https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.02.045

SUMMARY

To sustain life, humans and other terrestrial animals must maintain a tight
balance of water gain and water loss each day.1–3 However, the evolution
of human water balance physiology is poorly understood due to the
absence of comparative measures from otherhominoids. While humans
drink daily to maintain water balance, rainforest-living great apes typically
obtain adequate water from their food and can go days or weeks without
drinking4–6. Here, we compare isotope-depletion measures of water
turnover (L/d) in zoo- and rainforestsanctuary-housed apes (chimpanzees,
bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans) with 5 diverse human populations,
including a hunter-gatherercommunity in a semi-arid savannah. Across the
entire sample, water turnover was strongly related to total energy
expenditure
(TEE, kcal/d), physical activity, climate (ambient temperature and humidity),
and fat free mass. In analyses controlling for those factors, water
turnover was
30% to 50% lower in humans than in other apes despite humans’ greater
sweating capacity. Water turnover in zoo and sanctuary apes was similar to
estimated turnover in wild populations, as was the ratio of water intake to
dietary energy intake (
2.8 mL/kcal). However, zoo and sanctuary apes
ingested
a greater ratio of water to drymatter of food, which might contribute to
digestive problems in captivity.Compared to apes, humans appear to target a
lower ratio of water/energy intake (
1.5 mL/kcal). Water stress due to
changes
in climate, diet, and behavior apparently led to previously unknown water
conservation adaptations in hominin physiology.

"Forest-dwelling early hominins,
subsisting on plant foods,8 would have presumably been similar
to forest-living great apes in their water balance physiology.
Maintaining water balance would have become much more challenging
as hominins expanded into hotter and more arid environments,
evolved prodigious sweating capabilities to cope with
heat stress,9 and expanded the diet to include more meat and,
later, cooked foods. However, prior to this study, it was unknown
whether humans differ from other apes in daily water turnover.

"Compared to other apes, humans in this study had substantially
lower water turnover and consumed less water per unit of
metabolized food energy, suggesting evolution in the hominin
lineage to reduce water intake with food. In mammals, eating activates
neurons that stimulate thirst,10 and thus, eating leads to
drinking."

"Humans’ derived sweating physiology9,17 was apparent in the
effects of physical activity and temperature on water turnover.
Humans’ high number of eccrine glands enables sweat production
in excess of 2 L/h during heat stress, 4–10 times the rate of
chimpanzees,9,17 and both sweating and insensible water loss
are greater with increased physical activity in hot, dry climates.1
In the human sample, Hadza hunter-gatherers, the population
with the most physical activity in this sample18 had the highest
water turnover in analyses accounting for effects of TEE, climate,
and fat free mass (Figure 1; Table S2)."

"Lower water turnover and water/energy ratio in humans suggest
strong selection to conserve water in the hominin lineage.
Dietary changes with the advent of hunting and gathering, particularly
cooking (other than boiling), increased the caloric density
and reduced the water content of hominin foods relative to other
primates’19. These changes are evident among living populations
today: compared to the diets of forest-living wild apes,
modern hunter-gatherer diets have
80% more energy per
gram of dry matter and hold
80% less water per kcal; diets of
industrialized human populations are equally dry (Tables S3
and S4). With such low water content in their foods, hominins
became obligate drinkers (Figure 3). Expansion into drier environments,
along with increased physical activity in the heat of
the day, would have exacerbated water loss and water stress
for Pleistocene Homo.9,17 Natural selection, in turn, appears to
have favored anatomical and physiological changes that
reduced water turnover, enabling hominins to range further
from lakes and streams and reducing their exposure to predators
in those environments."

"Hominin water conservation adaptations remain to be determined
and characterized. Intriguingly, external noses, which
reduce insensible water loss20 and have been proposed as water
conservation adaptations,21 first appear in the hominin fossil record
with Homo habilis
2 million years ago and continue to
develop thereafter."

"For baboons living in semi-arid savanna habitats, dependence
on water sources for drinking acts as an ecological tether, constraining
daily travel.23 Chimpanzee communities in semi-arid
savanna habitats appear to be similarly constrained by access
to water.7,24 Adaptations to reduce water demands may have
been essential in enabling early Homo to venture farther from
open water sources and pursue a physically demanding foraging
strategy as the hunting and gathering ecological regime
emerged and developed throughout the Pleistocene."

mandag den 21. juni 2021 kl. 05.29.30 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
> https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.02.045
>
> SUMMARY
>
> To sustain life, humans and other terrestrial animals must maintain a tight
> balance of water gain and water loss each day.1–3 However, the evolution
> of human water balance physiology is poorly understood due to the
> absence of comparative measures from otherhominoids. While humans
> drink daily to maintain water balance, rainforest-living great apes typically
> obtain adequate water from their food and can go days or weeks without
> drinking4–6. Here, we compare isotope-depletion measures of water
> turnover (L/d) in zoo- and rainforestsanctuary-housed apes (chimpanzees,
> bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans) with 5 diverse human populations,
> including a hunter-gatherercommunity in a semi-arid savannah. Across the
> entire sample, water turnover was strongly related to total energy
> expenditure
> (TEE, kcal/d), physical activity, climate (ambient temperature and humidity),
> and fat free mass. In analyses controlling for those factors, water
> turnover was
> 30% to 50% lower in humans than in other apes despite humans’ greater
> sweating capacity. Water turnover in zoo and sanctuary apes was similar to
> estimated turnover in wild populations, as was the ratio of water intake to
> dietary energy intake ( 2.8 mL/kcal). However, zoo and sanctuary apes
> ingested
> a greater ratio of water to drymatter of food, which might contribute to
> digestive problems in captivity.Compared to apes, humans appear to target a
> lower ratio of water/energy intake ( 1.5 mL/kcal). Water stress due to
> changes
> in climate, diet, and behavior apparently led to previously unknown water
> conservation adaptations in hominin physiology.
>
>
> "Forest-dwelling early hominins,
> subsisting on plant foods,8 would have presumably been similar
> to forest-living great apes in their water balance physiology.
> Maintaining water balance would have become much more challenging
> as hominins expanded into hotter and more arid environments,
> evolved prodigious sweating capabilities to cope with
> heat stress,9 and expanded the diet to include more meat and,
> later, cooked foods. However, prior to this study, it was unknown
> whether humans differ from other apes in daily water turnover.
>
> "Compared to other apes, humans in this study had substantially
> lower water turnover and consumed less water per unit of
> metabolized food energy, suggesting evolution in the hominin
> lineage to reduce water intake with food. In mammals, eating activates
> neurons that stimulate thirst,10 and thus, eating leads to
> drinking."
>
> "Humans’ derived sweating physiology9,17 was apparent in the
> effects of physical activity and temperature on water turnover.
> Humans’ high number of eccrine glands enables sweat production
> in excess of 2 L/h during heat stress, 4–10 times the rate of
> chimpanzees,9,17 and both sweating and insensible water loss
> are greater with increased physical activity in hot, dry climates.1
> In the human sample, Hadza hunter-gatherers, the population
> with the most physical activity in this sample18 had the highest
> water turnover in analyses accounting for effects of TEE, climate,
> and fat free mass (Figure 1; Table S2)."
>
> "Lower water turnover and water/energy ratio in humans suggest
> strong selection to conserve water in the hominin lineage.
> Dietary changes with the advent of hunting and gathering, particularly
> cooking (other than boiling), increased the caloric density
> and reduced the water content of hominin foods relative to other
> primates’19. These changes are evident among living populations
> today: compared to the diets of forest-living wild apes,
> modern hunter-gatherer diets have 80% more energy per
> gram of dry matter and hold 80% less water per kcal; diets of
> industrialized human populations are equally dry (Tables S3
> and S4). With such low water content in their foods, hominins
> became obligate drinkers (Figure 3). Expansion into drier environments,
> along with increased physical activity in the heat of
> the day, would have exacerbated water loss and water stress
> for Pleistocene Homo.9,17 Natural selection, in turn, appears to
> have favored anatomical and physiological changes that
> reduced water turnover, enabling hominins to range further
> from lakes and streams and reducing their exposure to predators
> in those environments."
>
> "Hominin water conservation adaptations remain to be determined
> and characterized. Intriguingly, external noses, which
> reduce insensible water loss20 and have been proposed as water
> conservation adaptations,21 first appear in the hominin fossil record
> with Homo habilis 2 million years ago and continue to
> develop thereafter."
>
> "For baboons living in semi-arid savanna habitats, dependence
> on water sources for drinking acts as an ecological tether, constraining
> daily travel.23 Chimpanzee communities in semi-arid
> savanna habitats appear to be similarly constrained by access
> to water.7,24 Adaptations to reduce water demands may have
> been essential in enabling early Homo to venture farther from
> open water sources and pursue a physically demanding foraging
> strategy as the hunting and gathering ecological regime
> emerged and developed throughout the Pleistocene."

Total nonsense. Actual savannah baboons have been clocked survivng 23 days without a fresh drink of water. We die after 4. We die.
But to hell with William of Ockham, right?

Op maandag 21 juni 2021 om 05:29:30 UTC+2 schreef Primum Sapienti:
> https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.02.045
>
> To sustain life, humans and other terrestrial animals must maintain a tight
> balance of water gain and water loss each day.1–3 However, the evolution
> of human water balance physiology is poorly understood

yes, they poorly understand it...

> due to the
> absence of comparative measures from otherhominoids. While humans
> drink daily to maintain water balance, rainforest-living great apes typically
> obtain adequate water from their food and can go days or weeks without
> drinking4–6. Here, we compare isotope-depletion measures of water
> turnover (L/d) in zoo- and rainforestsanctuary-housed apes (chimpanzees,
> bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans) with 5 diverse human populations,
> including a hunter-gatherercommunity in a semi-arid savannah. Across the
> entire sample, water turnover was strongly related to total energy
> expenditure
> (TEE, kcal/d), physical activity, climate (ambient temperature and humidity),
> and fat free mass. In analyses controlling for those factors, water
> turnover was
> 30% to 50% lower in humans than in other apes despite humans’ greater
> sweating capacity. Water turnover in zoo and sanctuary apes was similar to
> estimated turnover in wild populations, as was the ratio of water intake to
> dietary energy intake ( 2.8 mL/kcal). However, zoo and sanctuary apes
> ingested
> a greater ratio of water to drymatter of food, which might contribute to
> digestive problems in captivity.Compared to apes, humans appear to target a
> lower ratio of water/energy intake ( 1.5 mL/kcal). Water stress due to
> changes
> in climate, diet, and behavior apparently led to previously unknown water
> conservation adaptations in hominin physiology.

These people still live in the middle ages:

Machteld Roede, Jan Wind, John Patrick, Vernon Reynolds eds 1991
"The Aquatic Ape: Fact or Fiction?"
Souvenir London Marc Verhaegen, p.182–192 Chapter 11
"Human Regulation of Body Temperature and Water Balance"

SUMMARY
There is no evidence that the physiological characteristics distinguishing man from other primates evolved as adaptations to life on the savannah. On the contrary, many of these features, especially those concerned with the regulation of temperature and water balance, would have been positively maladaptive in such an environment.

INTRODUCTION
In 1924 Raymond Dart discovered the first australopithecine skull in Taung, in a semi-arid region of South Africa. It was Dart who conceived the hypothesis that the ancestors of humans began to diverge from the apes because they migrated to a savannah-type environment. The theory appeared to represent the most straight-forward method of connecting two pieces of ‘evidence’ – that is, Dart’s supposedly savannah-dwelling hominid child and the belief that very much later Homo hunted big game on the African plains (Susman 1987). We now know that Dart’s ideas were based, at least partly, on a misconception. He was convinced that the climate at Taung was as hot and dry when the Taung baby lived there as it is today. It is now realised that the palaeoenvironment of the Taung child was probably humid (Partridge 1985, Brain 1985). Moreover, the subsequent discoveries which have done so much to narrow the fossil gap have all been of hominids which lived and died near water (see Verhaegen, this volume, chapter 5). The savannah theory thus remains an artificial construction, a ‘Just So Story’ comparable with the hypothetical ‘land bridges’ in geology before the theory of plate tectonics. Accounts of how our Plio-Pleistocene ancestors may have lived on the savannah include bouts of strenuous activity outside the gallery forest for hunting or digging (Hanna and Brown 1983, but see Newman 1970); dogged pursuit of swifter animals over one or two days (Carrier 1984); and bipedal trekking after migrating herds of savannah ungulates (Sinclair, Leakey and Morton, 1986, but see Leutenegger 1987, Verhaegen 1987). Some of the even more imaginative versions appear mutually contradictory. For example, the hypothesis of a foraging or hunting male accords ill with the meridian theory of Wheeler that our ancestors became bipedal to minimise direct solar radiation at midday and retained a hairy heat shield only on top of the head (1984, 1988, in imitation of D. H. K. Lee in Newman 1970, and in Schmidt-Nielsen 1974 p. 89). If we accept this reasoning, it must have been the women who ranged over the plains at noon, while the balding and bearded males rested in the shade.

ERECT POSTURE, NAKEDNESS AND SUBCUTANEOUS FAT
The suggestion has been made that erect posture and nakedness may have evolved to function in humans as a combined strategy of thermoregulation in an arid environment. In this connection it is noteworthy that (1) in no other species are hairlessness and erect posture found in combination, and (2) in no other species can either feature be shown to assist efficient temperature control on land. Meerkats, prairie dogs and gerenuks frequently stand erect on extended hind limbs; kangaroos and several convergent rodents (for instance, Dipodus, Pedetes, Dipodomys, Jaculus) resort to bipedal locomotion when moving at speed, though their body posture with flexed hip and knee joints is very different from the human erect stance. But all these have retained a coat of fur which protects them from the sun (Montagna 1965). As for nakedness, it is found among real savannah or desert dwellers only in the underground tunnels of the naked mole-rat, a completely fossorial animal. In the African elephant and black and white rhino, which are functionally naked and live partly on the savannah, the hairlessness seems more of an affliction than an asset; these animals exploit every opportunity of wallowing to acquire a covering of mud as a protection against solar radiation. It is true that a few medium-sized savannah mammals, such as aardvarks, wart-hogs and hunting dogs, are comparatively sparsely haired. But this feature is unlikely to have evolved as a defence against the sun’s heat, since these species spend the day in holes and are active at dusk or at night. Humans lack the short reflective fur of diurnal savannah dwellers such as zebras and bovids, lions and camels (Wilson 1979 pp. 752-3, Newman 1970, Wheeler 1984). Instead, they display a subcutaneous layer of white fat tissue, fairly evenly distributed over the surface of the central body parts and comprising on average around 20 per cent of body weight. This fat layer is (1) conspicuously absent in savannah mammals and conspicuously common in the larger aquatic ones, and (2) demonstrably maladaptive in a hot terrestrial environment.

There are no fat animals on the savannah, with the exception of small burrowing rodents or marsupials. In the case of these species, the fat is brown rather than white, internal or localised (for instance, in a fat tail) rather than subcutaneous and, unlike human fat, it is subject to seasonal fluctuation. Among larger animals, the dromedary has occasional need of a fat store against food shortage, but here again the fat is highly concentrated (in the hump), varies with the animal’s feeding condition, and fluctuates between 0.5 and 8 per cent of its body weight. The only fat animal which exploits the grasslands around the rivers is the hippopotamus, but it does this at night and stays in the water during the day. In the case of marine mammals, however, the fat tissue is universal among the larger species. It varies from 20 to 25 per cent of the body weight in fast swimmers to more than 40 per cent in the slower species (Slijper 1958, 1979). The adaptiveness of this feature in water has been further illustrated by studies of human athletes. For example, blacks – in whom subcutaneous fat comprises a somewhat lower percentage of overall body weight than in other races – tend to be the swiftest runners over both short and long distances, but they are relatively poor swimmers (Ghesquiere and Bunkens, this volume chapter 16). Successful swimmers are on average fatter than the winners of track events, and many long-distance swimmers are even grossly fat (Pugh and Edholm 1955). The fat layer has been shown to be an effective barrier against heat loss in water. A study of a fat Channel swimmer revealed that when lying still in bath water at 18°C for more than one hour, he complained of no discomfort other than boredom, whereas another subject with much less subcutaneous fat complained of intense discomfort and showed a drastic drop in rectal temperature after fifteen minutes (Pugh and Edholm). Clearly, the possession of the fat layer facilitates spending more time in the water. The result of one recent experiment even suggested that the converse may also be true. It was found in a study of slightly obese women that, without dietary restriction, an hour’s daily walking or cycling reduced body weight by 10 and 12 per cent respectively after six months, while a daily swim caused a weight gain of 3 per cent over the same period (Gwinup 1987). On land, on the other hand, subcutaneous fat has the dual disadvantage of reducing speed and, in hot climates, of acting as a heat trap. An extra weight of fat tissue equivalent to only 10 per cent of body weight seriously reduces speed. Even in temperate climates, no terrestrial animal that has to run for its life – be it as predator or prey – has much fat. Hares, for instance, which escape predators by running, have much less body fat than rabbits, which take refuge in their burrows. Excess fat can constitute a real risk to humans taking exercise, especially in hot and sunny environments (Austin and Lanking 1986). In fact, it has been calculated that most land-based sports other than walking and table tennis are up to ten times more likely to lead to fatalities than swimming, despite the additional danger of drowning incurred by swimmers (Dolmans 1987). And the same fat layer that is advantageous in water, with its high thermal conductivity, is a handicap to effective temperature control on-land. Stranded dolphins, even in cool environments, soon die of hyperthermia. And Pribilof fur seals are seriously distressed by any activity on land at air temperatures of only 10°C (McFarland et al.1979 p.773). The alleged danger of overheating on the savannah - sometimes advanced as the reason for hairlessness - would have been compounded by the evolution of the fat layer.

Op maandag 21 juni 2021 om 05:33:05 UTC+2 schreef C. H. Engelbrecht:
> mandag den 21. juni 2021 kl. 05.29.30 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
> > https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.02.045

> Total nonsense. Actual savannah baboons have been clocked survivng 23 days without a fresh drink of water. We die after 4. We die.
> But to hell with William of Ockham, right?

Yes, Chris, it's total nonsense. Incredible! They still live in the middle ages, running after antelopes.

On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 3:50:46 PM UTC-4, littor...@gmail.com wrote:
> Op maandag 21 juni 2021 om 05:33:05 UTC+2 schreef C. H. Engelbrecht:
> > mandag den 21. juni 2021 kl. 05.29.30 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
> > > https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.02.045
> > Total nonsense. Actual savannah baboons have been clocked survivng 23 days without a fresh drink of water. We die after 4. We die.
> > But to hell with William of Ockham, right?
> Yes, Chris, it's total nonsense. Incredible! They still live in the middle ages, running after antelopes.

What is a fresh drink of water?

mandag den 21. juni 2021 kl. 23.53.29 UTC+2 skrev DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves:
> On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 3:50:46 PM UTC-4, littor...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Op maandag 21 juni 2021 om 05:33:05 UTC+2 schreef C. H. Engelbrecht:
> > > mandag den 21. juni 2021 kl. 05.29.30 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
> > > > https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.02.045
> > > Total nonsense. Actual savannah baboons have been clocked survivng 23 days without a fresh drink of water. We die after 4. We die.
> > > But to hell with William of Ockham, right?
> > Yes, Chris, it's total nonsense. Incredible! They still live in the middle ages, running after antelopes.
> What is a fresh drink of water?

This:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upONYPgP0aw

On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 9:57:49 PM UTC-4, C. H. Engelbrecht wrote:
> mandag den 21. juni 2021 kl. 23.53.29 UTC+2 skrev DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves:
> > On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 3:50:46 PM UTC-4, littor...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > Op maandag 21 juni 2021 om 05:33:05 UTC+2 schreef C. H. Engelbrecht:
> > > > mandag den 21. juni 2021 kl. 05.29.30 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
> > > > > https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.02.045
> > > > Total nonsense. Actual savannah baboons have been clocked survivng 23 days without a fresh drink of water. We die after 4. We die.
> > > > But to hell with William of Ockham, right?
> > > Yes, Chris, it's total nonsense. Incredible! They still live in the middle ages, running after antelopes.
> > What is a fresh drink of water?
> This:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upONYPgP0aw
A bit murky. I prefer a shallow crystalline stream.

tirsdag den 22. juni 2021 kl. 04.16.16 UTC+2 skrev DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves:
> On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 9:57:49 PM UTC-4, C. H. Engelbrecht wrote:
> > mandag den 21. juni 2021 kl. 23.53.29 UTC+2 skrev DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves:
> > > On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 3:50:46 PM UTC-4, littor...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > Op maandag 21 juni 2021 om 05:33:05 UTC+2 schreef C. H. Engelbrecht:
> > > > > mandag den 21. juni 2021 kl. 05.29.30 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
> > > > > > https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.02.045
> > > > > Total nonsense. Actual savannah baboons have been clocked survivng 23 days without a fresh drink of water. We die after 4. We die.
> > > > > But to hell with William of Ockham, right?
> > > > Yes, Chris, it's total nonsense. Incredible! They still live in the middle ages, running after antelopes.
> > > What is a fresh drink of water?
> > This:
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upONYPgP0aw
> A bit murky. I prefer a shallow crystalline stream.

Uhuh. And what does that tell ya, Homo litore?

https://i.gifer.com/9cfj.gif

On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 10:44:10 PM UTC-4, C. H. Engelbrecht wrote:
> tirsdag den 22. juni 2021 kl. 04.16.16 UTC+2 skrev DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves:
> > On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 9:57:49 PM UTC-4, C. H. Engelbrecht wrote:
> > > mandag den 21. juni 2021 kl. 23.53.29 UTC+2 skrev DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves:
> > > > On Monday, June 21, 2021 at 3:50:46 PM UTC-4, littor...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > Op maandag 21 juni 2021 om 05:33:05 UTC+2 schreef C. H. Engelbrecht:
> > > > > > mandag den 21. juni 2021 kl. 05.29.30 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
> > > > > > > https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.02.045
> > > > > > Total nonsense. Actual savannah baboons have been clocked survivng 23 days without a fresh drink of water. We die after 4. We die.
> > > > > > But to hell with William of Ockham, right?
> > > > > Yes, Chris, it's total nonsense. Incredible! They still live in the middle ages, running after antelopes.
> > > > What is a fresh drink of water?
> > > This:
> > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upONYPgP0aw
> > A bit murky. I prefer a shallow crystalline stream.
> Uhuh. And what does that tell ya, Homo litore?
>
> https://i.gifer.com/9cfj.gif

The forest filters both sunlight and freshwater.

C. H. Engelbrecht wrote:
> mandag den 21. juni 2021 kl. 05.29.30 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
>> https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.02.045
>>
>> SUMMARY
>>
>> To sustain life, humans and other terrestrial animals must maintain a tight
>> balance of water gain and water loss each day.1–3 However, the evolution
>> of human water balance physiology is poorly understood due to the
>> absence of comparative measures from otherhominoids. While humans
>> drink daily to maintain water balance, rainforest-living great apes typically
>> obtain adequate water from their food and can go days or weeks without
>> drinking4–6. Here, we compare isotope-depletion measures of water
>> turnover (L/d) in zoo- and rainforestsanctuary-housed apes (chimpanzees,
>> bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans) with 5 diverse human populations,
>> including a hunter-gatherercommunity in a semi-arid savannah. Across the
>> entire sample, water turnover was strongly related to total energy
>> expenditure
>> (TEE, kcal/d), physical activity, climate (ambient temperature and humidity),
>> and fat free mass. In analyses controlling for those factors, water
>> turnover was
>> 30% to 50% lower in humans than in other apes despite humans’ greater
>> sweating capacity. Water turnover in zoo and sanctuary apes was similar to
>> estimated turnover in wild populations, as was the ratio of water intake to
>> dietary energy intake ( 2.8 mL/kcal). However, zoo and sanctuary apes
>> ingested
>> a greater ratio of water to drymatter of food, which might contribute to
>> digestive problems in captivity.Compared to apes, humans appear to target a
>> lower ratio of water/energy intake ( 1.5 mL/kcal). Water stress due to
>> changes
>> in climate, diet, and behavior apparently led to previously unknown water
>> conservation adaptations in hominin physiology.
>>
>>
>> "Forest-dwelling early hominins,
>> subsisting on plant foods,8 would have presumably been similar
>> to forest-living great apes in their water balance physiology.
>> Maintaining water balance would have become much more challenging
>> as hominins expanded into hotter and more arid environments,
>> evolved prodigious sweating capabilities to cope with
>> heat stress,9 and expanded the diet to include more meat and,
>> later, cooked foods. However, prior to this study, it was unknown
>> whether humans differ from other apes in daily water turnover.
>>
>> "Compared to other apes, humans in this study had substantially
>> lower water turnover and consumed less water per unit of
>> metabolized food energy, suggesting evolution in the hominin
>> lineage to reduce water intake with food. In mammals, eating activates
>> neurons that stimulate thirst,10 and thus, eating leads to
>> drinking."
>>
>> "Humans’ derived sweating physiology9,17 was apparent in the
>> effects of physical activity and temperature on water turnover.
>> Humans’ high number of eccrine glands enables sweat production
>> in excess of 2 L/h during heat stress, 4–10 times the rate of
>> chimpanzees,9,17 and both sweating and insensible water loss
>> are greater with increased physical activity in hot, dry climates.1
>> In the human sample, Hadza hunter-gatherers, the population
>> with the most physical activity in this sample18 had the highest
>> water turnover in analyses accounting for effects of TEE, climate,
>> and fat free mass (Figure 1; Table S2)."
>>
>> "Lower water turnover and water/energy ratio in humans suggest
>> strong selection to conserve water in the hominin lineage.
>> Dietary changes with the advent of hunting and gathering, particularly
>> cooking (other than boiling), increased the caloric density
>> and reduced the water content of hominin foods relative to other
>> primates’19. These changes are evident among living populations
>> today: compared to the diets of forest-living wild apes,
>> modern hunter-gatherer diets have 80% more energy per
>> gram of dry matter and hold 80% less water per kcal; diets of
>> industrialized human populations are equally dry (Tables S3
>> and S4). With such low water content in their foods, hominins
>> became obligate drinkers (Figure 3). Expansion into drier environments,
>> along with increased physical activity in the heat of
>> the day, would have exacerbated water loss and water stress
>> for Pleistocene Homo.9,17 Natural selection, in turn, appears to
>> have favored anatomical and physiological changes that
>> reduced water turnover, enabling hominins to range further
>> from lakes and streams and reducing their exposure to predators
>> in those environments."
>>
>> "Hominin water conservation adaptations remain to be determined
>> and characterized. Intriguingly, external noses, which
>> reduce insensible water loss20 and have been proposed as water
>> conservation adaptations,21 first appear in the hominin fossil record
>> with Homo habilis 2 million years ago and continue to
>> develop thereafter."
>>
>> "For baboons living in semi-arid savanna habitats, dependence
>> on water sources for drinking acts as an ecological tether, constraining
>> daily travel.23 Chimpanzee communities in semi-arid
>> savanna habitats appear to be similarly constrained by access
>> to water.7,24 Adaptations to reduce water demands may have
>> been essential in enabling early Homo to venture farther from
>> open water sources and pursue a physically demanding foraging
>> strategy as the hunting and gathering ecological regime
>> emerged and developed throughout the Pleistocene."
>
> Total nonsense. Actual savannah baboons have been clocked survivng 23 days without a fresh drink of water. We die after 4. We die.
> But to hell with William of Ockham, right?

Well, all you need is yor own data and study.

littor...@gmail.com wrote:
> Op maandag 21 juni 2021 om 05:29:30 UTC+2 schreef Primum Sapienti:
>> https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.02.045
>>
>> To sustain life, humans and other terrestrial animals must maintain a tight
>> balance of water gain and water loss each day.1–3 However, the evolution
>> of human water balance physiology is poorly understood
>
> yes, they poorly understand it...
>
>> due to the
>> absence of comparative measures from otherhominoids. While humans
>> drink daily to maintain water balance, rainforest-living great apes typically
>> obtain adequate water from their food and can go days or weeks without
>> drinking4–6. Here, we compare isotope-depletion measures of water
>> turnover (L/d) in zoo- and rainforestsanctuary-housed apes (chimpanzees,
>> bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans) with 5 diverse human populations,
>> including a hunter-gatherercommunity in a semi-arid savannah. Across the
>> entire sample, water turnover was strongly related to total energy
>> expenditure
>> (TEE, kcal/d), physical activity, climate (ambient temperature and humidity),
>> and fat free mass. In analyses controlling for those factors, water
>> turnover was
>> 30% to 50% lower in humans than in other apes despite humans’ greater
>> sweating capacity. Water turnover in zoo and sanctuary apes was similar to
>> estimated turnover in wild populations, as was the ratio of water intake to
>> dietary energy intake ( 2.8 mL/kcal). However, zoo and sanctuary apes
>> ingested
>> a greater ratio of water to drymatter of food, which might contribute to
>> digestive problems in captivity.Compared to apes, humans appear to target a
>> lower ratio of water/energy intake ( 1.5 mL/kcal). Water stress due to
>> changes
>> in climate, diet, and behavior apparently led to previously unknown water
>> conservation adaptations in hominin physiology.
>
>
> These people still live in the middle ages:

snorkel noses ;)

tirsdag den 6. juli 2021 kl. 05.04.09 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
> C. H. Engelbrecht wrote:
> > mandag den 21. juni 2021 kl. 05.29.30 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
> >> https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.02.045
> >>
> >> SUMMARY
> >>
> >> To sustain life, humans and other terrestrial animals must maintain a tight
> >> balance of water gain and water loss each day.1–3 However, the evolution
> >> of human water balance physiology is poorly understood due to the
> >> absence of comparative measures from otherhominoids. While humans
> >> drink daily to maintain water balance, rainforest-living great apes typically
> >> obtain adequate water from their food and can go days or weeks without
> >> drinking4–6. Here, we compare isotope-depletion measures of water
> >> turnover (L/d) in zoo- and rainforestsanctuary-housed apes (chimpanzees,
> >> bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans) with 5 diverse human populations,
> >> including a hunter-gatherercommunity in a semi-arid savannah. Across the
> >> entire sample, water turnover was strongly related to total energy
> >> expenditure
> >> (TEE, kcal/d), physical activity, climate (ambient temperature and humidity),
> >> and fat free mass. In analyses controlling for those factors, water
> >> turnover was
> >> 30% to 50% lower in humans than in other apes despite humans’ greater
> >> sweating capacity. Water turnover in zoo and sanctuary apes was similar to
> >> estimated turnover in wild populations, as was the ratio of water intake to
> >> dietary energy intake ( 2.8 mL/kcal). However, zoo and sanctuary apes
> >> ingested
> >> a greater ratio of water to drymatter of food, which might contribute to
> >> digestive problems in captivity.Compared to apes, humans appear to target a
> >> lower ratio of water/energy intake ( 1.5 mL/kcal). Water stress due to
> >> changes
> >> in climate, diet, and behavior apparently led to previously unknown water
> >> conservation adaptations in hominin physiology.
> >>
> >>
> >> "Forest-dwelling early hominins,
> >> subsisting on plant foods,8 would have presumably been similar
> >> to forest-living great apes in their water balance physiology.
> >> Maintaining water balance would have become much more challenging
> >> as hominins expanded into hotter and more arid environments,
> >> evolved prodigious sweating capabilities to cope with
> >> heat stress,9 and expanded the diet to include more meat and,
> >> later, cooked foods. However, prior to this study, it was unknown
> >> whether humans differ from other apes in daily water turnover.
> >>
> >> "Compared to other apes, humans in this study had substantially
> >> lower water turnover and consumed less water per unit of
> >> metabolized food energy, suggesting evolution in the hominin
> >> lineage to reduce water intake with food. In mammals, eating activates
> >> neurons that stimulate thirst,10 and thus, eating leads to
> >> drinking."
> >>
> >> "Humans’ derived sweating physiology9,17 was apparent in the
> >> effects of physical activity and temperature on water turnover.
> >> Humans’ high number of eccrine glands enables sweat production
> >> in excess of 2 L/h during heat stress, 4–10 times the rate of
> >> chimpanzees,9,17 and both sweating and insensible water loss
> >> are greater with increased physical activity in hot, dry climates.1
> >> In the human sample, Hadza hunter-gatherers, the population
> >> with the most physical activity in this sample18 had the highest
> >> water turnover in analyses accounting for effects of TEE, climate,
> >> and fat free mass (Figure 1; Table S2)."
> >>
> >> "Lower water turnover and water/energy ratio in humans suggest
> >> strong selection to conserve water in the hominin lineage.
> >> Dietary changes with the advent of hunting and gathering, particularly
> >> cooking (other than boiling), increased the caloric density
> >> and reduced the water content of hominin foods relative to other
> >> primates’19. These changes are evident among living populations
> >> today: compared to the diets of forest-living wild apes,
> >> modern hunter-gatherer diets have 80% more energy per
> >> gram of dry matter and hold 80% less water per kcal; diets of
> >> industrialized human populations are equally dry (Tables S3
> >> and S4). With such low water content in their foods, hominins
> >> became obligate drinkers (Figure 3). Expansion into drier environments,
> >> along with increased physical activity in the heat of
> >> the day, would have exacerbated water loss and water stress
> >> for Pleistocene Homo.9,17 Natural selection, in turn, appears to
> >> have favored anatomical and physiological changes that
> >> reduced water turnover, enabling hominins to range further
> >> from lakes and streams and reducing their exposure to predators
> >> in those environments."
> >>
> >> "Hominin water conservation adaptations remain to be determined
> >> and characterized. Intriguingly, external noses, which
> >> reduce insensible water loss20 and have been proposed as water
> >> conservation adaptations,21 first appear in the hominin fossil record
> >> with Homo habilis 2 million years ago and continue to
> >> develop thereafter."
> >>
> >> "For baboons living in semi-arid savanna habitats, dependence
> >> on water sources for drinking acts as an ecological tether, constraining
> >> daily travel.23 Chimpanzee communities in semi-arid
> >> savanna habitats appear to be similarly constrained by access
> >> to water.7,24 Adaptations to reduce water demands may have
> >> been essential in enabling early Homo to venture farther from
> >> open water sources and pursue a physically demanding foraging
> >> strategy as the hunting and gathering ecological regime
> >> emerged and developed throughout the Pleistocene."
> >
> > Total nonsense. Actual savannah baboons have been clocked survivng 23 days without a fresh drink of water. We die after 4. We die.
> > But to hell with William of Ockham, right?
> Well, all you need is yor own data and study.

26 vs 4.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13818795-000-real-monkeys-dont-drink-water-a-remarkable-troop-of-southern-african-baboons-has-learnt-how-to-survive-in-a-desert-unfit-for-primate-life-but-their-days-could-be-numbered/

C. H. Engelbrecht wrote:
> tirsdag den 6. juli 2021 kl. 05.04.09 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
>> C. H. Engelbrecht wrote:
>>> mandag den 21. juni 2021 kl. 05.29.30 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
>>>> https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.02.045
>>>>
>>>> SUMMARY
>>>>
>>>> To sustain life, humans and other terrestrial animals must maintain a tight
>>>> balance of water gain and water loss each day.1–3 However, the evolution
>>>> of human water balance physiology is poorly understood due to the
>>>> absence of comparative measures from otherhominoids. While humans
>>>> drink daily to maintain water balance, rainforest-living great apes typically
>>>> obtain adequate water from their food and can go days or weeks without
>>>> drinking4–6. Here, we compare isotope-depletion measures of water
>>>> turnover (L/d) in zoo- and rainforestsanctuary-housed apes (chimpanzees,
>>>> bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans) with 5 diverse human populations,
>>>> including a hunter-gatherercommunity in a semi-arid savannah. Across the
>>>> entire sample, water turnover was strongly related to total energy
>>>> expenditure
>>>> (TEE, kcal/d), physical activity, climate (ambient temperature and humidity),
>>>> and fat free mass. In analyses controlling for those factors, water
>>>> turnover was
>>>> 30% to 50% lower in humans than in other apes despite humans’ greater
>>>> sweating capacity. Water turnover in zoo and sanctuary apes was similar to
>>>> estimated turnover in wild populations, as was the ratio of water intake to
>>>> dietary energy intake ( 2.8 mL/kcal). However, zoo and sanctuary apes
>>>> ingested
>>>> a greater ratio of water to drymatter of food, which might contribute to
>>>> digestive problems in captivity.Compared to apes, humans appear to target a
>>>> lower ratio of water/energy intake ( 1.5 mL/kcal). Water stress due to
>>>> changes
>>>> in climate, diet, and behavior apparently led to previously unknown water
>>>> conservation adaptations in hominin physiology.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Forest-dwelling early hominins,
>>>> subsisting on plant foods,8 would have presumably been similar
>>>> to forest-living great apes in their water balance physiology.
>>>> Maintaining water balance would have become much more challenging
>>>> as hominins expanded into hotter and more arid environments,
>>>> evolved prodigious sweating capabilities to cope with
>>>> heat stress,9 and expanded the diet to include more meat and,
>>>> later, cooked foods. However, prior to this study, it was unknown
>>>> whether humans differ from other apes in daily water turnover.
>>>>
>>>> "Compared to other apes, humans in this study had substantially
>>>> lower water turnover and consumed less water per unit of
>>>> metabolized food energy, suggesting evolution in the hominin
>>>> lineage to reduce water intake with food. In mammals, eating activates
>>>> neurons that stimulate thirst,10 and thus, eating leads to
>>>> drinking."
>>>>
>>>> "Humans’ derived sweating physiology9,17 was apparent in the
>>>> effects of physical activity and temperature on water turnover.
>>>> Humans’ high number of eccrine glands enables sweat production
>>>> in excess of 2 L/h during heat stress, 4–10 times the rate of
>>>> chimpanzees,9,17 and both sweating and insensible water loss
>>>> are greater with increased physical activity in hot, dry climates.1
>>>> In the human sample, Hadza hunter-gatherers, the population
>>>> with the most physical activity in this sample18 had the highest
>>>> water turnover in analyses accounting for effects of TEE, climate,
>>>> and fat free mass (Figure 1; Table S2)."
>>>>
>>>> "Lower water turnover and water/energy ratio in humans suggest
>>>> strong selection to conserve water in the hominin lineage.
>>>> Dietary changes with the advent of hunting and gathering, particularly
>>>> cooking (other than boiling), increased the caloric density
>>>> and reduced the water content of hominin foods relative to other
>>>> primates’19. These changes are evident among living populations
>>>> today: compared to the diets of forest-living wild apes,
>>>> modern hunter-gatherer diets have 80% more energy per
>>>> gram of dry matter and hold 80% less water per kcal; diets of
>>>> industrialized human populations are equally dry (Tables S3
>>>> and S4). With such low water content in their foods, hominins
>>>> became obligate drinkers (Figure 3). Expansion into drier environments,
>>>> along with increased physical activity in the heat of
>>>> the day, would have exacerbated water loss and water stress
>>>> for Pleistocene Homo.9,17 Natural selection, in turn, appears to
>>>> have favored anatomical and physiological changes that
>>>> reduced water turnover, enabling hominins to range further
>>>> from lakes and streams and reducing their exposure to predators
>>>> in those environments."
>>>>
>>>> "Hominin water conservation adaptations remain to be determined
>>>> and characterized. Intriguingly, external noses, which
>>>> reduce insensible water loss20 and have been proposed as water
>>>> conservation adaptations,21 first appear in the hominin fossil record
>>>> with Homo habilis 2 million years ago and continue to
>>>> develop thereafter."
>>>>
>>>> "For baboons living in semi-arid savanna habitats, dependence
>>>> on water sources for drinking acts as an ecological tether, constraining
>>>> daily travel.23 Chimpanzee communities in semi-arid
>>>> savanna habitats appear to be similarly constrained by access
>>>> to water.7,24 Adaptations to reduce water demands may have
>>>> been essential in enabling early Homo to venture farther from
>>>> open water sources and pursue a physically demanding foraging
>>>> strategy as the hunting and gathering ecological regime
>>>> emerged and developed throughout the Pleistocene."
>>>
>>> Total nonsense. Actual savannah baboons have been clocked survivng 23 days without a fresh drink of water. We die after 4. We die.
>>> But to hell with William of Ockham, right?
>> Well, all you need is yor own data and study.
>
> 26 vs 4.
>
> https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13818795-000-real-monkeys-dont-drink-water-a-remarkable-troop-of-southern-african-baboons-has-learnt-how-to-survive-in-a-desert-unfit-for-primate-life-but-their-days-could-be-numbered/
>

"baboons living in semi-arid savanna habitats"

"Chimpanzee communities in semi-arid savanna habitats"

You're welcome.

søndag den 11. juli 2021 kl. 06.28.55 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
> C. H. Engelbrecht wrote:
> > tirsdag den 6. juli 2021 kl. 05.04.09 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
> >> C. H. Engelbrecht wrote:
> >>> mandag den 21. juni 2021 kl. 05.29.30 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
> >>>> https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.02.045
> >>>>
> >>>> SUMMARY
> >>>>
> >>>> To sustain life, humans and other terrestrial animals must maintain a tight
> >>>> balance of water gain and water loss each day.1–3 However, the evolution
> >>>> of human water balance physiology is poorly understood due to the
> >>>> absence of comparative measures from otherhominoids. While humans
> >>>> drink daily to maintain water balance, rainforest-living great apes typically
> >>>> obtain adequate water from their food and can go days or weeks without
> >>>> drinking4–6. Here, we compare isotope-depletion measures of water
> >>>> turnover (L/d) in zoo- and rainforestsanctuary-housed apes (chimpanzees,
> >>>> bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans) with 5 diverse human populations,
> >>>> including a hunter-gatherercommunity in a semi-arid savannah. Across the
> >>>> entire sample, water turnover was strongly related to total energy
> >>>> expenditure
> >>>> (TEE, kcal/d), physical activity, climate (ambient temperature and humidity),
> >>>> and fat free mass. In analyses controlling for those factors, water
> >>>> turnover was
> >>>> 30% to 50% lower in humans than in other apes despite humans’ greater
> >>>> sweating capacity. Water turnover in zoo and sanctuary apes was similar to
> >>>> estimated turnover in wild populations, as was the ratio of water intake to
> >>>> dietary energy intake ( 2.8 mL/kcal). However, zoo and sanctuary apes
> >>>> ingested
> >>>> a greater ratio of water to drymatter of food, which might contribute to
> >>>> digestive problems in captivity.Compared to apes, humans appear to target a
> >>>> lower ratio of water/energy intake ( 1.5 mL/kcal). Water stress due to
> >>>> changes
> >>>> in climate, diet, and behavior apparently led to previously unknown water
> >>>> conservation adaptations in hominin physiology.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> "Forest-dwelling early hominins,
> >>>> subsisting on plant foods,8 would have presumably been similar
> >>>> to forest-living great apes in their water balance physiology.
> >>>> Maintaining water balance would have become much more challenging
> >>>> as hominins expanded into hotter and more arid environments,
> >>>> evolved prodigious sweating capabilities to cope with
> >>>> heat stress,9 and expanded the diet to include more meat and,
> >>>> later, cooked foods. However, prior to this study, it was unknown
> >>>> whether humans differ from other apes in daily water turnover.
> >>>>
> >>>> "Compared to other apes, humans in this study had substantially
> >>>> lower water turnover and consumed less water per unit of
> >>>> metabolized food energy, suggesting evolution in the hominin
> >>>> lineage to reduce water intake with food. In mammals, eating activates
> >>>> neurons that stimulate thirst,10 and thus, eating leads to
> >>>> drinking."
> >>>>
> >>>> "Humans’ derived sweating physiology9,17 was apparent in the
> >>>> effects of physical activity and temperature on water turnover.
> >>>> Humans’ high number of eccrine glands enables sweat production
> >>>> in excess of 2 L/h during heat stress, 4–10 times the rate of
> >>>> chimpanzees,9,17 and both sweating and insensible water loss
> >>>> are greater with increased physical activity in hot, dry climates.1
> >>>> In the human sample, Hadza hunter-gatherers, the population
> >>>> with the most physical activity in this sample18 had the highest
> >>>> water turnover in analyses accounting for effects of TEE, climate,
> >>>> and fat free mass (Figure 1; Table S2)."
> >>>>
> >>>> "Lower water turnover and water/energy ratio in humans suggest
> >>>> strong selection to conserve water in the hominin lineage.
> >>>> Dietary changes with the advent of hunting and gathering, particularly
> >>>> cooking (other than boiling), increased the caloric density
> >>>> and reduced the water content of hominin foods relative to other
> >>>> primates’19. These changes are evident among living populations
> >>>> today: compared to the diets of forest-living wild apes,
> >>>> modern hunter-gatherer diets have 80% more energy per
> >>>> gram of dry matter and hold 80% less water per kcal; diets of
> >>>> industrialized human populations are equally dry (Tables S3
> >>>> and S4). With such low water content in their foods, hominins
> >>>> became obligate drinkers (Figure 3). Expansion into drier environments,
> >>>> along with increased physical activity in the heat of
> >>>> the day, would have exacerbated water loss and water stress
> >>>> for Pleistocene Homo.9,17 Natural selection, in turn, appears to
> >>>> have favored anatomical and physiological changes that
> >>>> reduced water turnover, enabling hominins to range further
> >>>> from lakes and streams and reducing their exposure to predators
> >>>> in those environments."
> >>>>
> >>>> "Hominin water conservation adaptations remain to be determined
> >>>> and characterized. Intriguingly, external noses, which
> >>>> reduce insensible water loss20 and have been proposed as water
> >>>> conservation adaptations,21 first appear in the hominin fossil record
> >>>> with Homo habilis 2 million years ago and continue to
> >>>> develop thereafter."
> >>>>
> >>>> "For baboons living in semi-arid savanna habitats, dependence
> >>>> on water sources for drinking acts as an ecological tether, constraining
> >>>> daily travel.23 Chimpanzee communities in semi-arid
> >>>> savanna habitats appear to be similarly constrained by access
> >>>> to water.7,24 Adaptations to reduce water demands may have
> >>>> been essential in enabling early Homo to venture farther from
> >>>> open water sources and pursue a physically demanding foraging
> >>>> strategy as the hunting and gathering ecological regime
> >>>> emerged and developed throughout the Pleistocene."
> >>>
> >>> Total nonsense. Actual savannah baboons have been clocked survivng 23 days without a fresh drink of water. We die after 4. We die.
> >>> But to hell with William of Ockham, right?
> >> Well, all you need is yor own data and study.
> >
> > 26 vs 4.
> >
> > https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13818795-000-real-monkeys-dont-drink-water-a-remarkable-troop-of-southern-african-baboons-has-learnt-how-to-survive-in-a-desert-unfit-for-primate-life-but-their-days-could-be-numbered/
> >
>
> "baboons living in semi-arid savanna habitats"
>
> "Chimpanzee communities in semi-arid savanna habitats"
> You're welcome.

No, I am not.

C. H. Engelbrecht wrote:
> søndag den 11. juli 2021 kl. 06.28.55 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
>> C. H. Engelbrecht wrote:
>>> tirsdag den 6. juli 2021 kl. 05.04.09 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
>>>> C. H. Engelbrecht wrote:
>>>>> mandag den 21. juni 2021 kl. 05.29.30 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
>>>>>> https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.02.045
>>>>>>
>>>>>> SUMMARY
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To sustain life, humans and other terrestrial animals must maintain a tight
>>>>>> balance of water gain and water loss each day.1–3 However, the evolution
>>>>>> of human water balance physiology is poorly understood due to the
>>>>>> absence of comparative measures from otherhominoids. While humans
>>>>>> drink daily to maintain water balance, rainforest-living great apes typically
>>>>>> obtain adequate water from their food and can go days or weeks without
>>>>>> drinking4–6. Here, we compare isotope-depletion measures of water
>>>>>> turnover (L/d) in zoo- and rainforestsanctuary-housed apes (chimpanzees,
>>>>>> bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans) with 5 diverse human populations,
>>>>>> including a hunter-gatherercommunity in a semi-arid savannah. Across the
>>>>>> entire sample, water turnover was strongly related to total energy
>>>>>> expenditure
>>>>>> (TEE, kcal/d), physical activity, climate (ambient temperature and humidity),
>>>>>> and fat free mass. In analyses controlling for those factors, water
>>>>>> turnover was
>>>>>> 30% to 50% lower in humans than in other apes despite humans’ greater
>>>>>> sweating capacity. Water turnover in zoo and sanctuary apes was similar to
>>>>>> estimated turnover in wild populations, as was the ratio of water intake to
>>>>>> dietary energy intake ( 2.8 mL/kcal). However, zoo and sanctuary apes
>>>>>> ingested
>>>>>> a greater ratio of water to drymatter of food, which might contribute to
>>>>>> digestive problems in captivity.Compared to apes, humans appear to target a
>>>>>> lower ratio of water/energy intake ( 1.5 mL/kcal). Water stress due to
>>>>>> changes
>>>>>> in climate, diet, and behavior apparently led to previously unknown water
>>>>>> conservation adaptations in hominin physiology.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Forest-dwelling early hominins,
>>>>>> subsisting on plant foods,8 would have presumably been similar
>>>>>> to forest-living great apes in their water balance physiology.
>>>>>> Maintaining water balance would have become much more challenging
>>>>>> as hominins expanded into hotter and more arid environments,
>>>>>> evolved prodigious sweating capabilities to cope with
>>>>>> heat stress,9 and expanded the diet to include more meat and,
>>>>>> later, cooked foods. However, prior to this study, it was unknown
>>>>>> whether humans differ from other apes in daily water turnover.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Compared to other apes, humans in this study had substantially
>>>>>> lower water turnover and consumed less water per unit of
>>>>>> metabolized food energy, suggesting evolution in the hominin
>>>>>> lineage to reduce water intake with food. In mammals, eating activates
>>>>>> neurons that stimulate thirst,10 and thus, eating leads to
>>>>>> drinking."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Humans’ derived sweating physiology9,17 was apparent in the
>>>>>> effects of physical activity and temperature on water turnover.
>>>>>> Humans’ high number of eccrine glands enables sweat production
>>>>>> in excess of 2 L/h during heat stress, 4–10 times the rate of
>>>>>> chimpanzees,9,17 and both sweating and insensible water loss
>>>>>> are greater with increased physical activity in hot, dry climates.1
>>>>>> In the human sample, Hadza hunter-gatherers, the population
>>>>>> with the most physical activity in this sample18 had the highest
>>>>>> water turnover in analyses accounting for effects of TEE, climate,
>>>>>> and fat free mass (Figure 1; Table S2)."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Lower water turnover and water/energy ratio in humans suggest
>>>>>> strong selection to conserve water in the hominin lineage.
>>>>>> Dietary changes with the advent of hunting and gathering, particularly
>>>>>> cooking (other than boiling), increased the caloric density
>>>>>> and reduced the water content of hominin foods relative to other
>>>>>> primates’19. These changes are evident among living populations
>>>>>> today: compared to the diets of forest-living wild apes,
>>>>>> modern hunter-gatherer diets have 80% more energy per
>>>>>> gram of dry matter and hold 80% less water per kcal; diets of
>>>>>> industrialized human populations are equally dry (Tables S3
>>>>>> and S4). With such low water content in their foods, hominins
>>>>>> became obligate drinkers (Figure 3). Expansion into drier environments,
>>>>>> along with increased physical activity in the heat of
>>>>>> the day, would have exacerbated water loss and water stress
>>>>>> for Pleistocene Homo.9,17 Natural selection, in turn, appears to
>>>>>> have favored anatomical and physiological changes that
>>>>>> reduced water turnover, enabling hominins to range further
>>>>>> from lakes and streams and reducing their exposure to predators
>>>>>> in those environments."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Hominin water conservation adaptations remain to be determined
>>>>>> and characterized. Intriguingly, external noses, which
>>>>>> reduce insensible water loss20 and have been proposed as water
>>>>>> conservation adaptations,21 first appear in the hominin fossil record
>>>>>> with Homo habilis 2 million years ago and continue to
>>>>>> develop thereafter."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "For baboons living in semi-arid savanna habitats, dependence
>>>>>> on water sources for drinking acts as an ecological tether, constraining
>>>>>> daily travel.23 Chimpanzee communities in semi-arid
>>>>>> savanna habitats appear to be similarly constrained by access
>>>>>> to water.7,24 Adaptations to reduce water demands may have
>>>>>> been essential in enabling early Homo to venture farther from
>>>>>> open water sources and pursue a physically demanding foraging
>>>>>> strategy as the hunting and gathering ecological regime
>>>>>> emerged and developed throughout the Pleistocene."
>>>>>
>>>>> Total nonsense. Actual savannah baboons have been clocked survivng 23 days without a fresh drink of water. We die after 4. We die.
>>>>> But to hell with William of Ockham, right?
>>>> Well, all you need is yor own data and study.
>>>
>>> 26 vs 4.
>>>
>>> https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13818795-000-real-monkeys-dont-drink-water-a-remarkable-troop-of-southern-african-baboons-has-learnt-how-to-survive-in-a-desert-unfit-for-primate-life-but-their-days-could-be-numbered/
>>
>> "baboons living in semi-arid savanna habitats"
>>
>> "Chimpanzee communities in semi-arid savanna habitats"
>> You're welcome.
>
> No, I am not.

Too bad.

fredag den 23. juli 2021 kl. 06.44.19 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
> C. H. Engelbrecht wrote:
> > søndag den 11. juli 2021 kl. 06.28.55 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
> >> C. H. Engelbrecht wrote:
> >>> tirsdag den 6. juli 2021 kl. 05.04.09 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
> >>>> C. H. Engelbrecht wrote:
> >>>>> mandag den 21. juni 2021 kl. 05.29.30 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
> >>>>>> https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.02.045
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> SUMMARY
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> To sustain life, humans and other terrestrial animals must maintain a tight
> >>>>>> balance of water gain and water loss each day.1–3 However, the evolution
> >>>>>> of human water balance physiology is poorly understood due to the
> >>>>>> absence of comparative measures from otherhominoids. While humans
> >>>>>> drink daily to maintain water balance, rainforest-living great apes typically
> >>>>>> obtain adequate water from their food and can go days or weeks without
> >>>>>> drinking4–6. Here, we compare isotope-depletion measures of water
> >>>>>> turnover (L/d) in zoo- and rainforestsanctuary-housed apes (chimpanzees,
> >>>>>> bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans) with 5 diverse human populations,
> >>>>>> including a hunter-gatherercommunity in a semi-arid savannah. Across the
> >>>>>> entire sample, water turnover was strongly related to total energy
> >>>>>> expenditure
> >>>>>> (TEE, kcal/d), physical activity, climate (ambient temperature and humidity),
> >>>>>> and fat free mass. In analyses controlling for those factors, water
> >>>>>> turnover was
> >>>>>> 30% to 50% lower in humans than in other apes despite humans’ greater
> >>>>>> sweating capacity. Water turnover in zoo and sanctuary apes was similar to
> >>>>>> estimated turnover in wild populations, as was the ratio of water intake to
> >>>>>> dietary energy intake ( 2.8 mL/kcal). However, zoo and sanctuary apes
> >>>>>> ingested
> >>>>>> a greater ratio of water to drymatter of food, which might contribute to
> >>>>>> digestive problems in captivity.Compared to apes, humans appear to target a
> >>>>>> lower ratio of water/energy intake ( 1.5 mL/kcal). Water stress due to
> >>>>>> changes
> >>>>>> in climate, diet, and behavior apparently led to previously unknown water
> >>>>>> conservation adaptations in hominin physiology.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "Forest-dwelling early hominins,
> >>>>>> subsisting on plant foods,8 would have presumably been similar
> >>>>>> to forest-living great apes in their water balance physiology.
> >>>>>> Maintaining water balance would have become much more challenging
> >>>>>> as hominins expanded into hotter and more arid environments,
> >>>>>> evolved prodigious sweating capabilities to cope with
> >>>>>> heat stress,9 and expanded the diet to include more meat and,
> >>>>>> later, cooked foods. However, prior to this study, it was unknown
> >>>>>> whether humans differ from other apes in daily water turnover.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "Compared to other apes, humans in this study had substantially
> >>>>>> lower water turnover and consumed less water per unit of
> >>>>>> metabolized food energy, suggesting evolution in the hominin
> >>>>>> lineage to reduce water intake with food. In mammals, eating activates
> >>>>>> neurons that stimulate thirst,10 and thus, eating leads to
> >>>>>> drinking."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "Humans’ derived sweating physiology9,17 was apparent in the
> >>>>>> effects of physical activity and temperature on water turnover.
> >>>>>> Humans’ high number of eccrine glands enables sweat production
> >>>>>> in excess of 2 L/h during heat stress, 4–10 times the rate of
> >>>>>> chimpanzees,9,17 and both sweating and insensible water loss
> >>>>>> are greater with increased physical activity in hot, dry climates.1
> >>>>>> In the human sample, Hadza hunter-gatherers, the population
> >>>>>> with the most physical activity in this sample18 had the highest
> >>>>>> water turnover in analyses accounting for effects of TEE, climate,
> >>>>>> and fat free mass (Figure 1; Table S2)."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "Lower water turnover and water/energy ratio in humans suggest
> >>>>>> strong selection to conserve water in the hominin lineage.
> >>>>>> Dietary changes with the advent of hunting and gathering, particularly
> >>>>>> cooking (other than boiling), increased the caloric density
> >>>>>> and reduced the water content of hominin foods relative to other
> >>>>>> primates’19. These changes are evident among living populations
> >>>>>> today: compared to the diets of forest-living wild apes,
> >>>>>> modern hunter-gatherer diets have 80% more energy per
> >>>>>> gram of dry matter and hold 80% less water per kcal; diets of
> >>>>>> industrialized human populations are equally dry (Tables S3
> >>>>>> and S4). With such low water content in their foods, hominins
> >>>>>> became obligate drinkers (Figure 3). Expansion into drier environments,
> >>>>>> along with increased physical activity in the heat of
> >>>>>> the day, would have exacerbated water loss and water stress
> >>>>>> for Pleistocene Homo.9,17 Natural selection, in turn, appears to
> >>>>>> have favored anatomical and physiological changes that
> >>>>>> reduced water turnover, enabling hominins to range further
> >>>>>> from lakes and streams and reducing their exposure to predators
> >>>>>> in those environments."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "Hominin water conservation adaptations remain to be determined
> >>>>>> and characterized. Intriguingly, external noses, which
> >>>>>> reduce insensible water loss20 and have been proposed as water
> >>>>>> conservation adaptations,21 first appear in the hominin fossil record
> >>>>>> with Homo habilis 2 million years ago and continue to
> >>>>>> develop thereafter."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "For baboons living in semi-arid savanna habitats, dependence
> >>>>>> on water sources for drinking acts as an ecological tether, constraining
> >>>>>> daily travel.23 Chimpanzee communities in semi-arid
> >>>>>> savanna habitats appear to be similarly constrained by access
> >>>>>> to water.7,24 Adaptations to reduce water demands may have
> >>>>>> been essential in enabling early Homo to venture farther from
> >>>>>> open water sources and pursue a physically demanding foraging
> >>>>>> strategy as the hunting and gathering ecological regime
> >>>>>> emerged and developed throughout the Pleistocene."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Total nonsense. Actual savannah baboons have been clocked survivng 23 days without a fresh drink of water. We die after 4. We die.
> >>>>> But to hell with William of Ockham, right?
> >>>> Well, all you need is yor own data and study.
> >>>
> >>> 26 vs 4.
> >>>
> >>> https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13818795-000-real-monkeys-dont-drink-water-a-remarkable-troop-of-southern-african-baboons-has-learnt-how-to-survive-in-a-desert-unfit-for-primate-life-but-their-days-could-be-numbered/
> >>
> >> "baboons living in semi-arid savanna habitats"
> >>
> >> "Chimpanzee communities in semi-arid savanna habitats"
> >> You're welcome.
> >
> > No, I am not.
> Too bad.

On Monday 21 June 2021 at 04:29:30 UTC+1, Primum Sapienti wrote:
> https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.02.045

> "Lower water turnover and water/energy ratio in humans suggest
> strong selection to conserve water in the hominin lineage.
> Dietary changes with the advent of hunting and gathering, particularly
> cooking (other than boiling), increased the caloric density
> and reduced the water content of hominin foods relative to other
> primates’19. These changes are evident among living populations
> today: compared to the diets of forest-living wild apes,
> modern hunter-gatherer diets have 80% more energy per
> gram of dry matter and hold 80% less water per kcal; diets of
> industrialized human populations are equally dry (Tables S3
> and S4). With such low water content in their foods, hominins
> became obligate drinkers (Figure 3). Expansion into drier environments,
> along with increased physical activity in the heat of
> the day, would have exacerbated water loss and water stress
> for Pleistocene Homo.9,17 Natural selection, in turn, appears to
> have favored anatomical and physiological changes that
> reduced water turnover, enabling hominins to range further
> from lakes and streams and reducing their exposure to predators
> in those environments."

==============================================
On Monday 21 June 2021 at 20:48:38 UTC+1, littor...@gmail.com wrote:

> Machteld Roede, Jan Wind, John Patrick, Vernon Reynolds eds 1991
> "The Aquatic Ape: Fact or Fiction?"
> Souvenir London Marc Verhaegen, p.182–192 Chapter 11
> "Human Regulation of Body Temperature and Water Balance"
>
> CONCLUSION
> All the available evidence points to an extreme dependence on water in humans (Table
> 11.2). Even if our ancestors once lived in mosaic savannah environments, they would be
> expected to have evolved a more efficient system of water conservation than is in fact
> the case. ‘Man suffers from a unique trio of conditions: hypotrichosis corporis,
> hyperhydrosis, and polydipsia’ (nakedness, sweatiness and thirst) (Newman 1970).
> Humans cannot withstand hyperthermia and cannot store heat. They have abundant
> sweat and tears, rather saturated expiration and dilute urine, watery faeces, a low
> drinking capacity, a naked skin, a rather thick subcutaneous fat layer over the central
> body parts, a rather low body temperature and a small circadian temperature
> fluctuation. Each of these features suggests that man evolved in an environment where
> water was permanently and abundantly available.
======================================
The arguments here (quoted facts and
inferences made) are not incompatible

Our hominin ancestors must have evolved in a
habitat where USUALLY there was plenty of fresh
water (and salt). They are necessary for sweat.
But it was not the tropical forest inhabited by the
other large primates, with which humans are
being compared in the first paper. In that forest,
the large apes will nearly always have reliable
sources of water. Much of it will be in their diet
(of fruit, etc.). Once hominins left the forest,
they almost necessarily occupied habitats
that experienced periods of drought, more
severe than any endured in the forest. They
had to be able to reduce their water needs
for those conditions. During droughts they'd
avoid intense exercise or other sweat-
producing situations .

Sweating was (and still is) IMO something of
"a luxury" in that its function was primarily
to enable young males to fight (or compete
in non-fatal competition -- akin to modern
sports) and was largely (if indirectly) sexually
selected. Males who sweated more (or more
effectively) had more offspring. Traditional
claims that it was related to hunting, are IMO
without foundation, and there was little else
likely to yield direct benefit.

Paul Crowley wrote:
> On Monday 21 June 2021 at 04:29:30 UTC+1, Primum Sapienti wrote:
>> https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.02.045
>

>
> Sweating was (and still is) IMO something of
> "a luxury" in that its function was primarily
> to enable young males to fight (or compete
> in non-fatal competition -- akin to modern
> sports) and was largely (if indirectly) sexually
> selected. Males who sweated more (or more
> effectively) had more offspring. Traditional
> claims that it was related to hunting, are IMO
> without foundation, and there was little else
> likely to yield direct benefit.
>
Women sweat too. Don't recall ever seeing the claim it was related to
hunting. It's a cooling mechanism and it only has to be warm for it.
Activity level can be nothing more than just standing and you can still sweat.

C. H. Engelbrecht wrote:
> fredag den 23. juli 2021 kl. 06.44.19 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
>> C. H. Engelbrecht wrote:
>>> søndag den 11. juli 2021 kl. 06.28.55 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
>>>> C. H. Engelbrecht wrote:
>>>>> tirsdag den 6. juli 2021 kl. 05.04.09 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
>>>>>> C. H. Engelbrecht wrote:
>>>>>>> mandag den 21. juni 2021 kl. 05.29.30 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
>>>>>>>> https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.02.045
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> SUMMARY
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To sustain life, humans and other terrestrial animals must maintain a tight
>>>>>>>> balance of water gain and water loss each day.1–3 However, the evolution
>>>>>>>> of human water balance physiology is poorly understood due to the
>>>>>>>> absence of comparative measures from otherhominoids. While humans
>>>>>>>> drink daily to maintain water balance, rainforest-living great apes typically
>>>>>>>> obtain adequate water from their food and can go days or weeks without
>>>>>>>> drinking4–6. Here, we compare isotope-depletion measures of water
>>>>>>>> turnover (L/d) in zoo- and rainforestsanctuary-housed apes (chimpanzees,
>>>>>>>> bonobos, gorillas, and orangutans) with 5 diverse human populations,
>>>>>>>> including a hunter-gatherercommunity in a semi-arid savannah. Across the
>>>>>>>> entire sample, water turnover was strongly related to total energy
>>>>>>>> expenditure
>>>>>>>> (TEE, kcal/d), physical activity, climate (ambient temperature and humidity),
>>>>>>>> and fat free mass. In analyses controlling for those factors, water
>>>>>>>> turnover was
>>>>>>>> 30% to 50% lower in humans than in other apes despite humans’ greater
>>>>>>>> sweating capacity. Water turnover in zoo and sanctuary apes was similar to
>>>>>>>> estimated turnover in wild populations, as was the ratio of water intake to
>>>>>>>> dietary energy intake ( 2.8 mL/kcal). However, zoo and sanctuary apes
>>>>>>>> ingested
>>>>>>>> a greater ratio of water to drymatter of food, which might contribute to
>>>>>>>> digestive problems in captivity.Compared to apes, humans appear to target a
>>>>>>>> lower ratio of water/energy intake ( 1.5 mL/kcal). Water stress due to
>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>> in climate, diet, and behavior apparently led to previously unknown water
>>>>>>>> conservation adaptations in hominin physiology.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Forest-dwelling early hominins,
>>>>>>>> subsisting on plant foods,8 would have presumably been similar
>>>>>>>> to forest-living great apes in their water balance physiology.
>>>>>>>> Maintaining water balance would have become much more challenging
>>>>>>>> as hominins expanded into hotter and more arid environments,
>>>>>>>> evolved prodigious sweating capabilities to cope with
>>>>>>>> heat stress,9 and expanded the diet to include more meat and,
>>>>>>>> later, cooked foods. However, prior to this study, it was unknown
>>>>>>>> whether humans differ from other apes in daily water turnover.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Compared to other apes, humans in this study had substantially
>>>>>>>> lower water turnover and consumed less water per unit of
>>>>>>>> metabolized food energy, suggesting evolution in the hominin
>>>>>>>> lineage to reduce water intake with food. In mammals, eating activates
>>>>>>>> neurons that stimulate thirst,10 and thus, eating leads to
>>>>>>>> drinking."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Humans’ derived sweating physiology9,17 was apparent in the
>>>>>>>> effects of physical activity and temperature on water turnover.
>>>>>>>> Humans’ high number of eccrine glands enables sweat production
>>>>>>>> in excess of 2 L/h during heat stress, 4–10 times the rate of
>>>>>>>> chimpanzees,9,17 and both sweating and insensible water loss
>>>>>>>> are greater with increased physical activity in hot, dry climates.1
>>>>>>>> In the human sample, Hadza hunter-gatherers, the population
>>>>>>>> with the most physical activity in this sample18 had the highest
>>>>>>>> water turnover in analyses accounting for effects of TEE, climate,
>>>>>>>> and fat free mass (Figure 1; Table S2)."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Lower water turnover and water/energy ratio in humans suggest
>>>>>>>> strong selection to conserve water in the hominin lineage.
>>>>>>>> Dietary changes with the advent of hunting and gathering, particularly
>>>>>>>> cooking (other than boiling), increased the caloric density
>>>>>>>> and reduced the water content of hominin foods relative to other
>>>>>>>> primates’19. These changes are evident among living populations
>>>>>>>> today: compared to the diets of forest-living wild apes,
>>>>>>>> modern hunter-gatherer diets have 80% more energy per
>>>>>>>> gram of dry matter and hold 80% less water per kcal; diets of
>>>>>>>> industrialized human populations are equally dry (Tables S3
>>>>>>>> and S4). With such low water content in their foods, hominins
>>>>>>>> became obligate drinkers (Figure 3). Expansion into drier environments,
>>>>>>>> along with increased physical activity in the heat of
>>>>>>>> the day, would have exacerbated water loss and water stress
>>>>>>>> for Pleistocene Homo.9,17 Natural selection, in turn, appears to
>>>>>>>> have favored anatomical and physiological changes that
>>>>>>>> reduced water turnover, enabling hominins to range further
>>>>>>>> from lakes and streams and reducing their exposure to predators
>>>>>>>> in those environments."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Hominin water conservation adaptations remain to be determined
>>>>>>>> and characterized. Intriguingly, external noses, which
>>>>>>>> reduce insensible water loss20 and have been proposed as water
>>>>>>>> conservation adaptations,21 first appear in the hominin fossil record
>>>>>>>> with Homo habilis 2 million years ago and continue to
>>>>>>>> develop thereafter."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "For baboons living in semi-arid savanna habitats, dependence
>>>>>>>> on water sources for drinking acts as an ecological tether, constraining
>>>>>>>> daily travel.23 Chimpanzee communities in semi-arid
>>>>>>>> savanna habitats appear to be similarly constrained by access
>>>>>>>> to water.7,24 Adaptations to reduce water demands may have
>>>>>>>> been essential in enabling early Homo to venture farther from
>>>>>>>> open water sources and pursue a physically demanding foraging
>>>>>>>> strategy as the hunting and gathering ecological regime
>>>>>>>> emerged and developed throughout the Pleistocene."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Total nonsense. Actual savannah baboons have been clocked survivng 23 days without a fresh drink of water. We die after 4. We die.
>>>>>>> But to hell with William of Ockham, right?
>>>>>> Well, all you need is yor own data and study.
>>>>>
>>>>> 26 vs 4.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg13818795-000-real-monkeys-dont-drink-water-a-remarkable-troop-of-southern-african-baboons-has-learnt-how-to-survive-in-a-desert-unfit-for-primate-life-but-their-days-could-be-numbered/
>>>>
>>>> "baboons living in semi-arid savanna habitats"
>>>>
>>>> "Chimpanzee communities in semi-arid savanna habitats"
>>>> You're welcome.
>>>
>>> No, I am not.
>> Too bad.
>
> Hey, enough cheering on pig shit stupidity and ignorance. It is not a virtue. Fuck Trump and the Big Lie. I have spent all my patience for human stupidity a long time ago.
>
I accept your surrender.

lørdag den 31. juli 2021 kl. 07.59.43 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
> Paul Crowley wrote:
> > On Monday 21 June 2021 at 04:29:30 UTC+1, Primum Sapienti wrote:
> >> https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.02.045
> >
>
> >
> > Sweating was (and still is) IMO something of
> > "a luxury" in that its function was primarily
> > to enable young males to fight (or compete
> > in non-fatal competition -- akin to modern
> > sports) and was largely (if indirectly) sexually
> > selected. Males who sweated more (or more
> > effectively) had more offspring. Traditional
> > claims that it was related to hunting, are IMO
> > without foundation, and there was little else
> > likely to yield direct benefit.
> >
> Women sweat too. Don't recall ever seeing the claim it was related to
> hunting. It's a cooling mechanism and it only has to be warm for it.
> Activity level can be nothing more than just standing and you can still sweat.

Sweating is more a sunscreen than thermoregulation. Same function as in hippos.

On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 23:08:34 -0700 (PDT), "C. H. Engelbrecht"
<c.h.engelbrecht@gmail.com> wrote:

>lørdag den 31. juli 2021 kl. 07.59.43 UTC+2 skrev Primum Sapienti:
>> Paul Crowley wrote:
>> > On Monday 21 June 2021 at 04:29:30 UTC+1, Primum Sapienti wrote:
>> >> https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.02.045
>> >
>>
>> >
>> > Sweating was (and still is) IMO something of
>> > "a luxury" in that its function was primarily
>> > to enable young males to fight (or compete
>> > in non-fatal competition -- akin to modern
>> > sports) and was largely (if indirectly) sexually
>> > selected. Males who sweated more (or more
>> > effectively) had more offspring. Traditional
>> > claims that it was related to hunting, are IMO
>> > without foundation, and there was little else
>> > likely to yield direct benefit.
>> >
>> Women sweat too. Don't recall ever seeing the claim it was related to
>> hunting. It's a cooling mechanism and it only has to be warm for it.
>> Activity level can be nothing more than just standing and you can still sweat.
>
>Sweating is more a sunscreen than thermoregulation. Same function as in hippos.

Nope, very different:

https://www.nature.com/articles/429363a

Also notice other differences in the skin between humans and hippos,
e.g. absence of dermal adipose tissue and hair follicle-associated
sebaceous glands in the latter, while their presence in humans are
supposed to be former aquatic adaptations.

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2021.02.057
Free full text:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.11.15.383638v1

Op zaterdag 31 juli 2021 om 08:08:35 UTC+2 schreef C. H. Engelbrecht:

> Sweating is more a sunscreen than thermoregulation. Same function as in hippos.

The last word isn't said on human sweating.
We have eccrine (watery, at least 2 sorts: emotional & cooling) & apocrine (oily layer) sweating.
Eccrine sweating in primates might have begun with volar sweating: grasping branches.
Eccrines all over the body had probably to do with sodium regulation (littoral phase).
Complicated stuff, but see interesting ideas of Gareth Morgan (son of Elaine) at aat@groups.io.
Of course, the kudu runners believe we evolved body eccrines to run after antelopes...

søndag den 1. august 2021 kl. 14.17.08 UTC+2 skrev littor...@gmail.com:
> Op zaterdag 31 juli 2021 om 08:08:35 UTC+2 schreef C. H. Engelbrecht:
> > Sweating is more a sunscreen than thermoregulation. Same function as in hippos.
> The last word isn't said on human sweating.
> We have eccrine (watery, at least 2 sorts: emotional & cooling) & apocrine (oily layer) sweating.
> Eccrine sweating in primates might have begun with volar sweating: grasping branches.
> Eccrines all over the body had probably to do with sodium regulation (littoral phase).
> Complicated stuff, but see interesting ideas of Gareth Morgan (son of Elaine) at a...@groups.io.
> Of course, the kudu runners believe we evolved body eccrines to run after antelopes...

So we do have two types of sweating, just as hippos do? I have been wondering about that for a while.
I already understood that hippos have two types of sweat: Red and orange. And that biologists have long concluded that the red acts as a sunscreen and the orange acts as an antiseptic, the latter useful in particular in males cutting each other fighting.

I would then suggest that the two types of human sweat might have similar functions, in a convergent evolution with hippos: Eccrine sweat night be the sunscreen, and apocrine might be the antiseptic.

Op maandag 2 augustus 2021 om 00:00:30 UTC+2 schreef C. H. Engelbrecht:

> > > Sweating is more a sunscreen than thermoregulation. Same function as in hippos.

> > The last word isn't said on human sweating.
> > We have eccrine (watery, at least 2 sorts: emotional & cooling) & apocrine (oily layer) sweating.
> > Eccrine sweating in primates might have begun with volar sweating: grasping branches.
> > Eccrines all over the body had probably to do with sodium regulation (littoral phase).
> > Complicated stuff, but see interesting ideas of Gareth Morgan (son of Elaine) at a...@groups.io.
> > Of course, the kudu runners believe we evolved body eccrines to run after antelopes...

> So we do have two types of sweating, just as hippos do? I have been wondering about that for a while.
> I already understood that hippos have two types of sweat: Red and orange. And that biologists have long concluded that the red acts as a sunscreen and the orange acts as an antiseptic, the latter useful in particular in males cutting each other fighting.

Humans have apocrine sweating & 2 sorts of eccrine sweating AFAIK (at least),
but how exactly these evolved I don't know.

> I would then suggest that the two types of human sweat might have similar functions, in a convergent evolution with hippos: Eccrine sweat night be the sunscreen, and apocrine might be the antiseptic.

On Sunday, August 1, 2021 at 6:00:30 PM UTC-4, C. H. Engelbrecht wrote:
> søndag den 1. august 2021 kl. 14.17.08 UTC+2 skrev littor...@gmail.com:
> > Op zaterdag 31 juli 2021 om 08:08:35 UTC+2 schreef C. H. Engelbrecht:
> > > Sweating is more a sunscreen than thermoregulation. Same function as in hippos.
> > The last word isn't said on human sweating.
> > We have eccrine (watery, at least 2 sorts: emotional & cooling) & apocrine (oily layer) sweating.
> > Eccrine sweating in primates might have begun with volar sweating: grasping branches.
> > Eccrines all over the body had probably to do with sodium regulation (littoral phase).
> > Complicated stuff, but see interesting ideas of Gareth Morgan (son of Elaine) at a...@groups.io.
> > Of course, the kudu runners believe we evolved body eccrines to run after antelopes...
> So we do have two types of sweating, just as hippos do? I have been wondering about that for a while.
> I already understood that hippos have two types of sweat: Red and orange. And that biologists have long concluded that the red acts as a sunscreen and the orange acts as an antiseptic, the latter useful in particular in males cutting each other fighting.
>
> I would then suggest that the two types of human sweat might have similar functions, in a convergent evolution with hippos: Eccrine sweat night be the sunscreen, and apocrine might be the antiseptic.
Eccrine sweat and tears contain dermcidin, biochemical armor against bacterial pathogens on the skin.
Apocrine scent glands produce scentless fluid, bacteria on the skin consume this fluid and excrete scented excreta which before oxidizing has a fresh scent that quickly turns rancid. More or less.