John Miles, KE5FX wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:51:46 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> Yup. Grounded-cathode is the usual method with scintillators. You
>> couple the pulses out with a capacitor, so it's not that big a deal.
>
> I seriously do not understand this. With a grounded cathode, the
> signal you're extracting at the anode end is exposed to ripple from
> the PMT supply, without benefit of a multi-megohm divider chain.
> There's also the need to use a DC restorer of some sort to figure out
> where the baseline is. Both of these problems go away with a
> grounded anode. Seems like a no-brainer.
>
> -- john, KE5FX

Right, as far as that goes.

The photocathode is the high-Z end of the photomultiplier, and so most
naturally goes furthest from ground. In free-space applications, we run
the anode near ground and the photocathode at -1 to -2 kV, because the
PC end doesn't draw any cuarrent to speak of.

That makes it easy to get the (largish) anode current out into normal
low-voltage circuitry. (*)

The large scintillator crystal is out there where you can touch it, so
for safety reasons it's good if it's kept near ground.

It's important for sensitivity reasons that the scintillator crystal be
connected to the PMT faceplate through a continuous path with refractive
index at least as large as the glass of the PMT envelope.

The reason is that a major fraction of the light from the scintillator
is incident on its exit facet from angles beyond the critical angle for
CsI -> air.

I suspect that this is where the difficulty lies: If you have diffuse
light in a medium of refractive index n, and want to couple the light
efficiently into air, it turns out that your maximum efficiency is
1/n**2, even with an arbitrarily good AR coating, That's usually a problem.

Sooooo, to avoid losing signal, you want to avoid coupling light from
your scintillator into air.

The most straightforward way to avoid that is to optically-couple the
scintillator to the PMT faceplate, either by direct contact or using
some sort of index oil or gel. OK so far?
It's also good if your detector survives use, though. Putting the
scintillator at ground and the photocathode at -1 kV Photocathode
corrosion due to halide ions drifting through the glass faceplate has
been a real issue for a long time, and the saPower supply ripple is an
easily-soluble problem, especially since a scintillation event is very
bright in PMT terms--you aren't trying to do photon counting.

I've used cascades of PNP cap multipliers to do some pretty fun things
with PMTs, including getting (to me) impressive linearity for analogue
RF modulated detection.

Usually it's important for safety reasons that the metal housing for the
big ugly scintillator crystal is near ground.

Overall, for slowish counting applications, floating the PMT anode is a win.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

(*) That approach is also a good match to the (IME badly overrated)
Cockroft_Walton scheme, where you run each dynode off a tap of a C-W
multiplier. The C-W approach naturally gives you vaguely equally-spaced
taps, and the high-Z end of the C_W matches the high-Z end of the PMT.
It's superficially neat, but has serious problems with linearity and
noise (especially at lower gain), not to mention the super ugly supply
ripple effects.

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Martin Brown wrote:
> On 21/07/2022 07:36, whit3rd wrote:
>> On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 5:55:04 PM UTC-7, John Miles, KE5FX wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:51:46 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>> Yup. Grounded-cathode is the usual method with scintillators. You
>>>> couple the pulses out with a capacitor, so it's not that big a deal.
>>> I seriously do not understand this. With a grounded cathode, the
>>> signal you're extracting at the anode end is exposed to ripple from
>>> the PMT supply...
>>
>> Photomultipliers are current sources; the current gain is 'exposed to
>> ripple from the PMT supply', so that isn't a design feature from which
>> to expect
>> any difference at all.   If the pulses are short, filtering against
>> the ripple (longer duration
>> than the pulses) might not be difficult.   You'll be  rejecting dark
>> current either way.
>
> PMTs were mostly used in pulse counting mode for astronomy. Height of
> the pulse doesn't matter provided that there is one (or not).
>
> Image Photon Counting System, IPCS from Imperial College being the first
> new generation microchannel plate based imaging device in the 1980's.
>
> https://www.ing.iac.es/PR/wht_info/ipcs.html
>
> For the time it was incredibly sensitive (when compared to film or
> CCDs). CCDs improved very rapidly in the following decades.
>>
>> I'd think transformer-coupling would be a natural way to capture
>> pulses while rejecting lower
>> frequency ripple and DC.   In my experience with PMTs  we used good
>> regulated DC power.
>
> My own experience was mostly of ion counting mass spec systems rather
> than photon counting. Deconstructed PMT in a hard vacuum and ion beams
> rather than light. We had to do some elaborate ion optics to provide a
> photon stop to prevent light from the plasma reaching the detector.
>
> Hard vacuum requires stainless steel and no paint so an effective photon
> stop is harder to make than it sounds.

You can use black chrome, though, no?

>
> ISTR that in pulse counting mode it needed dead time correction once the
> count rate got high and that there was a cute way to run it in analogue
> mode by dropping the supply voltage and monitoring the current.
>
> In both cases the supply voltages were as stable as we could reasonably
> make them (more so for the analogue mode). Cross calibrating the
> analogue to pulse counting modes as a function of mass was quite bad for
> the detector but essential if the results were to be meaningful.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_multiplier
>

Yup. The microchannel plate is basically a massively-parallel version
of the Channeltron electron multiplier.

I was looking at Photonis's MCP page the other day, and they were all
smug about nobody using curved or chevron-shaped channels anymore, just
their original version.

The reason for the curved channels, of course, was to force ions to hit
the walls instead of being accelerated directly at the photocathode,
damaging it and causing very very bright ion events.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

John Miles, KE5FX wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:51:46 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> Yup. Grounded-cathode is the usual method with scintillators. You
>> couple the pulses out with a capacitor, so it's not that big a deal.
>
> I seriously do not understand this. With a grounded cathode, the
> signal you're extracting at the anode end is exposed to ripple from
> the PMT supply, without benefit of a multi-megohm divider chain.
> There's also the need to use a DC restorer of some sort to figure out
> where the baseline is. Both of these problems go away with a
> grounded anode. Seems like a no-brainer.
>
> -- john, KE5FX

[fixed a few editing scars]

Right, as far as that goes.

The photocathode is the high-Z end of the photomultiplier, and so most
naturally goes furthest from ground. In free-space applications, we run
the anode near ground and the photocathode at -1 to -2 kV, because the
PC end doesn't draw any cuarrent to speak of.

That makes it easy to get the (largish) anode current out into normal
low-voltage circuitry. (*)

The large scintillator crystal is out there where you can touch it, so
for safety reasons it's good if it's kept near ground.

It's important for sensitivity reasons that the scintillator crystal be
connected to the PMT faceplate through a continuous path with refractive
index at least as large as the glass of the PMT envelope.

The reason is that a major fraction of the light from the scintillator
is incident on its exit facet from angles beyond the critical angle for
CsI -> air.

I suspect that this is where the difficulty lies: If you have diffuse
light in a medium of refractive index n, and want to couple the light
efficiently into air, it turns out that your maximum efficiency is
1/n**2, even with an arbitrarily good AR coating, That's usually a problem.

Sooooo, to avoid losing signal, you want to avoid coupling light from
your scintillator into air.

The most straightforward way to avoid that is to optically-couple the
scintillator to the PMT faceplate, either by direct contact or using
some sort of index oil or gel. OK so far?

It's also good if your detector survives use, though. Putting the
scintillator at ground and the photocathode at -1 kV

|doesn't work well, it turns out.

Photocathode corrosion due to halide ions drifting through the glass
faceplate has been a real issue for a long time, and
| I don't know whether improved faceplate materials have helped that much.

Power supply ripple is an easily-soluble problem, especially since a
scintillation event is very bright in PMT terms--you aren't trying to do
photon counting.

I've used cascades of PNP cap multipliers to do some pretty fun things
with PMTs, including getting (to me) impressive linearity for analogue
RF modulated detection.

Usually it's important for safety reasons that the metal housing for the
big ugly scintillator crystal is near ground.

Overall, for slowish counting applications, floating the PMT anode is a win.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

(*) That approach is also a good match to the (IME badly overrated)
Cockroft_Walton scheme, where you run each dynode off a tap of a C-W
multiplier. The C-W approach naturally gives you vaguely equally-spaced
taps, and the high-Z end of the C_W matches the high-Z end of the PMT.
It's superficially neat, but has serious problems with linearity and
noise (especially at lower gain), not to mention the super ugly supply
ripple effects.

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 12:36:00 +0100, Martin Brown
<'''newspam'''@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

>On 21/07/2022 07:36, whit3rd wrote:
>> On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 5:55:04 PM UTC-7, John Miles, KE5FX wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:51:46 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>> Yup. Grounded-cathode is the usual method with scintillators. You
>>>> couple the pulses out with a capacitor, so it's not that big a deal.
>>> I seriously do not understand this. With a grounded cathode, the
>>> signal you're extracting at the anode end is exposed to ripple from
>>> the PMT supply...
>>
>> Photomultipliers are current sources; the current gain is 'exposed to
>> ripple from the PMT supply', so that isn't a design feature from which to expect
>> any difference at all. If the pulses are short, filtering against the ripple (longer duration
>> than the pulses) might not be difficult. You'll be rejecting dark current either way.
>
>PMTs were mostly used in pulse counting mode for astronomy. Height of
>the pulse doesn't matter provided that there is one (or not).
>
>Image Photon Counting System, IPCS from Imperial College being the first
>new generation microchannel plate based imaging device in the 1980's.
>
>https://www.ing.iac.es/PR/wht_info/ipcs.html
>
>For the time it was incredibly sensitive (when compared to film or
>CCDs). CCDs improved very rapidly in the following decades.
>>
>> I'd think transformer-coupling would be a natural way to capture pulses while rejecting lower
>> frequency ripple and DC. In my experience with PMTs we used good regulated DC power.
>
>My own experience was mostly of ion counting mass spec systems rather
>than photon counting. Deconstructed PMT in a hard vacuum and ion beams
>rather than light. We had to do some elaborate ion optics to provide a
>photon stop to prevent light from the plasma reaching the detector.
>
>Hard vacuum requires stainless steel and no paint so an effective photon
>stop is harder to make than it sounds.
>

We had the opposite problem: detecting the light from a plasma but
blocking the ions that would darken our window. I wanted to do a thing
with angled slats to bounce the light forward but that the ions would
impact, but the semi company stuck with a plate with tiny holes, to
let a little light and a few ions through.

Bad idea, but then they stole our detector circuit so I hope their
windows all darken.

Phil Hobbs wrote:
> John Miles, KE5FX wrote:
<snip long explanation>

I should add, of course, that having a huge E field inside the glass is
bound to reduce the photocathode quantum yield despite the shielding
effect of the PC itself.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 09:14:23 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>John Miles, KE5FX wrote:
>> On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:51:46 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>> Yup. Grounded-cathode is the usual method with scintillators. You
>>> couple the pulses out with a capacitor, so it's not that big a deal.
>>
>> I seriously do not understand this. With a grounded cathode, the
>> signal you're extracting at the anode end is exposed to ripple from
>> the PMT supply, without benefit of a multi-megohm divider chain.
>> There's also the need to use a DC restorer of some sort to figure out
>> where the baseline is. Both of these problems go away with a
>> grounded anode. Seems like a no-brainer.
>>
>> -- john, KE5FX
>
>Right, as far as that goes.
>
>The photocathode is the high-Z end of the photomultiplier, and so most
>naturally goes furthest from ground. In free-space applications, we run
>the anode near ground and the photocathode at -1 to -2 kV, because the
>PC end doesn't draw any cuarrent to speak of.
>
>That makes it easy to get the (largish) anode current out into normal
>low-voltage circuitry. (*)
>
>The large scintillator crystal is out there where you can touch it, so
>for safety reasons it's good if it's kept near ground.
>
>It's important for sensitivity reasons that the scintillator crystal be
>connected to the PMT faceplate through a continuous path with refractive
>index at least as large as the glass of the PMT envelope.
>
>The reason is that a major fraction of the light from the scintillator
>is incident on its exit facet from angles beyond the critical angle for
>CsI -> air.
>
>I suspect that this is where the difficulty lies: If you have diffuse
>light in a medium of refractive index n, and want to couple the light
>efficiently into air, it turns out that your maximum efficiency is
>1/n**2, even with an arbitrarily good AR coating, That's usually a problem.
>
>Sooooo, to avoid losing signal, you want to avoid coupling light from
>your scintillator into air.
>
>The most straightforward way to avoid that is to optically-couple the
>scintillator to the PMT faceplate, either by direct contact or using
>some sort of index oil or gel. OK so far?
>It's also good if your detector survives use, though. Putting the
>scintillator at ground and the photocathode at -1 kV Photocathode
>corrosion due to halide ions drifting through the glass faceplate has
>been a real issue for a long time, and the saPower supply ripple is an
>easily-soluble problem, especially since a scintillation event is very
>bright in PMT terms--you aren't trying to do photon counting.
>
>I've used cascades of PNP cap multipliers to do some pretty fun things
>with PMTs, including getting (to me) impressive linearity for analogue
>RF modulated detection.
>
>Usually it's important for safety reasons that the metal housing for the
>big ugly scintillator crystal is near ground.
>
>Overall, for slowish counting applications, floating the PMT anode is a win.
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs
>
>(*) That approach is also a good match to the (IME badly overrated)
>Cockroft_Walton scheme, where you run each dynode off a tap of a C-W
>multiplier. The C-W approach naturally gives you vaguely equally-spaced
>taps, and the high-Z end of the C_W matches the high-Z end of the PMT.
>It's superficially neat, but has serious problems with linearity and
>noise (especially at lower gain), not to mention the super ugly supply
>ripple effects.

There is the idea of an active capacitor for an RC lowpass filter,
nanely a modest-sized cap whose low end is intelligently driven by an
amp, so it looks like a much bigger cap on the top end.

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 09:14:23 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> John Miles, KE5FX wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:51:46 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>> Yup. Grounded-cathode is the usual method with scintillators. You
>>>> couple the pulses out with a capacitor, so it's not that big a deal.
>>>
>>> I seriously do not understand this. With a grounded cathode, the
>>> signal you're extracting at the anode end is exposed to ripple from
>>> the PMT supply, without benefit of a multi-megohm divider chain.
>>> There's also the need to use a DC restorer of some sort to figure out
>>> where the baseline is. Both of these problems go away with a
>>> grounded anode. Seems like a no-brainer.
>>>
>>> -- john, KE5FX
>>
>> Right, as far as that goes.
>>
>> The photocathode is the high-Z end of the photomultiplier, and so most
>> naturally goes furthest from ground. In free-space applications, we run
>> the anode near ground and the photocathode at -1 to -2 kV, because the
>> PC end doesn't draw any cuarrent to speak of.
>>
>> That makes it easy to get the (largish) anode current out into normal
>> low-voltage circuitry. (*)
>>
>> The large scintillator crystal is out there where you can touch it, so
>> for safety reasons it's good if it's kept near ground.
>>
>> It's important for sensitivity reasons that the scintillator crystal be
>> connected to the PMT faceplate through a continuous path with refractive
>> index at least as large as the glass of the PMT envelope.
>>
>> The reason is that a major fraction of the light from the scintillator
>> is incident on its exit facet from angles beyond the critical angle for
>> CsI -> air.
>>
>> I suspect that this is where the difficulty lies: If you have diffuse
>> light in a medium of refractive index n, and want to couple the light
>> efficiently into air, it turns out that your maximum efficiency is
>> 1/n**2, even with an arbitrarily good AR coating, That's usually a problem.
>>
>> Sooooo, to avoid losing signal, you want to avoid coupling light from
>> your scintillator into air.
>>
>> The most straightforward way to avoid that is to optically-couple the
>> scintillator to the PMT faceplate, either by direct contact or using
>> some sort of index oil or gel. OK so far?
>> It's also good if your detector survives use, though. Putting the
>> scintillator at ground and the photocathode at -1 kV Photocathode
>> corrosion due to halide ions drifting through the glass faceplate has
>> been a real issue for a long time, and the saPower supply ripple is an
>> easily-soluble problem, especially since a scintillation event is very
>> bright in PMT terms--you aren't trying to do photon counting.
>>
>> I've used cascades of PNP cap multipliers to do some pretty fun things
>> with PMTs, including getting (to me) impressive linearity for analogue
>> RF modulated detection.
>>
>> Usually it's important for safety reasons that the metal housing for the
>> big ugly scintillator crystal is near ground.
>>
>> Overall, for slowish counting applications, floating the PMT anode is a win.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>>
>> (*) That approach is also a good match to the (IME badly overrated)
>> Cockroft_Walton scheme, where you run each dynode off a tap of a C-W
>> multiplier. The C-W approach naturally gives you vaguely equally-spaced
>> taps, and the high-Z end of the C_W matches the high-Z end of the PMT.
>> It's superficially neat, but has serious problems with linearity and
>> noise (especially at lower gain), not to mention the super ugly supply
>> ripple effects.
>
> There is the idea of an active capacitor for an RC lowpass filter,
> nanely a modest-sized cap whose low end is intelligently driven by an
> amp, so it looks like a much bigger cap on the top end.

Yup. Back in the long ago (1984ish), I built a power supply filter that
got rid of 10 Vpp of 120 Hz ripple on a 2 kV supply for some piezo
stacks. It worked by lifting the cold end, sensing the hot end via a
100 nF, 3 kV film cap, and wiggling the cold end to keep it still. (It
had some TVS protection too, obviously.)

With an LF356 op amp, I got 100 dB of ripple rejection, which came in
pretty handy. I could probably have done considerably better with that
feedforward trick of Woodward's, where you use another op amp to measure
the error voltage of the main one, and add in its output.

Another approach like that is the Kanner Kap, which wasn't first
invented by Kanner, but he now owns it on account of the cute name.
That's the trick where you use an RC lowpass, and drive the cold end of
the cap with some super beefy amplifier to make the top stay still.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On 21/07/2022 15:25, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

> We had the opposite problem: detecting the light from a plasma but
> blocking the ions that would darken our window. I wanted to do a thing
> with angled slats to bounce the light forward but that the ions would
> impact, but the semi company stuck with a plate with tiny holes, to
> let a little light and a few ions through.

Simplest solution to stop ions going in straight lines (but not
neutrals) is a local magnetic field and some drift length.

> Bad idea, but then they stole our detector circuit so I hope their
> windows all darken.

There is usually plenty of light (and heat) from a 8000K plasma (at
least one at 1 bar like ours). There is a pinhole sampling cone into it.

Protecting the instrument from coolant failure and the hard vacuum from
plasma flame out was a major part of the safety critical side of things.
It was worse in the early days when the vacuum pumps were diffusion. Any
sort of cock up and you had hot silicone oil all over the place.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Martin Brown wrote:
> On 21/07/2022 15:25, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>
>> We had the opposite problem: detecting the light from a plasma but
>> blocking the ions that would darken our window. I wanted to do a thing
>> with angled slats to bounce the light forward but that the ions would
>> impact, but the semi company stuck with a plate with tiny holes, to
>> let a little light and a few ions through.
>
> Simplest solution to stop ions going in straight lines (but not
> neutrals) is a local magnetic field and some drift length.
>
>> Bad idea, but then they stole our detector circuit so I hope their
>> windows all darken.
>
> There is usually plenty of light (and heat) from a 8000K plasma (at
> least one at 1 bar like ours). There is a pinhole sampling cone into it.
>
> Protecting the instrument from coolant failure and the hard vacuum from
> plasma flame out was a major part of the safety critical side of things.
> It was worse in the early days when the vacuum pumps were diffusion. Any
> sort of cock up and you had hot silicone oil all over the place.
>

Yeah, I used to own a Denton 502 bell-jar evaporator that had an oil
diffusion pump. Getting that sucker cleaned up after a roughing-pump
incident was a huge pain.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 7:31:07 AM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> I should add, of course, that having a huge E field inside the glass is
> bound to reduce the photocathode quantum yield despite the shielding
> effect of the PC itself.

Yep, I think it's clear enough that allowing the faceplate to act as an
HV dielectric is a Bad Idea. But it also seems easier to avoid doing
that by tying the exterior frame to the cathode as the manufacturer has
done here, than to swap the polarity and deal with the HV at the
other end where the signal is extracted.

As far as the need to insulate the crystal is concerned, you'll need to
do that anyway to avoid exposing the user to thallium, I'd imagine. :-P

The question of whether it makes a difference in terms of ripple
is worth thinking through a little further. I see whit3rd's point, but
the effect of stray C seems worth considering before concluding that
the polarity doesn't make a difference.

-- john, KE5FX

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

> Mike Monett wrote:
>> Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike Monett <spamme@not.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> It should be easy to add a simple inverter and ground the cathode.
>>>
>>> Oops - it is already grounded.
>>
>> And the positive anode should eliminate any ion migration through the
>> glass.
>>
>
> The anode isn't vulnerable to corrosion because it's not deposited on
> the glass, and it's a nice beefy piece of metal, compared with the very
> thin transparent photocathode.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs

The anode pin goes through the glass. Metal ions are positively charged, so
they are repelled by the positive anode. This eliminates any metal ion
migration through the glass.

--
MRM

"John Miles, KE5FX" <jmiles@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:51:46 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>> Yup. Grounded-cathode is the usual method with scintillators. You
>> couple the pulses out with a capacitor, so it's not that big a deal.
>
> I seriously do not understand this. With a grounded cathode, the
> signal you're extracting at the anode end is exposed to ripple from
> the PMT supply, without benefit of a multi-megohm divider chain.
> There's also the need to use a DC restorer of some sort to figure out
> where the baseline is. Both of these problems go away with a
> grounded anode. Seems like a no-brainer.
>
> -- john, KE5FX

The capacitor will have high voltage on it. This could destroy any electroncs
that inadvertently got connected badly.

You don't need to couple to the anode. Just take the signal off the cathode
like the old cathode followers of yesteryear.

--
MRM

Mike Monett wrote:
> "John Miles, KE5FX" <jmiles@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:51:46 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>> Yup. Grounded-cathode is the usual method with scintillators. You
>>> couple the pulses out with a capacitor, so it's not that big a deal.
>>
>> I seriously do not understand this. With a grounded cathode, the
>> signal you're extracting at the anode end is exposed to ripple from
>> the PMT supply, without benefit of a multi-megohm divider chain.
>> There's also the need to use a DC restorer of some sort to figure out
>> where the baseline is. Both of these problems go away with a
>> grounded anode. Seems like a no-brainer.
>>
>> -- john, KE5FX
>
> The capacitor will have high voltage on it. This could destroy any electroncs
> that inadvertently got connected badly.
>
> You don't need to couple to the anode. Just take the signal off the cathode
> like the old cathode followers of yesteryear.
>

There's no signal at the cathode to speak of--almost all the anode
current comes in via the dynodes.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 3:50:40 PM UTC-7, Mike Monett wrote:
> "John Miles, KE5FX" <jmi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:51:46 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> >> Yup. Grounded-cathode is the usual method with scintillators. You
> >> couple the pulses out with a capacitor, so it's not that big a deal.
> >
> > I seriously do not understand this. With a grounded cathode, the
> > signal you're extracting at the anode end is exposed to ripple...

> The capacitor will have high voltage on it. This could destroy any electroncs
> that inadvertently got connected badly.
>
> You don't need to couple to the anode. Just take the signal off the cathode
> like the old cathode followers of yesteryear.

A PMT cathode is typically a multialkali evaporated coating on the end of the tube, has
significant stray capacitance, and the signal there is weak (un-multiplied, no benefit
from the PMT gain).

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

[...]
> Yup. Back in the long ago (1984ish), I built a power supply filter that
> got rid of 10 Vpp of 120 Hz ripple on a 2 kV supply for some piezo
> stacks. It worked by lifting the cold end, sensing the hot end via a
> 100 nF, 3 kV film cap, and wiggling the cold end to keep it still. (It
> had some TVS protection too, obviously.)
>
> With an LF356 op amp, I got 100 dB of ripple rejection, which came in
> pretty handy. I could probably have done considerably better with that
> feedforward trick of Woodward's, where you use another op amp to measure
> the error voltage of the main one, and add in its output.
>
> Another approach like that is the Kanner Kap, which wasn't first
> invented by Kanner, but he now owns it on account of the cute name.
> That's the trick where you use an RC lowpass, and drive the cold end of
> the cap with some super beefy amplifier to make the top stay still.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs

The CCFL inverter I got from Amazon runs at 40KHz.

A simple half-wave rectifier running at 40 KHz with a 1nF cap and 9e6 Ohm
load will produce about 2V sawtooth ripple.

This is about 2/800 = 0.0025 * 100 = 0.25% ripple.

That should be good enough.

--
MRM

Mike Monett wrote:
> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> Yup. Back in the long ago (1984ish), I built a power supply filter that
>> got rid of 10 Vpp of 120 Hz ripple on a 2 kV supply for some piezo
>> stacks. It worked by lifting the cold end, sensing the hot end via a
>> 100 nF, 3 kV film cap, and wiggling the cold end to keep it still. (It
>> had some TVS protection too, obviously.)
>>
>> With an LF356 op amp, I got 100 dB of ripple rejection, which came in
>> pretty handy. I could probably have done considerably better with that
>> feedforward trick of Woodward's, where you use another op amp to measure
>> the error voltage of the main one, and add in its output.
>>
>> Another approach like that is the Kanner Kap, which wasn't first
>> invented by Kanner, but he now owns it on account of the cute name.
>> That's the trick where you use an RC lowpass, and drive the cold end of
>> the cap with some super beefy amplifier to make the top stay still.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
> The CCFL inverter I got from Amazon runs at 40KHz.
>
> A simple half-wave rectifier running at 40 KHz with a 1nF cap and 9e6 Ohm
> load will produce about 2V sawtooth ripple.
>
> This is about 2/800 = 0.0025 * 100 = 0.25% ripple.
>
> That should be good enough.

Totally. You can probably use one of the HV caps that came with it to
couple the anode pulses to the outside world.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

> Mike Monett wrote:
>> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> Yup. Back in the long ago (1984ish), I built a power supply filter
>>> that got rid of 10 Vpp of 120 Hz ripple on a 2 kV supply for some
>>> piezo stacks. It worked by lifting the cold end, sensing the hot end
>>> via a 100 nF, 3 kV film cap, and wiggling the cold end to keep it
>>> still. (It had some TVS protection too, obviously.)
>>>
>>> With an LF356 op amp, I got 100 dB of ripple rejection, which came in
>>> pretty handy. I could probably have done considerably better with
>>> that feedforward trick of Woodward's, where you use another op amp to
>>> measure the error voltage of the main one, and add in its output.
>>>
>>> Another approach like that is the Kanner Kap, which wasn't first
>>> invented by Kanner, but he now owns it on account of the cute name.
>>> That's the trick where you use an RC lowpass, and drive the cold end
>>> of the cap with some super beefy amplifier to make the top stay still.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Phil Hobbs
>>
>> The CCFL inverter I got from Amazon runs at 40KHz.
>>
>> A simple half-wave rectifier running at 40 KHz with a 1nF cap and 9e6
>> Ohm load will produce about 2V sawtooth ripple.
>>
>> This is about 2/800 = 0.0025 * 100 = 0.25% ripple.
>>
>> That should be good enough.
>
> Totally. You can probably use one of the HV caps that came with it to
> couple the anode pulses to the outside world.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs

That is a problem. The RH Electronics MCA expects positive pulses. These
won't come from the anode.

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/e43988_a63520f4ed07436a843ddc1be0fda46a~
mv2.jpg

https://video.wixstatic.com/video/e43988_8006efb319884c72b9d7f7418abdfa97/7
20p/mp4/file.mp4

I shall write them and ask where they get those positive pulses.

--
MRM

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

> Mike Monett wrote:
>> "John Miles, KE5FX" <jmiles@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, July 20, 2022 at 12:51:46 PM UTC-7, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>>>> Yup. Grounded-cathode is the usual method with scintillators. You
>>>> couple the pulses out with a capacitor, so it's not that big a deal.
>>>
>>> I seriously do not understand this. With a grounded cathode, the
>>> signal you're extracting at the anode end is exposed to ripple from
>>> the PMT supply, without benefit of a multi-megohm divider chain.
>>> There's also the need to use a DC restorer of some sort to figure out
>>> where the baseline is. Both of these problems go away with a
>>> grounded anode. Seems like a no-brainer.
>>>
>>> -- john, KE5FX
>>
>> The capacitor will have high voltage on it. This could destroy any
>> electroncs that inadvertently got connected badly.
>>
>> You don't need to couple to the anode. Just take the signal off the
>> cathode like the old cathode followers of yesteryear.
>>
>
> There's no signal at the cathode to speak of--almost all the anode
> current comes in via the dynodes.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs

Right. I got derailed by the positive pulses from the RH Electronics MCA.

Got to find out how they do that.

--
MRM

On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 23:53:53 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spamme@not.com>
wrote:

>Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> Mike Monett wrote:
>>> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> Yup. Back in the long ago (1984ish), I built a power supply filter
>>>> that got rid of 10 Vpp of 120 Hz ripple on a 2 kV supply for some
>>>> piezo stacks. It worked by lifting the cold end, sensing the hot end
>>>> via a 100 nF, 3 kV film cap, and wiggling the cold end to keep it
>>>> still. (It had some TVS protection too, obviously.)
>>>>
>>>> With an LF356 op amp, I got 100 dB of ripple rejection, which came in
>>>> pretty handy. I could probably have done considerably better with
>>>> that feedforward trick of Woodward's, where you use another op amp to
>>>> measure the error voltage of the main one, and add in its output.
>>>>
>>>> Another approach like that is the Kanner Kap, which wasn't first
>>>> invented by Kanner, but he now owns it on account of the cute name.
>>>> That's the trick where you use an RC lowpass, and drive the cold end
>>>> of the cap with some super beefy amplifier to make the top stay still.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>
>>> The CCFL inverter I got from Amazon runs at 40KHz.
>>>
>>> A simple half-wave rectifier running at 40 KHz with a 1nF cap and 9e6
>>> Ohm load will produce about 2V sawtooth ripple.
>>>
>>> This is about 2/800 = 0.0025 * 100 = 0.25% ripple.
>>>
>>> That should be good enough.
>>
>> Totally. You can probably use one of the HV caps that came with it to
>> couple the anode pulses to the outside world.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
>That is a problem. The RH Electronics MCA expects positive pulses. These
>won't come from the anode.
>
>https://static.wixstatic.com/media/e43988_a63520f4ed07436a843ddc1be0fda46a~
>mv2.jpg
>
>https://video.wixstatic.com/video/e43988_8006efb319884c72b9d7f7418abdfa97/7
>20p/mp4/file.mp4
>
>I shall write them and ask where they get those positive pulses.

A transformer could invert pulses and take out the HV and the HV
ripple. You'd need to take out ps ripple for pulse height analysis.

Mike Monett wrote:
> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> Mike Monett wrote:
>>> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> Yup. Back in the long ago (1984ish), I built a power supply filter
>>>> that got rid of 10 Vpp of 120 Hz ripple on a 2 kV supply for some
>>>> piezo stacks. It worked by lifting the cold end, sensing the hot end
>>>> via a 100 nF, 3 kV film cap, and wiggling the cold end to keep it
>>>> still. (It had some TVS protection too, obviously.)
>>>>
>>>> With an LF356 op amp, I got 100 dB of ripple rejection, which came in
>>>> pretty handy. I could probably have done considerably better with
>>>> that feedforward trick of Woodward's, where you use another op amp to
>>>> measure the error voltage of the main one, and add in its output.
>>>>
>>>> Another approach like that is the Kanner Kap, which wasn't first
>>>> invented by Kanner, but he now owns it on account of the cute name.
>>>> That's the trick where you use an RC lowpass, and drive the cold end
>>>> of the cap with some super beefy amplifier to make the top stay still.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>
>>> The CCFL inverter I got from Amazon runs at 40KHz.
>>>
>>> A simple half-wave rectifier running at 40 KHz with a 1nF cap and 9e6
>>> Ohm load will produce about 2V sawtooth ripple.
>>>
>>> This is about 2/800 = 0.0025 * 100 = 0.25% ripple.
>>>
>>> That should be good enough.
>>
>> Totally. You can probably use one of the HV caps that came with it to
>> couple the anode pulses to the outside world.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
> That is a problem. The RH Electronics MCA expects positive pulses. These
> won't come from the anode.
>
> https://static.wixstatic.com/media/e43988_a63520f4ed07436a843ddc1be0fda46a~
> mv2.jpg
>
> https://video.wixstatic.com/video/e43988_8006efb319884c72b9d7f7418abdfa97/7
> 20p/mp4/file.mp4
>
> I shall write them and ask where they get those positive pulses.

Probably from a TIA.

One approach is to use an old-fashioned low-gain MMIC--most are
basically Darlingtons with resistive feedback, so they invert.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On 7/21/22 13:19, Martin Brown wrote:

> Protecting the instrument from coolant failure and the hard vacuum from
> plasma flame out was a major part of the safety critical side of things.
> It was worse in the early days when the vacuum pumps were diffusion. Any
> sort of cock up and you had hot silicone oil all over the place.

Why weren't you running Santovac 5 instead of silicone oil? Same base
pressure as dc705 and no worries about insulating films from ion
bombardment if a little didn't get cleaned up after a backstreaming
incident :-).

--
Regards,
Carl

On 7/22/2022 3:17, John Larkin wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 23:53:53 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett <spamme@not.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Mike Monett wrote:
>>>> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>>> Yup. Back in the long ago (1984ish), I built a power supply filter
>>>>> that got rid of 10 Vpp of 120 Hz ripple on a 2 kV supply for some
>>>>> piezo stacks. It worked by lifting the cold end, sensing the hot end
>>>>> via a 100 nF, 3 kV film cap, and wiggling the cold end to keep it
>>>>> still. (It had some TVS protection too, obviously.)
>>>>>
>>>>> With an LF356 op amp, I got 100 dB of ripple rejection, which came in
>>>>> pretty handy. I could probably have done considerably better with
>>>>> that feedforward trick of Woodward's, where you use another op amp to
>>>>> measure the error voltage of the main one, and add in its output.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another approach like that is the Kanner Kap, which wasn't first
>>>>> invented by Kanner, but he now owns it on account of the cute name.
>>>>> That's the trick where you use an RC lowpass, and drive the cold end
>>>>> of the cap with some super beefy amplifier to make the top stay still.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>>
>>>> The CCFL inverter I got from Amazon runs at 40KHz.
>>>>
>>>> A simple half-wave rectifier running at 40 KHz with a 1nF cap and 9e6
>>>> Ohm load will produce about 2V sawtooth ripple.
>>>>
>>>> This is about 2/800 = 0.0025 * 100 = 0.25% ripple.
>>>>
>>>> That should be good enough.
>>>
>>> Totally. You can probably use one of the HV caps that came with it to
>>> couple the anode pulses to the outside world.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Phil Hobbs
>>
>> That is a problem. The RH Electronics MCA expects positive pulses. These
>> won't come from the anode.
>>
>> https://static.wixstatic.com/media/e43988_a63520f4ed07436a843ddc1be0fda46a~
>> mv2.jpg
>>
>> https://video.wixstatic.com/video/e43988_8006efb319884c72b9d7f7418abdfa97/7
>> 20p/mp4/file.mp4
>>
>> I shall write them and ask where they get those positive pulses.
>
> A transformer could invert pulses and take out the HV and the HV
> ripple. You'd need to take out ps ripple for pulse height analysis.
>

Never thought of doing it like this but sounds reasonable.
OTOH for PHA with a scintillator there is not much energy resolution
to speak of so just about any shaping method you come up with will do.

On 22/07/2022 03:49, Carl wrote:
> On 7/21/22 13:19, Martin Brown wrote:
>
>> Protecting the instrument from coolant failure and the hard vacuum
>> from plasma flame out was a major part of the safety critical side of
>> things. It was worse in the early days when the vacuum pumps were
>> diffusion. Any sort of cock up and you had hot silicone oil all over
>> the place.
>
> Why weren't you running Santovac 5 instead of silicone oil?  Same base
> pressure as dc705 and no worries about insulating films from ion
> bombardment if a little didn't get cleaned up after a backstreaming
> incident :-).

They might have been for all I know. I did the software and firmware for
the embedded control system. I wasn't involved with the actual filling
of the diffusion pumps with whatever gunk they used. All I knew about it
was that on flame out we had to close the gate valve very quickly or it
would be a painful strip down and clean operation for some unlucky
technician. Mostly it worked fast enough but not always.

Life improved considerably when they moved onto turbo-molecular pumps
and for a while performance was improved even more by maglev ones.

Then one day an earthquake in Tokyo suddenly moved the Earth sideways by
an inch instantaneously and every damn one of them was destroyed. I
remember it well since in the quiet of the evening I heard the
earthquake coming (I have no idea how but I was wondering about the
strange train like sound outside when the jolt suddenly arrived).

We were busy doing turbo pump swaps for weeks and after that
conventional bearings were specified for earthquake zones.

The maglevs had been out in the field for a couple of years before this
rather nasty vulnerability became apparent.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

[...]
>> I shall write them and ask where they get those positive pulses.
>
> Probably from a TIA.
>
> One approach is to use an old-fashioned low-gain MMIC--most are
> basically Darlingtons with resistive feedback, so they invert.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs

I begin to suspect a simple inverter. This shows the schematic of the
Theremino about 1/3 of the way down. 100 Meg feedback to a flyback HV
generator, 2 Meg PMT load, grounded cathode, pulse-shaping network to a
grounded emitter inverter. No concern about linearity. One thing I don't
understand is a 1N4148 connected betwen the base and ground to catch
negative pulses. I wonder if this is a cheap log converter:

https://physicsopenlab.org/2016/01/26/diy-gamma-spectrometry/

I think I'll run mine with a negative cathode to avoid mistakes wiping out
the preamplifier. It's not going to be in operation long enough to worry
about ion migration. Then find out how RH inverts their pulses.

--
MRM

Martin Brown wrote:
> On 22/07/2022 03:49, Carl wrote:
>> On 7/21/22 13:19, Martin Brown wrote:
>>
>>> Protecting the instrument from coolant failure and the hard vacuum
>>> from plasma flame out was a major part of the safety critical side of
>>> things. It was worse in the early days when the vacuum pumps were
>>> diffusion. Any sort of cock up and you had hot silicone oil all over
>>> the place.
>>
>> Why weren't you running Santovac 5 instead of silicone oil?  Same base
>> pressure as dc705 and no worries about insulating films from ion
>> bombardment if a little didn't get cleaned up after a backstreaming
>> incident :-).
>
> They might have been for all I know. I did the software and firmware for
> the embedded control system. I wasn't involved with the actual filling
> of the diffusion pumps with whatever gunk they used. All I knew about it
> was that on flame out we had to close the gate valve very quickly or it
> would be a painful strip down and clean operation for some unlucky
> technician. Mostly it worked fast enough but not always.
>
> Life improved considerably when they moved onto turbo-molecular pumps
> and for a while performance was improved even more by maglev ones.
>
> Then one day an earthquake in Tokyo suddenly moved the Earth sideways by
> an inch instantaneously and every damn one of them was destroyed. I
> remember it well since in the quiet of the evening I heard the
> earthquake coming (I have no idea how but I was wondering about the
> strange train like sound outside when the jolt suddenly arrived).
>
> We were busy doing turbo pump swaps for weeks and after that
> conventional bearings were specified for earthquake zones.
>
> The maglevs had been out in the field for a couple of years before this
> rather nasty vulnerability became apparent.
>

Did any of the casings let go?

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com