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tech / rec.photo.digital / Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happy

SubjectAuthor
* "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happyRichA
`* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happyAlan Browne
 `* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happyWhisky-dave
  +* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happyRichA
  |`- Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happynospam
  `* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happyAlan Browne
   +* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happyAlfred Molon
   |`* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happynospam
   | `* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happyAlan Browne
   |  `* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happynospam
   |   +* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happyBill W
   |   |`- Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happynospam
   |   `* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happyAlan Browne
   |    `* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happynospam
   |     +* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happyAlan Browne
   |     |`* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happynospam
   |     | `* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happyAlan Browne
   |     |  `* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happynospam
   |     |   `* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happyAlan Browne
   |     |    `* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happynospam
   |     |     `* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happyAlan Browne
   |     |      `* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happynospam
   |     |       `* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happyAlan Browne
   |     |        `- Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happynospam
   |     `- Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happyAlan Browne
   +* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happyRichA
   |+- Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happynospam
   |`* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happyAlan Browne
   | `* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happyRichA
   |  `* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happynospam
   |   `* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happyRichA
   |    +- Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happynospam
   |    `* Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happySavageduck
   |     `- Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happynospam
   `- Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happyWhisky-dave

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Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happy

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https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=9985&group=rec.photo.digital#9985

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Subject: Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happy
Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital
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From: bitbuc...@blackhole.com (Alan Browne)
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Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 15:25:11 -0400
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 by: Alan Browne - Sun, 25 Jul 2021 19:25 UTC

On 2021-07-24 21:42, nospam wrote:
> In article <xl_KI.48842$Nz.21751@fx22.iad>, Alan Browne
> <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> again, benchmarks show a dramatic difference using less memory. your
>>>>> claim of 0 performance difference is false.
>>>>
>>>> You'd have to benchmark the memory i/o, not application performance.
>>>> Application performance is simply the unified architecture for the
>>>> reasons above.
>>>
>>> unless you do nothing but run benchmarks all day, memory benchmarks are
>>> not particularly interesting.
>>>
>>> the *only* metrics that matter is real world performance for the apps
>>> someone actually uses, which will vary depending on what that someone
>>> is doing.
>>>
>>> some of the more demanding tasks, such as rendering video and compiling
>>> apps, are comparable in speed and in some cases faster than even a mac
>>> pro, and that's with a 'paltry' 16 gig (or 8 gig in some cases).
>>>
>>> your claim of '0 performance difference' is not supported by people who
>>> actually own and use apple silicon macs.
>>
>> You're going out of your way to distort things.
>
> nope. i'm going out of my way to clarify things, which is apparently a
> waste of time since you refuse to learn anything.

Face a mirror when you say that. Unified is about the CPU using memory
directly for processing and i/o. Avoid moving data for no reason.

>
>> Unified memory's benefits do not come from the physical location of the
>> memory. They come from not needing to move data because it is well
>> integrated by the CPU to be where it is needed for both processing and
>> i/o. Impossible to do with, eg, intel.
>
> the fact is that m1 is faster using less memory, due to unified and
> high bandwidth (due to shorter distance).

Unified is about avoiding moving data around since the CPU locates i/o
functions access that memory. So avoiding these moves saves tremendous
amounts of time and that is where the speed comes from. Not the speed
of the CPU or memory but by the mere fact that there is no speed cost to
not moving data!

>
> your claim of '0 performance difference' is false.

I never said the system performance was 0 difference only that
configuring it as slotted or soldered to the PCB makes no difference.

> stop reading spec sheets and try actually using one.

I actually listened to the Apple presentation which makes clear the
speed advantage is by using the same memory without moving data. That
is the essence of unified.

Done.

--
"...there are many humorous things in this world; among them the white
man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages."
-Samuel Clemens

Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happy

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Subject: Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happy
Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital
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From: bitbuc...@blackhole.com (Alan Browne)
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 by: Alan Browne - Sun, 25 Jul 2021 19:26 UTC

On 2021-07-24 21:51, RichA wrote:

>
> Apple: 43% profit margins on sales. Most other companies? Half that.

You're confusing margin with profit.

But yes, Apple are tremendously profitable because they deliver superbly
designed and integrated products.

--
"...there are many humorous things in this world; among them the white
man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages."
-Samuel Clemens

Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happy

<250720212342402696%nospam@nospam.invalid>

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Subject: Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happy
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2021 23:42:40 -0400
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 by: nospam - Mon, 26 Jul 2021 03:42 UTC

In article <rUiLI.28786$bR5.14333@fx44.iad>, Alan Browne
<bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

> > the fact is that m1 is faster using less memory, due to unified and
> > high bandwidth (due to shorter distance).
>
> Unified is about avoiding moving data around since the CPU locates i/o
> functions access that memory. So avoiding these moves saves tremendous
> amounts of time and that is where the speed comes from. Not the speed
> of the CPU or memory but by the mere fact that there is no speed cost to
> not moving data!

that's one part of it.

you're ignoring the other part, high bandwidth.

> > your claim of '0 performance difference' is false.
>
> I never said the system performance was 0 difference only that
> configuring it as slotted or soldered to the PCB makes no difference.

that's wrong. it does.

> > stop reading spec sheets and try actually using one.
>
> I actually listened to the Apple presentation which makes clear the
> speed advantage is by using the same memory without moving data. That
> is the essence of unified.

in other words, you haven't used one.

Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happy

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Subject: Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happy
From: rander3...@gmail.com (RichA)
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 by: RichA - Tue, 27 Jul 2021 04:57 UTC

On Sunday, 25 July 2021 at 15:26:53 UTC-4, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2021-07-24 21:51, RichA wrote:
>
> >
> > Apple: 43% profit margins on sales. Most other companies? Half that.
> You're confusing margin with profit.
>
> But yes, Apple are tremendously profitable because they deliver superbly
> designed and integrated products.
> --
> "...there are many humorous things in this world; among them the white
> man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages."
> -Samuel Clemens

Still, the initiative might be a good thing. Had a module go in a car, $400 plus labour. Asked if I could have the old one. Found out it was a $.25 diode in it that burned out. Friend had his house A.C. go two days ago. $3000. Wire had broken and shorted out the compressor. Could have been re-built for a lot less, wire could have had better jacketing, like teflon. There are myriad examples of how companies build things to fail and why they don't let people fix things.

Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happy

<270720210104265450%nospam@nospam.invalid>

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Subject: Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happy
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2021 01:04:26 -0400
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 by: nospam - Tue, 27 Jul 2021 05:04 UTC

In article <c4ab5f04-e486-44ef-9c6a-3abb34f709e5n@googlegroups.com>,
RichA <rander3128@gmail.com> wrote:

> Still, the initiative might be a good thing. Had a module go in a car, $400
> plus labour. Asked if I could have the old one. Found out it was a $.25
> diode in it that burned out.

get the parts at a junkyard and replace it yourself.

> Friend had his house A.C. go two days ago.
> $3000. Wire had broken and shorted out the compressor. Could have been
> re-built for a lot less, wire could have had better jacketing, like teflon.

then why wasn't it rebuilt?

> There are myriad examples of how companies build things to fail and
> why they don't let people fix things.

nonsense. companies don't build things to fail because they'll lose out
to their competition that builds things to last.

Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happy

<248b9402-3310-497c-b863-c2089bcbeeb6n@googlegroups.com>

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Subject: Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happy
From: rander3...@gmail.com (RichA)
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 by: RichA - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 22:33 UTC

On Tuesday, 27 July 2021 at 01:04:32 UTC-4, nospam wrote:
> In article <c4ab5f04-e486-44ef...@googlegroups.com>,
> RichA <rande...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Still, the initiative might be a good thing. Had a module go in a car, $400
> > plus labour. Asked if I could have the old one. Found out it was a $.25
> > diode in it that burned out.
> get the parts at a junkyard and replace it yourself.
> > Friend had his house A.C. go two days ago.
> > $3000. Wire had broken and shorted out the compressor. Could have been
> > re-built for a lot less, wire could have had better jacketing, like teflon.
> then why wasn't it rebuilt?
> > There are myriad examples of how companies build things to fail and
> > why they don't let people fix things.
> nonsense. companies don't build things to fail because they'll lose out
> to their competition that builds things to last.

Cars are built for the California market which is why they rust in the north.

Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happy

<290720211840544346%nospam@nospam.invalid>

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 by: nospam - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 22:40 UTC

In article <248b9402-3310-497c-b863-c2089bcbeeb6n@googlegroups.com>,
RichA <rander3128@gmail.com> wrote:

> Cars are built for the California market which is why they rust in the north.

nope.

Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happy

<0001HW.26B36C2E00A4CB2E7000050D238F@news.giganews.com>

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 by: Savageduck - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 23:07 UTC

On Jul 29, 2021, RichA wrote
(in article<248b9402-3310-497c-b863-c2089bcbeeb6n@googlegroups.com>):

> On Tuesday, 27 July 2021 at 01:04:32 UTC-4, nospam wrote:
> > In article<c4ab5f04-e486-44ef...@googlegroups.com>,
> > RichA <rande...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Still, the initiative might be a good thing. Had a module go in a car, $400
> > > plus labour. Asked if I could have the old one. Found out it was a $.25
> > > diode in it that burned out.
> > get the parts at a junkyard and replace it yourself.
> > > Friend had his house A.C. go two days ago.
> > > $3000. Wire had broken and shorted out the compressor. Could have been
> > > re-built for a lot less, wire could have had better jacketing, like teflon.
> > then why wasn't it rebuilt?
> > > There are myriad examples of how companies build things to fail and
> > > why they don't let people fix things.
> > nonsense. companies don't build things to fail because they'll lose out
> > to their competition that builds things to last.
>
> Cars are built for the California market which is why they rust in the north.

My Mercedes E350 wasn’t built for the California market, and it hasn’t rusted.

Oh wait! I am in California.

--
Regards,
Savageduck

Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happy

<290720211920075478%nospam@nospam.invalid>

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Subject: Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happy
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 by: nospam - Thu, 29 Jul 2021 23:20 UTC

In article <0001HW.26B36C2E00A4CB2E7000050D238F@news.giganews.com>,
Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

> >
> > Cars are built for the California market which is why they rust in the
> > north.
>
> My Mercedes E350 wasn¹t built for the California market, and it hasn¹t rusted.

you smuggled it in?

> Oh wait! I am in California.

nobody's perfect.

Re: "Right to repair" comes to the U.S. Apple likely not happy

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 by: Whisky-dave - Tue, 3 Aug 2021 12:16 UTC

On Friday, 23 July 2021 at 15:59:01 UTC+1, Alan Browne wrote:
> On 2021-07-22 21:12, Whisky-dave wrote:
> > On Thursday, 22 July 2021 at 17:54:08 UTC+1, Alan Browne wrote:
> >> On 2021-07-22 10:39, RichA wrote:
> >>> https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/22/tech/ftc-right-to-repair/index.html
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> Good.
> >
> > be interesting to see how they go about it. Sounds good in theory.
> Would be best if Apple, themselves, would sell parts directly to
> consumers as well as design products to be more easily repairable or
> upgradeable.

But sometimes it's not as efficint or practical to do so.
When you make things small, neat and efficient it's not always easy
to make them repairable by the average person either.


>
> I recently updated the RAM in a Mac Mini. This could have been:
>
> - remove bottom plate
> - remove ram cover/retention clip
> - add / change RAM
> - replace bottom plate.
>
> Instead had to disconnect many connectors, two being difficult to
> re-connect, remove the mother board, various parts to even get close to
> the RAM. Re-assembly was not easy and I damaged the power-on light
> connector a little (more cosmetic than anything...). Took nearly half
> an hour for what takes about 2 minutes on a 2012 iMac...

An iMac is somewhat larger.
I know you can still repair the RAM in the Colossus computer, by the byte
just take out the faulty valve and replace it.
Wonder what size a 'laptop' would be today with a similar repair capability ;-)

>
> Of course if Apple charged competitive prices for RAM in the first place
> I would have ordered it in 32 GB instead of 8.

Me too but as I understand it and have noticed 8-32GB of RAM was quite expensive when
the first Macs capable of taking them came out. But after that 3rd parties produced them on mass
that dropped the price due to supply and demand.
Then the populatirty and vailibilty changes so does price.
I have some 256k from a MacPlus those are very expensive per MB
compared to what is avaible now. But I remmebr when 1MB SIMMS were £100


> --
> "...there are many humorous things in this world; among them the white
> man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages."
> -Samuel Clemens

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