https://docs.google.com/document/d/1a0xSHtRxCq6auzcVowmi8XzkZp7pcLSer4iSM71bJcU/edit

aat@groups.io

littor...@gmail.com wrote:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1a0xSHtRxCq6auzcVowmi8XzkZp7pcLSer4iSM71bJcU/edit

I think the real question is whether chimps arose AFTER the aquatic ape
split -- which I believe is the case -- or if they had split before hand.

Personally? I absolutely positively place the split at <4 million years.

"Less than" 4 million years.

Could be on the order of 2 million years... could be...

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/655544372737327105

Op vrijdag 2 juli 2021 om 00:46:32 UTC+2 schreef I Envy JTEM:

> > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1a0xSHtRxCq6auzcVowmi8XzkZp7pcLSer4iSM71bJcU/edit

> I think the real question is whether chimps arose AFTER the aquatic ape
> split -- which I believe is the case -- or if they had split before hand.
> Personally? I absolutely positively place the split at <4 million years.
> "Less than" 4 million years.
> Could be on the order of 2 million years... could be...

FWIW, IMO
- HPG/Pongo c 15 Ma
- HP/Gorilla c 8 Ma
- Homo/Pan c 5 Ma

*The*aq.ape doesn't exist, of course:
we have:
-arboreal "monkeys"
-aquarboreal Mio-Pliocene "apes" incl.apiths
-littoral Pleistocene H.erectus cs
-wading-walking late-Pleist.H.sapiens

Google
"ape human evolution made easy PPT verhaegen"

Op donderdag 1 juli 2021 om 20:26:56 UTC+2 schreef littor...@gmail.com:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1a0xSHtRxCq6auzcVowmi8XzkZp7pcLSer4iSM71bJcU/edit

At aat@groups.io we're discussing why human gastric secretions can have pH 1 or 2.

littor...@gmail.com wrote:

> - Homo/Pan c 5 Ma

No way. The "Molecular Clock" contingent got divergence down to
around 5 million years -- a little less -- just by switching from mtDNA
to the y chromosome, and the y chromosome was itself under some
HEAVY selective pressures, exaggerating it's age.

And even accepting the real upward limit, which is more like 3.7
million years, that still leaves us with fully 3.5 million years of missing
evidence -- ZERO fossils.

AGAIN: The absolute oldest fossils called "Chimps" are 0.5 million years
old, and we're just talking teeth... and teeth are not as definitive as paleo
anthropology likes to pretend.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/655544372737327105

Op vrijdag 2 juli 2021 om 03:18:10 UTC+2 schreef I Envy JTEM:

> > - Homo/Pan c 5 Ma

> No way. The "Molecular Clock" contingent got divergence down to
> around 5 million years -- a little less -- just by switching from mtDNA
> to the y chromosome, and the y chromosome was itself under some
> HEAVY selective pressures, exaggerating it's age.
> And even accepting the real upward limit, which is more like 3.7
> million years, that still leaves us with fully 3.5 million years of missing
> evidence -- ZERO fossils.
> AGAIN: The absolute oldest fossils called "Chimps" are 0.5 million years
> old, and we're just talking teeth... and teeth are not as definitive as paleo
> anthropology likes to pretend.

No:
Pliocene Gorilla & Pan lived in Africa, Pliocene Homo lived in S-Asia:
-1994 Hum.Evol.9:121-139 "Australopithecines: ancestors of the African apes?"
-1996 Hum.Evol.11:35-41 "Morphological distance between australopithecine, human and ape skulls".
Google
"ape human evolution made easy PPT verhaegen".

littor...@gmail.com wrote:

> > AGAIN: The absolute oldest fossils called "Chimps" are 0.5 million years
> > old, and we're just talking teeth... and teeth are not as definitive as paleo
> > anthropology likes to pretend.

> No:
> Pliocene Gorilla & Pan lived in Africa, Pliocene Homo lived in S-Asia:

That's just Out of Africa in reverse. Humans are best described as a hybrid.
That's not entirely accurate -- it's more of an intra species hybridization not
inter species -- so we're not one thing. We're not from one place.

Pan certainly arose in Africa, but it's not even a clear genus, not genetically.
It's legitimate to say "Homo pan troglodyte." And it's definitely not very old,
certainly having split from the Homo line less than 4 million years ago.

Like I said: The very oldest Pan fossil is only abut 0.5 million years old! Less
than a third the age of erectus!

So the Homo line may well have arisen in Asia/Oceania, migrated into Africa
and then split off into Pan. It very well could have happened that way.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/655619911675248641

Op vrijdag 2 juli 2021 om 22:36:38 UTC+2 schreef I Envy JTEM:

> > > AGAIN: The absolute oldest fossils called "Chimps" are 0.5 million years
> > > old, and we're just talking teeth... and teeth are not as definitive as paleo
> > > anthropology likes to pretend.
>
> > No:
> > Pliocene Gorilla & Pan lived in Africa, Pliocene Homo lived in S-Asia:

....

> That's just Out of Africa in reverse. Humans are best described as a hybrid.
> That's not entirely accurate -- it's more of an intra species hybridization not
> inter species -- so we're not one thing. We're not from one place.
> Pan certainly arose in Africa, but it's not even a clear genus, not genetically.
> It's legitimate to say "Homo pan troglodyte." And it's definitely not very old,
> certainly having split from the Homo line less than 4 million years ago.
> Like I said: The very oldest Pan fossil is only abut 0.5 million years old! Less
> than a third the age of erectus!
> So the Homo line may well have arisen in Asia/Oceania, migrated into Africa
> and then split off into Pan. It very well could have happened that way.

Needless to say, I don't agree.
In short:
-peri-Tethys aquarboreal Mio-Pliocene hominoids,
-late-Miocene hominids in Red Sea / Gulf coastal forests,
-Pliocene Gorilla-Praeanthropus afarensis...boisei along Rift,
-Pliocene Pan-Australopith.africanus...robustus in E-Afr.coastal forests,
-Pliocene Homo along Ind.Ocean coasts -> Java H.erectus -> worldwide.

Not parallel evolutions in Gorilla//Pan (e.g.KWing):
-Pliocene "gracile"apiths
-early-Pleistocene "robust"apiths
-today: trop.forest-dwelling Afr.knuckle-walking apes.

Google:
-ape human evolution made easy PPT verhaegen,
-coastal dispersal Pleistocene Homo PPT.