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tech / rec.photo.digital / iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted

SubjectAuthor
* iCloud is NOT end-to-end encryptedHeron
+* Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encryptedCalum
|+* Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encryptedLewis
||`* Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encryptedallspam
|| `* Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encryptedLewis
||  `* Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encryptedallspam
||   `- Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encryptedDavid Brooks
|`* Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encryptedallspam
| `- Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encryptedLewis
+* Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encryptedAlan Browne
|`* Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encryptedHeron
| +* Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encryptedsms
| |`- Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encryptedHeron
| `* Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encryptedAlan Browne
|  `* Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encryptedHeron
|   +* Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encryptednospam
|   |`* Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encryptedHeron
|   | +- Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encryptednospam
|   | `- Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encryptedLewis
|   `* Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encryptedLewis
|    `- Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encryptednospam
`- Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encryptedAndy Burnelli

1
iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted

<sf50r8$1l1j$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: McKeis...@ipanywhere.com (Heron)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,rec.photo.digital,comp.mobile.ipad
Subject: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2021 00:44:24 -0500
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 by: Heron - Fri, 13 Aug 2021 05:44 UTC

What does this sentence tell you about WHY Apple is scanning on your iPhone?

"The scanning is a step toward fully encrypting iCloud."

https://www.reuters.com/technology/exclusive-apples-child-protection-features-spark-concern-within-its-own-ranks-2021-08-12/

Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted

<sf95c8$u0g$1@gioia.aioe.org>

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From: com.gm...@nospam.scottishwildcat (Calum)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,rec.photo.digital,comp.mobile.ipad
Subject: Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 20:26:00 +0100
Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server
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 by: Calum - Sat, 14 Aug 2021 19:26 UTC

Apple have never claimed or pretended that iCloud backups were
end-to-end encrypted. The fact that they aren't was widely discussed as
part of the San Bernardino shooting investigation, for example.

<https://www.theverge.com/2016/2/22/11093798/apple-fbi-encryption-fight-icloud-san-bernardino>

On 13/08/2021 06:44, Heron wrote:
> What does this sentence tell you about WHY Apple is scanning on your
> iPhone?
>
> "The scanning is a step toward fully encrypting iCloud."
>
> https://www.reuters.com/technology/exclusive-apples-child-protection-features-spark-concern-within-its-own-ranks-2021-08-12/
>

Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted

<slrnshgkf1.27p3.g.kreme@m1mini.local>

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From: g.kr...@kreme.dont-email.me (Lewis)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,rec.photo.digital,comp.mobile.ipad
Subject: Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2021 23:29:37 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: Miskatonic U
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 by: Lewis - Sat, 14 Aug 2021 23:29 UTC

In message <sf95c8$u0g$1@gioia.aioe.org> Calum <com.gmail@nospam.scottishwildcat> wrote:
> Apple have never claimed or pretended that iCloud backups were
> end-to-end encrypted.

False. they are absolutely end-to-end encrypted.

> The fact that they aren't was widely discussed as
> part of the San Bernardino shooting investigation, for example.

You do not know what "end to end encryption" means. Don't feel bad, a
lot of people have no idea what this means either.

--
NOTHING IS FINAL. NOTHING IS ABSOLUTE. EXCEPT ME, OF COURSE. SUCH
TINKERING WITH DESTINY COULD MEAN THE DOWNFALL OF THE WORLD.
THERE MUST BE A CHANCE, HOWEVER SMALL. THE LAWYERS OF FATE DEMAND
A LOOPHOLE IN EVERY PROPHECY. --Sourcery

Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted

<sf9l46$j9q$1@dont-email.me>

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Subject: Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted
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 by: allspam - Sat, 14 Aug 2021 23:55 UTC

In article <news:sf95c8$u0g$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Calum
<com.gmail@nospam.scottishwildcat> wrote:
> Apple have never claimed or pretended that iCloud backups were
> end-to-end encrypted.

Actually Apple _does_ pretend to have end-to-end encryption.
But it's a lie only an uneducated fool (like Lewis) could believe.

Nobody lies like Apple lies, particularly about end to end encryption.
What's common is Apple's idiot customers _believe_ all Apple's lies.

These common public lies are a normal part of Apple's business plan:
[https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303]

Here's what Apple says (bear in mind, nobody lies like Apple lies):
"iCloud is built with industry-standard security technologies, employs
strict policies to protect your information, and is leading the industry by
adopting privacy-preserving technologies like end-to-end encryption for your
data."

Sounds good, right?
Look at these lies by Apple (again, nobody lies, like Apple lies):

"iPhone users don't have to worry their private conversations, using
iMessage and Facetime, will be intercepted. We've designed these features so
that bad actors can't listen to these communications, and neither can anyone
at Apple."
[https://oleb.net/2020/icloud-end-to-end-encryption/] [December 10, 2020]

Then read further in that article (which everyone but Savageduck, Lewis,
nospam and Jolly Roger know and understand - but they can't understand).

"What Federighi fails to mention: if you have iCloud Backup enabled, that
last claim (emphasis mine) is not the whole truth. Apple may not be able to
listen in on your conversations, but they can decrypt the messages stored in
your backups, *because data in iCloud backups is not end-to-end encrypted*."

"And it's not just iCloud backups. Here's an incomplete list of data sources
in iCloud that are not end-to-end-encrypted:

iCloud backups
Messages (de facto when iCloud Backup is enabled because the backup
contains a decryption key for the messages)
Photos
Files in iCloud Drive
Notes
Contacts
Reminders
Calendars
Voice memos
Bookmarks (your Safari history and open tabs are end-to-end-encrypted)
Source: Apple, iCloud security overview

In other words, if you use Apple services as intended and recommended by
Apple, a large portion of your most sensitive data is in fact not securely
encrypted. Both Apple and U.S. government agencies (and possibly other
governments?) can access it."

As everyone but Lewis, Jolly Roger, Savageduck & nospam knows......
Nobody can lie like Apple can lie (particularly on end-to-end encryption).

Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted

<sf9qar$fs6$1@dont-email.me>

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Subject: Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted
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 by: allspam - Sun, 15 Aug 2021 01:23 UTC

In article <news:slrnshgkf1.27p3.g.kreme@m1mini.local>, Lewis
<g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>> The fact that they aren't was widely discussed as
>> part of the San Bernardino shooting investigation, for example.
>
> You do not know what "end to end encryption" means.

Funny that everyone _but_ Apple seems to know exactly what it means!

*Why it's time for an end-to-end encryption option for iCloud backups*
https://www.imore.com/securing-icloud-why-its-time-end-end-encryption-option-our-backups

"First things first, we should clear some things up: Apple does encrypt your
iCloud backups. Those backups are protected. The issue is end-to-end
encryption. Your backups are encrypted but they're not end-to-end
encrypted."

Nobody can lie as much as Apple and still have morons like Lewis believe it.
*Where is end-to-end encryption for iCloud?*
https://oleb.net/2020/icloud-end-to-end-encryption/

Apple quote:
"iPhone users don't have to worry their private conversations, using
iMessage and Facetime, will be intercepted. We've designed these features so
that bad actors can't listen to these communications, and neither can anyone
at Apple."

Response in that article above:
"Apple has been using this self-congratulatory tone about their encryption
efforts for years and I find it increasingly disingenuous. What Federighi
fails to mention: if you have iCloud Backup enabled, that last claim
(emphasis mine) is not the whole truth. Apple may not be able to listen in
on your conversations, but they can decrypt the messages stored in your
backups, because data in iCloud backups is not end-to-end encrypted."

Apple paid over a billion dollars in criminal fines and legal restitution in
just one year as public lies are a normal part of Apple's business plan.

*Apple dropped plan for encrypting backups after FBI asked them to*
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-fbi-icloud-exclusive/exclusive-apple-dropped-plan-for-encrypting-backups-after-fbi-complained-sources-idUSKBN1ZK1CT

*Apple abandoned plans to roll out end-to-end encrypted iCloud backups*
*due to pressure from the FBI*

The only people who believe Apple's lies are their own customers.

Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted

<slrnshhoto.20ro.g.kreme@m1mini.local>

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From: g.kr...@kreme.dont-email.me (Lewis)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,rec.photo.digital,comp.mobile.ipad
Subject: Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 09:51:52 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Lewis - Sun, 15 Aug 2021 09:51 UTC

In message <sf9qar$fs6$1@dont-email.me> allspam <allspam@allspam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <news:slrnshgkf1.27p3.g.kreme@m1mini.local>, Lewis
> <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>>> The fact that they aren't was widely discussed as
>>> part of the San Bernardino shooting investigation, for example.
>>
>> You do not know what "end to end encryption" means.

> Funny that everyone _but_ Apple seems to know exactly what it means!

People are very stupid with encryption.

End to end means that the file data is encrypted BETWEEN the two ends.
When I connect to, say, a secure web size the data I type on my screen
is NOT encrypted. When I submit it to the website, it is encrypted for
the transit. The web server decrypts it (otherwise the data would be
useless).

I am one end, the web server is the other. That is "end to end
encryption."

Data you send to iCloud is encrypted when it is sent by a user to
iCloud. That is end to end encryption.

However, iCloud stores the data encrypted and does not decrypt it, at
all, without either a lawful warrant or a arduous recovery process to
prove ownership.

The phrase the tech writers who don't know what they are talking to are
intending is "TNO Encryption" which is what, for example, Backblaze
does. The data is encrypted to the server, stored encrypted, and ONLY
the user has the key. If the key is lost of forgotten, the data is
irrecoverable. If the user dies without sharing the key with someone
else, the data is lost and nothing anyone can do can recover it.

TNO stands for "Trust No One"

Congratulations, you now know more than most so-called tech writers.

--
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Yes, Brain, I think so. But how do we get Twiggy to pose with an
electric goose?"

Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted

<slrnshhp0i.20ro.g.kreme@m1mini.local>

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From: g.kr...@kreme.dont-email.me (Lewis)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,rec.photo.digital,comp.mobile.ipad
Subject: Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 09:53:22 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Lewis - Sun, 15 Aug 2021 09:53 UTC

In message <sf9l46$j9q$1@dont-email.me> allspam <allspam@allspam.invalid> wrote:
> In article <news:sf95c8$u0g$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Calum
> <com.gmail@nospam.scottishwildcat> wrote:
>> Apple have never claimed or pretended that iCloud backups were
>> end-to-end encrypted.

> Actually Apple _does_ pretend to have end-to-end encryption.
> But it's a lie only an uneducated fool (like Lewis) could believe.

I would like to claim my 5£ now, thanks.

--
Reality is not a matter of opinion.

Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted

<sfb2g7$4jb$1@dont-email.me>

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 by: allspam - Sun, 15 Aug 2021 12:49 UTC

In article <news:slrnshhoto.20ro.g.kreme@m1mini.local>, Lewis
<g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
> End to end means that the file data is encrypted BETWEEN the two ends.

iCloud encryption is worthless since Apple can & does decrypt your data for
any reason, which their own privacy statements allow under any circumstance.

Apple's own privacy statement even allows decrypting your data by any
employee with sufficient permissions who merely suspects you're competing
with Apple.

Handed a single sheet of paper, Apple gave them your private personal data
96% of the time when asked - that's how low Apple's bar is for your privacy.

The only time Apple puts up a fight is when it's a very public request.
Then Apple fights tooth & nail because Apple uses the event as a PR stunt.

If you think iCloud is "end to end" encrypted then you deserve what you get.

Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted

<sfb2ur$d8o$1@hunterbd.eternal-september.org>

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From: Dav...@invalid.E-S (David Brooks)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,rec.photo.digital,comp.mobile.ipad
Subject: Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 13:56:58 +0100
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 by: David Brooks - Sun, 15 Aug 2021 12:56 UTC

On 15/08/2021 13:49, allspam wrote:
> In article <news:slrnshhoto.20ro.g.kreme@m1mini.local>, Lewis
> <g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:
>> End to end means that the file data is encrypted BETWEEN the two ends.
>
> iCloud encryption is worthless since Apple can & does decrypt your data for
> any reason, which their own privacy statements allow under any circumstance.
>
> Apple's own privacy statement even allows decrypting your data by any
> employee with sufficient permissions who merely suspects you're competing
> with Apple.
>
> Handed a single sheet of paper, Apple gave them your private personal data
> 96% of the time when asked - that's how low Apple's bar is for your privacy.
>
> The only time Apple puts up a fight is when it's a very public request.
> Then Apple fights tooth & nail because Apple uses the event as a PR stunt.
>
> If you think iCloud is "end to end" encrypted then you deserve what you get.

You might find this item interesting.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=g6igTJXcqvo&feature=share

I've come to those conclusions myself! ;-)

Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted

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Subject: Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted
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From: bitbuc...@blackhole.com (Alan Browne)
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 by: Alan Browne - Sun, 15 Aug 2021 13:13 UTC

On 2021-08-13 01:44, Heron wrote:
> What does this sentence tell you about WHY Apple is scanning on your
> iPhone?
>
> "The scanning is a step toward fully encrypting iCloud."
>
> https://www.reuters.com/technology/exclusive-apples-child-protection-features-spark-concern-within-its-own-ranks-2021-08-12/

What are the chances that sentence is just bad reporting by Reuters?
It's not quoting an employee directly. Further, the employees dishing
the issue are not even core security employees.

From the same article: "Though coming mainly from employees outside of
lead security and privacy roles, "

Did you read the feature description by Apple? ie: how the scheme is
actually implemented? Here (and read carefully - the most relevant part
beginning on page 5):

https://www.apple.com/child-safety/pdf/Security_Threat_Model_Review_of_Apple_Child_Safety_Features.pdf

Nothing there suggests that actual data/images are not encrypted at all
times when in iCloud. The implementation is important.

I'll say when I first read about the scheme I was taken aback. Reading
that paper from Apple cleared any doubts that I had. Indeed, they
appear to be extra conservative to the point the system is unlikely to
detect many illegal photos at first, until they reduce criteria such as
the 30 image threshold...

Of course, word gets out and the pervs will also avoid iCloud.

--
"...there are many humorous things in this world; among them the white
man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages."
-Samuel Clemens

Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted

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From: McKeis...@ipanywhere.com (Heron)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,rec.photo.digital,comp.mobile.ipad
Subject: Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2021 11:00:59 -0500
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 by: Heron - Sun, 15 Aug 2021 16:00 UTC

On 8/15/2021 8:13 AM, Alan Browne wrote:> What are the chances that sentence
is just bad reporting by Reuters? '

Zero chance it's bad reporting by Reuters.
You do know the exact sentiment has been reported elsewhere many times?

Apple is doing this incredibly stupid on device scanning for a reason.

> It's not quoting an employee directly. Further, the employees dishing
> the issue are not even core security employees.

It's logical. (1) (2) (3)

(1) Apple has always been pressured to not encrypt the iCloud end to end.
(And no, if Apple has the key & uses it, it's not end to end encrypted.)

(2) Apple is doing something which seems incredibly stupid by moving your
photo scanning from the iCloud to billions of individual iPhones.

(3) Yet, by moving the government scan to the billions of iPhones out there,
Apple now is free to encrypt the iCloud (really encrypt it, end to end).

> From the same article: "Though coming mainly from employees outside of
> lead security and privacy roles, "
>
> Did you read the feature description by Apple? ie: how the scheme is
> actually implemented? Here (and read carefully - the most relevant part
> beginning on page 5):

Please stop falling for Apple advertising.
Remember Facetime?
A kid cracked it wide open.
In minutes.

Apple has a sordid record of 0-day holes in everything Apple makes.
Everything.

There's zero chance these two new back doors aren't filled with holes.
Apple has never earned the right to claim _anything_ they write is safe.

When Apple stops outputting a zero day hole every day, then maybe Apple can
begin to earn back the confidence of people who know how poorly Apple codes.

> Nothing there suggests that actual data/images are not encrypted at all
> times when in iCloud. The implementation is important.

No it's not.
Whatever Apple says is advertising bullshit.

Apple has a long sordid record of not testing any of their software.
Apple writes, in effect, a zero-day hole every single day of the year.

Google finds Apple zero-day coding holes at the rate of one a day.
Can you imagine what the TLA's and well funded governments already have?

> I'll say when I first read about the scheme I was taken aback. Reading
> that paper from Apple cleared any doubts that I had.

Do you really believe all that bullshit Apple spewed?
You probably also believe everything in the Bible too.

The earth is 6000 years old.
And you believe it.

Because Tim Cook said it.

> Indeed, they appear to be extra conservative to the point the system is unlikely to
> detect many illegal photos at first, until they reduce criteria such as
> the 30 image threshold...

You don't understand it probably already has a dozen zero-day holes.
Apple has no right to claim _any_ of their software is safe from hackers.

Apple only knows about zero-day bugs when Google tells Apple about them.
Without eyes on open sourced code, it's _already_ filled with 0-day bugs.
> Of course, word gets out and the pervs will also avoid iCloud.

Are you aware hackers stopped accepting Apple zero-day holes?
They come in at the rate of one a day for over five years running.

You believe everything Apple says.
You probably believe everything in the bible too.

Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted

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Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,rec.photo.digital,comp.mobile.ipad
Subject: Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted
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 by: sms - Sun, 15 Aug 2021 16:25 UTC

On 8/15/2021 9:00 AM, Heron wrote:

<snip>

> (2) Apple is doing something which seems incredibly stupid by moving your
>    photo scanning from the iCloud to billions of individual iPhones.

Distributing the task of scanning photos onto billions of individually
owned iPhones, versus thousands of corporate owned iCloud servers,
doesn't seem stupid.

Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted

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 by: Alan Browne - Sun, 15 Aug 2021 16:36 UTC

On 2021-08-15 12:00, Heron wrote:
> On 8/15/2021 8:13 AM, Alan Browne wrote:> What are the chances that
> sentence
> is just bad reporting by Reuters? '
>
> Zero chance it's bad reporting by Reuters.

Says who? They're not naming sources, and they point out that the
people are not even 'core'.

> You do know the exact sentiment has been reported elsewhere many times?

Echoes travel.

>
> Apple is doing this incredibly stupid on device scanning for a reason.

Did you read the paper that I linked to or you're just accepting invalid
assumptions?

>
>> It's not quoting an employee directly.  Further, the employees dishing
>> the issue are not even core security employees.
>
> It's logical. (1) (2) (3)
>
> (1) Apple has always been pressured to not encrypt the iCloud end to end.
>   (And no, if Apple has the key & uses it, it's not end to end encrypted.)

Please learn what end-to-end encryption means and then after you get a
little gold star for that, take to heart: your data on iCloud is also
encrypted - that falls outside "end-to-end".

>
> (2) Apple is doing something which seems incredibly stupid by moving your
>    photo scanning from the iCloud to billions of individual iPhones.

First of all, technically, the simple act of recording an image or
taking a photo means they 'scan' it in some fashion or other. Further,
all user data on iPhones/iPads is stored encrypted on the device.

More importantly, the scan they do for the CSAM function is to generate
a low quality version for the function and generate a hash code
associated with the file. That in turn is compared to known CSAM image
hash codes on the server.

>
> (3) Yet, by moving the government scan to the billions of iPhones out

Eh? Government? Where? In the bushes outside your window?

> there,    Apple now is free to encrypt the iCloud (really encrypt it,
> end to end).

You really, really, really, really don't understand it at all.

>
>>  From the same article: "Though coming mainly from employees outside
>> of lead security and privacy roles, "
>>
>> Did you read the feature description by Apple?  ie: how the scheme is
>> actually implemented?  Here (and read carefully - the most relevant
>> part beginning on page 5):
>
> Please stop falling for Apple advertising.

Answer the question: did you read it carefully?

> Remember Facetime? A kid cracked it wide open.
> In minutes.

Not really and iac: irrelevant to what is being discussed.

>
> Apple has a sordid record of 0-day holes in everything Apple makes.
> Everything.

Not at all. Of course they issue their share of bugs - like everyone.
I for one wish they would do more quality reviews and testing before
release, but here we are.

>
> There's zero chance these two new back doors aren't filled with holes.
> Apple has never earned the right to claim _anything_ they write is safe.

Far safer than most. But hey, if you're anti-Apple that doesn't sink in
very well, I guess.

>
> When Apple stops outputting a zero day hole every day, then maybe Apple can

Please show evidence of Apple putting out zero day exploitable releases
every day.

Prove it. C'mon! Show us what a master you are at this!

> begin to earn back the confidence of people who know how poorly Apple
> codes.
>
>> Nothing there suggests that actual data/images are not encrypted at
>> all times when in iCloud.  The implementation is important.
>
> No it's not.
> Whatever Apple says is advertising bullshit.
>
> Apple has a long sordid record of not testing any of their software.
> Apple writes, in effect, a zero-day hole every single day of the year.
>
> Google finds Apple zero-day coding holes at the rate of one a day.
> Can you imagine what the TLA's and well funded governments already have?
>
>> I'll say when I first read about the scheme I was taken aback.
>> Reading that paper from Apple cleared any doubts that I had.
>
> Do you really believe all that bullshit Apple spewed?
> You probably also believe everything in the Bible too.
>
> The earth is 6000 years old.

Considerably longer, but now it's clear you're off your rocker.

> And you believe it.
>
> Because Tim Cook said it.
>
>> Indeed, they appear to be extra conservative to the point the system
>> is unlikely to detect many illegal photos at first, until they reduce
>> criteria such as the 30 image threshold...
>
> You don't understand it probably already has a dozen zero-day holes.
> Apple has no right to claim _any_ of their software is safe from hackers.
>
> Apple only knows about zero-day bugs when Google tells Apple about them.
> Without eyes on open sourced code, it's _already_ filled with 0-day bugs.
>
>> Of course, word gets out and the pervs will also avoid iCloud.
>
> Are you aware hackers stopped accepting Apple zero-day holes?
> They come in at the rate of one a day for over five years running.

99% of such being innocuous. But blather on. Point is when most
security bugs are found they are simply weak code that is hugely
unlikely to be exploited in the real world.

>
> You believe everything Apple says.
> You probably believe everything in the bible too.

Funny how you make that assumption. So it's clear that everything you
write is basically extrapolated assumptions without any backing at all.

--
"...there are many humorous things in this world; among them the white
man's notion that he is less savage than the other savages."
-Samuel Clemens

Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted

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From: McKeis...@ipanywhere.com (Heron)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,rec.photo.digital,comp.mobile.ipad
Subject: Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 16:49:21 -0500
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 by: Heron - Tue, 17 Aug 2021 21:49 UTC

On 8/15/2021 12:36 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
> Please learn what end-to-end encryption means and then after you get a
> little gold star for that, take to heart: your data on iCloud is also
> encrypted - that falls outside "end-to-end".

Do you not realize who holds the encryption key?

Your definition of "end to end" is the same as Apple's but not the same as
the normal world where it doesn't mean the man in the middle reads
everything anytime he (or anyone else he knows) feels like it.

Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted

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Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,rec.photo.digital,comp.mobile.ipad
Subject: Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted
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 by: Heron - Tue, 17 Aug 2021 21:50 UTC

On 8/15/2021 12:25 PM, sms wrote:
>> (2) Apple is doing something which seems incredibly stupid by moving your
>>    photo scanning from the iCloud to billions of individual iPhones.
>
> Distributing the task of scanning photos onto billions of individually
> owned iPhones, versus thousands of corporate owned iCloud servers,
> doesn't seem stupid.

I'm agreeing with you that it isn't stupid _for Apple_ to do this.

What everyone (except the government) is saying is incredibly stupid of
Apple to do, only "seems" incredibly stupid to all those people who say it.

Apple is actually clever.
Very clever.

Apple accomplishes a few great things (for Apple) by turning billions of
iPhones around the world into government surveillance devices (don't forget
it's only the USA today) which can/will/may in the future, scan for almost
anything almost any well funded entity wishes to pay Apple to scan for them.

1. Apple moves the scanning off their iCloud onto billions of iPhones.
2. Which frees up iCloud for true end to end encryption (the real stuff).

And also (which is minor by way of strategic comparisons)
3. Which saves them CPU cycles on their iCloud servers (as you say).

It's so devilishly clever.
Apple gets paid a large sum of money to add another hash file.

And another after that.
Then another. And another. (It never will end.)

What could be more profitable than that?
Each hash file would be worth billions of dollars yearly to Apple.

You think China hasn't already started asking Apple to do it for them now?

Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted

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 by: nospam - Tue, 17 Aug 2021 21:58 UTC

In article <sfhash$1t3p$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Heron
<McKeister@ipanywhere.com> wrote:

> > Please learn what end-to-end encryption means and then after you get a
> > little gold star for that, take to heart: your data on iCloud is also
> > encrypted - that falls outside "end-to-end".
>
> Do you not realize who holds the encryption key?
>
> Your definition of "end to end" is the same as Apple's but not the same as
> the normal world where it doesn't mean the man in the middle reads
> everything anytime he (or anyone else he knows) feels like it.

except they don't do that.

apple does have they keys, but they will only release them with a court
order, and after multiple people sign off on it.

anyone who tries to get around that will be immediately fired on the
spot, before they can even get very far, and wont be going directly
home either. they'll be spending some time with law enforcement.

Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted

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From: McKeis...@ipanywhere.com (Heron)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,rec.photo.digital,comp.mobile.ipad
Subject: Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2021 17:04:34 -0500
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 by: Heron - Tue, 17 Aug 2021 22:04 UTC

On 8/17/2021 5:58 PM, nospam wrote:
> except they don't do that.

It's Apple bullshit.

It's Apple's definition of "end to end" which is there is a man in the
middle. If you try to claim otherwise it just means you don't understand it.

> apple does have they keys

Which is why it's not true "end to end" encrypted when there is a man in the
middle who can and does hand out your information almost every time asked.

> but they will only release them with a court
> order, and after multiple people sign off on it.

Bullshit.

Apple hands out your data with just a simple letter request.
Apple declines _only_ the requests that are already known in the papers.

In more than 95% of the paper requests Apple has given them _everything_.

> anyone who tries to get around that will be immediately fired on the
> spot, before they can even get very far, and wont be going directly
> home either. they'll be spending some time with law enforcement.

Bullshit.

Anyone with sufficient permission can and does read your data.
All the time.

Apple _is_ the man in the middle.

Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted

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 by: nospam - Tue, 17 Aug 2021 22:16 UTC

In article <sfhbp2$8e3$1@gioia.aioe.org>, Heron
<McKeister@ipanywhere.com> wrote:

> It's my bullshit.

ftfy, arlen

Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted

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From: g.kr...@kreme.dont-email.me (Lewis)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,rec.photo.digital,comp.mobile.ipad
Subject: Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2021 03:32:30 -0000 (UTC)
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 by: Lewis - Wed, 18 Aug 2021 03:32 UTC

In message <sfhash$1t3p$1@gioia.aioe.org> Heron <McKeister@ipanywhere.com> wrote:
> On 8/15/2021 12:36 PM, Alan Browne wrote:
>> Please learn what end-to-end encryption means and then after you get a
>> little gold star for that, take to heart: your data on iCloud is also
>> encrypted - that falls outside "end-to-end".

> Do you not realize who holds the encryption key?

Do you not realize that that has nothing whatsoever to do with
end-to-end encryption?

> Your definition of "end to end" is the same as Apple's but not the same as
> the normal world where it doesn't mean the man in the middle

There is no man in the middle.

Stop using terms you do not know the meaning of.

--
Female kills female and rescues Female with no help from marines.
(Aliens)

Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted

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From: g.kr...@kreme.dont-email.me (Lewis)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,rec.photo.digital,comp.mobile.ipad
Subject: Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted
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 by: Lewis - Wed, 18 Aug 2021 03:36 UTC

In message <sfhbp2$8e3$1@gioia.aioe.org> Heron <McKeister@ipanywhere.com> wrote:
> On 8/17/2021 5:58 PM, nospam wrote:
>> except they don't do that.

> It's Apple bullshit.

> It's Apple's definition of "end to end" which is there is a man in the
> middle. If you try to claim otherwise it just means you don't understand it.

Your ignorance is showing.

>> apple does have they keys

> Which is why it's not true "end to end" encrypted when there is a man in the
> middle who can and does hand out your information almost every time asked.

Your ignorance is showing.

> Apple hands out your data with just a simple letter request.

Your ignorance is showing.

> Anyone with sufficient permission can and does read your data.
> All the time.

Your ignorance is showing.

> Apple _is_ the man in the middle.

Your ignorance is showing.

--
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go.." -
Oscar Wilde

Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted

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 by: nospam - Wed, 18 Aug 2021 03:43 UTC

In article <slrnshovqd.16qk.g.kreme@darth.local>, Lewis
<g.kreme@kreme.dont-email.me> wrote:

> In message <sfhash$1t3p$1@gioia.aioe.org> Heron <McKeister@ipanywhere.com>
> wrote:
> > Do you not realize who holds the encryption key?
>
> Do you not realize that that has nothing whatsoever to do with
> end-to-end encryption?
>
> > Your definition of "end to end" is the same as Apple's but not the same as
> > the normal world where it doesn't mean the man in the middle
>
> There is no man in the middle.
>
> Stop using terms you do not know the meaning of.

it's 'arlen'.

he has trouble with words.

Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted

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From: spa...@nospam.com (Andy Burnelli)
Newsgroups: misc.phone.mobile.iphone,rec.photo.digital,comp.mobile.ipad
Subject: Re: iCloud is NOT end-to-end encrypted
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2022 18:54:23 +0000
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 by: Andy Burnelli - Thu, 8 Dec 2022 18:54 UTC

Apple lied about encryption but recently many articles are saying that
Apple only recently rectified its years of public lies about privacy by
actually implementing an (opt in) ability to encrypt more of your data.

<https://www.macrumors.com/2022/12/08/fbi-privacy-groups-icloud-encryption/>

In that article multiple privacy advocates are quoted saying Apple privacy
is actually, finally, after years of Apple's lies to the contrary, catching
up to Apple's expensive and (up until now all lies) advertising of privacy.

While nobody lies like Apple lies, at least Apple is making good this time.
Good for Apple.

As the article states, Apple is finally catching up to the other companies.
Good for Apple.

1
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