Frank, here is a statement from the National Highway Traffic Safety Board

"In August 2012, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) decided to begin a US$8.75 million study of whether lithium-ion batteries in plug-electric vehicles pose a potential fire hazard. The research looked at whether the high-voltage batteries can cause fires when they are being charged and when the vehicles are involved in an accident.[23] The research from 2013 was initiated to evaluate the fire risk 400-volt lithium ion batteries pose. General Motors assisted the NHTSA researchers, and the study was issued in October 2017. The report concluded, "...ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic failure situation."

This entire subject started when I attempted to warn you that EV's are unsafe to an extent that you're not aware of. But you violently denied that with all of the BS you could muster.

Right there it says that EV fires are about as often as gasoline fires on ICE vehicles. That means RARE but ICE cars do not have gasoline explosions and are almost always caused by wrecks whereas EV explosions occur for little to no reason and are so violent that you cannot exit to safety in most cases.

I realize that you believe that buying an EV proves your God-like judgement but if I were you I would put very many very loud fire detectors around your home. And keep their batteries up to date.

On 3/10/2024 8:53 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> Frank, here is a statement from the National Highway Traffic Safety Board
>
> "In August 2012, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) decided to begin a US$8.75 million study of whether lithium-ion batteries in plug-electric vehicles pose a potential fire hazard. The research looked at whether the high-voltage batteries can cause fires when they are being charged and when the vehicles are involved in an accident.[23] The research from 2013 was initiated to evaluate the fire risk 400-volt lithium ion batteries pose. General Motors assisted the NHTSA researchers, and the study was issued in October 2017. The report concluded, "...ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic failure situation."
>
> This entire subject started when I attempted to warn you that EV's are unsafe to an extent that you're not aware of. But you violently denied that with all of the BS you could muster.
>
> Right there it says that EV fires are about as often as gasoline fires on ICE vehicles. That means RARE but ICE cars do not have gasoline explosions and are almost always caused by wrecks whereas EV explosions occur for little to no reason and are so violent that you cannot exit to safety in most cases.
>
>
> I realize that you believe that buying an EV proves your God-like judgement but if I were you I would put very many very loud fire detectors around your home. And keep their batteries up to date.

"Australia’s Department of Defence funded EV FireSafe to look into the
question. It found there was a 0.0012% chance of a passenger electric
vehicle battery catching fire, compared with a 0.1% chance for internal
combustion engine cars. (The Home Office said it was unable to provide
data for the UK.)

Elon Musk’s Tesla is the world’s biggest maker of electric cars. It says
the number of fires on US roads involving Teslas from 2012 to 2021 was
11 times lower per mile than the figure for all cars, the vast majority
of which have petrol or diesel engines."

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/20/do-electric-cars-pose-a-greater-fire-risk-than-petrol-or-diesel-vehicles

https://internationalfireandsafetyjournal.com/research-highlights-lower-fire-risk-in-electric-cars-compared-to-petrol-and-diesel-vehicles/

On 3/10/2024 11:53 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> Frank, here is a statement from the National Highway Traffic Safety Board
>
> "In August 2012, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) decided to begin a US$8.75 million study of whether lithium-ion batteries in plug-electric vehicles pose a potential fire hazard. ... The report concluded, "...ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic failure situation."

Read that again, Tom. And perhaps get a high school student to help you
understand it.

> Right there it says that EV fires are about as often as gasoline fires on ICE vehicles.

No, that's not what it said. And sadly, the dismal reading comprehension
that caused you to misunderstand will also make my explanation
incomprehensible. Still, out of excessive charity, I'm going to try to
explain!

The study you referred to POTENTIAL fires, and ANTICIPATED EV fires to
be the same or less than gasoline or diesel fires.

The data since then shows that in practice, ACTUAL EV fires are far, far
less common than gasoline or diesel fires.

The study was saying "Hmm, this might happen." The data is saying "This
is what's actually happened."

(If you do come around to understanding that, you should give that high
school student a nice tip.)

> I realize that you believe that buying an EV proves your God-like judgement but if I were you I would put very many very loud fire detectors around your home. And keep their batteries up to date.

If you were me, you'd have excellent reading comprehension, you'd
understand how to interpret data, you'd make far fewer mechanical
mistakes, you'd make far fewer failed predictions of disasters, you'd
not have lost investment money when the stock market surged under Obama,
you'd live in a far nicer community, you'd be far less fearful, and
you'd be far, far happier.

But you are not anything like me. Sorry, Tom, deal with it.

--
- Frank Krygowski

> On 3/10/2024 8:53 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> Frank, here is a statement from the National Highway Traffic Safety Board
>>
>> "In August 2012, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
>> (NHTSA) decided to begin a US$8.75 million study of whether
>> lithium-ion batteries in plug-electric vehicles pose a potential fire
>> hazard. The research looked at whether the high-voltage batteries can
>> cause fires when they are being charged and when the vehicles are
>> involved in an accident.[23] The research from 2013 was initiated to
>> evaluate the fire risk 400-volt lithium ion batteries pose. General
>> Motors assisted the NHTSA researchers, and the study was issued in
>> October 2017. The report concluded, "...ignition of flammable
>> electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated
>> to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for
>> gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for
>> Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller
>> amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic
>> failure situation."

1) This is an 11-year-old study. EV technology has coma a long way in
the past decade.
2) it states "The overall consequences for Li-ion batteries are expected
to be less because of the much smaller amounts of flammable solvent
released and burning in a catastrophic failure situation." - directly
contradicting all of your fear-mongering.

>>
>> This entire subject started when I attempted to warn you that EV's are
>> unsafe to an extent that you're not aware of.

Your article states exactly the opposite.

>> But you violently denied
>> that with all of the BS you could muster.
>>
>> Right there it says that EV fires are about as often as gasoline fires
>> on ICE vehicles.

No, it doesn't. It _predicts_..."ignition of flammable electrolytic
solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat
comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel
vehicular fuels."

>> That means RARE but ICE cars do not have gasoline
>> explosions and are almost always caused by wrecks whereas EV
>> explosions occur for little to no reason and are so violent that you
>> cannot exit to safety in most cases.

Your article makes no such conclusions.

>> I realize that you believe that buying an EV proves your God-like
>> judgement but if I were you I would put very many very loud fire
>> detectors around your home. And keep their batteries up to date.

Why do you care? If anything, one would think you would relish the idea
of Franks house going up in a spectacular explosion, especially given
all the times you've threatened to kill or maim him in this forum.

You and the floriduh dumbass really need to take a remedial reading
comprehension course

On Sun Mar 10 21:06:18 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/10/2024 11:53 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > Frank, here is a statement from the National Highway Traffic Safety Board
> >
> > "In August 2012, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) decided to begin a US$8.75 million study of whether lithium-ion batteries in plug-electric vehicles pose a potential fire hazard. ... The report concluded, "...ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic failure situation."
>
> Read that again, Tom. And perhaps get a high school student to help you
> understand it.
>
> > Right there it says that EV fires are about as often as gasoline fires on ICE vehicles.
>
> No, that's not what it said. And sadly, the dismal reading comprehension
> that caused you to misunderstand will also make my explanation
> incomprehensible. Still, out of excessive charity, I'm going to try to
> explain!
>
> The study you referred to POTENTIAL fires, and ANTICIPATED EV fires to
> be the same or less than gasoline or diesel fires.
>
> The data since then shows that in practice, ACTUAL EV fires are far, far
> less common than gasoline or diesel fires.
>
> The study was saying "Hmm, this might happen." The data is saying "This
> is what's actually happened."
>
> (If you do come around to understanding that, you should give that high
> school student a nice tip.)
>
> > I realize that you believe that buying an EV proves your God-like judgement but if I were you I would put very many very loud fire detectors around your home. And keep their batteries up to date.
>
> If you were me, you'd have excellent reading comprehension, you'd
> understand how to interpret data, you'd make far fewer mechanical
> mistakes, you'd make far fewer failed predictions of disasters, you'd
> not have lost investment money when the stock market surged under Obama,
> you'd live in a far nicer community, you'd be far less fearful, and
> you'd be far, far happier.
>
> But you are not anything like me. Sorry, Tom, deal with it.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
>

Frank, do you suppose that people cannot read for themselves? Lining up your bullshit does not change reality. Anything to deny to yourself that there was a danger that you didn't know about. Go ahead and continue to act like a fool. That posting now reached the level of comedy.

On Mon Mar 11 08:12:05 2024 Zen Cycle wrote:
> > On 3/10/2024 8:53 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> Frank, here is a statement from the National Highway Traffic Safety Board
> >>
> >> "In August 2012, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
> >> (NHTSA) decided to begin a US$8.75 million study of whether
> >> lithium-ion batteries in plug-electric vehicles pose a potential fire
> >> hazard. The research looked at whether the high-voltage batteries can
> >> cause fires when they are being charged and when the vehicles are
> >> involved in an accident.[23] The research from 2013 was initiated to
> >> evaluate the fire risk 400-volt lithium ion batteries pose. General
> >> Motors assisted the NHTSA researchers, and the study was issued in
> >> October 2017. The report concluded, "...ignition of flammable
> >> electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated
> >> to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for
> >> gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for
> >> Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller
> >> amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic
> >> failure situation."
>
> 1) This is an 11-year-old study. EV technology has coma a long way in
> the past decade.
> 2) it states "The overall consequences for Li-ion batteries are expected
> to be less because of the much smaller amounts of flammable solvent
> released and burning in a catastrophic failure situation." - directly
> contradicting all of your fear-mongering.
>
>
> >>
> >> This entire subject started when I attempted to warn you that EV's are
> >> unsafe to an extent that you're not aware of.
>
> Your article states exactly the opposite.
>
> >> But you violently denied
> >> that with all of the BS you could muster.
> >>
> >> Right there it says that EV fires are about as often as gasoline fires
> >> on ICE vehicles.
>
> No, it doesn't. It _predicts_..."ignition of flammable electrolytic
> solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat
> comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel
> vehicular fuels."
>
> >> That means RARE but ICE cars do not have gasoline
> >> explosions and are almost always caused by wrecks whereas EV
> >> explosions occur for little to no reason and are so violent that you
> >> cannot exit to safety in most cases.
>
> Your article makes no such conclusions.
>
> >> I realize that you believe that buying an EV proves your God-like
> >> judgement but if I were you I would put very many very loud fire
> >> detectors around your home. And keep their batteries up to date.
>
> Why do you care? If anything, one would think you would relish the idea
> of Franks house going up in a spectacular explosion, especially given
> all the times you've threatened to kill or maim him in this forum.
>
> You and the floriduh dumbass really need to take a remedial reading
> comprehension course
>

You're the one thst denied the burn marks and melted cars on roads visible even on Google Earth couldn't possibly be from electric cars. I suggest you take your ignorant opinions and talk to the people that have had their cars explode while sitting in parking garages that EV's are more safe than gasoline cars. I think that Andrew was trying to say something indecernable when he published that reference to someone dying in a gasoline fire after being trapped in a car after a wreck.

There are also deisel fires and deseil fuel is far less dangerous than gasoline since it has a much higher temperature of vaporization.

I am curious - when you are do lacking in any experience in the real world why do you continue to act as if you do? You are nothing more than a pin head attempting to prove me wrong requardless of your inability to even think. Let alone ponder. You were not even bright enough to realize that electric cars are propeled with an engine with only one moving part. That it can also be used as a major part of the braking system and that there is not transmission and that EV's could be used with multiplle motors so that you don't even require differentials reducing mechanical gearing to zero.

I started working on cars at the age of 14 and you've probably never worked on a car in your life. While modern cars have extremely complex conputer systems that I know nothing about, the mechanics of an ICE vehicle are all the same today as they were when I was 14. Were I interested all I need do is check a book out of a library to learn the computer systems in cars (my wife's car continued to run with the entire key system disconnected and laying on the dashboard) I will say that the people who programmed most of the Korean cars had no idea what they were doing.

But if you believe that somehow an EV is superior because it has up to 1800 lbs of batteries rather than 90 lbs of gasoline, there is something missing in your brain. My cop friend who saved my life bought a plug-in hybrid and after buying investigated EV batteries and now parks his car out on a concrete drive far away from his house. That guy was a detective of the first water but I'm sure you're much brighter than he is.

On 3/11/2024 10:43 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sun Mar 10 21:06:18 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/10/2024 11:53 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> Frank, here is a statement from the National Highway Traffic Safety Board
>>>
>>> "In August 2012, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) decided to begin a US$8.75 million study of whether lithium-ion batteries in plug-electric vehicles pose a potential fire hazard. ... The report concluded, "...ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic failure situation."
>>
>> Read that again, Tom. And perhaps get a high school student to help you
>> understand it.
>>
>>> Right there it says that EV fires are about as often as gasoline fires on ICE vehicles.
>>
>> No, that's not what it said. And sadly, the dismal reading comprehension
>> that caused you to misunderstand will also make my explanation
>> incomprehensible. Still, out of excessive charity, I'm going to try to
>> explain!
>>
>> The study you referred to POTENTIAL fires, and ANTICIPATED EV fires to
>> be the same or less than gasoline or diesel fires.
>>
>> The data since then shows that in practice, ACTUAL EV fires are far, far
>> less common than gasoline or diesel fires.
>>
>> The study was saying "Hmm, this might happen." The data is saying "This
>> is what's actually happened."
>>
>> (If you do come around to understanding that, you should give that high
>> school student a nice tip.)
>>
>>> I realize that you believe that buying an EV proves your God-like judgement but if I were you I would put very many very loud fire detectors around your home. And keep their batteries up to date.
>>
>> If you were me, you'd have excellent reading comprehension, you'd
>> understand how to interpret data, you'd make far fewer mechanical
>> mistakes, you'd make far fewer failed predictions of disasters, you'd
>> not have lost investment money when the stock market surged under Obama,
>> you'd live in a far nicer community, you'd be far less fearful, and
>> you'd be far, far happier.
>>
>> But you are not anything like me. Sorry, Tom, deal with it.
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>
>
>
>
> Frank, do you suppose that people cannot read for themselves?

You've proven you can't - at least, with comprehension.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon Mar 11 11:51:41 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/11/2024 10:43 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Sun Mar 10 21:06:18 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 3/10/2024 11:53 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> Frank, here is a statement from the National Highway Traffic Safety Board
> >>>
> >>> "In August 2012, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) decided to begin a US$8.75 million study of whether lithium-ion batteries in plug-electric vehicles pose a potential fire hazard. ... The report concluded, "...ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic failure situation."
> >>
> >> Read that again, Tom. And perhaps get a high school student to help you
> >> understand it.
> >>
> >>> Right there it says that EV fires are about as often as gasoline fires on ICE vehicles.
> >>
> >> No, that's not what it said. And sadly, the dismal reading comprehension
> >> that caused you to misunderstand will also make my explanation
> >> incomprehensible. Still, out of excessive charity, I'm going to try to
> >> explain!
> >>
> >> The study you referred to POTENTIAL fires, and ANTICIPATED EV fires to
> >> be the same or less than gasoline or diesel fires.
> >>
> >> The data since then shows that in practice, ACTUAL EV fires are far, far
> >> less common than gasoline or diesel fires.
> >>
> >> The study was saying "Hmm, this might happen." The data is saying "This
> >> is what's actually happened."
> >>
> >> (If you do come around to understanding that, you should give that high
> >> school student a nice tip.)
> >>
> >>> I realize that you believe that buying an EV proves your God-like judgement but if I were you I would put very many very loud fire detectors around your home. And keep their batteries up to date.
> >>
> >> If you were me, you'd have excellent reading comprehension, you'd
> >> understand how to interpret data, you'd make far fewer mechanical
> >> mistakes, you'd make far fewer failed predictions of disasters, you'd
> >> not have lost investment money when the stock market surged under Obama,
> >> you'd live in a far nicer community, you'd be far less fearful, and
> >> you'd be far, far happier.
> >>
> >> But you are not anything like me. Sorry, Tom, deal with it.
> >>
> >> --
> >> - Frank Krygowski
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Frank, do you suppose that people cannot read for themselves?
>
> You've proven you can't - at least, with comprehension.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
>

The more you comment the more I think that it is a good idea to park your electric car in your garage. I'm fearfuol from the man who shits his pants at the mere mention of an AR15. Using a gun in a crime is rare considering that there are 332,000,000 people in this country and 400,000,000 guns. Not to mention that there are billions of rounds of ammunition. This last school shooting was by a queer in a Catholic School. She left an entire message of why she was murdering children but the neither the FBI or the Justice Department are releasing it. But we know that it was there because she sent it to her girl friend.
ONE gun in the hands of a competent teacher would have prevented that shooting and what is YOUR fucking comment? Ban all private ownership of guns like they did in North Korea.

As I said, it is a brilliant idea of yours to park your EV in your garage. And if the unthinkable does happen be absolutely certain to never admit it.

On Sun Mar 10 14:31:34 2024 Bob F wrote:
> On 3/10/2024 8:53 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > Frank, here is a statement from the National Highway Traffic Safety Board
> >
> > "In August 2012, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) decided to begin a US$8.75 million study of whether lithium-ion batteries in plug-electric vehicles pose a potential fire hazard. The research looked at whether the high-voltage batteries can cause fires when they are being charged and when the vehicles are involved in an accident.[23] The research from 2013 was initiated to evaluate the fire risk 400-volt lithium ion batteries pose. General Motors assisted the NHTSA researchers, and the study was issued in October 2017. The report concluded, "...ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic failure situation."
> >
> > This entire subject started when I attempted to warn you that EV's are unsafe to an extent that you're not aware of. But you violently denied that with all of the BS you could muster.
> >
> > Right there it says that EV fires are about as often as gasoline fires on ICE vehicles. That means RARE but ICE cars do not have gasoline explosions and are almost always caused by wrecks whereas EV explosions occur for little to no reason and are so violent that you cannot exit to safety in most cases.
> >
> >
> > I realize that you believe that buying an EV proves your God-like judgement but if I were you I would put very many very loud fire detectors around your home. And keep their batteries up to date.
>
>
> "Australia?s Department of Defence funded EV FireSafe to look into the
> question. It found there was a 0.0012% chance of a passenger electric
> vehicle battery catching fire, compared with a 0.1% chance for internal
> combustion engine cars. (The Home Office said it was unable to provide
> data for the UK.)
>
> Elon Musk?s Tesla is the world?s biggest maker of electric cars. It says
> the number of fires on US roads involving Teslas from 2012 to 2021 was
> 11 times lower per mile than the figure for all cars, the vast majority
> of which have petrol or diesel engines."
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/20/do-electric-cars-pose-a-greater-fire-risk-than-petrol-or-diesel-vehicles
>
> https://internationalfireandsafetyjournal.com/research-highlights-lower-fire-risk-in-electric-cars-compared-to-petrol-and-diesel-vehicles/
>

Frank claims there to be 12 million EV's on the road and using the Australian numbers that would put the number of EV fires at 14,000. Frank claims that there were only 12 fires.

On 3/11/2024 12:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sun Mar 10 14:31:34 2024 Bob F wrote:
>> On 3/10/2024 8:53 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> Frank, here is a statement from the National Highway Traffic Safety Board
>>>
>>> "In August 2012, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) decided to begin a US$8.75 million study of whether lithium-ion batteries in plug-electric vehicles pose a potential fire hazard. The research looked at whether the high-voltage batteries can cause fires when they are being charged and when the vehicles are involved in an accident.[23] The research from 2013 was initiated to evaluate the fire risk 400-volt lithium ion batteries pose. General Motors assisted the NHTSA researchers, and the study was issued in October 2017. The report concluded, "...ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic failure situation."
>>>
>>> This entire subject started when I attempted to warn you that EV's are unsafe to an extent that you're not aware of. But you violently denied that with all of the BS you could muster.
>>>
>>> Right there it says that EV fires are about as often as gasoline fires on ICE vehicles. That means RARE but ICE cars do not have gasoline explosions and are almost always caused by wrecks whereas EV explosions occur for little to no reason and are so violent that you cannot exit to safety in most cases.
>>>
>>>
>>> I realize that you believe that buying an EV proves your God-like judgement but if I were you I would put very many very loud fire detectors around your home. And keep their batteries up to date.
>>
>>
>> "Australia?s Department of Defence funded EV FireSafe to look into the
>> question. It found there was a 0.0012% chance of a passenger electric
>> vehicle battery catching fire, compared with a 0.1% chance for internal
>> combustion engine cars. (The Home Office said it was unable to provide
>> data for the UK.)
>>
>> Elon Musk?s Tesla is the world?s biggest maker of electric cars. It says
>> the number of fires on US roads involving Teslas from 2012 to 2021 was
>> 11 times lower per mile than the figure for all cars, the vast majority
>> of which have petrol or diesel engines."
>>
>> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/20/do-electric-cars-pose-a-greater-fire-risk-than-petrol-or-diesel-vehicles
>>
>> https://internationalfireandsafetyjournal.com/research-highlights-lower-fire-risk-in-electric-cars-compared-to-petrol-and-diesel-vehicles/
>>
>
>
>
>
> Frank claims there to be 12 million EV's on the road and using the Australian numbers that would put the number of EV fires at 14,000. Frank claims that there were only 12 fires.

There are no good vehicle fires:

https://www.theblaze.com/news/watch-bodycam-footage-released-after-los-angeles-teen-burns-to-death-in-horrifying-car-crash

but thankfully auto immolation is relatively rare for both
systems.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

> On 3/11/2024 12:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Sun Mar 10 14:31:34 2024 Bob F  wrote:
>>>
>>> "Australia?s Department of Defence funded EV FireSafe to look into the
>>> question. It found there was a 0.0012% chance of a passenger electric
>>> vehicle battery catching fire, compared with a 0.1% chance for internal
>>> combustion engine cars. (The Home Office said it was unable to provide
>>> data for the UK.)
>>>
>>> Elon Musk?s Tesla is the world?s biggest maker of electric cars. It says
>>> the number of fires on US roads involving Teslas from 2012 to 2021 was
>>> 11 times lower per mile than the figure for all cars, the vast majority
>>> of which have petrol or diesel engines."
>>>
>>> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/20/do-electric-cars-pose-a-greater-fire-risk-than-petrol-or-diesel-vehicles
>>>
>>> https://internationalfireandsafetyjournal.com/research-highlights-lower-fire-risk-in-electric-cars-compared-to-petrol-and-diesel-vehicles/
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Frank claims there to be 12 million EV's on the road and using the
>> Australian numbers that would put the number of EV fires at 14,000.
>> Frank claims that there were only 12 fires.

lol
Tommy the engineer...
What's .0012% of 12 million?

(this might help https://www.calculator.net/percent-calculator.html)

On Mon Mar 11 14:10:43 2024 AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/11/2024 12:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Sun Mar 10 14:31:34 2024 Bob F wrote:
> >> On 3/10/2024 8:53 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> Frank, here is a statement from the National Highway Traffic Safety Board
> >>>
> >>> "In August 2012, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) decided to begin a US$8.75 million study of whether lithium-ion batteries in plug-electric vehicles pose a potential fire hazard. The research looked at whether the high-voltage batteries can cause fires when they are being charged and when the vehicles are involved in an accident.[23] The research from 2013 was initiated to evaluate the fire risk 400-volt lithium ion batteries pose. General Motors assisted the NHTSA researchers, and the study was issued in October 2017. The report concluded, "...ignition of flammable electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic failure situation."
> >>>
> >>> This entire subject started when I attempted to warn you that EV's are unsafe to an extent that you're not aware of. But you violently denied that with all of the BS you could muster.
> >>>
> >>> Right there it says that EV fires are about as often as gasoline fires on ICE vehicles. That means RARE but ICE cars do not have gasoline explosions and are almost always caused by wrecks whereas EV explosions occur for little to no reason and are so violent that you cannot exit to safety in most cases.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I realize that you believe that buying an EV proves your God-like judgement but if I were you I would put very many very loud fire detectors around your home. And keep their batteries up to date.
> >>
> >>
> >> "Australia?s Department of Defence funded EV FireSafe to look into the
> >> question. It found there was a 0.0012% chance of a passenger electric
> >> vehicle battery catching fire, compared with a 0.1% chance for internal
> >> combustion engine cars. (The Home Office said it was unable to provide
> >> data for the UK.)
> >>
> >> Elon Musk?s Tesla is the world?s biggest maker of electric cars. It says
> >> the number of fires on US roads involving Teslas from 2012 to 2021 was
> >> 11 times lower per mile than the figure for all cars, the vast majority
> >> of which have petrol or diesel engines."
> >>
> >> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/20/do-electric-cars-pose-a-greater-fire-risk-than-petrol-or-diesel-vehicles
> >>
> >> https://internationalfireandsafetyjournal.com/research-highlights-lower-fire-risk-in-electric-cars-compared-to-petrol-and-diesel-vehicles/
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Frank claims there to be 12 million EV's on the road and using the Australian numbers that would put the number of EV fires at 14,000. Frank claims that there were only 12 fires.
>
>
> There are no good vehicle fires:
>
> https://www.theblaze.com/news/watch-bodycam-footage-released-after-los-angeles-teen-burns-to-death-in-horrifying-car-crash
>
> but thankfully auto immolation is relatively rare for both
> systems.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> am@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>

Who could disagree with that? But if your ICE car is sitting in your garage it is safe. If an EV is in the garage just sitting there it is NOT. Elon has made them about a safe as possible for Lithium ion battery but other companies do not have his experience and are only copying Tesla without knowing why. This means that they make errors. Ford has hundreds of engineers that can be assigned each and every stage of safety, it is rare for EV manufacturers to have even a dozen. Should we be surprised if they are simply not reliable?

On Mon Mar 11 16:10:17 2024 Zen Cycle wrote:
> > On 3/11/2024 12:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Sun Mar 10 14:31:34 2024 Bob F wrote:
> >>>
> >>> "Australia?s Department of Defence funded EV FireSafe to look into the
> >>> question. It found there was a 0.0012% chance of a passenger electric
> >>> vehicle battery catching fire, compared with a 0.1% chance for internal
> >>> combustion engine cars. (The Home Office said it was unable to provide
> >>> data for the UK.)
> >>>
> >>> Elon Musk?s Tesla is the world?s biggest maker of electric cars. It says
> >>> the number of fires on US roads involving Teslas from 2012 to 2021 was
> >>> 11 times lower per mile than the figure for all cars, the vast majority
> >>> of which have petrol or diesel engines."
> >>>
> >>> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/20/do-electric-cars-pose-a-greater-fire-risk-than-petrol-or-diesel-vehicles
> >>>
> >>> https://internationalfireandsafetyjournal.com/research-highlights-lower-fire-risk-in-electric-cars-compared-to-petrol-and-diesel-vehicles/
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Frank claims there to be 12 million EV's on the road and using the
> >> Australian numbers that would put the number of EV fires at 14,000.
> >> Frank claims that there were only 12 fires.
>
> lol
> Tommy the engineer...
> What's .0012% of 12 million?
>
> (this might help https://www.calculator.net/percent-calculator.html)
>
>

According to Frank who taught engineering at a college it is 12. Why don't you tell me that if the failure rate is actually 144 in the entire world, how does it happen that dozens of exploding EV's just happen to have a video camera pointed at them? https://www.westernjournal.com/alarming-two-electric-buses-spontaneously-explode-entire-fleet-taken-off-road-city/

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Mon Mar 11 14:10:43 2024 AMuzi wrote:
>> On 3/11/2024 12:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Sun Mar 10 14:31:34 2024 Bob F wrote:
>>>> On 3/10/2024 8:53 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> Frank, here is a statement from the National Highway Traffic Safety Board
>>>>>
>>>>> "In August 2012, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
>>>>> (NHTSA) decided to begin a US$8.75 million study of whether
>>>>> lithium-ion batteries in plug-electric vehicles pose a potential fire
>>>>> hazard. The research looked at whether the high-voltage batteries can
>>>>> cause fires when they are being charged and when the vehicles are
>>>>> involved in an accident.[23] The research from 2013 was initiated to
>>>>> evaluate the fire risk 400-volt lithium ion batteries pose. General
>>>>> Motors assisted the NHTSA researchers, and the study was issued in
>>>>> October 2017. The report concluded, "...ignition of flammable
>>>>> electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated
>>>>> to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for
>>>>> gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for
>>>>> Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller
>>>>> amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic failure situation."
>>>>>
>>>>> This entire subject started when I attempted to warn you that EV's
>>>>> are unsafe to an extent that you're not aware of. But you violently
>>>>> denied that with all of the BS you could muster.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right there it says that EV fires are about as often as gasoline
>>>>> fires on ICE vehicles. That means RARE but ICE cars do not have
>>>>> gasoline explosions and are almost always caused by wrecks whereas EV
>>>>> explosions occur for little to no reason and are so violent that you
>>>>> cannot exit to safety in most cases.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I realize that you believe that buying an EV proves your God-like
>>>>> judgement but if I were you I would put very many very loud fire
>>>>> detectors around your home. And keep their batteries up to date.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Australia?s Department of Defence funded EV FireSafe to look into the
>>>> question. It found there was a 0.0012% chance of a passenger electric
>>>> vehicle battery catching fire, compared with a 0.1% chance for internal
>>>> combustion engine cars. (The Home Office said it was unable to provide
>>>> data for the UK.)
>>>>
>>>> Elon Musk?s Tesla is the world?s biggest maker of electric cars. It says
>>>> the number of fires on US roads involving Teslas from 2012 to 2021 was
>>>> 11 times lower per mile than the figure for all cars, the vast majority
>>>> of which have petrol or diesel engines."
>>>>
>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/20/do-electric-cars-pose-a-greater-fire-risk-than-petrol-or-diesel-vehicles
>>>>
>>>> https://internationalfireandsafetyjournal.com/research-highlights-lower-fire-risk-in-electric-cars-compared-to-petrol-and-diesel-vehicles/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Frank claims there to be 12 million EV's on the road and using the
>>> Australian numbers that would put the number of EV fires at 14,000.
>>> Frank claims that there were only 12 fires.
>>
>>
>> There are no good vehicle fires:
>>
>> https://www.theblaze.com/news/watch-bodycam-footage-released-after-los-angeles-teen-burns-to-death-in-horrifying-car-crash
>>
>> but thankfully auto immolation is relatively rare for both
>> systems.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> am@yellowjersey.org
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>
>
>
>
>
> Who could disagree with that? But if your ICE car is sitting in your
> garage it is safe. If an EV is in the garage just sitting there it is
> NOT. Elon has made them about a safe as possible for Lithium ion battery
> but other companies do not have his experience and are only copying Tesla
> without knowing why. This means that they make errors. Ford has hundreds
> of engineers that can be assigned each and every stage of safety, it is
> rare for EV manufacturers to have even a dozen. Should we be surprised if
> they are simply not reliable?
>

Tesla as with others buy batteries or licensed from others in Tesla case
Panasonic since 2009. Nothing special about their batteries, indeed they
chose 18650 types as they are ubiquitous than having to be special packs as
some other makers had used.

As far as I’m aware batteries with one exception (Nissan Leaf) have
massively outlasted doom laden expectations and have improved by some
margin over the last decade or more.

The idea of using old car batteries for X products has rather fell short
due to lack of supply ie the batteries are still largely in the cars.

Yes absolutely software can help with battery management and usage, and
ignore damaged cells. But if not all cars I’d assume use protected
batteries ie have a circuit to prevent damage and potentially fires. Ie
it’s a physical component than relying on software.

As ever battery fires are overwhelming stuff that is cheap and poorly made,
some of the early led bike lights the battery packs where very iffy and
advice was to charge in your garage not your home and so on, as these where
not consumer ready/quality, probably turn of the century I’d guess?

Roger Merriman

On Mon Mar 11 08:12:05 2024 Zen Cycle wrote:
> > On 3/10/2024 8:53 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> Frank, here is a statement from the National Highway Traffic Safety Board
> >>
> >> "In August 2012, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
> >> (NHTSA) decided to begin a US$8.75 million study of whether
> >> lithium-ion batteries in plug-electric vehicles pose a potential fire
> >> hazard. The research looked at whether the high-voltage batteries can
> >> cause fires when they are being charged and when the vehicles are
> >> involved in an accident.[23] The research from 2013 was initiated to
> >> evaluate the fire risk 400-volt lithium ion batteries pose. General
> >> Motors assisted the NHTSA researchers, and the study was issued in
> >> October 2017. The report concluded, "...ignition of flammable
> >> electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated
> >> to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for
> >> gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for
> >> Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller
> >> amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic
> >> failure situation."
>
> 1) This is an 11-year-old study. EV technology has coma a long way in
> the past decade.
> 2) it states "The overall consequences for Li-ion batteries are expected
> to be less because of the much smaller amounts of flammable solvent
> released and burning in a catastrophic failure situation." - directly
> contradicting all of your fear-mongering.
>
>
> >>
> >> This entire subject started when I attempted to warn you that EV's are
> >> unsafe to an extent that you're not aware of.
>
> Your article states exactly the opposite.
>
> >> But you violently denied
> >> that with all of the BS you could muster.
> >>
> >> Right there it says that EV fires are about as often as gasoline fires
> >> on ICE vehicles.
>
> No, it doesn't. It _predicts_..."ignition of flammable electrolytic
> solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated to be somewhat
> comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for gasoline or diesel
> vehicular fuels."
>
> >> That means RARE but ICE cars do not have gasoline
> >> explosions and are almost always caused by wrecks whereas EV
> >> explosions occur for little to no reason and are so violent that you
> >> cannot exit to safety in most cases.
>
> Your article makes no such conclusions.
>
> >> I realize that you believe that buying an EV proves your God-like
> >> judgement but if I were you I would put very many very loud fire
> >> detectors around your home. And keep their batteries up to date.
>
> Why do you care? If anything, one would think you would relish the idea
> of Franks house going up in a spectacular explosion, especially given
> all the times you've threatened to kill or maim him in this forum.
>
> You and the floriduh dumbass really need to take a remedial reading
> comprehension course
>

There you have it straight from the horse's ass - in the future batteries are EXPECTED to use less solvents. Not that they presently do.

On Tue Mar 12 14:00:35 2024 Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Mon Mar 11 14:10:43 2024 AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 3/11/2024 12:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Sun Mar 10 14:31:34 2024 Bob F wrote:
> >>>> On 3/10/2024 8:53 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> Frank, here is a statement from the National Highway Traffic Safety Board
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "In August 2012, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
> >>>>> (NHTSA) decided to begin a US$8.75 million study of whether
> >>>>> lithium-ion batteries in plug-electric vehicles pose a potential fire
> >>>>> hazard. The research looked at whether the high-voltage batteries can
> >>>>> cause fires when they are being charged and when the vehicles are
> >>>>> involved in an accident.[23] The research from 2013 was initiated to
> >>>>> evaluate the fire risk 400-volt lithium ion batteries pose. General
> >>>>> Motors assisted the NHTSA researchers, and the study was issued in
> >>>>> October 2017. The report concluded, "...ignition of flammable
> >>>>> electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated
> >>>>> to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for
> >>>>> gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for
> >>>>> Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller
> >>>>> amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic failure situation."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This entire subject started when I attempted to warn you that EV's
> >>>>> are unsafe to an extent that you're not aware of. But you violently
> >>>>> denied that with all of the BS you could muster.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Right there it says that EV fires are about as often as gasoline
> >>>>> fires on ICE vehicles. That means RARE but ICE cars do not have
> >>>>> gasoline explosions and are almost always caused by wrecks whereas EV
> >>>>> explosions occur for little to no reason and are so violent that you
> >>>>> cannot exit to safety in most cases.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I realize that you believe that buying an EV proves your God-like
> >>>>> judgement but if I were you I would put very many very loud fire
> >>>>> detectors around your home. And keep their batteries up to date.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> "Australia?s Department of Defence funded EV FireSafe to look into the
> >>>> question. It found there was a 0.0012% chance of a passenger electric
> >>>> vehicle battery catching fire, compared with a 0.1% chance for internal
> >>>> combustion engine cars. (The Home Office said it was unable to provide
> >>>> data for the UK.)
> >>>>
> >>>> Elon Musk?s Tesla is the world?s biggest maker of electric cars. It says
> >>>> the number of fires on US roads involving Teslas from 2012 to 2021 was
> >>>> 11 times lower per mile than the figure for all cars, the vast majority
> >>>> of which have petrol or diesel engines."
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/20/do-electric-cars-pose-a-greater-fire-risk-than-petrol-or-diesel-vehicles
> >>>>
> >>>> https://internationalfireandsafetyjournal.com/research-highlights-lower-fire-risk-in-electric-cars-compared-to-petrol-and-diesel-vehicles/
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Frank claims there to be 12 million EV's on the road and using the
> >>> Australian numbers that would put the number of EV fires at 14,000.
> >>> Frank claims that there were only 12 fires.
> >>
> >>
> >> There are no good vehicle fires:
> >>
> >> https://www.theblaze.com/news/watch-bodycam-footage-released-after-los-angeles-teen-burns-to-death-in-horrifying-car-crash
> >>
> >> but thankfully auto immolation is relatively rare for both
> >> systems.
> >> --
> >> Andrew Muzi
> >> am@yellowjersey.org
> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Who could disagree with that? But if your ICE car is sitting in your
> > garage it is safe. If an EV is in the garage just sitting there it is
> > NOT. Elon has made them about a safe as possible for Lithium ion battery
> > but other companies do not have his experience and are only copying Tesla
> > without knowing why. This means that they make errors. Ford has hundreds
> > of engineers that can be assigned each and every stage of safety, it is
> > rare for EV manufacturers to have even a dozen. Should we be surprised if
> > they are simply not reliable?
> >
>
> Tesla as with others buy batteries or licensed from others in Tesla case
> Panasonic since 2009. Nothing special about their batteries, indeed they
> chose 18650 types as they are ubiquitous than having to be special packs as
> some other makers had used.
>
> As far as I?m aware batteries with one exception (Nissan Leaf) have
> massively outlasted doom laden expectations and have improved by some
> margin over the last decade or more.
>
> The idea of using old car batteries for X products has rather fell short
> due to lack of supply ie the batteries are still largely in the cars.
>
> Yes absolutely software can help with battery management and usage, and
> ignore damaged cells. But if not all cars I?d assume use protected
> batteries ie have a circuit to prevent damage and potentially fires. Ie
> it?s a physical component than relying on software.
>
> As ever battery fires are overwhelming stuff that is cheap and poorly made,
> some of the early led bike lights the battery packs where very iffy and
> advice was to charge in your garage not your home and so on, as these where
> not consumer ready/quality, probably turn of the century I?d guess?
>
> Roger Merriman
>

Battery failures occur from small defects in the lining between the anode and cathode of the batteries that are too small to be noticed in production and grow worse over time from the heat created from the charging and discharging cycles. Solid state batteries do not have this problem but they are not presently being mqanufactured and I predict that they will have other problems that won't be known until mass manufacturing is brought on line.

Do you propose that you can put megawatt hours into a vehicle in any other manner than fossil fuels which trap the energy chemically, and not have problems?

On 3/12/2024 10:00 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Mon Mar 11 14:10:43 2024 AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 3/11/2024 12:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Sun Mar 10 14:31:34 2024 Bob F wrote:
>>>>> On 3/10/2024 8:53 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> Frank, here is a statement from the National Highway Traffic Safety Board
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "In August 2012, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
>>>>>> (NHTSA) decided to begin a US$8.75 million study of whether
>>>>>> lithium-ion batteries in plug-electric vehicles pose a potential fire
>>>>>> hazard. The research looked at whether the high-voltage batteries can
>>>>>> cause fires when they are being charged and when the vehicles are
>>>>>> involved in an accident.[23] The research from 2013 was initiated to
>>>>>> evaluate the fire risk 400-volt lithium ion batteries pose. General
>>>>>> Motors assisted the NHTSA researchers, and the study was issued in
>>>>>> October 2017. The report concluded, "...ignition of flammable
>>>>>> electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated
>>>>>> to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for
>>>>>> gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for
>>>>>> Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller
>>>>>> amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic failure situation."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This entire subject started when I attempted to warn you that EV's
>>>>>> are unsafe to an extent that you're not aware of. But you violently
>>>>>> denied that with all of the BS you could muster.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Right there it says that EV fires are about as often as gasoline
>>>>>> fires on ICE vehicles. That means RARE but ICE cars do not have
>>>>>> gasoline explosions and are almost always caused by wrecks whereas EV
>>>>>> explosions occur for little to no reason and are so violent that you
>>>>>> cannot exit to safety in most cases.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I realize that you believe that buying an EV proves your God-like
>>>>>> judgement but if I were you I would put very many very loud fire
>>>>>> detectors around your home. And keep their batteries up to date.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Australia?s Department of Defence funded EV FireSafe to look into the
>>>>> question. It found there was a 0.0012% chance of a passenger electric
>>>>> vehicle battery catching fire, compared with a 0.1% chance for internal
>>>>> combustion engine cars. (The Home Office said it was unable to provide
>>>>> data for the UK.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Elon Musk?s Tesla is the world?s biggest maker of electric cars. It says
>>>>> the number of fires on US roads involving Teslas from 2012 to 2021 was
>>>>> 11 times lower per mile than the figure for all cars, the vast majority
>>>>> of which have petrol or diesel engines."
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/20/do-electric-cars-pose-a-greater-fire-risk-than-petrol-or-diesel-vehicles
>>>>>
>>>>> https://internationalfireandsafetyjournal.com/research-highlights-lower-fire-risk-in-electric-cars-compared-to-petrol-and-diesel-vehicles/
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Frank claims there to be 12 million EV's on the road and using the
>>>> Australian numbers that would put the number of EV fires at 14,000.
>>>> Frank claims that there were only 12 fires.
>>>
>>>
>>> There are no good vehicle fires:
>>>
>>> https://www.theblaze.com/news/watch-bodycam-footage-released-after-los-angeles-teen-burns-to-death-in-horrifying-car-crash
>>>
>>> but thankfully auto immolation is relatively rare for both
>>> systems.
>>> --
>>> Andrew Muzi
>>> am@yellowjersey.org
>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Who could disagree with that? But if your ICE car is sitting in your
>> garage it is safe. If an EV is in the garage just sitting there it is
>> NOT. Elon has made them about a safe as possible for Lithium ion battery
>> but other companies do not have his experience and are only copying Tesla
>> without knowing why. This means that they make errors. Ford has hundreds
>> of engineers that can be assigned each and every stage of safety, it is
>> rare for EV manufacturers to have even a dozen. Should we be surprised if
>> they are simply not reliable?
>>
>
> Tesla as with others buy batteries or licensed from others in Tesla case
> Panasonic since 2009. Nothing special about their batteries, indeed they
> chose 18650 types as they are ubiquitous than having to be special packs as
> some other makers had used.
>
> As far as I’m aware batteries with one exception (Nissan Leaf) have
> massively outlasted doom laden expectations and have improved by some
> margin over the last decade or more.
>
> The idea of using old car batteries for X products has rather fell short
> due to lack of supply ie the batteries are still largely in the cars.
>
> Yes absolutely software can help with battery management and usage, and
> ignore damaged cells. But if not all cars I’d assume use protected
> batteries ie have a circuit to prevent damage and potentially fires. Ie
> it’s a physical component than relying on software.
>
> As ever battery fires are overwhelming stuff that is cheap and poorly made,
> some of the early led bike lights the battery packs where very iffy and
> advice was to charge in your garage not your home and so on, as these where
> not consumer ready/quality, probably turn of the century I’d guess?
>
> Roger Merriman
>

"only copying Tesla
without knowing why. "

fer fucks sake...Now we know why tommy could never hold onto a job for a
year.
--
Add xx to reply

On Tue Mar 12 10:32:49 2024 Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 3/12/2024 10:00 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On Mon Mar 11 14:10:43 2024 AMuzi wrote:
> >>> On 3/11/2024 12:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>> On Sun Mar 10 14:31:34 2024 Bob F wrote:
> >>>>> On 3/10/2024 8:53 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>> Frank, here is a statement from the National Highway Traffic Safety Board
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "In August 2012, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
> >>>>>> (NHTSA) decided to begin a US$8.75 million study of whether
> >>>>>> lithium-ion batteries in plug-electric vehicles pose a potential fire
> >>>>>> hazard. The research looked at whether the high-voltage batteries can
> >>>>>> cause fires when they are being charged and when the vehicles are
> >>>>>> involved in an accident.[23] The research from 2013 was initiated to
> >>>>>> evaluate the fire risk 400-volt lithium ion batteries pose. General
> >>>>>> Motors assisted the NHTSA researchers, and the study was issued in
> >>>>>> October 2017. The report concluded, "...ignition of flammable
> >>>>>> electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated
> >>>>>> to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for
> >>>>>> gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for
> >>>>>> Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller
> >>>>>> amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic failure situation."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This entire subject started when I attempted to warn you that EV's
> >>>>>> are unsafe to an extent that you're not aware of. But you violently
> >>>>>> denied that with all of the BS you could muster.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Right there it says that EV fires are about as often as gasoline
> >>>>>> fires on ICE vehicles. That means RARE but ICE cars do not have
> >>>>>> gasoline explosions and are almost always caused by wrecks whereas EV
> >>>>>> explosions occur for little to no reason and are so violent that you
> >>>>>> cannot exit to safety in most cases.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I realize that you believe that buying an EV proves your God-like
> >>>>>> judgement but if I were you I would put very many very loud fire
> >>>>>> detectors around your home. And keep their batteries up to date.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Australia?s Department of Defence funded EV FireSafe to look into the
> >>>>> question. It found there was a 0.0012% chance of a passenger electric
> >>>>> vehicle battery catching fire, compared with a 0.1% chance for internal
> >>>>> combustion engine cars. (The Home Office said it was unable to provide
> >>>>> data for the UK.)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Elon Musk?s Tesla is the world?s biggest maker of electric cars. It says
> >>>>> the number of fires on US roads involving Teslas from 2012 to 2021 was
> >>>>> 11 times lower per mile than the figure for all cars, the vast majority
> >>>>> of which have petrol or diesel engines."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/20/do-electric-cars-pose-a-greater-fire-risk-than-petrol-or-diesel-vehicles
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://internationalfireandsafetyjournal.com/research-highlights-lower-fire-risk-in-electric-cars-compared-to-petrol-and-diesel-vehicles/
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Frank claims there to be 12 million EV's on the road and using the
> >>>> Australian numbers that would put the number of EV fires at 14,000.
> >>>> Frank claims that there were only 12 fires.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> There are no good vehicle fires:
> >>>
> >>> https://www.theblaze.com/news/watch-bodycam-footage-released-after-los-angeles-teen-burns-to-death-in-horrifying-car-crash
> >>>
> >>> but thankfully auto immolation is relatively rare for both
> >>> systems.
> >>> --
> >>> Andrew Muzi
> >>> am@yellowjersey.org
> >>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Who could disagree with that? But if your ICE car is sitting in your
> >> garage it is safe. If an EV is in the garage just sitting there it is
> >> NOT. Elon has made them about a safe as possible for Lithium ion battery
> >> but other companies do not have his experience and are only copying Tesla
> >> without knowing why. This means that they make errors. Ford has hundreds
> >> of engineers that can be assigned each and every stage of safety, it is
> >> rare for EV manufacturers to have even a dozen. Should we be surprised if
> >> they are simply not reliable?
> >>
> >
> > Tesla as with others buy batteries or licensed from others in Tesla case
> > Panasonic since 2009. Nothing special about their batteries, indeed they
> > chose 18650 types as they are ubiquitous than having to be special packs as
> > some other makers had used.
> >
> > As far as I?m aware batteries with one exception (Nissan Leaf) have
> > massively outlasted doom laden expectations and have improved by some
> > margin over the last decade or more.
> >
> > The idea of using old car batteries for X products has rather fell short
> > due to lack of supply ie the batteries are still largely in the cars.
> >
> > Yes absolutely software can help with battery management and usage, and
> > ignore damaged cells. But if not all cars I?d assume use protected
> > batteries ie have a circuit to prevent damage and potentially fires. Ie
> > it?s a physical component than relying on software.
> >
> > As ever battery fires are overwhelming stuff that is cheap and poorly made,
> > some of the early led bike lights the battery packs where very iffy and
> > advice was to charge in your garage not your home and so on, as these where
> > not consumer ready/quality, probably turn of the century I?d guess?
> >
> > Roger Merriman
> >
>
> "only copying Tesla
> without knowing why. "
>
> fer fucks sake...Now we know why tommy could never hold onto a job for a
> year.
> --
> Add xx to reply
>

And now we know why Flunky has been stuck in a job for his entire life that condists of nothing more than signing papers off to make it appear that they hired someone that knew what they were doing.

Only a useless Flunky wouldn't know that development jobs only last as long as it takes to develope a product. But never having actually worked a development job and not even knowing what one is he forces his revolting personality on the world around him.

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Tue Mar 12 14:00:35 2024 Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On Mon Mar 11 14:10:43 2024 AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 3/11/2024 12:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Sun Mar 10 14:31:34 2024 Bob F wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/10/2024 8:53 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>> Frank, here is a statement from the National Highway Traffic Safety Board
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "In August 2012, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
>>>>>>> (NHTSA) decided to begin a US$8.75 million study of whether
>>>>>>> lithium-ion batteries in plug-electric vehicles pose a potential fire
>>>>>>> hazard. The research looked at whether the high-voltage batteries can
>>>>>>> cause fires when they are being charged and when the vehicles are
>>>>>>> involved in an accident.[23] The research from 2013 was initiated to
>>>>>>> evaluate the fire risk 400-volt lithium ion batteries pose. General
>>>>>>> Motors assisted the NHTSA researchers, and the study was issued in
>>>>>>> October 2017. The report concluded, "...ignition of flammable
>>>>>>> electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated
>>>>>>> to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for
>>>>>>> gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for
>>>>>>> Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller
>>>>>>> amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic failure
>>>>>>> situation."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This entire subject started when I attempted to warn you that EV's
>>>>>>> are unsafe to an extent that you're not aware of. But you violently
>>>>>>> denied that with all of the BS you could muster.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Right there it says that EV fires are about as often as gasoline
>>>>>>> fires on ICE vehicles. That means RARE but ICE cars do not have
>>>>>>> gasoline explosions and are almost always caused by wrecks whereas EV
>>>>>>> explosions occur for little to no reason and are so violent that you
>>>>>>> cannot exit to safety in most cases.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I realize that you believe that buying an EV proves your God-like
>>>>>>> judgement but if I were you I would put very many very loud fire
>>>>>>> detectors around your home. And keep their batteries up to date.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Australia?s Department of Defence funded EV FireSafe to look into the
>>>>>> question. It found there was a 0.0012% chance of a passenger electric
>>>>>> vehicle battery catching fire, compared with a 0.1% chance for internal
>>>>>> combustion engine cars. (The Home Office said it was unable to provide
>>>>>> data for the UK.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Elon Musk?s Tesla is the world?s biggest maker of electric cars. It says
>>>>>> the number of fires on US roads involving Teslas from 2012 to 2021 was
>>>>>> 11 times lower per mile than the figure for all cars, the vast majority
>>>>>> of which have petrol or diesel engines."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/20/do-electric-cars-pose-a-greater-fire-risk-than-petrol-or-diesel-vehicles
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://internationalfireandsafetyjournal.com/research-highlights-lower-fire-risk-in-electric-cars-compared-to-petrol-and-diesel-vehicles/
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Frank claims there to be 12 million EV's on the road and using the
>>>>> Australian numbers that would put the number of EV fires at 14,000.
>>>>> Frank claims that there were only 12 fires.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are no good vehicle fires:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.theblaze.com/news/watch-bodycam-footage-released-after-los-angeles-teen-burns-to-death-in-horrifying-car-crash
>>>>
>>>> but thankfully auto immolation is relatively rare for both
>>>> systems.
>>>> --
>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>> am@yellowjersey.org
>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Who could disagree with that? But if your ICE car is sitting in your
>>> garage it is safe. If an EV is in the garage just sitting there it is
>>> NOT. Elon has made them about a safe as possible for Lithium ion battery
>>> but other companies do not have his experience and are only copying Tesla
>>> without knowing why. This means that they make errors. Ford has hundreds
>>> of engineers that can be assigned each and every stage of safety, it is
>>> rare for EV manufacturers to have even a dozen. Should we be surprised if
>>> they are simply not reliable?
>>>
>>
>> Tesla as with others buy batteries or licensed from others in Tesla case
>> Panasonic since 2009. Nothing special about their batteries, indeed they
>> chose 18650 types as they are ubiquitous than having to be special packs as
>> some other makers had used.
>>
>> As far as I?m aware batteries with one exception (Nissan Leaf) have
>> massively outlasted doom laden expectations and have improved by some
>> margin over the last decade or more.
>>
>> The idea of using old car batteries for X products has rather fell short
>> due to lack of supply ie the batteries are still largely in the cars.
>>
>> Yes absolutely software can help with battery management and usage, and
>> ignore damaged cells. But if not all cars I?d assume use protected
>> batteries ie have a circuit to prevent damage and potentially fires. Ie
>> it?s a physical component than relying on software.
>>
>> As ever battery fires are overwhelming stuff that is cheap and poorly made,
>> some of the early led bike lights the battery packs where very iffy and
>> advice was to charge in your garage not your home and so on, as these where
>> not consumer ready/quality, probably turn of the century I?d guess?
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>>
>
>
>
>
> Battery failures occur from small defects in the lining between the anode
> and cathode of the batteries that are too small to be noticed in
> production and grow worse over time from the heat created from the
> charging and discharging cycles. Solid state batteries do not have this
> problem but they are not presently being mqanufactured and I predict that
> they will have other problems that won't be known until mass
> manufacturing is brought on line.
>
> Do you propose that you can put megawatt hours into a vehicle in any
> other manner than fossil fuels which trap the energy chemically, and not have problems?
>
And yet they have less issues than Fossil fuel cars in terms of rate.

Roger Merriman

On Tue Mar 12 16:12:06 2024 Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Tue Mar 12 14:00:35 2024 Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> On Mon Mar 11 14:10:43 2024 AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 3/11/2024 12:53 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>> On Sun Mar 10 14:31:34 2024 Bob F wrote:
> >>>>>> On 3/10/2024 8:53 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>> Frank, here is a statement from the National Highway Traffic Safety Board
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "In August 2012, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
> >>>>>>> (NHTSA) decided to begin a US$8.75 million study of whether
> >>>>>>> lithium-ion batteries in plug-electric vehicles pose a potential fire
> >>>>>>> hazard. The research looked at whether the high-voltage batteries can
> >>>>>>> cause fires when they are being charged and when the vehicles are
> >>>>>>> involved in an accident.[23] The research from 2013 was initiated to
> >>>>>>> evaluate the fire risk 400-volt lithium ion batteries pose. General
> >>>>>>> Motors assisted the NHTSA researchers, and the study was issued in
> >>>>>>> October 2017. The report concluded, "...ignition of flammable
> >>>>>>> electrolytic solvents used in Li-ion battery systems are anticipated
> >>>>>>> to be somewhat comparable to or perhaps slightly less than those for
> >>>>>>> gasoline or diesel vehicular fuels. The overall consequences for
> >>>>>>> Li-ion batteries are expected to be less because of the much smaller
> >>>>>>> amounts of flammable solvent released and burning in a catastrophic failure
> >>>>>>> situation."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This entire subject started when I attempted to warn you that EV's
> >>>>>>> are unsafe to an extent that you're not aware of. But you violently
> >>>>>>> denied that with all of the BS you could muster.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Right there it says that EV fires are about as often as gasoline
> >>>>>>> fires on ICE vehicles. That means RARE but ICE cars do not have
> >>>>>>> gasoline explosions and are almost always caused by wrecks whereas EV
> >>>>>>> explosions occur for little to no reason and are so violent that you
> >>>>>>> cannot exit to safety in most cases.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I realize that you believe that buying an EV proves your God-like
> >>>>>>> judgement but if I were you I would put very many very loud fire
> >>>>>>> detectors around your home. And keep their batteries up to date.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "Australia?s Department of Defence funded EV FireSafe to look into the
> >>>>>> question. It found there was a 0.0012% chance of a passenger electric
> >>>>>> vehicle battery catching fire, compared with a 0.1% chance for internal
> >>>>>> combustion engine cars. (The Home Office said it was unable to provide
> >>>>>> data for the UK.)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Elon Musk?s Tesla is the world?s biggest maker of electric cars. It says
> >>>>>> the number of fires on US roads involving Teslas from 2012 to 2021 was
> >>>>>> 11 times lower per mile than the figure for all cars, the vast majority
> >>>>>> of which have petrol or diesel engines."
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/20/do-electric-cars-pose-a-greater-fire-risk-than-petrol-or-diesel-vehicles
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://internationalfireandsafetyjournal.com/research-highlights-lower-fire-risk-in-electric-cars-compared-to-petrol-and-diesel-vehicles/
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Frank claims there to be 12 million EV's on the road and using the
> >>>>> Australian numbers that would put the number of EV fires at 14,000.
> >>>>> Frank claims that there were only 12 fires.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> There are no good vehicle fires:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.theblaze.com/news/watch-bodycam-footage-released-after-los-angeles-teen-burns-to-death-in-horrifying-car-crash
> >>>>
> >>>> but thankfully auto immolation is relatively rare for both
> >>>> systems.
> >>>> --
> >>>> Andrew Muzi
> >>>> am@yellowjersey.org
> >>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Who could disagree with that? But if your ICE car is sitting in your
> >>> garage it is safe. If an EV is in the garage just sitting there it is
> >>> NOT. Elon has made them about a safe as possible for Lithium ion battery
> >>> but other companies do not have his experience and are only copying Tesla
> >>> without knowing why. This means that they make errors. Ford has hundreds
> >>> of engineers that can be assigned each and every stage of safety, it is
> >>> rare for EV manufacturers to have even a dozen. Should we be surprised if
> >>> they are simply not reliable?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Tesla as with others buy batteries or licensed from others in Tesla case
> >> Panasonic since 2009. Nothing special about their batteries, indeed they
> >> chose 18650 types as they are ubiquitous than having to be special packs as
> >> some other makers had used.
> >>
> >> As far as I?m aware batteries with one exception (Nissan Leaf) have
> >> massively outlasted doom laden expectations and have improved by some
> >> margin over the last decade or more.
> >>
> >> The idea of using old car batteries for X products has rather fell short
> >> due to lack of supply ie the batteries are still largely in the cars.
> >>
> >> Yes absolutely software can help with battery management and usage, and
> >> ignore damaged cells. But if not all cars I?d assume use protected
> >> batteries ie have a circuit to prevent damage and potentially fires. Ie
> >> it?s a physical component than relying on software.
> >>
> >> As ever battery fires are overwhelming stuff that is cheap and poorly made,
> >> some of the early led bike lights the battery packs where very iffy and
> >> advice was to charge in your garage not your home and so on, as these where
> >> not consumer ready/quality, probably turn of the century I?d guess?
> >>
> >> Roger Merriman
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Battery failures occur from small defects in the lining between the anode
> > and cathode of the batteries that are too small to be noticed in
> > production and grow worse over time from the heat created from the
> > charging and discharging cycles. Solid state batteries do not have this
> > problem but they are not presently being mqanufactured and I predict that
> > they will have other problems that won't be known until mass
> > manufacturing is brought on line.
> >
> > Do you propose that you can put megawatt hours into a vehicle in any
> > other manner than fossil fuels which trap the energy chemically, and not have problems?
> >
> And yet they have less issues than Fossil fuel cars in terms of rate.
>
> Roger Merriman
>

Roger, you have been lied about absolutely everything from the danger from Cofid-19, to the effectiveness of the vaccines. You have been completely lied to about the successes of the Ukraine against Russia when virtually EVERY military age of Ukrainians have been slaughtered and the only reason that Russia hasn't taken more is because they are being careful not ot engage the US forces that are there that the US has been lying about. You have completely lied to about man-made global warming and the entire slime stream media hid the fact that Obama was a drug addicted male prostitute! You were lied to by Bill Clinton that there were biological and chemical warfare devices in Iraq when there WERE NOT. There were laboratories looking into chemical warfare that they intended to use in case they were invaded by Iran and they ceased making them when the charge was made at the UN. I programmed the poison gas detector for the Army and they KNEW that it was only to be used to root out the remains of the labs.

On 3/12/2024 8:48 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> Who could disagree with that? But if your ICE car is sitting in your
garage it is safe. If an EV is in the garage just sitting there it is NOT.

Bullshit. Several people have shown you data indicating you're wrong by
miles. Where's you data (not anecdotes) claiming you're correct?

> Ford has hundreds of engineers that can be assigned each and every
stage of safety, it is rare for EV manufacturers to have even a dozen.

And you know that ... how?

Tom, your problem is your maniacal trust in your own overactive
imagination.

--
- Frank Krygowski