On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 12:04:40 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Mar 2024 22:07:58 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The line between what is leisure and what is sport is somewhat arbitrary,
>>
>> Fishing is both leisure and a sport. So is throwing darts and
>> billards. Why not bicycling?
>>
>
>Clearly it is both, not convinced most folks would see either darts or
>fishing as a sport, clearly has competitive appeal for some though
>certainly for fishing in my experience it’s mainly a sitting with your mate
>or on your own.
>
>And equally darts down the pub is much like pool or pub quizzes. Ie the act
>of winning or losing isn’t particularly important.
>
>Roger Merriman

sport
noun

a game or activity that people do to keep healthy or for enjoyment,
often competing against each other:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/learner-english/sport

On 3/17/2024 5:41 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Mar 2024 22:07:58 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The line between what is leisure and what is sport is somewhat arbitrary,
>
> Fishing is both leisure and a sport. So is throwing darts and
> billards. Why not bicycling?

Clearly both. I doubt anyone here disputes that.
Where to draw a line is a different matter.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 09:27:16 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 3/17/2024 5:41 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Mar 2024 22:07:58 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The line between what is leisure and what is sport is somewhat arbitrary,
>>
>> Fishing is both leisure and a sport. So is throwing darts and
>> billards. Why not bicycling?
>
>Clearly both. I doubt anyone here disputes that.
>Where to draw a line is a different matter.

It's an issue of differing opinions about the terminology. Similar,
IMHO, to arguments about preferences in toilet paper colors.

I suspect that most people who I encounter out on their bicycle rides
would define their bicycling as a sport.

On 3/17/2024 1:16 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 09:27:16 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 3/17/2024 5:41 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>> On Sat, 16 Mar 2024 22:07:58 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The line between what is leisure and what is sport is somewhat arbitrary,
>>>
>>> Fishing is both leisure and a sport. So is throwing darts and
>>> billards. Why not bicycling?
>>
>> Clearly both. I doubt anyone here disputes that.
>> Where to draw a line is a different matter.
>
> It's an issue of differing opinions about the terminology. Similar,
> IMHO, to arguments about preferences in toilet paper colors.
>
> I suspect that most people who I encounter out on their bicycle rides
> would define their bicycling as a sport.

We agree, most riders would not.

Colored TP? Really?
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 14:17:15 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 3/17/2024 1:16 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 09:27:16 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/17/2024 5:41 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 16 Mar 2024 22:07:58 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The line between what is leisure and what is sport is somewhat arbitrary,
>>>>
>>>> Fishing is both leisure and a sport. So is throwing darts and
>>>> billards. Why not bicycling?
>>>
>>> Clearly both. I doubt anyone here disputes that.
>>> Where to draw a line is a different matter.
>>
>> It's an issue of differing opinions about the terminology. Similar,
>> IMHO, to arguments about preferences in toilet paper colors.
>>
>> I suspect that most people who I encounter out on their bicycle rides
>> would define their bicycling as a sport.
>
>We agree, most riders would not.
>
>Colored TP? Really?

Yes, really:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=toilet+paper+money&tbm=isch>
Get some before inflation makes it worthless for the original intended
use.

In my never humble opinion, the distinction between a sport and
everything else (leisure) is whether someone is logging time,
distance, annual distance, first to arrive, last to arrive, etc.
Commuting to work on a road or time trial bicycle built for speed is
not a sport if nobody records the time, distance, elevation, etc.
Logging the commute time, distance, etc with a smartwatch, smartphone
or Strava is what makes it a sport.

Hint: If someone invents a contrivance that moves, early adopters
will soon appear, ready to competitively race it. Even if it doesn't
move easily, there will be those who will compete with it based on
performance results, such as the fastest computers:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOP500>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 14:17:15 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 3/17/2024 1:16 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>> On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 09:27:16 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/17/2024 5:41 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 16 Mar 2024 22:07:58 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The line between what is leisure and what is sport is somewhat arbitrary,
>>>>>
>>>>> Fishing is both leisure and a sport. So is throwing darts and
>>>>> billards. Why not bicycling?
>>>>
>>>> Clearly both. I doubt anyone here disputes that.
>>>> Where to draw a line is a different matter.
>>>
>>> It's an issue of differing opinions about the terminology. Similar,
>>> IMHO, to arguments about preferences in toilet paper colors.
>>>
>>> I suspect that most people who I encounter out on their bicycle rides
>>> would define their bicycling as a sport.
>>
>> We agree, most riders would not.
>>
>> Colored TP? Really?
>
> Yes, really:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=toilet+paper+money&tbm=isch>
> Get some before inflation makes it worthless for the original intended
> use.
>
> In my never humble opinion, the distinction between a sport and
> everything else (leisure) is whether someone is logging time,
> distance, annual distance, first to arrive, last to arrive, etc.
> Commuting to work on a road or time trial bicycle built for speed is
> not a sport if nobody records the time, distance, elevation, etc.
> Logging the commute time, distance, etc with a smartwatch, smartphone
> or Strava is what makes it a sport.
>
Yup Strava or similar is fairly good threshold from leisure into sport.

> Hint: If someone invents a contrivance that moves, early adopters
> will soon appear, ready to competitively race it. Even if it doesn't
> move easily, there will be those who will compete with it based on
> performance results, such as the fastest computers:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOP500>
>
>
>
>
Yup some folks will compete over anything!

Roger Merriman

On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 21:24:36 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Yup some folks will compete over anything!
>Roger Merriman

Someone mentioned Solitaire as an example of a non-competitive leisure
activity. Anything that involves a single player couldn't possibly be
competitive. Wrong. I've been playing Solitaire on various
smartphones daily since about 2009 and have been involved in a few
competitions. It doesn't take much to turn a single player sport into
a multi-player competition:
<https://www.solitaire-palace.com>
More:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=competitive+solitaire>
There are also versions of Solitaire that have been modified for
multiple players.
"how to play NERTs (like solitaire but multiple player)"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhNqrEzqKzk>
One might suspect that humans are incurably competitive.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 3/17/2024 8:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> One might suspect that humans are incurably competitive.

Well, perhaps some humans are incurably competitive. Others couldn't
care less about competing.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 17:45:00 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 21:24:36 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Yup some folks will compete over anything!
>>Roger Merriman
>
>Someone mentioned Solitaire as an example of a non-competitive leisure
>activity. Anything that involves a single player couldn't possibly be
>competitive. Wrong. I've been playing Solitaire on various
>smartphones daily since about 2009 and have been involved in a few
>competitions. It doesn't take much to turn a single player sport into
>a multi-player competition:
><https://www.solitaire-palace.com>
>More:
><https://www.google.com/search?q=competitive+solitaire>
>There are also versions of Solitaire that have been modified for
>multiple players.
>"how to play NERTs (like solitaire but multiple player)"
><https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhNqrEzqKzk>
>One might suspect that humans are incurably competitive.

Many people compete with themselves, trying to win at Freecell (my
game) in the shortest time or with the least amount of moves. I used
to be fanatical about upping my average speed and lowering my total
time on 40 mile bike rides.

There are many self competitive activities for a person like mysellf
with a philosophy of not playing well with others and a long standing
reputation thereof.

On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 23:26:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/17/2024 8:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>
>> One might suspect that humans are incurably competitive.
>
>Well, perhaps some humans are incurably competitive. Others couldn't
>care less about competing.

....and some avoid competition because they can't emotionally handle
not always being the winner.

On 3/17/2024 7:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 21:24:36 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Yup some folks will compete over anything!
>> Roger Merriman
>
> Someone mentioned Solitaire as an example of a non-competitive leisure
> activity. Anything that involves a single player couldn't possibly be
> competitive. Wrong. I've been playing Solitaire on various
> smartphones daily since about 2009 and have been involved in a few
> competitions. It doesn't take much to turn a single player sport into
> a multi-player competition:
> <https://www.solitaire-palace.com>
> More:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=competitive+solitaire>
> There are also versions of Solitaire that have been modified for
> multiple players.
> "how to play NERTs (like solitaire but multiple player)"
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhNqrEzqKzk>
> One might suspect that humans are incurably competitive.
>

Much like pinball.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 23:26:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/17/2024 8:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> One might suspect that humans are incurably competitive.

>Well, perhaps some humans are incurably competitive. Others couldn't
>care less about competing.

Competition is an important survival trait. Humans climb the
evolutionary ladder largely by eliminating inferior competitors
through competition. Survival of the fittest, trial by combat and
wars are all forms of competitive evolution (or evolutionary
competition). Humans recognized early that killing off mediocre
evolutionary competitors will eventually become counter productive.
Instead, we have mock battles in the form of games, sports, time
trials and bicycle races. Those who couldn't care less are the
dropouts from these games and sports. After about 2 million years of
evolution, the need to compete is baked into our genetic recipe.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 3/18/2024 8:03 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Mar 2024 23:26:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/17/2024 8:45 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> One might suspect that humans are incurably competitive.
>
>> Well, perhaps some humans are incurably competitive. Others couldn't
>> care less about competing.
>
> Competition is an important survival trait. Humans climb the
> evolutionary ladder largely by eliminating inferior competitors
> through competition. Survival of the fittest, trial by combat and
> wars are all forms of competitive evolution (or evolutionary
> competition).

Agreed.

> Humans recognized early that killing off mediocre
> evolutionary competitors will eventually become counter productive.
> Instead, we have mock battles in the form of games, sports, time
> trials and bicycle races.

Also agreed. I think that's the sociological root of organized sports.

> Those who couldn't care less are the
> dropouts from these games and sports. After about 2 million years of
> evolution, the need to compete is baked into our genetic recipe.

Perhaps, although not everything in our genes must absolutely be
expressed. Also, much as been written lately about the value of
cooperation for the developing human race, so that's probably in our
genes as well.

Nonetheless, I have a couple friends with whom I bicycle, hike, kayak
and play music who AFAIK have zero interest in competition of any kind.
Not even board games! As you say, they are among the game and sport
dropouts.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 21:49:32 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Also, much as been written lately about the value of
>cooperation for the developing human race, so that's probably in our
>genes as well.

Cooperation is what people strive for when they're afraid to compete.

Am 19.03.2024 um 15:38 schrieb Catrike Ryder:
> On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 21:49:32 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Also, much as been written lately about the value of
>> cooperation for the developing human race, so that's probably in our
>> genes as well.
>
> Cooperation is what people strive for when they're afraid to compete.

Cooperation requires less energy for a similar benefit. Therefore,
people (and also animals) are best off cooperating when meaningful but
ready to compete when necessary.

On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 16:15:27 +0100, Rolf Mantel
<news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:

>Am 19.03.2024 um 15:38 schrieb Catrike Ryder:
>> On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 21:49:32 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Also, much as been written lately about the value of
>>> cooperation for the developing human race, so that's probably in our
>>> genes as well.
>>
>> Cooperation is what people strive for when they're afraid to compete.
>
>Cooperation requires less energy for a similar benefit. Therefore,
>people (and also animals) are best off cooperating when meaningful but
>ready to compete when necessary.

Often, cooperation becomes a group think session and other times it's
an I'll lead, you follow arrangement like the bicycle group rides.

I have a small list of friends and relatives that I'm happy to
cooperate with and avoid the rest as best I can.

On 3/19/2024 12:14 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 16:15:27 +0100, Rolf Mantel
> <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>
>> Am 19.03.2024 um 15:38 schrieb Catrike Ryder:
>>> On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 21:49:32 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Also, much as been written lately about the value of
>>>> cooperation for the developing human race, so that's probably in our
>>>> genes as well.
>>>
>>> Cooperation is what people strive for when they're afraid to compete.
>>
>> Cooperation requires less energy for a similar benefit. Therefore,
>> people (and also animals) are best off cooperating when meaningful but
>> ready to compete when necessary.
>
>
> Often, cooperation becomes a group think session and other times it's
> an I'll lead, you follow arrangement like the bicycle group rides.
>
> I have a small list of friends and relatives that I'm happy to
> cooperate with and avoid the rest as best I can.

I'm sure "the rest" are very happy about that. You should employ that
same behavior here.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 14:18:25 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/19/2024 12:14 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 16:15:27 +0100, Rolf Mantel
>> <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>
>>> Am 19.03.2024 um 15:38 schrieb Catrike Ryder:
>>>> On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 21:49:32 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Also, much as been written lately about the value of
>>>>> cooperation for the developing human race, so that's probably in our
>>>>> genes as well.
>>>>
>>>> Cooperation is what people strive for when they're afraid to compete.
>>>
>>> Cooperation requires less energy for a similar benefit. Therefore,
>>> people (and also animals) are best off cooperating when meaningful but
>>> ready to compete when necessary.
>>
>>
>> Often, cooperation becomes a group think session and other times it's
>> an I'll lead, you follow arrangement like the bicycle group rides.
>>
>> I have a small list of friends and relatives that I'm happy to
>> cooperate with and avoid the rest as best I can.
>
>I'm sure "the rest" are very happy about that. You should employ that
>same behavior here.

I wouldn't know about "the rest" and neither do you since neither of
us is acquanted with "the rest."

As for what I should do, unlike you, I'm not even slightly interested
in what other poeple think about me.

On 3/19/2024 2:18 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/19/2024 12:14 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> On Tue, 19 Mar 2024 16:15:27 +0100, Rolf Mantel
>> <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>
>>> Am 19.03.2024 um 15:38 schrieb Catrike Ryder:
>>>> On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 21:49:32 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Also, much as been written lately about the value of
>>>>> cooperation for the developing human race, so that's probably in our
>>>>> genes as well.
>>>>
>>>> Cooperation is what people strive for when they're afraid to compete.
>>>
>>> Cooperation requires less energy for a similar benefit.  Therefore,
>>> people (and also animals) are best off cooperating when meaningful but
>>> ready to compete when necessary.
>>
>>
>> Often, cooperation becomes a group think session and other times it's
>> an I'll lead, you follow arrangement like the bicycle group rides.
>>
>> I have a small list of friends and relatives that I'm happy to
>> cooperate with and avoid the rest as best I can.
>
> I'm sure "the rest" are very happy about that. You should employ that
> same behavior here.

+1