`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargJeff Liebermann
 || |+- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 || |`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Bob F
 || | `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |  `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 || |   `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |    +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 || |    `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |     +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 || |     `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |      `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 || |       `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |        +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 || |        |`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |        | +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 || |        | |`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |        | | +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |        | | |+- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 || |        | | |`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |        | | | +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 || |        | | | +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Lewis
 || |        | | | |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |        | | | `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |        | | |  `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |        | | |   +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |        | | |   |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 || |        | | |   +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 || |        | | |   `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargJeff Liebermann
 || |        | | |    +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargJeff Liebermann
 || |        | | |    +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |        | | |    |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargJeff Liebermann
 || |        | | |    `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 || |        | | |     +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargJeff Liebermann
 || |        | | |     |`* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 || |        | | |     | `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargJeff Liebermann
 || |        | | |     |  +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 || |        | | |     |  `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |        | | |     |   `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargJeff Liebermann
 || |        | | |     |    `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || |        | | |     |     `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 || |        | | |     `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 || |        | | +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargnospam
 || |        | | +- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Lewis
 || |        | | `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Bob F
 || |        | `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Lewis
 || |        `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Lewis
 || +* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -sms
 || `- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Carlos E.R.
 |`- Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -Jolly Roger
 `* Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-chargAndy Burnelli

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Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

<t53ssf$ogt$1@dont-email.me>

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From: scharf.s...@geemail.com (sms)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
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 by: sms - Fri, 6 May 2022 19:28 UTC

On 5/6/2022 11:29 AM, Wade Garrett wrote:
> On 5/6/22 11:43 AM, Jolly Roger wrote:
>> On 2022-05-06, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>> On 5/6/2022 12:57 AM, Chris wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> Interesting to see it born out in practice, but it is a known fact.
>>>> Fast charging heats up the battery and heat damages the battery,
>>>> therefore fast charging will reduce the battery life.
>>>
>>> Actually there is no evidence that "fast charging," at the rates we're
>>> currently seeing on most phones, damages batteries.
>>
>> Wrong. There's plenty of evidence that fast charging increases heat
>> which is damaging to batteries.
>>
> I worry about heat too. Wireless charging my iPhone on the Qi pad in my
> car warms the phone...and more so if I leave it in its case.
>
> And it warms even more if I also rest it on the sticky pad I sometimes
> keep on the car's charge pad to prevent the phone from sliding when
> turning corners.

Inductive charging is not the same as wired charging.

For wired charging, there is no downside to proper fast charging that
charges at a higher rate when the battery is very discharged then
reducing the charge rate as the battery fills.

From
<https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/does-fast-charging-affect-battery-life-6-phone-battery-questions-answered/>:

"Unless there's some technical flaw with your battery or charger
electronics, however, using a fast charger won't do your phone's battery
any long-term damage.

Here's why. Fast-charging batteries work in two phases. The first phase
applies a blast of voltage to the empty or nearly empty battery. This
gives you that blazing charge of from 50% to 70% in the first 10, 15 or
30 minutes. That's because during the first phase of charging, batteries
can absorb a charge quickly without major negative effects on their
long-term health."

Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

<9t2b7hpv47g0flnoi6uu0uemaupkfkil47@4ax.com>

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From: jef...@cruzio.com (Jeff Liebermann)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
Date: Fri, 06 May 2022 14:26:49 -0700
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 by: Jeff Liebermann - Fri, 6 May 2022 21:26 UTC

On Fri, 6 May 2022 17:44:09 +0100, Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com>
wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
>> Oops. Wrong app. The one I was using is:
>> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.liuzh.deviceinfo>

>To add more to that suggestion, personally I install only apps that are GSF
>free and that don't contain ads and which have high'ish ratings & installs.

What's a GSF? All I could find was Golden State Foods.

My criteria for apps is no adds and the ability to do at least the one
thing that I need very well. I don't care about the rest.

>Although for some reason, moving from Android 11 to 12 removed hundreds!

Ummm... How many apps do you have on your Android phone? See:
Settings -> Apps and Notifications
and look for something like "See all 202 apps". Mine has 202 apps,
which I consider to be an overdose.

> <https://i.postimg.cc/FHJ16nvF/update01.jpg> Android 11->12 screwed up!

I'm still on Android 11 and am now at end of life with the last
security update on Apr 22, 2022.
<https://motorola-global-portal.custhelp.com/app/software-security-page/g_id/6806#gs=eyJndWlkZUlEIjo2ODA2LCJxdWVzdGlvbklEIjo0LCJyZXNwb25zZUlEIjoyMSwiZ3VpZGVTZXNzaW9uIjoiSjFJZ2huRXAiLCJzZXNzaW9uSUQiOiJKMUlnaG5FcCJ9>
That's a 2 year useful life from date of Apr 2020 release. Part of
the problem is that Motorola has too many models to maintain:
"Evolution of Motorola Moto G 2013 - 2021"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8d2tUYjn0U>

>So it's not hard to recover even with hundreds of apps gone AWOL.

I would think that the Android 12 update did you a favor. Time for a
spring cleaning. Wipe everything and start over from scratch.

>But what you see here are the adfree hardware device info apps I suggest:
> *DevCheck Hardware and System Info* by flar2
> *Inware* by evowizz
> *Device Info HW* by Andrey Efremov

Ok, I'll give them a try but will probably add them to my "run once"
app collection. Thanks for including the author's name. Apps with
duplicated names are becoming all too common.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

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From: jef...@cruzio.com (Jeff Liebermann)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
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 by: Jeff Liebermann - Fri, 6 May 2022 21:53 UTC

On Fri, 6 May 2022 10:07:35 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 5/6/2022 7:53 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Fri, 6 May 2022 07:57:08 -0000 (UTC), Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Interesting to see it born out in practice, but it is a known fact. Fast
>>> charging heats up the battery and heat damages the battery, therefore fast
>>> charging will reduce the battery life.
>>
>> Nope, or at least not what I've seen with my testing (and screwing
>> around). A few decades ago, I decided that NiCd cells would only
>> become warm if over charged past 100%. Well, I was off a little but
>> my thermocouple tests showed that up to about 75% of full charge, I
>> could literally charge the NiCd cell at whatever sky high rate I found
>> amusing. The problem was that if I missed and went over about 85% of
>> full charge at the ridiculous rates I was using, the cell would
>> generate enough gas and heat to blow the end out and generally make a
>> mess.
>
>Ni-cad cells are less efficient when slow-charged (see
><https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-407-charging-nickel-cadmium>).

"Where does it say that on the URL you mentioned? All I find is:
To achieve a reliable voltage signature, the charge rate must be 0.5C
and higher. Slower charging produces a less defined voltage drop,
especially if the cells are mismatched in which case each cell reaches
full charge at a different time point."
In other words, the dip in terminal voltage that defines EOC
(end-of-charge) is less obvious for a slow charge than for a faster
charge. If the charge controller misses this dip, it could easily
overcharge the NiCd battery and ruin it. There's nothing in there
about "efficiency".

>NiMH cells are best charged using the "step-differential" method (see
><https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-408-charging-nickel-metal-hydride>).

I think we have different definitions of what is "best". From the
above URL:

"Chargers utilizing the step-differential or other aggressive charge
methods achieve a capacity gain of about 6 percent over a more basic
charger. Although a higher capacity is desirable, filling the battery
to the brim adds stress and shortens the overall battery life. Rather
than achieving the expected 350 - 400 service cycles, the aggressive
charger might exhaust the pack after 300 cycles."

I read that as a 6% theoretical gain, at the cost of 100 service
cycles or about 30% of the useful life of the battery. As I vaguely
recall, the justification for step-differential charging was that it
was less likely to overcharge a battery when the battery was being
"topped off" near the EOC. The 30% loss of useful life was considered
justifiable compared to killing the battery from overcharging.

>It seems like many people want to believe that slow-charging batteries
>has some benefit in longevity and/or capacity, so you see statements
>like "it is a known fact...," even when the statements are really not true.

It is a known fact that most known facts are wrong.

Please note that until you brought up the term "battery", which means
more than one "cell", the discussion was about cell phones, which
currently favor one LiIon cell and do not use a "battery" of cells.
With a single cell, the complexities of a BMS (battery management
system), cell balancing, over/under voltage, over/under current, etc
are not quite as complexicated as with a battery of cells.

>If the choice is only between a) "fast charge at high-current to 100%
>capacity" versus b) slow-charge at low current to 100% capacity" then
>yes, slow charging is better, but that's not how modern smart phones, or
>modern electric vehicles, with lithium-based batteries actually are charged.

True. Again, we started this discussion with single LiIon cells as
found in smartphones. It would be nice if your could limit the
discussion to this arrangement.

Note that the common dictionary definition of battery is "consisting
of one or more cells". It wasn't always like that, but since
literally everyone uses battery when they should be using call, the
official definition was mutilated to accommodate an expanded
definition.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

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Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
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 by: AJL - Fri, 6 May 2022 22:04 UTC

On 5/6/2022 2:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> Note that the common dictionary definition of battery is "consisting
> of one or more cells". It wasn't always like that, but since
> literally everyone uses battery when they should be using call, the
> official definition was mutilated to accommodate an expanded
> definition.

Language changes. Always has. Battery is a correct usage for cell phones
these days according to several dictionaries. Just as doing things you
really really enjoy makes you gay. Well at least it did in my youth...

Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

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From: jef...@cruzio.com (Jeff Liebermann)
Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
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 by: Jeff Liebermann - Fri, 6 May 2022 22:32 UTC

On Fri, 6 May 2022 16:43:41 +0100, Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com>
wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Please not that I didn't write the following quote, you did. Please
watch your attributions.

>>>I am testing if it takes _longer_ to "fast charge" a phone if you
>>>_frequently_ let the battery run down to zero - and it seems to be.
>>
>> Why?
>
>That's like asking a chemistry teacher why there's a chemistry lab.
>Or asking a physics professor why she bothers to run the lab.
>Or asking why a microbiology class bothers to grow bacterial cultures.

No, it's not. I guess I should be more specific. I would like to
know why you find it necessary to test a LiIon cell in a charge range
of zero to 20%, where literally every recommendation by the
manufacturers declare that to be an RBI (really bad idea)? Looks that
specs for any BMS (battery management system) found inside most LiIon
battery packs. There is a feature that literally disconnects the cell
if the terminal voltage goes below some value which usually works out
to about 20% charge. Maybe this will help you understand the problem
you're creating for yourself:
"Lithium Ion Cell Operating Window"
<https://www.mpoweruk.com/lithium_failures.htm>
Notice that the "operating area" is between 20% and 90% SOC.

>So it's not just me who is curious what happens in the real world.

Yes, but you are not the entire real world. Your currently
undisclosed operating criteria is not the same as every user and
certainly not the same as the cell phone manufacturer. The
manufacturer wants big numbers because big number sell phones.
Whatever it takes to produce big numbers balanced by cost and safety
issues. Big numbers are rather useless if the phone catches fire in
the owners pocket. So, the game of battery specmanship degenerates
into squeezing as many watt-hours out of the battery as possible by
any means deemed economical (and maybe reliable). Do it wrong, and
you have a situation like Apple, where the phone had to be slowed down
to produce a reasonable runtime as the battery aged. At that point,
the user gets involved and tries to squeeze out as much power as
possible. However, they can't because the manufacturer has already
done that with a complexicated BMS algorithm. So the user looks to
see what can be gained by breaking the safety rules. Good luck. If
you are actually able to run the phone at extremely low SOC, then the
manufacturer has screwed up and is selling an unsafe phone, battery,
or both. What phone and battery are you using and I'll be sure to
blacklist it.

>I've always been curious about the best way to do almost any thing.
>And destructive testing is a fantastic way to figure out what really
>happens in the real world under real world conditions, even as you can't
>hope to run a "consumers report" style full-fledged scientific
>investigation with basic home equipment.

Please note my domain name, LearnByDestroying.com. The intent is
slightly different from yours. It's my contention that one does not
understand how something works without first breaking it, and
subsequently fixing it. Destructive testing, without subsequent
understanding (and enlightenment) is useless.

>Still... I try to learn... and destructive testing is part of learning.

It's a tiny part but admittedly the fun part. It's lots of fun to
blow things up. It's less fun, but more educational to understand how
the device you just destroyed functions. When you destroy something
(like your phone battery), do you take or record measurements? Do you
record a video for an instant replay? Have you worked out in advance
what you expect to happen? Do you look for anomalies? Do you own a
data logger? How would blowing up a cell phone battery demonstrate
anything if you don't know at what voltage (or SOC) and temperature it
blew up? Did you put a plastic bag over the phone to capture any
gasses (and flying glass) produced? Do you have a new battery or
phone available for comparisons? Without these, all you've "learned"
is how to blow up a battery or phone.

>When I was a kid, my dad kept a box of old "stuff" for me to take apart.

Hint: I still act like I'm kid. I even take things apart BEFORE I
try operating them.

>Why does anyone run any experiment?

Usually because they are suspicious of the established theories of
operation and have reason to suspect that parts of the theories are
wrong or badly understood.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

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 by: sms - Fri, 6 May 2022 22:42 UTC

On 5/6/2022 2:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

<snip>

> "Where does it say that on the URL you mentioned? All I find is:
> To achieve a reliable voltage signature, the charge rate must be 0.5C
> and higher. Slower charging produces a less defined voltage drop,
> especially if the cells are mismatched in which case each cell reaches
> full charge at a different time point."

"Fast charging improves the charge efficiency. At 1C charge rate, the
efficiency of a standard NiCd is 91 percent and the charge time is about
an hour (66 minutes at 91 percent). On a slow charger, the efficiency
drops to 71 percent, prolonging the charge time to about 14 hours at 0.1C."

Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

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Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
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 by: Jeff Liebermann - Fri, 6 May 2022 22:43 UTC

On Fri, 6 May 2022 15:04:21 -0700, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:

>On 5/6/2022 2:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
>> Note that the common dictionary definition of battery is "consisting
>> of one or more cells". It wasn't always like that, but since
>> literally everyone uses battery when they should be using call, the
>> official definition was mutilated to accommodate an expanded
>> definition.
>
>Language changes. Always has. Battery is a correct usage for cell phones
>these days according to several dictionaries. Just as doing things you
>really really enjoy makes you gay. Well at least it did in my youth...

The original definition of battery referred to a collection of
artillery for military purposes.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery_battery>
"Historically the term "battery" referred to a cluster of cannon in
action as a group, either in a temporary field position during a
battle or at the siege of a fortress or a city."

Ok. Let's say you have exactly one cannon. Would you call it a
"battery"? Or would you call it a "battery of cannon"? Methinks not.
So why would you call a single cell, as found in a cell phone, a
"battery"?

What do you call a collection of cells? A gallery of cells such as
celery?

Drivel:
One mouse, two mice.
One house, two hice?

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

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From: Wad...@cooler.net (Wade Garrett)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
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 by: Wade Garrett - Fri, 6 May 2022 23:04 UTC

On 5/6/22 2:44 PM, Jolly Roger wrote:
> On 2022-05-06, Wade Garrett <Wade@cooler.net> wrote:
>> On 5/6/22 11:43 AM, Jolly Roger wrote:
>>> On 2022-05-06, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 5/6/2022 12:57 AM, Chris wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>> Interesting to see it born out in practice, but it is a known fact.
>>>>> Fast charging heats up the battery and heat damages the battery,
>>>>> therefore fast charging will reduce the battery life.
>>>>
>>>> Actually there is no evidence that "fast charging," at the rates
>>>> we're currently seeing on most phones, damages batteries.
>>>
>>> Wrong. There's plenty of evidence that fast charging increases heat
>>> which is damaging to batteries.
>>>
>> I worry about heat too. Wireless charging my iPhone on the Qi pad in
>> my car warms the phone...and more so if I leave it in its case.
>>
>> And it warms even more if I also rest it on the sticky pad I sometimes
>> keep on the car's charge pad to prevent the phone from sliding when
>> turning corners.
>
> Quod sequitur. Wireless charging is generally less efficient than using
> a physical connection, and the greater the distance between the coils,
> the less efficient the transfer of energy is and the more heat gets
> generated. A case will increase the distance and lessen the efficiency.
>
> Since I use an old iPhone SE as a dash cam in my car, and I don't smoke,
> I have a Lightning to USB charge cable semi-permanently connected to the
> cigarette lighter port in the center console. So I just use that same
> cable in the extremely rare instances I need to charge my daily-driver
> iPhone in the car (can't actually remember the last time that was though
> - probably on a road trip).
>
Just curious- do you leave the phone sitting on the dash when parking
the car in the street or parking lot?

--
If an old dude ever gives you advice while peeling an apple with a
pocket knife and eating the pieces right off the blade, you should
probably take it.

Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

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Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
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 by: AJL - Fri, 6 May 2022 23:12 UTC

On 5/6/2022 3:43 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 6 May 2022 15:04:21 -0700, AJL <noemail@none.com> wrote:
>
>> On 5/6/2022 2:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

>>> Note that the common dictionary definition of battery is
>>> "consisting of one or more cells". It wasn't always like that,
>>> but since literally everyone uses battery when they should be
>>> using call, the official definition was mutilated to accommodate
>>> an expanded definition.
>>
>> Language changes. Always has. Battery is a correct usage for cell
>> phones these days according to several dictionaries. Just as doing
>> things you really really enjoy makes you gay. Well at least it did
>> in my youth...
>
> The original definition of battery referred to a collection of
> artillery for military purposes.
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery_battery> "Historically the
> term "battery" referred to a cluster of cannon in action as a group,
> either in a temporary field position during a battle or at the siege
> of a fortress or a city."

And the original definition of gay was happy. I repeat, language
changes. Dictionaries usually give the current meaning, though they
sometimes disagree as well.

> Ok. Let's say you have exactly one cannon. Would you call it a
> "battery"? Or would you call it a "battery of cannon"?

I'd call it a cannon. That's current usage. Language is not always
logical...

> Methinks not. So why would you call a single cell, as found in a cell
> phone, a "battery"?

Because it's the current common usage.

> What do you call a collection of cells?

A battery. My 9 volt battery contains a collection of cells. Likewise my
car battery. Current usage...

> A gallery of cells such as celery?

That may be the usage someday, you never know... 8-O

> Drivel: One mouse, two mice. One house, two hice?

One Usenet post is a post, several Usenet posts are a fence??

Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

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From: jef...@cruzio.com (Jeff Liebermann)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
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 by: Jeff Liebermann - Fri, 6 May 2022 23:16 UTC

On Fri, 6 May 2022 15:42:02 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 5/6/2022 2:53 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>> "Where does it say that on the URL you mentioned? All I find is:
>> To achieve a reliable voltage signature, the charge rate must be 0.5C
>> and higher. Slower charging produces a less defined voltage drop,
>> especially if the cells are mismatched in which case each cell reaches
>> full charge at a different time point."

>"Fast charging improves the charge efficiency. At 1C charge rate, the
>efficiency of a standard NiCd is 91 percent and the charge time is about
>an hour (66 minutes at 91 percent). On a slow charger, the efficiency
>drops to 71 percent, prolonging the charge time to about 14 hours at 0.1C."

Oops. I missed that part. However, it's still wrong. 1C is a fast
charge for a NiCD. 0.1C is a normal charge rate. 0.05C to 0.1C is a
trickle charge:
<https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/electronic_components/battery-technology/nicad-nicd-nickel-cadmium-recharging.php>
"Normally cells are charged at a rate of around C/10."

C/10 is maintained to where the NiCd is charged to about 70% SOC:
"It is found that during the first stage of charging, up to about 70%
of full charge, the charging process is nearly 100% efficient. After
this it falls."

So, C/10 is considered a normal charge.

"It is found that a fast charge for NiCd cells also improves charge
efficiency. At a 1C charge rate, the overall charge efficiency of a
standard NiCd is about 90%"

So, 1C is considered a fast charge.

That leaves a trickle charge:
"This trickle charge can be achieved safely by applying a small
current to the cell or cells at a level between about 0.05C and 0.1C."

So, 0.05C and 0.1C are considered a trickle.

Incidentally, my NiCd fast charge testing was mostly done at 10C with
ocassional excursions up to 25C. Using 800ma-hr AA NiCd cells, 25C is
20Amps charge current.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

<060520222003083928%nospam@nospam.invalid>

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 by: nospam - Sat, 7 May 2022 00:03 UTC

In article <t53ssf$ogt$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> For wired charging, there is no downside to proper fast charging that
> charges at a higher rate when the battery is very discharged then
> reducing the charge rate as the battery fills.

false.

<https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/12/211202153918.htm>
When a battery is charged too quickly, however, intercalation
becomes a trickier business. Instead of smoothly getting into the
graphite, the lithium ions tend to aggregate on top of the anode's
surface, resulting in a "plating" effect that can cause terminal
damage -- no pun intended -- to a battery.
....
"The faster we charge our battery, the more atomically disordered
the anode will become, which will ultimately prevent the lithium ions
from being able to move back and forth," Abraham said. "The key
is to find ways to either prevent this loss of organization or to
somehow modify the graphite particles so that the lithium ions can
intercalate more efficiently."

<https://www.imeche.org/news/news-article/fast-charging-can-damage-elect
ric-car-batteries-in-just-25-cycles>
Fast-charging of electric batteries can ruin their capacity after
just 25 charges, researchers have said, after they ran experiments
on batteries used in some popular electric cars.

....

> Here's why. Fast-charging batteries work in two phases. The first phase
> applies a blast of voltage to the empty or nearly empty battery. This
> gives you that blazing charge of from 50% to 70% in the first 10, 15 or
> 30 minutes. That's because during the first phase of charging, batteries
> can absorb a charge quickly without major negative effects on their
> long-term health."

'without major negative effects' is very different than *no* negative
effects.

Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

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 by: nospam - Sat, 7 May 2022 00:03 UTC

In article <9t2b7hpv47g0flnoi6uu0uemaupkfkil47@4ax.com>, Jeff
Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

> >To add more to that suggestion, personally I install only apps that are GSF
> >free and that don't contain ads and which have high'ish ratings & installs.
>
> What's a GSF? All I could find was Golden State Foods.

google services framework

Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

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 by: nospam - Sat, 7 May 2022 00:03 UTC

In article <er4b7hpdsec422dmgdb3994ft1fplp1n1n@4ax.com>, Jeff
Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 6 May 2022 10:07:35 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
> wrote:
> >If the choice is only between a) "fast charge at high-current to 100%
> >capacity" versus b) slow-charge at low current to 100% capacity" then
> >yes, slow charging is better, but that's not how modern smart phones, or
> >modern electric vehicles, with lithium-based batteries actually are charged.
>
> True. Again, we started this discussion with single LiIon cells as
> found in smartphones. It would be nice if your could limit the
> discussion to this arrangement.

he's forever moving the goalposts.

> Note that the common dictionary definition of battery is "consisting
> of one or more cells". It wasn't always like that, but since
> literally everyone uses battery when they should be using call, the
> official definition was mutilated to accommodate an expanded
> definition.

yep. language evolves.

Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

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 by: nospam - Sat, 7 May 2022 00:03 UTC

In article <t53pdq$s0q$1@dont-email.me>, Wade Garrett <Wade@cooler.net>
wrote:

> And it warms even more if I also rest it on the sticky pad I sometimes
> keep on the car's charge pad to prevent the phone from sliding when
> turning corners.

slow down!

Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

<16eca9c62c51da58$1$525252$6edd646a@news.thecubenet.com>

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 by: Clifford Heath - Sat, 7 May 2022 00:03 UTC

On 7/5/22 7:26 am, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 6 May 2022 17:44:09 +0100, Andy Burnelli <spam@nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>
>>> Oops. Wrong app. The one I was using is:
>>> <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.liuzh.deviceinfo>
>
>> To add more to that suggestion, personally I install only apps that are GSF
>> free and that don't contain ads and which have high'ish ratings & installs.
>
> What's a GSF? All I could find was Golden State Foods.

GNU Software Foundation perhaps?

Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

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 by: John McGaw - Sat, 7 May 2022 00:39 UTC

On 5/6/2022 5:14 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
snip...
>> Interesting to see it born out in practice, but it is a known fact. Fast
>> charging heats up the battery and heat damages the battery, therefore fast
>> charging will reduce the battery life.
>
> It would be nice if when pluging the charger the phone asked whether we
> want a fast or a slow charge.
>
>

Actually, the "adaptive charging" option seems to do that but without
asking. Place the phone on the wireless stand after the phone knows that it
is "sleepy time" and it will automatically restrict the charge rate to what
is needed to have 100% at the next alarm time. It has seemed to work fine
for me on my Pixel 6 Pro, anyway. Of course you have to switch the option
on in settings before it will know to do that. I'm guessing that this will
work with plugged-in charging but I have never really tried and I almost
never used wired charging except when in the car on a long road trip.

--
Noli sinere pessimi nequissimique te tristificare!

Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

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 by: sms - Sat, 7 May 2022 01:03 UTC

On 5/6/2022 5:39 PM, John McGaw wrote:
> On 5/6/2022 5:14 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> snip...
>>> Interesting to see it born out in practice, but it is a known fact. Fast
>>> charging heats up the battery and heat damages the battery, therefore
>>> fast
>>> charging will reduce the battery life.
>>
>> It would be nice if when pluging the charger the phone asked whether
>> we want a fast or a slow charge.
>>
>>
>
> Actually, the "adaptive charging" option seems to do that but without
> asking. Place the phone on the wireless stand after the phone knows that
> it is "sleepy time" and it will automatically restrict the charge rate
> to what is needed to have 100% at the next alarm time. It has seemed to
> work fine for me on my Pixel 6 Pro, anyway. Of course you have to switch
> the option on in settings before it will know to do that. I'm guessing
> that this will work with plugged-in charging but I have never really
> tried and I almost never used wired charging except when in the car on a
> long road trip.

There's no reason to manually select slow charge or fast charge on
recent vintage iPhones or Android phones. The phone automatically sets
the charge rate based on the charge level of the battery. There's no
down-side to fast charging a battery that has a low amount of charge and
then having the charger reduce the power as the battery level increases.

If someone really wants to charge as slow as possible, with a wired
charger, you can use a data blocker and the charger will be unable to
communicate with the phone and will default to the lowest charge rate,
i.e. <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B082WDHS22> or
<https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00T0DW3F8>. For a wireless charger, use one
that plugs into a USB-A power adapter and ensure that you're using only
a 2.5 watt or 5 watt power adapter.

Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

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 by: nospam - Sat, 7 May 2022 01:12 UTC

In article <t54ghq$vhp$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> If someone really wants to charge as slow as possible, with a wired
> charger, you can use a data blocker and the charger will be unable to
> communicate with the phone and will default to the lowest charge rate,

which will be extremely slow and might even be insufficient to overcome
idle demands of the device because it will be 5V@100ma, or 1/2 watt,
assuming it works at all, since such adapters are non-compliant with
the usb spec.

a better and more practical solution is use a 5w/1a charger, which most
people have.

Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

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 by: Andy Burnelli - Sat, 7 May 2022 02:49 UTC

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

>>To add more to that suggestion, personally I install only apps that are GSF
>>free and that don't contain ads and which have high'ish ratings & installs.
>
> What's a GSF? All I could find was Golden State Foods.

It's worse than that, but just as prevalent in apps you don't want it in.
Can you handle detail, perhaps with a bit of confusion involved on my part?

It's actually difficult to find a _good_ explanation of GSF for you.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=what+is+android+%22google+services+framework>

But I just made these two graphics for you to illustrate the general idea:
<https://i.postimg.cc/0Q4xmPPR/gsfid01.jpg> How to change GSF ID
<https://i.postimg.cc/HkTxTWLB/gsfid02.jpg> Filter out GSF apps

I'd welcome a better description from someone here than I can find for you.

For example, this sounds innocuous, right?
<https://m.apkpure.com/google-services-framework/com.google.android.gsf>
Google Play services framework is used to update Google apps
and apps from Google Play. This component provides core functionality
like authentication to your Google services, synchronized contacts,
access to all the latest user privacy settings, and higher quality,
lower-powered location based services. Google Play services framework
also enhances your app experience. It speeds up offline searches,
provides more immersive maps, and improves gaming experiences.
Apps may not work if you uninstall Google Play services framework."

This is a completely _different_ description, isn't it, of what GSF is?
<https://www.technologitouch.com/tech-tips/what-is-google-services-framework/>
"The Google Services Framework For Android is the foundational program
for Android smartphones. This application is in charge of all of the
operating system's services. By utilizing the application's features,
you will be able to execute any application loaded on your devices
without difficulty. You may experience issues with your device's
operation while using it."

Here's a stackexchange question on it, but even there, they gloss over what
GSF is and concentrate only on what Google Play Services is instead.
*What is Google Play Services & Google Services Framework (gapps)?*
<https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/216176/what-is-the-exact-functionality-of-google-play-services-google-services-framew>

If you can find a good description of GSF, I'll be all ears, trust me,
where the _simplest_ way I can explain what I think it is - is that it's a
set of APIs from our good old trustworthy friends at Google that many apps
can link to so that they don't have to write calls for stuff that Google
provides for them.

That should make you feel real confident in using apps that use it!
Luckily, the FOSS google play store clients clearly list those apps
as you can see in this snapshot I made moments ago of my Android phone.
<https://i.postimg.cc/HkTxTWLB/gsfid02.jpg> Filter out GSF apps

The problem is that GSF is sneaky too, since it comes from you know who.
<https://i.postimg.cc/X7ZspnsG/gsfid01.jpg> I just changed my GSF ID

Personally I prefer to stay away from "SDKs" that other apps link to that
our good old friend Google provides to them, presumably for a reason.

> My criteria for apps is no adds and the ability to do at least the one
> thing that I need very well. I don't care about the rest.

I have so many APKs that I install on so many phones that I keep an archive
<https://i.postimg.cc/bN875p8b/apk01.jpg> 1600 APKs extracted onto Windows

All the FOSS google play store clients have filters for GSF as shown here.
<https://i.postimg.cc/W1BwgSpm/aurora14.jpg> Filter out GSF apps

You'd be hard pressed to find better apps than the ones I use, e.g.,
say you wanted to know whether your phone was connecting to your unique
femtocell tower ID or you needed to know what your neighbor's Wi-Fi signal
strength is, nicely graphed along with yours with the typical channel
graph, then I'd _start_ with finding a free, ad free, google free, gsf
free, app with usually a 4+ rating and, oh, over a million installations,
and then, if none show up, you slowly open your search criteria...

Most of my apps are FOSS but there isn't a switch specifically for that.
For example this ia one of the best FOSS application managers for Android.
<https://github.com/MuntashirAkon/AppManager>

You can pages upon pages of information for any one given app with that.
<https://i.postimg.cc/mgFkM1bs/apk05.jpg> Sort by install or last update

Such as Activities, Services, installation date, updates, services,
receivers, providers, app ops, permissions, trackers, versions, features,
configuration, signatures, shared libs, etc.
<https://i.postimg.cc/Gt53TdVt/apk06.jpg> View every activity in each app

These app managers are useful when you search by installed or updated dates
<https://i.postimg.cc/MZPpFmHw/apk07.jpg> List by install or update date

And, of course, they give you an idea of the number of trackers in each app
<https://i.postimg.cc/L5gnX3GS/linktopc07.jpg> List the trackers

What you're looking for is the best app which is also the least intrusive,
which, let's be clear, probably takes time to get to know the app well.
<https://i.postimg.cc/Gmj8xDYc/intent05.jpg> Call apps by intent

But you have to start by finding the best starting point for any
functionality, so, for example, for Wi-Fi/Cellular debuggers, start with
free ad free google free gsf free highly rated often downloaded apps.

An example is this wi-fi debugger which I personally find rather useful.
*Cellular-Z*, by JerseyHo
Free, ad free, google free, gsf free, 4+ rating, 100K+ installs
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=make.more.r2d2.cellular_z>
<https://i.postimg.cc/CKFhMZtS/signal03.jpg> Cellular-Z output info

While that's not foolproof of course, it's far better than wading thru this
<https://play.google.com/store/search?q=graph%20wi-fi%20signal%20strength&c=apps>
<https://i.postimg.cc/fLC4zcm6/wifi04.jpg> Many signal strength apps

>>Although for some reason, moving from Android 11 to 12 removed hundreds!
>
> Ummm... How many apps do you have on your Android phone? See:
> Settings -> Apps and Notifications
> and look for something like "See all 202 apps". Mine has 202 apps,
> which I consider to be an overdose.

That doesn't really tell you the truth as you can install an app which
won't show up in that list, nor will it show up in the Google Play Update
list (and each of the specific update apps also gives different numbers).
<https://i.postimg.cc/j2g26zws/apk03.jpg> Google Play Store update apks

I have plenty of tools that can tell me how many "packages" are installed.
<https://i.postimg.cc/02jbkHFr/apk04.jpg> Sort & display apps how you like

You can sort and view your apps by many methods to keep track of them all.
<https://i.postimg.cc/Jhxs4VrD/apk08.jpg> Sort by all sorts of criteria

Usually around 700 "packages" but we covered this question in gory detail
in the past on the Android newsgroup where you'd actually be hard pressed
to get _two_ of the many application managers to give the same answer each.
<https://i.postimg.cc/02jbkHFr/apk04.jpg> Sort & display apps how you like

Since every app installed on Android up until recently was packaged as an
APK, it is easy to _not delete_ the APK after you install each & every app.
<https://i.postimg.cc/8zBjX5kJ/aurora09.jpg> Count your archived APKs

>> <https://i.postimg.cc/FHJ16nvF/update01.jpg> Android 11->12 screwed up!
>
> I'm still on Android 11 and am now at end of life with the last
> security update on Apr 22, 2022.
> <https://motorola-global-portal.custhelp.com/app/software-security-page/g_id/6806#gs=eyJndWlkZUlEIjo2ODA2LCJxdWVzdGlvbklEIjo0LCJyZXNwb25zZUlEIjoyMSwiZ3VpZGVTZXNzaW9uIjoiSjFJZ2huRXAiLCJzZXNzaW9uSUQiOiJKMUlnaG5FcCJ9>
> That's a 2 year useful life from date of Apr 2020 release. Part of
> the problem is that Motorola has too many models to maintain:
> "Evolution of Motorola Moto G 2013 - 2021"
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8d2tUYjn0U>

We have had _many_ discussions on the Android newsgroup about what the
update life is for an Android phone, and, well, you seem to be the type who
can handle detail, and detail is what you're going to need to handle if you
ever want to figure out what the various versions are for Android, and what
their actual EOL dates are for support, given there are _many_ levels!
*How long does GOOGLE say they'll update the two dozen core modules in project mainline?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/_ZUiLVtLbsg/>

Suffice to summarize there are at least the following main Android updates,
each with their own update schedule, some of which are completely unknown:
1. User apps (such as your personal APK archive) are often updated forever
2. Key apps (such as the default web browser) are often updated forever
4. Firmware (such as the Qualcomm modem firmware) are updated by Qualcomm
5. Security updates
6. Android version updates (a team effort of google, mfr & carrier)
7. Core modules (such as the two dozen core modules) are updated by Google
8. Those core modules are always donated to the AOSP to maintain forever


Click here to read the complete article
Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

<t54ola$5r1$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 04:22:37 +0100
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Sat, 7 May 2022 03:22 UTC

Clifford Heath wrote:

>> What's a GSF? All I could find was Golden State Foods.
>
> GNU Software Foundation perhaps?

I apologize for not being clear, where I'm not sure exactly what Google
Services Framework is other than it's a set of APIs that our good friend
Google provides so that apps can link in all sorts of stuff from Google.

If that alone doesn't make you wonder what's inside of it, bear in mind
there's also a (loosely? tightly?) associated _permanent_ unique GSF_ID.

Luckily, after some effort, I figured out a way, using Windows FOSS tools,
to replace the GSF ID without too badly affecting the operating system.
<https://i.postimg.cc/0Q4xmPPR/gsfid01.jpg> I changed the permanent GSF_ID

The main point though is that all the FOSS google play store clients have
an option to filter out the GSF ID (in addition to plenty of other
options), none of which will be in the google play store client itself.
<https://i.postimg.cc/YStB48LH/gsfid03.jpg> Filter out GSF apps
--
Usenet is a world-wide team sport where purposefully helpful kind-hearted
adults help each other and learn by pooling our individual capabilities.

Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

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Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Sat, 7 May 2022 03:42 UTC

nospam wrote:

> In article <9t2b7hpv47g0flnoi6uu0uemaupkfkil47@4ax.com>, Jeff
> Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>
>>>To add more to that suggestion, personally I install only apps that are GSF
>>>free and that don't contain ads and which have high'ish ratings & installs.
>>
>> What's a GSF? All I could find was Golden State Foods.
>
> google services framework

You were the first person to tell me about GSF years ago, which I
appreciate since you said (rightly so) that it's getting harder over time
to find apps that don't incorporate these Google calls into their code.

I'm not ashamed to admit I don't know how exactly the GSF code deals with
the supposedly permanent unique GSF ID but that may be why my Android 11 to
Android 12 upgrade deleted hundreds of apps (perhaps they're linked to the
old GSF ID.. dunno... it's too many to be simply that as I only figured out
how to change the GSF_ID recently).

BTW, if others are interested in looking at your permanent unique GSF ID,
this is the app I used to make sure that my experiments actually changed it
*Device ID* by Evozi
Free, ad free, Google free, GSF free, rated 4.5, 1M+ installs
<https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.evozi.deviceid>

Note as someone already noted, many apps have the same names in the repos
<https://play.google.com/store/search?q=device+id>

Without filters in the FOSS Google Play Store clients, I don't know how
anyone can find decent apps given they frequently use similar names, icons,
and descriptions - and yet - many have ads and many incorporate GSF calls.
<https://auroraoss.com/>
--
Usenet is a team sport where each person adds unique value as they see fit.

Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

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Newsgroups: comp.mobile.android,misc.phone.mobile.iphone,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Sat, 7 May 2022 04:31 UTC

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> No, it's not. I guess I should be more specific. I would like to
> know why you find it necessary to test a LiIon cell in a charge range
> of zero to 20%, where literally every recommendation by the
> manufacturers declare that to be an RBI (really bad idea)?

I _know_ it's a really bad idea, which is _why_ I want to see what happens.

I got a handful of these phones for free, so I have _plenty_ to work with.
It's just a phone. Phones are a dime a dozen. They're a commodity.

This is a Samsung Galaxy A32-5G, which, even if I paid for it, is cheap.

People do drop tests all the time, don't they?
That's a really bad idea too. :)

> Looks that
> specs for any BMS (battery management system) found inside most LiIon
> battery packs. There is a feature that literally disconnects the cell
> if the terminal voltage goes below some value which usually works out
> to about 20% charge. Maybe this will help you understand the problem
> you're creating for yourself:
> "Lithium Ion Cell Operating Window"
> <https://www.mpoweruk.com/lithium_failures.htm>
> Notice that the "operating area" is between 20% and 90% SOC.

I designed microcontroller-based batter chargers as experimental tools back
in the 80's in graduate school but it has been a long time since then.

I've probably forgotten more than I learned by then, but my main point is
that I consider all smartphones merely a tool to play with to learn about.

If you don't do destructive testing, you won't learn as much as if you do.
(As an aside, you should see the destructive testing I did on the iPad!)

I take risks with the mobile devices all the time in order to learn more.

For example, I recently figured out a way to change my supposedly permanent
supposedly unique Google-supplied GSF ID, which may be the reason that
the Android 11 to Android 12 update on my Samsung deleted hundreds of apps.
*Have you ever tried to CHANGE your unique GSF ID on your Android device?*
<https://groups.google.com/g/comp.mobile.android/c/Ixl2uMSLADc>

>>So it's not just me who is curious what happens in the real world.
>
> Yes, but you are not the entire real world. Your currently
> undisclosed operating criteria is not the same as every user and
> certainly not the same as the cell phone manufacturer. The
> manufacturer wants big numbers because big number sell phones.
> Whatever it takes to produce big numbers balanced by cost and safety
> issues. Big numbers are rather useless if the phone catches fire in
> the owners pocket. So, the game of battery specmanship degenerates
> into squeezing as many watt-hours out of the battery as possible by
> any means deemed economical (and maybe reliable). Do it wrong, and
> you have a situation like Apple, where the phone had to be slowed down
> to produce a reasonable runtime as the battery aged. At that point,
> the user gets involved and tries to squeeze out as much power as
> possible. However, they can't because the manufacturer has already
> done that with a complexicated BMS algorithm. So the user looks to
> see what can be gained by breaking the safety rules. Good luck. If
> you are actually able to run the phone at extremely low SOC, then the
> manufacturer has screwed up and is selling an unsafe phone, battery,
> or both. What phone and battery are you using and I'll be sure to
> blacklist it.

It's the Samsung Galaxy A32-5G and it's the T-Mobile model SM A326U.

You'll see some of my experiments on the XDA Developers' forum:
<https://forum.xda-developers.com/f/samsung-galaxy-a32-5g.12145/>

>>I've always been curious about the best way to do almost any thing.
>>And destructive testing is a fantastic way to figure out what really
>>happens in the real world under real world conditions, even as you can't
>>hope to run a "consumers report" style full-fledged scientific
>>investigation with basic home equipment.
>
> Please note my domain name, LearnByDestroying.com. The intent is
> slightly different from yours. It's my contention that one does not
> understand how something works without first breaking it, and
> subsequently fixing it. Destructive testing, without subsequent
> understanding (and enlightenment) is useless.

Like you appear to do, I try to learn why things fail when they fail.

For my BMW, a lot of parts break, where I take them apart to find what
caused the failure, whether that's the FSU or the expansion tank.

You can't put that stuff back together, although I did try to reseat the
myriad "angel hair" wires inside the ABS control module, which are just
impossible to do without specialized machines.

Having said that, my cars are decades old where I fix everything I can,
even to the point of mounting and balancing my own tires at home, so if I
_can_ fix it after taking it apart, I will fix it after taking it apart.
<https://i.postimg.cc/zvvyL2tq/mount24.jpg> Analyze the wear
<https://i.postimg.cc/X7hcV3ps/mount26.jpg> Keep close track of wear
<https://i.postimg.cc/63Kc80x9/mount29.jpg> Watch wear over time
<https://i.postimg.cc/wTf1xnzJ/mount36.jpg> Inspect root causes
<https://i.postimg.cc/g004XCLW/mount37.jpg> Run experiments
<https://i.postimg.cc/g004XCLW/mount37.jpg> Gather more data
<https://i.postimg.cc/G3HWPtQg/mount39.jpg> Test your assumptions
<https://i.postimg.cc/8zVxVHVx/mount40.jpg> ID engineering principles
<https://i.postimg.cc/YqHVb5gY/mount33.jpg> Fix root cause
<https://i.postimg.cc/DwnjgJY3/mount08.jpg> Buy a new tire
<https://i.postimg.cc/FKfFwJ25/mount48.jpg> Break the bead
<https://i.postimg.cc/g004XCLW/mount37.jpg> Replace the valve
<https://i.postimg.cc/WzZW9MvT/mount07.jpg> Mount the tire
<https://i.postimg.cc/28JK2bFB/mount58.jpg> Balance the wheel
<https://i.postimg.cc/0NGXktgp/mount59.jpg> Recycle the carcass

Bear in mind it's difficult to find out why some wear patterns happen
simply because they are on perfectly well aligned vehicles sometimes.
<https://www.quora.com/When-turning-I-see-there-is-a-plus-camber-in-a-vehicle-Why>

>>Still... I try to learn... and destructive testing is part of learning.
>
> It's a tiny part but admittedly the fun part. It's lots of fun to
> blow things up. It's less fun, but more educational to understand how
> the device you just destroyed functions. When you destroy something
> (like your phone battery), do you take or record measurements? Do you
> record a video for an instant replay? Have you worked out in advance
> what you expect to happen? Do you look for anomalies? Do you own a
> data logger? How would blowing up a cell phone battery demonstrate
> anything if you don't know at what voltage (or SOC) and temperature it
> blew up? Did you put a plastic bag over the phone to capture any
> gasses (and flying glass) produced? Do you have a new battery or
> phone available for comparisons? Without these, all you've "learned"
> is how to blow up a battery or phone.

I can't disagree with anything you've said as I run experiments all day
every day, some of which are detailed (like those tire experiments) and
others aren't as detailed (as my phone battery experiments are).

>>When I was a kid, my dad kept a box of old "stuff" for me to take apart.
>
> Hint: I still act like I'm kid. I even take things apart BEFORE I
> try operating them.

The one thing really convenient about destructive autopsies is you don't
have to put anything back together. You just put it in the recycling bin.

>>Why does anyone run any experiment?
>
> Usually because they are suspicious of the established theories of
> operation and have reason to suspect that parts of the theories are
> wrong or badly understood.

Notice the tire experiments above where there is precious little
information on the Internet why all the cars that are perfectly aligned in
any given twisty road area wear the tires the exact same abnormal way.

Take a look at the Scotty Kilmer video below, and note particularly that
the photos I've been posting (which I've posted for years) are the _same_
as in Scotty Kilmer's videos (just look and you'll recognize my pictures!).
<https://youtu.be/i7alzjqmPQo>

This is a shot he took of my BMW tires, for example, with wear lined up:
<https://i.postimg.cc/HngnZR6h/scottykilmer.jpg> He stole my images! :)
--
I find it a testament to my thoroughness that Scotty Kilmer stole my photos
(which clearly are the same photos as I've been posting here all along).

Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

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From: scharf.s...@geemail.com (sms)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently -
checking re-charge times
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 07:02:01 -0700
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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 by: sms - Sat, 7 May 2022 14:02 UTC

On 5/6/2022 10:07 AM, sms wrote:

<snip>

> If the choice is only between a) "fast charge at high-current to 100%
> capacity" versus b) slow-charge at low current to 100% capacity" then
> yes, slow charging is better, but that's not how modern smart phones, or
> modern electric vehicles, with lithium-based batteries actually are
> charged.

One other thing, which could be good or bad depending on your point of
view, is that for iPhones that are capable of fast charging, if you turn
the phone off _after_ the phone is plugged into a USB-C PC charger. then
the charge rate goes down (on the iPhone, if the phone is off and a
charger is plugged in then the phone automatically turns on so you must
turn it off _after_ the charger is plugged in).

On my iPhone, with the phone on the battery begins charging at around
18W (9V@2a) then falls to about 10W (9V@1.15A) as the battery charges;
with the phone off, it charges at about 10W (5.1V@2A) then falls to
about 5.5W (5.1@1.08A).

With a USB-C PD charger, it takes _longer_ to charge an iPhone is the
power is off since the voltage never goes above the nominal 5V, yet
current is always limited to a nominal 2A. This is because the PMIC
inside the iPhone can't negotiate the USB-C PD charge rate when the
phone is off. On an Android phone, at least phones with Qualcomm
Snapdragon chipsets, QC charge rates are unaffected by the phone being
on or off.

Also, on the iPhone, unlike on Android devices, there is no indication
as to whether or not the phone is fast charging. Someone could be using
a junky, USB-C to Lightning cable, that they don't realize does not
support fast charging, but think that their phone is fast charging. You
need to plug in a USB-C to USB-C power meter between the USB-C PD
charger and the iPhone to see the charge rate.

Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

<070520221018531096%nospam@nospam.invalid>

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From: nos...@nospam.invalid (nospam)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times
Date: Sat, 07 May 2022 10:18:53 -0400
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 by: nospam - Sat, 7 May 2022 14:18 UTC

In article <t55u4r$8u3$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

> Also, on the iPhone, unlike on Android devices, there is no indication
> as to whether or not the phone is fast charging. Someone could be using
> a junky, USB-C to Lightning cable, that they don't realize does not
> support fast charging, but think that their phone is fast charging.

that is false. it's very easy to tell if it's fast charging.

> You
> need to plug in a USB-C to USB-C power meter between the USB-C PD
> charger and the iPhone to see the charge rate.

there is no such need.

Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times

<t560il$r56$1@dont-email.me>

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Path: i2pn2.org!i2pn.org!eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ithink...@gmail.com (Chris)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,comp.mobile.android,sci.electronics.repair
Subject: Re: Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently
- checking re-charge times
Date: Sat, 7 May 2022 14:43:34 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Chris - Sat, 7 May 2022 14:43 UTC

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>
> Drivel:
> One mouse, two mice.
> One house, two hice?

An upper class english accent pronounces a house as "hice". English is a
bastard language with so many accents and vernaculars that it's pointless
arguing over what is "correct".

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