https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/series/maven

The new DH and Enduro brakes been released, one big change seems to be move
from dot to mineral oil be it their proprietary one.

It’s total overkill for me let alone Frank! As I’m quite happy with Shimano
SLX and twin pots rather than 4 pots, and smaller pistons and calliper,
though I can see why folks who really push might well want more!

Roger Merriman

On 2/23/2024 3:05 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/series/maven
>
> The new DH and Enduro brakes been released, one big change seems to be move
> from dot to mineral oil be it their proprietary one.
>
> It’s total overkill for me let alone Frank! As I’m quite happy with Shimano
> SLX and twin pots rather than 4 pots, and smaller pistons and calliper,
> though I can see why folks who really push might well want more!

I still don't know anybody who complains about needing more braking
ability. I guess there must be some out there - or at least, some who
_think_ they do. The ad seems tailored for extreme mountain biking, so
maybe those guys?

But one problem with bicycling marketing is that people who ride in a
very ordinary way come to believe they must have the very newest cutting
edge equipment, and that it will transform their riding experience.

Aside from that, some technical points:

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but the "Swinglink" sounds like it's
intended to increase overall mechanical advantage depending how much you
move the lever. That sounds similar to the non-linearity built into the
infamous Campy Delta brakes. Maybe this system does it better? Or maybe
not...

More basic: I detest their overuse and total misuse of the word "power."
In engineering, "power" has a very specific meaning: energy transfer per
unit time. I don't believe that's what they're talking about. They may
mean "force multiplication" or something similar, but it's hard to tell
without wasting a lot of time decoding ad-speak.

Their use of power seems close to a kid discussing his favorite
superhero. "His power is that he can make fire shoot out of his palms."
Or whatever.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 21:15:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>But one problem with bicycling marketing is that people who ride in a
>very ordinary way come to believe they must have the very newest cutting
>edge equipment, and that it will transform their riding experience.

I doubt anybody believes the new stuff will " transform their riding
experience," but sometimes it's just plain old fun to have the "very
newest cutting edge equipment" if you have money to have plain old fun
with.

On 2/23/2024 9:15 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/23/2024 3:05 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>
>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/series/maven
>>
>> The new DH and Enduro brakes been released, one big change seems to be
>> move
>> from dot to mineral oil be it their proprietary one.
>>
>> It’s total overkill for me let alone Frank! As I’m quite happy with
>> Shimano
>> SLX and twin pots rather than 4 pots, and smaller pistons and calliper,
>> though I can see why folks who really push might well want more!
>
> I still don't know anybody who complains about needing more braking
> ability. I guess there must be some out there - or at least, some who
> _think_ they do. The ad seems tailored for extreme mountain biking, so
> maybe those guys?

Exactly, there is a clearly defined market for this product. They claim
it crosses over to enduro/XC, which I don't really see at all, but the
DH crowd has always wanted better braking/brake control.

>
> But one problem with bicycling marketing is that people who ride in a
> very ordinary way come to believe they must have the very newest cutting
> edge equipment, and that it will transform their riding experience.
>
> Aside from that, some technical points:
>
> Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but the "Swinglink" sounds like it's
> intended to increase overall mechanical advantage depending how much you
> move the lever. That sounds similar to the non-linearity built into the
> infamous Campy Delta brakes. Maybe this system does it better? Or maybe
> not...

Yes, that's pretty clearly defined in the article

>
> More basic: I detest their overuse and total misuse of the word "power."
> In engineering, "power" has a very specific meaning: energy transfer per
> unit time. I don't believe that's what they're talking about. They may
> mean "force multiplication" or something similar, but it's hard to tell
> without wasting a lot of time decoding ad-speak.
>
> Their use of power seems close to a kid discussing his favorite
> superhero. "His power is that he can make fire shoot out of his palms."
> Or whatever.
>

It's an easily understood term for this application, though a semantic
quibble here is justified.

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 2/23/2024 3:05 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>
>> https://www.sram.com/en/sram/mountain/series/maven
>>
>> The new DH and Enduro brakes been released, one big change seems to be move
>> from dot to mineral oil be it their proprietary one.
>>
>> It’s total overkill for me let alone Frank! As I’m quite happy with Shimano
>> SLX and twin pots rather than 4 pots, and smaller pistons and calliper,
>> though I can see why folks who really push might well want more!
>
> I still don't know anybody who complains about needing more braking
> ability. I guess there must be some out there - or at least, some who
> _think_ they do. The ad seems tailored for extreme mountain biking, so
> maybe those guys?

Well yes that’s why I said DH ie Downhill racers or want a bee’s much like
the iconic Shimano Saints these are big burly bits of kit designed for a
purpose.
>
> But one problem with bicycling marketing is that people who ride in a
> very ordinary way come to believe they must have the very newest cutting
> edge equipment, and that it will transform their riding experience.
>
I don’t do DH but certainly when stuff gets more technical and steep,
better brakes do improve matters the SLX twin pots with the finning pads is
more fade resistant over the older brakes I had on there which I use on the
commute bike now.

And certainly the Gravel bike upgrade from Cable disks to Hydraulic was a
significant upgrade though that was less fade don’t tend to ride such
terrain. More gain in power and significantly less lever strength needed.

> Aside from that, some technical points:
>
> Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but the "Swinglink" sounds like it's
> intended to increase overall mechanical advantage depending how much you
> move the lever. That sounds similar to the non-linearity built into the
> infamous Campy Delta brakes. Maybe this system does it better? Or maybe
> not...
>
Less so more that it will give a progressive feel than linear, Shimano have
“Servowave” which does similar.

> More basic: I detest their overuse and total misuse of the word "power."
> In engineering, "power" has a very specific meaning: energy transfer per
> unit time. I don't believe that's what they're talking about. They may
> mean "force multiplication" or something similar, but it's hard to tell
> without wasting a lot of time decoding ad-speak.
>
Power is Newtons there is graph comparing these to their older model on
all/most articles about them

https://bikerumor.com/sram-maven-dh-disc-brake-initial-review/

> Their use of power seems close to a kid discussing his favorite
> superhero. "His power is that he can make fire shoot out of his palms."
> Or whatever.
>

Roger Merriman

Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 21:15:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> But one problem with bicycling marketing is that people who ride in a
>> very ordinary way come to believe they must have the very newest cutting
>> edge equipment, and that it will transform their riding experience.
>
> I doubt anybody believes the new stuff will " transform their riding
> experience," but sometimes it's just plain old fun to have the "very
> newest cutting edge equipment" if you have money to have plain old fun
> with.
>

The shift from cable to hydraulic disks on my Gravel bike was fairly
transformative to be honest, it’s hardly high end stuff middle end at best
but made a huge impact in both performance and maintenance, ie didn’t die
in the wet winter weather due to dirt ingress.

Roger Merriman

On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 23:06:58 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 21:15:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> But one problem with bicycling marketing is that people who ride in a
>>> very ordinary way come to believe they must have the very newest cutting
>>> edge equipment, and that it will transform their riding experience.
>>
>> I doubt anybody believes the new stuff will " transform their riding
>> experience," but sometimes it's just plain old fun to have the "very
>> newest cutting edge equipment" if you have money to have plain old fun
>> with.
>>
>
>The shift from cable to hydraulic disks on my Gravel bike was fairly
>transformative to be honest, it’s hardly high end stuff middle end at best
>but made a huge impact in both performance and maintenance, ie didn’t die
>in the wet winter weather due to dirt ingress.
>
>Roger Merriman

I keep thinking about converting to hydraulic brakes, I just haven't
gotten around to it. At my age, putting things off can lead to never
having to do them at all.

On 2/24/2024 5:51 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> More basic: I detest their overuse and total misuse of the word "power."
>> In engineering, "power" has a very specific meaning: energy transfer per
>> unit time. I don't believe that's what they're talking about. They may
>> mean "force multiplication" or something similar, but it's hard to tell
>> without wasting a lot of time decoding ad-speak.
>>
> Power is Newtons there is graph comparing these to their older model on
> all/most articles about them
>
> https://bikerumor.com/sram-maven-dh-disc-brake-initial-review/

Nope. Power is energy transferred per unit time. Energy has units of
force times distance, so power has units of force times distance divided
by time.

In the SI system, Newtons measure _force_, not power. Distance is
meters. One Newton*meter is a Joule, the unit of energy.

Power is Newton*meter/second, or Joules/second, or Watts.

Their graph has two axes, each measuring force, not power. The graph is
really expressing the ratio of forces, AKA the mechanical advantage.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 21:33:29 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 2/24/2024 5:51 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> More basic: I detest their overuse and total misuse of the word "power."
>>> In engineering, "power" has a very specific meaning: energy transfer per
>>> unit time. I don't believe that's what they're talking about. They may
>>> mean "force multiplication" or something similar, but it's hard to tell
>>> without wasting a lot of time decoding ad-speak.
>>>
>> Power is Newtons there is graph comparing these to their older model on
>> all/most articles about them
>>
>> https://bikerumor.com/sram-maven-dh-disc-brake-initial-review/
>
>Nope. Power is energy transferred per unit time. Energy has units of
>force times distance, so power has units of force times distance divided
>by time.
>
>In the SI system, Newtons measure _force_, not power. Distance is
>meters. One Newton*meter is a Joule, the unit of energy.
>
>Power is Newton*meter/second, or Joules/second, or Watts.
>
>Their graph has two axes, each measuring force, not power. The graph is
>really expressing the ratio of forces, AKA the mechanical advantage.

<Good grief>

Narcissists are known for being highly self-centered and for having an
inflated sense of self-importance. They often seek out attention and
validation from others and can become easily offended or upset when
they don’t get the attention they feel they deserve. This can lead to
them starting arguments with others in order to get the attention and
validation they crave. Narcissists may also start arguments as a way
to control or manipulate others. They may do this by trying to provoke
an emotional response from the other person or by gaslighting them
into doubting their own memories or perceptions. Whatever the reason,
narcissists starting arguments is a common occurrence that can be
frustrating and exhausting for those on the receiving end.

https://www.mentalhealthmatters-cofe.org/why-narcissists-start-arguments/

Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 23:06:58 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 21:15:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> But one problem with bicycling marketing is that people who ride in a
>>>> very ordinary way come to believe they must have the very newest cutting
>>>> edge equipment, and that it will transform their riding experience.
>>>
>>> I doubt anybody believes the new stuff will " transform their riding
>>> experience," but sometimes it's just plain old fun to have the "very
>>> newest cutting edge equipment" if you have money to have plain old fun
>>> with.
>>>
>>
>> The shift from cable to hydraulic disks on my Gravel bike was fairly
>> transformative to be honest, it’s hardly high end stuff middle end at best
>> but made a huge impact in both performance and maintenance, ie didn’t die
>> in the wet winter weather due to dirt ingress.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> I keep thinking about converting to hydraulic brakes, I just haven't
> gotten around to it. At my age, putting things off can lead to never
> having to do them at all.
>
Considering how you describe your rides not sure you’d need them, they are
easier to live with in that they don’t need maintenance bar, changing pads
with once every few years bleeding, less so with mineral than dot.

For mine and similar folks cable was always a stop gap, particularly off
road good brakes make a huge difference.

Roger Merriman

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 2/24/2024 5:51 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> More basic: I detest their overuse and total misuse of the word "power."
>>> In engineering, "power" has a very specific meaning: energy transfer per
>>> unit time. I don't believe that's what they're talking about. They may
>>> mean "force multiplication" or something similar, but it's hard to tell
>>> without wasting a lot of time decoding ad-speak.
>>>
>> Power is Newtons there is graph comparing these to their older model on
>> all/most articles about them
>>
>> https://bikerumor.com/sram-maven-dh-disc-brake-initial-review/
>
> Nope. Power is energy transferred per unit time. Energy has units of
> force times distance, so power has units of force times distance divided
> by time.
>
Correct I should have been rather clearer. This said folks don’t ask for
brakes with more force but power.

> In the SI system, Newtons measure _force_, not power. Distance is
> meters. One Newton*meter is a Joule, the unit of energy.
>
> Power is Newton*meter/second, or Joules/second, or Watts.
>
> Their graph has two axes, each measuring force, not power. The graph is
> really expressing the ratio of forces, AKA the mechanical advantage.
>

For the article it is explained clearly that the new brake is both more
powerful with lighter touch, and seems to be clearly much more so.

Roger Merriman

On Sun, 25 Feb 2024 10:11:32 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 23:06:58 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 21:15:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> But one problem with bicycling marketing is that people who ride in a
>>>>> very ordinary way come to believe they must have the very newest cutting
>>>>> edge equipment, and that it will transform their riding experience.
>>>>
>>>> I doubt anybody believes the new stuff will " transform their riding
>>>> experience," but sometimes it's just plain old fun to have the "very
>>>> newest cutting edge equipment" if you have money to have plain old fun
>>>> with.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The shift from cable to hydraulic disks on my Gravel bike was fairly
>>> transformative to be honest, it?s hardly high end stuff middle end at best
>>> but made a huge impact in both performance and maintenance, ie didn?t die
>>> in the wet winter weather due to dirt ingress.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> I keep thinking about converting to hydraulic brakes, I just haven't
>> gotten around to it. At my age, putting things off can lead to never
>> having to do them at all.
>>
>Considering how you describe your rides not sure you’d need them, they are
>easier to live with in that they don’t need maintenance bar, changing pads
>with once every few years bleeding, less so with mineral than dot.
>
>For mine and similar folks cable was always a stop gap, particularly off
>road good brakes make a huge difference.
>
>Roger Merriman

Nope, I don't need them at all, but they'd be something new and
different.

Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Feb 2024 10:11:32 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 23:06:58 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 21:15:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> But one problem with bicycling marketing is that people who ride in a
>>>>>> very ordinary way come to believe they must have the very newest cutting
>>>>>> edge equipment, and that it will transform their riding experience.
>>>>>
>>>>> I doubt anybody believes the new stuff will " transform their riding
>>>>> experience," but sometimes it's just plain old fun to have the "very
>>>>> newest cutting edge equipment" if you have money to have plain old fun
>>>>> with.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The shift from cable to hydraulic disks on my Gravel bike was fairly
>>>> transformative to be honest, it?s hardly high end stuff middle end at best
>>>> but made a huge impact in both performance and maintenance, ie didn?t die
>>>> in the wet winter weather due to dirt ingress.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> I keep thinking about converting to hydraulic brakes, I just haven't
>>> gotten around to it. At my age, putting things off can lead to never
>>> having to do them at all.
>>>
>> Considering how you describe your rides not sure you’d need them, they are
>> easier to live with in that they don’t need maintenance bar, changing pads
>> with once every few years bleeding, less so with mineral than dot.
>>
>> For mine and similar folks cable was always a stop gap, particularly off
>> road good brakes make a huge difference.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>
> Nope, I don't need them at all, but they'd be something new and
> different.
>

I guess really very few need them! Though as I have ridden off road with
various rim brakes which require quite a bit of hand force hence being
notorious for arm pump at bottoms of downhill runs!

And my Gravel bike did have cable disks, while it’s not a need it quite a
significant difference or upgrade.

Roger Merriman

On 2/24/2024 6:06 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 21:15:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> But one problem with bicycling marketing is that people who ride in a
>>> very ordinary way come to believe they must have the very newest cutting
>>> edge equipment, and that it will transform their riding experience.
>>
>> I doubt anybody believes the new stuff will " transform their riding
>> experience," but sometimes it's just plain old fun to have the "very
>> newest cutting edge equipment" if you have money to have plain old fun
>> with.
>>
>
> The shift from cable to hydraulic disks on my Gravel bike was fairly
> transformative to be honest, it’s hardly high end stuff middle end at best
> but made a huge impact in both performance and maintenance, ie didn’t die
> in the wet winter weather due to dirt ingress.
>
> Roger Merriman
>

I have hydraulic discs on my FS and cable discs on my hardtail. There is
a noticeable difference, but I wouldn't call it 'transformative'. Very
clearly this is a YMMV issue. For me, the 'transformative' experience
was simply switching to disc brakes. I converted my hardtail over from
rim brakes and the difference was, in fact (for me) 'transformative'.

On 2/25/2024 3:55 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 21:33:29 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2/24/2024 5:51 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> More basic: I detest their overuse and total misuse of the word "power."
>>>> In engineering, "power" has a very specific meaning: energy transfer per
>>>> unit time. I don't believe that's what they're talking about. They may
>>>> mean "force multiplication" or something similar, but it's hard to tell
>>>> without wasting a lot of time decoding ad-speak.
>>>>
>>> Power is Newtons there is graph comparing these to their older model on
>>> all/most articles about them
>>>
>>> https://bikerumor.com/sram-maven-dh-disc-brake-initial-review/
>>
>> Nope. Power is energy transferred per unit time. Energy has units of
>> force times distance, so power has units of force times distance divided
>> by time.
>>
>> In the SI system, Newtons measure _force_, not power. Distance is
>> meters. One Newton*meter is a Joule, the unit of energy.
>>
>> Power is Newton*meter/second, or Joules/second, or Watts.
>>
>> Their graph has two axes, each measuring force, not power. The graph is
>> really expressing the ratio of forces, AKA the mechanical advantage.
>
> <Good grief>
>
> Narcissists are known for being highly self-centered and for having an
> inflated sense of self-importance. They often seek out attention and
> validation from others and can become easily offended or upset when
> they don’t get the attention they feel they deserve. This can lead to
> them starting arguments with others in order to get the attention and
> validation they crave. Narcissists may also start arguments as a way
> to control or manipulate others. They may do this by trying to provoke
> an emotional response from the other person or by gaslighting them
> into doubting their own memories or perceptions. Whatever the reason,
> narcissists starting arguments is a common occurrence that can be
> frustrating and exhausting for those on the receiving end.
>
> https://www.mentalhealthmatters-cofe.org/why-narcissists-start-arguments/

You are such a useless asshole. Now describing the the correct usage of
force vs power is an expression of narcissism? Is your life _really_
that vapid and useless?

No, this is just another example of you begging for franks attention and
approval. Gawd I hope I _never_ end up like you.

zen cycle <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/24/2024 6:06 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 21:15:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> But one problem with bicycling marketing is that people who ride in a
>>>> very ordinary way come to believe they must have the very newest cutting
>>>> edge equipment, and that it will transform their riding experience.
>>>
>>> I doubt anybody believes the new stuff will " transform their riding
>>> experience," but sometimes it's just plain old fun to have the "very
>>> newest cutting edge equipment" if you have money to have plain old fun
>>> with.
>>>
>>
>> The shift from cable to hydraulic disks on my Gravel bike was fairly
>> transformative to be honest, it’s hardly high end stuff middle end at best
>> but made a huge impact in both performance and maintenance, ie didn’t die
>> in the wet winter weather due to dirt ingress.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>>
>
> I have hydraulic discs on my FS and cable discs on my hardtail. There is
> a noticeable difference, but I wouldn't call it 'transformative'. Very
> clearly this is a YMMV issue. For me, the 'transformative' experience
> was simply switching to disc brakes. I converted my hardtail over from
> rim brakes and the difference was, in fact (for me) 'transformative'.
>

Possibly weight? I’m 95kg or thereabouts I have noticed some lighter
roadies being fine with cable disks, where as I found even on road they
were subpar at least on the steeper wetter hills.

Clearly on flatter easier stuff like commuting or even club runs into the
Surrey hills that’s fine, after all rims worked fine as well.

For me they where much closer to rim brakes ie the advantages of cable
operated disks over rim was marginal bar the tire clearance and the frame
being able to be upgraded easily.

Roger Merriman

zen cycle <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/25/2024 3:55 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 21:33:29 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/24/2024 5:51 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> More basic: I detest their overuse and total misuse of the word "power."
>>>>> In engineering, "power" has a very specific meaning: energy transfer per
>>>>> unit time. I don't believe that's what they're talking about. They may
>>>>> mean "force multiplication" or something similar, but it's hard to tell
>>>>> without wasting a lot of time decoding ad-speak.
>>>>>
>>>> Power is Newtons there is graph comparing these to their older model on
>>>> all/most articles about them
>>>>
>>>> https://bikerumor.com/sram-maven-dh-disc-brake-initial-review/
>>>
>>> Nope. Power is energy transferred per unit time. Energy has units of
>>> force times distance, so power has units of force times distance divided
>>> by time.
>>>
>>> In the SI system, Newtons measure _force_, not power. Distance is
>>> meters. One Newton*meter is a Joule, the unit of energy.
>>>
>>> Power is Newton*meter/second, or Joules/second, or Watts.
>>>
>>> Their graph has two axes, each measuring force, not power. The graph is
>>> really expressing the ratio of forces, AKA the mechanical advantage.
>>
>> <Good grief>
>>
>> Narcissists are known for being highly self-centered and for having an
>> inflated sense of self-importance. They often seek out attention and
>> validation from others and can become easily offended or upset when
>> they don’t get the attention they feel they deserve. This can lead to
>> them starting arguments with others in order to get the attention and
>> validation they crave. Narcissists may also start arguments as a way
>> to control or manipulate others. They may do this by trying to provoke
>> an emotional response from the other person or by gaslighting them
>> into doubting their own memories or perceptions. Whatever the reason,
>> narcissists starting arguments is a common occurrence that can be
>> frustrating and exhausting for those on the receiving end.
>>
>> https://www.mentalhealthmatters-cofe.org/why-narcissists-start-arguments/
>
> You are such a useless asshole. Now describing the the correct usage of
> force vs power is an expression of narcissism? Is your life _really_
> that vapid and useless?
>
> No, this is just another example of you begging for franks attention and
> approval. Gawd I hope I _never_ end up like you.
>

He’s really obsessed!

Roger Merriman

On 2/25/2024 8:50 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> zen cycle <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2/24/2024 6:06 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 21:15:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> But one problem with bicycling marketing is that people who ride in a
>>>>> very ordinary way come to believe they must have the very newest cutting
>>>>> edge equipment, and that it will transform their riding experience.
>>>>
>>>> I doubt anybody believes the new stuff will " transform their riding
>>>> experience," but sometimes it's just plain old fun to have the "very
>>>> newest cutting edge equipment" if you have money to have plain old fun
>>>> with.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The shift from cable to hydraulic disks on my Gravel bike was fairly
>>> transformative to be honest, it’s hardly high end stuff middle end at best
>>> but made a huge impact in both performance and maintenance, ie didn’t die
>>> in the wet winter weather due to dirt ingress.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>
>> I have hydraulic discs on my FS and cable discs on my hardtail. There is
>> a noticeable difference, but I wouldn't call it 'transformative'. Very
>> clearly this is a YMMV issue. For me, the 'transformative' experience
>> was simply switching to disc brakes. I converted my hardtail over from
>> rim brakes and the difference was, in fact (for me) 'transformative'.
>>
>
> Possibly weight? I’m 95kg or thereabouts I have noticed some lighter
> roadies being fine with cable disks, where as I found even on road they
> were subpar at least on the steeper wetter hills.

That's a valid point. You're a big boy, I'm one of those skinny little
roadies you could never get draft from (~65Kg). Certainly the extra 30Kg
on a long steep downhill makes braking more challenging, but I think
that might be as much a function of the cable itself. I run a 1.8mm
cable vs a 1.5, then of course with cable brakes the routing can make a
dramatic difference. Challenges like these go away (for the most part)
with hydraulics. When I grab a handful of brake on the cables vs
hydraulics, I _do_ feel a big difference, but 'panic' stops aren't
something I experience much off-road.

>
> Clearly on flatter easier stuff like commuting or even club runs into the
> Surrey hills that’s fine, after all rims worked fine as well.

That was the biggest difference for me - even with a 1.8 mm cable, the
rear brake sponginess from hosing flex and seat stay flex (my hard tail
is titanium) vs the disc mount was 'transformative'.

>
> For me they where much closer to rim brakes ie the advantages of cable
> operated disks over rim was marginal bar the tire clearance and the frame
> being able to be upgraded easily.

I suspect if I was trying to stop an extra 30Kg on a steep downhill my
experience would be different as well.

>
> Roger Merriman
>

On Sun, 25 Feb 2024 13:50:57 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>zen cycle <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2/25/2024 3:55 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>> On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 21:33:29 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/24/2024 5:51 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> More basic: I detest their overuse and total misuse of the word "power."
>>>>>> In engineering, "power" has a very specific meaning: energy transfer per
>>>>>> unit time. I don't believe that's what they're talking about. They may
>>>>>> mean "force multiplication" or something similar, but it's hard to tell
>>>>>> without wasting a lot of time decoding ad-speak.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Power is Newtons there is graph comparing these to their older model on
>>>>> all/most articles about them
>>>>>
>>>>> https://bikerumor.com/sram-maven-dh-disc-brake-initial-review/
>>>>
>>>> Nope. Power is energy transferred per unit time. Energy has units of
>>>> force times distance, so power has units of force times distance divided
>>>> by time.
>>>>
>>>> In the SI system, Newtons measure _force_, not power. Distance is
>>>> meters. One Newton*meter is a Joule, the unit of energy.
>>>>
>>>> Power is Newton*meter/second, or Joules/second, or Watts.
>>>>
>>>> Their graph has two axes, each measuring force, not power. The graph is
>>>> really expressing the ratio of forces, AKA the mechanical advantage.
>>>
>>> <Good grief>
>>>
>>> Narcissists are known for being highly self-centered and for having an
>>> inflated sense of self-importance. They often seek out attention and
>>> validation from others and can become easily offended or upset when
>>> they don’t get the attention they feel they deserve. This can lead to
>>> them starting arguments with others in order to get the attention and
>>> validation they crave. Narcissists may also start arguments as a way
>>> to control or manipulate others. They may do this by trying to provoke
>>> an emotional response from the other person or by gaslighting them
>>> into doubting their own memories or perceptions. Whatever the reason,
>>> narcissists starting arguments is a common occurrence that can be
>>> frustrating and exhausting for those on the receiving end.
>>>
>>> https://www.mentalhealthmatters-cofe.org/why-narcissists-start-arguments/
>>
>> You are such a useless asshole. Now describing the the correct usage of
>> force vs power is an expression of narcissism? Is your life _really_
>> that vapid and useless?
>>
>> No, this is just another example of you begging for franks attention and
>> approval. Gawd I hope I _never_ end up like you.
>>
>
>He’s really obsessed!
>
>Roger Merriman

Krygowski began berating me a year and half ago simply because I said
I might have more bicycle skills and experience than him. Apparently,
that triggered him and he has continued that regularly ever since. I'm
having fun researching and explaining to everyone why he's doing it,
so I'll continue. The more he does it, the more he fits the pattern of
what I'm saying.

As for Junior, I have no problem with his nonsense rhetoric so mostly
I ignore him.

All this is for me, just a fun little diversion from my writing and my
financial affairs, so I'm already on my computer.

On Sun Feb 25 12:18:24 2024 Roger Merriman wrote:
> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
> > On Sun, 25 Feb 2024 10:11:32 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
> >>> On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 23:06:58 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
> >>>>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 21:15:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> But one problem with bicycling marketing is that people who ride in a
> >>>>>> very ordinary way come to believe they must have the very newest cutting
> >>>>>> edge equipment, and that it will transform their riding experience.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I doubt anybody believes the new stuff will " transform their riding
> >>>>> experience," but sometimes it's just plain old fun to have the "very
> >>>>> newest cutting edge equipment" if you have money to have plain old fun
> >>>>> with.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The shift from cable to hydraulic disks on my Gravel bike was fairly
> >>>> transformative to be honest, it?s hardly high end stuff middle end at best
> >>>> but made a huge impact in both performance and maintenance, ie didn?t die
> >>>> in the wet winter weather due to dirt ingress.
> >>>>
> >>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>
> >>> I keep thinking about converting to hydraulic brakes, I just haven't
> >>> gotten around to it. At my age, putting things off can lead to never
> >>> having to do them at all.
> >>>
> >> Considering how you describe your rides not sure youd need them, they are
> >> easier to live with in that they dont need maintenance bar, changing pads
> >> with once every few years bleeding, less so with mineral than dot.
> >>
> >> For mine and similar folks cable was always a stop gap, particularly off
> >> road good brakes make a huge difference.
> >>
> >> Roger Merriman
> >
> > Nope, I don't need them at all, but they'd be something new and
> > different.
> >
>
> I guess really very few need them! Though as I have ridden off road with
> various rim brakes which require quite a bit of hand force hence being
> notorious for arm pump at bottoms of downhill runs!
>
> And my Gravel bike did have cable disks, while it?s not a need it quite a
> significant difference or upgrade.
>
> Roger Merriman
>

The Shimano 10 speed rim brakes are very strong. Quite a bit better than Campy.

On 2/25/2024 4:11 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>> On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 23:06:58 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 21:15:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> But one problem with bicycling marketing is that people who ride in a
>>>>> very ordinary way come to believe they must have the very newest cutting
>>>>> edge equipment, and that it will transform their riding experience.
>>>>
>>>> I doubt anybody believes the new stuff will " transform their riding
>>>> experience," but sometimes it's just plain old fun to have the "very
>>>> newest cutting edge equipment" if you have money to have plain old fun
>>>> with.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The shift from cable to hydraulic disks on my Gravel bike was fairly
>>> transformative to be honest, it’s hardly high end stuff middle end at best
>>> but made a huge impact in both performance and maintenance, ie didn’t die
>>> in the wet winter weather due to dirt ingress.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>
>> I keep thinking about converting to hydraulic brakes, I just haven't
>> gotten around to it. At my age, putting things off can lead to never
>> having to do them at all.
>>
> Considering how you describe your rides not sure you’d need them, they are
> easier to live with in that they don’t need maintenance bar, changing pads
> with once every few years bleeding, less so with mineral than dot.
>
> For mine and similar folks cable was always a stop gap, particularly off
> road good brakes make a huge difference.
>
> Roger Merriman
>

I changed out a worn shifter set Friday for an old customer
who had been on US national cycling team and had a stellar
cycling career in the 1970s/1980s. He asked about all the
new race bikes with fat (28mm) tires and disc brakes with
through axles. After reviewing discs features/foibles for a
few minutes I asked him if he had ever experienced a lack of
braking power or response.

He said no, and he noted that Mr Hampsten's impressive Gavia
descent (we both knew him well and we both worked with him)
in the snow was limited by body core and finger temperature,
not braking power.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/25/2024 12:05 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> I changed out a worn shifter set Friday for an old customer who had been
> on US national cycling team and had a stellar cycling career in the
> 1970s/1980s. He asked about all the new race bikes with fat (28mm) tires
> and disc brakes with through axles. After reviewing discs
> features/foibles for a few minutes I asked him if he had ever
> experienced a lack of braking power or response.
>
> He said no, and he noted that Mr Hampsten's impressive Gavia descent (we
> both knew him well and we both worked with him) in the snow was limited
> by body core and finger temperature, not braking power.

Very good points, in my view.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/25/2024 7:32 AM, zen cycle wrote:
>
> I have hydraulic discs on my FS and cable discs on my hardtail. There is
> a noticeable difference, but I wouldn't call it 'transformative'. Very
> clearly this is a YMMV issue. For me, the 'transformative' experience
> was simply switching to disc brakes. I converted my hardtail over from
> rim brakes and the difference was, in fact (for me) 'transformative'.

I suspect the biggest "YMMV" factor is true off-road mountain biking
with significant elevation changes, vs. road riding.

Back in my mountain biking days, I only rarely did off road rides in
really hilly country. Flatter terrain never demanded much of those brakes.

And I've done mountains and lots of steep hills on road bikes, including
heavily laden with touring gear and/or on our tandem. Again, I never
experienced brake problems. The only times I recall being somewhat
concerned was on one Rocky Mountain descent with full packs, and another
similar but shorter one in West Virginia. I wondered "How hot will my
rims get?" But all was fine. I can't imagine many road riders have
greater demands.

Descending ski slopes on a mountain bike would be a different matter
entirely, as would repeating steep off-road descents over and over.

--
- Frank Krygowski

zen cycle <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/25/2024 8:50 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> zen cycle <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 2/24/2024 6:06 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 21:15:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> But one problem with bicycling marketing is that people who ride in a
>>>>>> very ordinary way come to believe they must have the very newest cutting
>>>>>> edge equipment, and that it will transform their riding experience.
>>>>>
>>>>> I doubt anybody believes the new stuff will " transform their riding
>>>>> experience," but sometimes it's just plain old fun to have the "very
>>>>> newest cutting edge equipment" if you have money to have plain old fun
>>>>> with.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The shift from cable to hydraulic disks on my Gravel bike was fairly
>>>> transformative to be honest, it’s hardly high end stuff middle end at best
>>>> but made a huge impact in both performance and maintenance, ie didn’t die
>>>> in the wet winter weather due to dirt ingress.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have hydraulic discs on my FS and cable discs on my hardtail. There is
>>> a noticeable difference, but I wouldn't call it 'transformative'. Very
>>> clearly this is a YMMV issue. For me, the 'transformative' experience
>>> was simply switching to disc brakes. I converted my hardtail over from
>>> rim brakes and the difference was, in fact (for me) 'transformative'.
>>>
>>
>> Possibly weight? I’m 95kg or thereabouts I have noticed some lighter
>> roadies being fine with cable disks, where as I found even on road they
>> were subpar at least on the steeper wetter hills.
>
> That's a valid point. You're a big boy, I'm one of those skinny little
> roadies you could never get draft from (~65Kg). Certainly the extra 30Kg
> on a long steep downhill makes braking more challenging, but I think
> that might be as much a function of the cable itself. I run a 1.8mm
> cable vs a 1.5, then of course with cable brakes the routing can make a
> dramatic difference. Challenges like these go away (for the most part)
> with hydraulics. When I grab a handful of brake on the cables vs
> hydraulics, I _do_ feel a big difference, but 'panic' stops aren't
> something I experience much off-road.
>
Don’t think panic stops are common anywhere, this said I’ll use quite large
amounts of braking off road MTB in particular.

The gravel bike really can’t brake as hard, the MTB can dig in as where.

And on road that sort of stuff just doesn’t happen, might brake for a
hairpin perhaps but it’s nothing like what I’d do with the MTB.

Which makes sense as road and Gravel bikes seems to top out at 160mm vs
220mm for MTB
>>
>> Clearly on flatter easier stuff like commuting or even club runs into the
>> Surrey hills that’s fine, after all rims worked fine as well.
>
> That was the biggest difference for me - even with a 1.8 mm cable, the
> rear brake sponginess from hosing flex and seat stay flex (my hard tail
> is titanium) vs the disc mount was 'transformative'.
>
I didn’t notice the sponginess though at time it’s lack of power hence
wooden feeling, and so on was more to mind I did try a number of callipers
at the time.
>>
>> For me they where much closer to rim brakes ie the advantages of cable
>> operated disks over rim was marginal bar the tire clearance and the frame
>> being able to be upgraded easily.
>
> I suspect if I was trying to stop an extra 30Kg on a steep downhill my
> experience would be different as well.

>
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>>
>
>
Roger Merriman

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Sun Feb 25 12:18:24 2024 Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 25 Feb 2024 10:11:32 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 24 Feb 2024 23:06:58 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 21:15:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But one problem with bicycling marketing is that people who ride in a
>>>>>>>> very ordinary way come to believe they must have the very newest cutting
>>>>>>>> edge equipment, and that it will transform their riding experience.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I doubt anybody believes the new stuff will " transform their riding
>>>>>>> experience," but sometimes it's just plain old fun to have the "very
>>>>>>> newest cutting edge equipment" if you have money to have plain old fun
>>>>>>> with.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The shift from cable to hydraulic disks on my Gravel bike was fairly
>>>>>> transformative to be honest, it?s hardly high end stuff middle end at best
>>>>>> but made a huge impact in both performance and maintenance, ie didn?t die
>>>>>> in the wet winter weather due to dirt ingress.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>
>>>>> I keep thinking about converting to hydraulic brakes, I just haven't
>>>>> gotten around to it. At my age, putting things off can lead to never
>>>>> having to do them at all.
>>>>>
>>>> Considering how you describe your rides not sure youd need them, they are
>>>> easier to live with in that they dont need maintenance bar, changing pads
>>>> with once every few years bleeding, less so with mineral than dot.
>>>>
>>>> For mine and similar folks cable was always a stop gap, particularly off
>>>> road good brakes make a huge difference.
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> Nope, I don't need them at all, but they'd be something new and
>>> different.
>>>
>>
>> I guess really very few need them! Though as I have ridden off road with
>> various rim brakes which require quite a bit of hand force hence being
>> notorious for arm pump at bottoms of downhill runs!
>>
>> And my Gravel bike did have cable disks, while it?s not a need it quite a
>> significant difference or upgrade.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>>
>
>
>
>
> The Shimano 10 speed rim brakes are very strong. Quite a bit better than Campy.
>

I’m told that the last generation ie direct mount dual pivots where
cracking, never used those I did use 10s shimano brakes and others though
it’s quite a few years back now.

Roger Merriman