On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 12:39:19 PM UTC-7, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> In article <jklenh...@mid.individual.net>, bow...@montana.com
> says...
> >
> > In general, no. Excluding weather fronts thermal heating is responsible
> > for a lot of air motion. This is particularly noticeable in the desert.
> > The wind picks up when the sun rises and usually calms down after
> > sunset. If you don't like sand in your hamburgers grill after dark.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> I thought something like that but did not know for sure. My thinking
> was that not too long after sunset there was no heat to make much wind
> where the wind generators would be at.

Perhaps to a lesser degree. But there is wind as long as the Earth is turning. We have rather windy nights near the ocean as well.

On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 12:37:20 -0700 (PDT), Rich S
<richsulinengineer@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 5:38:16 AM UTC, Flyguy wrote:
>> They have NO CLUE what will be required of the electrical grid to support the quantity of EVs envisioned by these idiots. How much increase in grid capacity do YOU think will be required? Post your answers below.
>
>
>Speaking for US only, the "Residential", and "Commercial/Public Services" are the roughly at top
> consumers of electricity (each 36-38% of total energy consumed per year). If we've talking about
> electric vehicles, both of those sectors are relevant.
>
>In the Residential sector, for many homes, typically, the appliance with highest electricity use is
>the refrigerator. (typical ~ exclude extra heating).
>
>And so the move has been for many years, getting people to replace the old inefficient
>models with modern more efficient ones. Refrigerators & such, via Energy Star program
>have advertised the benefit at retail, when most people make their shopping choices.
>
>Getting individuals to be aware of how their individual choices impact the collective society, is (ahem)
>quite difficult & touchy, I think we'd all agree......
>

There is a war on natural gas in several places in California. No gas
hookups allowed on new construction. They want houses to be all
electric.

That could get interesting. And expensive.

On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 08:33:39 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 1:38:16 AM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
>> They have NO CLUE what will be required of the electrical grid to support the quantity of EVs envisioned by these idiots. How much increase in grid capacity do YOU think will be required? Post your answers below.
>
>When all cars are BEVs, it will result in a 20% increase in total electrical generation from today's levels.
>
>More than 95% of BEV charging is done at night, during the slack time of electrical demand. This 95+% will not require any additional generation or transmission capability. The remaining <5% of 20% or <1% of charging will be at peak time. So the existing grid will need to grow by 1% to accommodate charging that will happen at peak time.

Depends on the electric production mix in a particular country.

If you have plenty of nuclear power, charging by night (and weekends)
makes perfectly sense.

However, if you have to use expensive peak power gas turbines during
the day, extending the high demand to the night would force to use
these expensive turbines into the night.

With plenty of solar power, charging during the day is also viable.

If you live in a sunny area and only drive short distances daily, you
could even live without external charging :-) :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightyear_One
That car has 5 m^2 solar panels of its own, so it would charge
batteries with a few hundred watts while driving on a sunny road or
when parked in a sunny car park.

On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 23:36:43 +0300, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

>On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 08:33:39 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
><gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 1:38:16 AM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
>>> They have NO CLUE what will be required of the electrical grid to support the quantity of EVs envisioned by these idiots. How much increase in grid capacity do YOU think will be required? Post your answers below.
>>
>>When all cars are BEVs, it will result in a 20% increase in total electrical generation from today's levels.
>>
>>More than 95% of BEV charging is done at night, during the slack time of electrical demand. This 95+% will not require any additional generation or transmission capability. The remaining <5% of 20% or <1% of charging will be at peak time. So the existing grid will need to grow by 1% to accommodate charging that will happen at peak time.
>
>Depends on the electric production mix in a particular country.
>
>If you have plenty of nuclear power, charging by night (and weekends)
>makes perfectly sense.
>
>However, if you have to use expensive peak power gas turbines during
>the day, extending the high demand to the night would force to use
>these expensive turbines into the night.
>
>With plenty of solar power, charging during the day is also viable.
>
>If you live in a sunny area and only drive short distances daily, you
>could even live without external charging :-) :-)
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightyear_One
>That car has 5 m^2 solar panels of its own, so it would charge
>batteries with a few hundred watts while driving on a sunny road or
>when parked in a sunny car park.

Really funny. If the solar panels add 40 miles per day of range, it
would run about 5 MPH on solar power. In the summer. For $170,000.

On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 1:58:57 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 23:36:43 +0300, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 08:33:39 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
> ><gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 1:38:16 AM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
> >>> They have NO CLUE what will be required of the electrical grid to support the quantity of EVs envisioned by these idiots. How much increase in grid capacity do YOU think will be required? Post your answers below.
> >>
> >>When all cars are BEVs, it will result in a 20% increase in total electrical generation from today's levels.
> >>
> >>More than 95% of BEV charging is done at night, during the slack time of electrical demand. This 95+% will not require any additional generation or transmission capability. The remaining <5% of 20% or <1% of charging will be at peak time. So the existing grid will need to grow by 1% to accommodate charging that will happen at peak time.
> >
> >Depends on the electric production mix in a particular country.
> >
> >If you have plenty of nuclear power, charging by night (and weekends)
> >makes perfectly sense.
> >
> >However, if you have to use expensive peak power gas turbines during
> >the day, extending the high demand to the night would force to use
> >these expensive turbines into the night.
> >
> >With plenty of solar power, charging during the day is also viable.
> >
> >If you live in a sunny area and only drive short distances daily, you
> >could even live without external charging :-) :-)
> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightyear_One
> >That car has 5 m^2 solar panels of its own, so it would charge
> >batteries with a few hundred watts while driving on a sunny road or
> >when parked in a sunny car park.
> Really funny. If the solar panels add 40 miles per day of range, it
> would run about 5 MPH on solar power. In the summer. For $170,000.

The panel itself is only couple hundreds. I think i can put around 2 m^2 on my Leaf, for around $500 at 300W. It will add around 10 miles per day. Actually, i have to worry about overcharging, if I don't drive it for 4 or 5 days.

I have around 10kW solar panels in storage.

On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 2:09:59 PM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 1:58:57 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> > On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 23:36:43 +0300, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
> >
> > >On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 08:33:39 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
> > ><gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >>On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 1:38:16 AM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
> > >>> They have NO CLUE what will be required of the electrical grid to support the quantity of EVs envisioned by these idiots. How much increase in grid capacity do YOU think will be required? Post your answers below.
> > >>
> > >>When all cars are BEVs, it will result in a 20% increase in total electrical generation from today's levels.
> > >>
> > >>More than 95% of BEV charging is done at night, during the slack time of electrical demand. This 95+% will not require any additional generation or transmission capability. The remaining <5% of 20% or <1% of charging will be at peak time. So the existing grid will need to grow by 1% to accommodate charging that will happen at peak time.
> > >
> > >Depends on the electric production mix in a particular country.
> > >
> > >If you have plenty of nuclear power, charging by night (and weekends)
> > >makes perfectly sense.
> > >
> > >However, if you have to use expensive peak power gas turbines during
> > >the day, extending the high demand to the night would force to use
> > >these expensive turbines into the night.
> > >
> > >With plenty of solar power, charging during the day is also viable.
> > >
> > >If you live in a sunny area and only drive short distances daily, you
> > >could even live without external charging :-) :-)
> > >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightyear_One
> > >That car has 5 m^2 solar panels of its own, so it would charge
> > >batteries with a few hundred watts while driving on a sunny road or
> > >when parked in a sunny car park.
> > Really funny. If the solar panels add 40 miles per day of range, it
> > would run about 5 MPH on solar power. In the summer. For $170,000.
> The panel itself is only couple hundreds. I think i can put around 2 m^2 on my Leaf, for around $500 at 300W. It will add around 10 miles per day. Actually, i have to worry about overcharging, if I don't drive it for 4 or 5 days.
>
> I have around 10kW solar panels in storage.

By the way, you can get 30% solar ITC with 10% to 20% add-on with battery. So, your Uncle Sam will pay half of the cost.

On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 12:51:23 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 3:38:16 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
> > They have NO CLUE what will be required of the electrical grid to support the quantity of EVs envisioned by these idiots. How much increase in grid capacity do YOU think will be required? Post your answers below.
> Why bother? The answer is well known, and was posted here years ago - about 30%. An instant google search throws up this
>
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2021/11/13/electricity-grids-can-handle-electric-vehicles-easily--they-just-need-proper-management/?sh=e6e6bc578629
>
> Forbes has more recent estimates and it is a bit lower for the US and appreciably lower for the UK.
>
> So Flyguy is the same ignorant idiot that he has always been. He seems to feel this compulsion to advertise his rapidly advancing dementia, and waste bandwidth in the process. He doesn't need to bother. We've known that he is hopeless twit for quite a while now.
>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney

SNIPPERMAN's mind seems to be clouded by his own dementia, almost as much as Lyin' Biden's.

The point is that the electrical grid is strained to the max right now, with absolutely NO initiative by Lyin' Biden's administration to fix it. If anything, they are pulling fossil-fueled facilities offline. We are being warned - around the world - of this problem:
https://www.nerc.com/news/Headlines%20DL/May%2018%202022%20SRA%20Announcement.pdf
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/06/02/blackout-states-summer-heat/
Even SNIPPERMAN's beloved OZ is not immune:
https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/australia-power-market-halted-dramatic-move-avert-blackouts-2022-06-15/

The average home uses 11,000 kwh. If it added two EVs driven a total of 15,000 miles that would add another 5,200 kwh, for a total of 16,200 kwh. As there are 140 million homes in the US, that would add 730 BILLION kwh to the grid. As total demand is about 3.9 trillion kwh, this represents a 19% increase in unplanned for demand.

Given that we are at the breaking point now, and that there are no new generating facilities planned for other than undispatchable renewables, and aging plants are being shut down, we are headed for a crisis. Actually, we are ALREADY in a crisis.

Note: instantaneous charging capacity is a red herring, and the province of fools.

On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 5:55:41 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 1:38:16 AM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
> > They have NO CLUE what will be required of the electrical grid to support the quantity of EVs envisioned by these idiots. How much increase in grid capacity do YOU think will be required? Post your answers below.
> They have no clue? Really? Do you really think the U.S. government and industry are basically doing nothing that isn't publicized in the media for mentally defectives that you watch?
>
> DoE (Dept Energy for you) is on it. They formed and coordinated a Grid Integration Tech Team (GITT) and Integrated Systems Analysis Tech Team (ISATT) to tap into the best and most relevant knowledge about the subject. As you might expect, the teams have representatives of the electrical power generation industry as they just might have a smidge to do with the actual implementation, don't you think? Looks like the following participated:
> American Electric Power,
> Argonne National Laboratory, BP America, Chevron Corporation, DTE Energy, Duke Energy,
> the Electric Power Research Institute, ExxonMobil Corporation, FCA US LLC, Ford Motor
> Company, General Motors, the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, Oak Ridge National
> Laboratory, Idaho National Laboratory, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, Phillips 66
> Company, Shell Oil Products U.S., Southern California Edison Company, U.S.. Council for
> Automotive Research LLC, the U.S. Department of Energy.
> And each of these participants further tap into fairly vast resources specific to their area of expertise.
>
> You can read a summary of their work here:
> https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2019/12/f69/GITT%20ISATT%20EVs%20at%20Scale%20Grid%20Summary%20Report%20FINAL%20Nov2019.pdf
>
> We'll eagerly await your usual highly detailed and fact based analysis of their work. I'm sure it contains manifold laws you will relish exposing.

What that summary fails to say ANYTHING about are brownouts and blackouts (I searched for it), which is the crisis facing us RIGHT NOW! Adding more electrical loads are just going to make this crisis worse. This report is just another example where they decided on the conclusion and wrote a piece of shit to back it up.

On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 8:23:17 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 22:38:13 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
> <soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >They have NO CLUE what will be required of the electrical grid to support the quantity of EVs envisioned by these idiots. How much increase in grid capacity do YOU think will be required? Post your answers below.
> For your own calculations to get a ballpark value:
>
> How much do you drive with your car every year ?
>
> Divide that by 365 to get how much you drive each day on average.
> Divide that by 24 to get how far you drive each hour on average.
>
> If you have an EV, check out how far you can drive with 1 kWh.
>
> Divide the average hour distance with how far you get with 1 kWh. This
> will give the average charging power which is on for 24 hours each day
> for every days of the year. In most cases, the average charging power
> is well below 0.5 kW (500 W). This is the additional power drawn by
> your house.
>
> Compare those figures if an extra heater/cooler is added to your
> house. Does the network crash by that addition ?

You make things FAR TOO COMPLICATED! The average EV uses 0.346 kwh/mi. The average home drives 15,000 miles per year, for 5190 kwh. The average home, less EVs, consumes 11000 kwh, so switching to EVs will increase the average home's energy consumption by 47% (this may be low because it doesn't account for conversion inefficiencies, so it could be above 50%). So, FORGET about where they use their electricity - that just muddles the analysis.

On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 6:25:53 PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 8:23:17 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
> > On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 22:38:13 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
> > <soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >They have NO CLUE what will be required of the electrical grid to support the quantity of EVs envisioned by these idiots. How much increase in grid capacity do YOU think will be required? Post your answers below.
> > For your own calculations to get a ballpark value:
> >
> > How much do you drive with your car every year ?
> >
> > Divide that by 365 to get how much you drive each day on average.
> > Divide that by 24 to get how far you drive each hour on average.
> >
> > If you have an EV, check out how far you can drive with 1 kWh.
> >
> > Divide the average hour distance with how far you get with 1 kWh. This
> > will give the average charging power which is on for 24 hours each day
> > for every days of the year. In most cases, the average charging power
> > is well below 0.5 kW (500 W). This is the additional power drawn by
> > your house.
> >
> > Compare those figures if an extra heater/cooler is added to your
> > house. Does the network crash by that addition ?
> You make things FAR TOO COMPLICATED! The average EV uses 0.346 kwh/mi. The average home drives 15,000 miles per year, for 5190 kwh. The average home, less EVs, consumes 11000 kwh, so switching to EVs will increase the average home's energy consumption by 47% (this may be low because it doesn't account for conversion inefficiencies, so it could be above 50%). So, FORGET about where they use their electricity - that just muddles the analysis.

15,000 miles may be on the high side. I personally drove around 5,000 per year.

11000 kwh per yr -> 30 kwh per day -> 1200w per hour -> 10A average. Most house have 200A panel. Using only 5% seems too low.

On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 6:46:06 PM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 6:25:53 PM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 8:23:17 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
> > > On Fri, 29 Jul 2022 22:38:13 -0700 (PDT), Flyguy
> > > <soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > >They have NO CLUE what will be required of the electrical grid to support the quantity of EVs envisioned by these idiots. How much increase in grid capacity do YOU think will be required? Post your answers below.
> > > For your own calculations to get a ballpark value:
> > >
> > > How much do you drive with your car every year ?
> > >
> > > Divide that by 365 to get how much you drive each day on average.
> > > Divide that by 24 to get how far you drive each hour on average.
> > >
> > > If you have an EV, check out how far you can drive with 1 kWh.
> > >
> > > Divide the average hour distance with how far you get with 1 kWh. This
> > > will give the average charging power which is on for 24 hours each day
> > > for every days of the year. In most cases, the average charging power
> > > is well below 0.5 kW (500 W). This is the additional power drawn by
> > > your house.
> > >
> > > Compare those figures if an extra heater/cooler is added to your
> > > house. Does the network crash by that addition ?
> > You make things FAR TOO COMPLICATED! The average EV uses 0.346 kwh/mi. The average home drives 15,000 miles per year, for 5190 kwh. The average home, less EVs, consumes 11000 kwh, so switching to EVs will increase the average home's energy consumption by 47% (this may be low because it doesn't account for conversion inefficiencies, so it could be above 50%). So, FORGET about where they use their electricity - that just muddles the analysis.
> 15,000 miles may be on the high side. I personally drove around 5,000 per year.
>
> 11000 kwh per yr -> 30 kwh per day -> 1200w per hour -> 10A average. Most house have 200A panel. Using only 5% seems too low.

That data maybe low - if you search for "average household car mileage" you get miles driven per DRIVER, not household. Men drive more miles than women, so if you add the two together 15,000 is a reasonable, and certainly not high, number per household. Of course, some will drive more and some less. In any case, it gives an approximate number for doing the whole USA calculation.

On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 12:32:43 PM UTC-4, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 12:01:06 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 11:48:32 AM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> > > In article <a7c42310-3b41-45f9...@googlegroups.com>,
> > > gnuarm.del...@gmail.com says...
> > > >
> > > > When all cars are BEVs, it will result in a 20% increase in total electrical generation from today's levels.
> > > >
> > > > More than 95% of BEV charging is done at night, during the slack time of electrical demand. This 95+% will not require any additional generation or transmission capability. The remaining <5% of 20% or <1% of charging will be at peak time. So the existing grid will need to grow by 1% to accommodate charging that will happen at
> > > peak time.
> > > >
> > > > I think we can manage that.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > While the cars are recharged at night, where are all the solar
> > > generators going to get the sun light to power them ?
> > >
> > > Does the wind blow at night like it does in the daytime ? That I do not
> > > know.
> > Lol.
> >
> > If you want to use solar power to charge your car, then charge it during the day when the duck curve is low. No one is stopping you.
> Care to explain what throttling back the nuclear generator output has to do with anything?

Perhaps you can explain the context? I don't see where anyone has mentioned the nuclear reactors, at least in this subthread.

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 2:47:30 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> In article <669814fe-8865-4857...@googlegroups.com>,
> gnuarm.del...@gmail.com says...
> >
> > If you want to use solar power to charge your car, then charge it during the day when the duck curve is low. No one is stopping you.
> >
> > You *do* have a BEV, right?
> >
> >
> You just said charge at night when the demand is low, now you want to
> charge during the day when the demand is low. What is it demand low at
> night or day in your opinion ?

Perhaps you are not familiar with the fact that the electric demand curve has a peak around 6-8 pm. During the night, demand is much lower. During the day, demand is generally lower, but can be a lot lower, depending on the amount of solar generation there is. On sunny days in California (the state with the most BEVs) the demand curve drops significantly from solar generation, creating what is called a "duck" curve.

Look it up. You can probably learn a lot if you try reading about it.

> I doubt I would ever have a BEV. Not paying thousands more for a car
> over a gas one .

I think that is a wise idea for you. You probably would not be able to adapt to a change in paradigm. By the time electric cars have pushed out the ICE in 20 years, you will be long dead. Essentially, nothing you do from this point on will make any difference to anyone. No one cares what you do.

> At my age (72) I may have already bought my last car, a 2017 and 2007
> truck with only 75,000 miles on it. The wife has a 2020 car with less
> than 5000 miles on it. For me, time is too short to worry about when and
> where to plug in and wait while there are plenty of gas stations.

Just don't live too long. In 10 to 15 years, you will find the number of gas stations to decline seriously. But then you probably won't still be driving, and possibly not much else either. Yeah, your life expectancy is only 13 more years. Enjoy it while you can. If your wife is the same age, she will likely get to see the gas stations mostly closed.

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 7:14:47 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 11:02:16 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 12:51:23 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 3:38:16 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > They have NO CLUE what will be required of the electrical grid to support the quantity of EVs envisioned by these idiots. How much increase in grid capacity do YOU think will be required? Post your answers below.
> > > Why bother? The answer is well known, and was posted here years ago - about 30%. An instant google search throws up this
> > >
> > > https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2021/11/13/electricity-grids-can-handle-electric-vehicles-easily--they-just-need-proper-management/?sh=e6e6bc578629
> > >
> > > Forbes has more recent estimates and it is a bit lower for the US and appreciably lower for the UK.
> > >
> > > So Flyguy is the same ignorant idiot that he has always been. He seems to feel this compulsion to advertise his rapidly advancing dementia, and waste bandwidth in the process. He doesn't need to bother. We've known that he is hopeless twit for quite a while now.
> >
> > Sloman's mind seems to be clouded by his own dementia, almost as much as Lyin' Biden's.
>
> Which is to say, not at all. Trump falsely claimed that Bidenm was suffering from dementia, and Flyguy is silly enough to believe him. Both Flyguy and Trump believe what it suits them to believe, and ignore inconvneient realities
> > The point is that the electrical grid is strained to the max right now, with absolutely NO initiative by Lyin' Biden's administration to fix it. If anything, they are pulling fossil-fueled facilities offline. We are being warned - around the world - of this problem:
> > https://www.nerc.com/news/Headlines%20DL/May%2018%202022%20SRA%20Announcement.pdf
> Global warming does put the US grid under strain - it wasn't designed to cope with the extra air-conditioning load that unexpectedl hot weather imposes.
>
> It's not hard to fix - solar cells generate power cheaply, during the day when the sun is shining and pushing up the demand for air-conditioning. They generate electricty more cheaply than any other power source, so the only problem is buying the solar cells and hooking them up to the grid (which takes time and costs money)
> >
> > https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/06/02/blackout-states-summer-heat/
> >
> > Even Sloman's beloved OZ is not immune:
> > https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/australia-power-market-halted-dramatic-move-avert-blackouts-2022-06-15/
>
> It wasn't global warming that created that problem - a bunch the old coal-fired power generating plants so beloved by the previous National-Liberal government (who got voted out in May for this and other incompetence) all broke down at the same time. Getting the expensive gas-fired generators all fired up at the same time cost money.
>
> The electricity generating utility companies are investing in new wind turbines and solar farms - and the grid scale batteries to fill in the gaps - because this is now the cheapest way of generating electricity, but this does take time and costs money. They do like shutting down old and unreliable coal-fired generating stations which produce expensive electricity when they are working, and buy coal from the mining interests who have the National-Liberal conservative party in their hip pocket - we don't ship all our coal to China (or at least not yet).
> > The average home uses 11,000 kwh. If it added two EVs driven a total of 15,000 miles that would add another 5,200 kwh, for a total of 16,200 kwh. As there are 140 million homes in the US, that would add 730 BILLION kwh to the grid. As total demand is about 3.9 trillion kwh, this represents a 19% increase in unplanned for demand.
> The US electricity generating capacity went up by 69 billion killowatt hours per year from 1950 to 2000 from about 400 billion in 1950 to about 3,800 billion in 2000
>
> https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/electricity-in-the-us-generation-capacity-and-sales.php
>
> It has levelled off since then, probably because industry has got more efficient, but adding another 730 billion kilowatt hours of capacity as the population moved to electric cars isn't going to be difficult, and the only way that this could be unplanned would be if the people running the utility generating companies were as stupid as you are.
>
> This is one market that can really exploit solar generation - you can charge you car while it is parked during the day (and cars spend 95% of their time parked), and of course parked cars could be exploited as grid scale batteries, not that electric car owners are all that enthusiastic about that idea at the moment (though they might get happier with it if paid enough to take part).
> > Given that we are at the breaking point now, and that there are no new generating facilities planned for other than undispatchable renewables, and aging plants are being shut down, we are headed for a crisis. Actually, we are ALREADY in a crisis.
> The utility companies haven't invested enough in grid scale batteries so far, but electric vehicle drivers may do it for them.
>
> Complaining about the way you run your grid - after you privatised it under Reagan, and did it inexpertly enough that ENRON ripped you off- is just evidence of your terminal incompetence. If you looked a the way other countries do it, you might be able to find a scheme worth copying. American exceptionalism does offer an excuse for not doing that, but that's just one more aspect of your terminal incompetence.
> > Note: instantaneous charging capacity is a red herring, and the province of fools.
> Instant charging is handy on long trips. It does depend on the charging station having an even bigger battery than your car, so it s going to be an expensive convenience, but there's nothing foolish about spending extra money to solve the occasional short term problem.
>
> --
> SNIPPERMAN, Sydney

SNIPPERMAN is living in LA-LA Land. No, solar cells ARE NOT going to bridge the gap in electrical power demand growth. SNIPPERMAN has a child-like faith in renewables that doesn't match reality. Renewables aren't growing fast enough to even meet the growth in energy demand. And Europe has discovered the folly of depending upon nondispatchable energy sources. This hit Europe HARD last winter:
https://time.com/6124191/winter-europe-energy/
The Woke crowd simply can't listen to reason. Like SNIPPERMAN they think that it will all just, somehow, work out.

On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 3:22:32 PM UTC-4, rbowman wrote:
> On 07/30/2022 09:48 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> > In article <a7c42310-3b41-45f9...@googlegroups.com>,
> > gnuarm.del...@gmail.com says...
> >>
> >> When all cars are BEVs, it will result in a 20% increase in total electrical generation from today's levels.
> >>
> >> More than 95% of BEV charging is done at night, during the slack time of electrical demand. This 95+% will not require any additional generation or transmission capability. The remaining <5% of 20% or <1% of charging will be at peak time. So the existing grid will need to grow by 1% to accommodate charging that will happen at
> > peak time.
> >>
> >> I think we can manage that.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > While the cars are recharged at night, where are all the solar
> > generators going to get the sun light to power them ?
> >
> > Does the wind blow at night like it does in the daytime ? That I do not
> > know.
> >
> In general, no. Excluding weather fronts thermal heating is responsible
> for a lot of air motion. This is particularly noticeable in the desert.
> The wind picks up when the sun rises and usually calms down after
> sunset. If you don't like sand in your hamburgers grill after dark.

Not sure where you get your data. The daily wind profile varies a lot depending on location.

This one shows a typical profile of lower wind during mid day.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/G-Ermolenko/publication/315613300/figure/fig7/AS:661215160320011@1534657387778/Daily-power-output-curves-unit-capacity-factor-by-3-MW-wind-turbines-at-the-height-of.png

This one shows pretty constant wind speeds over the ocean.

https://www.kyos.com/ppa-insight-on-solar-radiation-and-wind-speed-data/

Of course, all of these are at an altitude that suits windmills and is different from the surface speeds.

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 9:51:46 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 2:47:30 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> > In article <669814fe-8865-4857...@googlegroups.com>,
> > gnuarm.del...@gmail.com says...
> > >
> > > If you want to use solar power to charge your car, then charge it during the day when the duck curve is low. No one is stopping you.
> > >
> > > You *do* have a BEV, right?
> > >
> > >
> > You just said charge at night when the demand is low, now you want to
> > charge during the day when the demand is low. What is it demand low at
> > night or day in your opinion ?
> Perhaps you are not familiar with the fact that the electric demand curve has a peak around 6-8 pm. During the night, demand is much lower. During the day, demand is generally lower, but can be a lot lower, depending on the amount of solar generation there is. On sunny days in California (the state with the most BEVs) the demand curve drops significantly from solar generation, creating what is called a "duck" curve.
>
> Look it up. You can probably learn a lot if you try reading about it.
> > I doubt I would ever have a BEV. Not paying thousands more for a car
> > over a gas one .
> I think that is a wise idea for you. You probably would not be able to adapt to a change in paradigm. By the time electric cars have pushed out the ICE in 20 years, you will be long dead. Essentially, nothing you do from this point on will make any difference to anyone. No one cares what you do.
> > At my age (72) I may have already bought my last car, a 2017 and 2007
> > truck with only 75,000 miles on it. The wife has a 2020 car with less
> > than 5000 miles on it. For me, time is too short to worry about when and
> > where to plug in and wait while there are plenty of gas stations.
> Just don't live too long. In 10 to 15 years, you will find the number of gas stations to decline seriously. But then you probably won't still be driving, and possibly not much else either. Yeah, your life expectancy is only 13 more years. Enjoy it while you can. If your wife is the same age, she will likely get to see the gas stations mostly closed.
>
> --
>
> Rick C.
>
> --- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
> --- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

I think that it is you that better worry: the number of EV charging stations is not going to keep up with the growth of EVs. And pity the poor dolt that lives in an apartment and must depend upon public charging stations that will be over-whelmed with like citizens. Same thing goes when you are on the road and are forced to wait in line for hours to charge your EV while I spend 5 min to fill up at a gas station.

On 07/30/2022 01:53 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 12:39:19 PM UTC-7, Ralph Mowery wrote:
>> In article <jklenh...@mid.individual.net>, bow...@montana.com
>> says...
>>>
>>> In general, no. Excluding weather fronts thermal heating is responsible
>>> for a lot of air motion. This is particularly noticeable in the desert.
>>> The wind picks up when the sun rises and usually calms down after
>>> sunset. If you don't like sand in your hamburgers grill after dark.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I thought something like that but did not know for sure. My thinking
>> was that not too long after sunset there was no heat to make much wind
>> where the wind generators would be at.
>
> Perhaps to a lesser degree. But there is wind as long as the Earth is turning. We have rather windy nights near the ocean as well.
>

Throw in the ocean and you have a whole different set of conditions.

You need a physics 101 brush up too. The rotation brings the Coriolis
Effect into play, and controls the daily local heating but you're still
talking temperature gradients. When I was about 5 I thought the trees
caused wind by moving their branches but then I got a little better
grasp on reality. I also thought cows were female horses and cats were
female dogs and I got that straightened out. Sadly a lot of people
haven't gotten past gender confusion.

https://www.cactushugs.com/coachella-valley-winds-explained/

That's about San Gorgonio pass but a similar dynamic applies to Altamont
and Tehachapi. It's slightly different in desert areas with flatter
terrain because you're not getting the funnel effect.

On 07/30/2022 03:29 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 2:09:59 PM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
>> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 1:58:57 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>> On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 23:36:43 +0300, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 08:33:39 -0700 (PDT), Ricky
>>>> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 1:38:16 AM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
>>>>>> They have NO CLUE what will be required of the electrical grid to support the quantity of EVs envisioned by these idiots. How much increase in grid capacity do YOU think will be required? Post your answers below.
>>>>>
>>>>> When all cars are BEVs, it will result in a 20% increase in total electrical generation from today's levels.
>>>>>
>>>>> More than 95% of BEV charging is done at night, during the slack time of electrical demand. This 95+% will not require any additional generation or transmission capability. The remaining <5% of 20% or <1% of charging will be at peak time. So the existing grid will need to grow by 1% to accommodate charging that will happen at peak time.
>>>>
>>>> Depends on the electric production mix in a particular country.
>>>>
>>>> If you have plenty of nuclear power, charging by night (and weekends)
>>>> makes perfectly sense.
>>>>
>>>> However, if you have to use expensive peak power gas turbines during
>>>> the day, extending the high demand to the night would force to use
>>>> these expensive turbines into the night.
>>>>
>>>> With plenty of solar power, charging during the day is also viable.
>>>>
>>>> If you live in a sunny area and only drive short distances daily, you
>>>> could even live without external charging :-) :-)
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightyear_One
>>>> That car has 5 m^2 solar panels of its own, so it would charge
>>>> batteries with a few hundred watts while driving on a sunny road or
>>>> when parked in a sunny car park.
>>> Really funny. If the solar panels add 40 miles per day of range, it
>>> would run about 5 MPH on solar power. In the summer. For $170,000.
>> The panel itself is only couple hundreds. I think i can put around 2 m^2 on my Leaf, for around $500 at 300W. It will add around 10 miles per day. Actually, i have to worry about overcharging, if I don't drive it for 4 or 5 days.
>>
>> I have around 10kW solar panels in storage.
>
> By the way, you can get 30% solar ITC with 10% to 20% add-on with battery. So, your Uncle Sam will pay half of the cost.
>

No, I'll pay half the cost. Sam is a deadbeat and doesn't work for a
living unless you call the Mafia style collection racket work.

On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 09:32:40 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 12:01:06 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
>> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 11:48:32 AM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
>> > In article <a7c42310-3b41-45f9...@googlegroups.com>,
>> > gnuarm.del...@gmail.com says...
>> > >
>> > > When all cars are BEVs, it will result in a 20% increase in total electrical generation from today's levels.
>> > >
>> > > More than 95% of BEV charging is done at night, during the slack time of electrical demand. This 95+% will not require any additional generation or transmission capability. The remaining <5% of 20% or <1% of charging will be at peak time. So the existing grid will need to grow by 1% to accommodate charging that will happen at
>> > peak time.
>> > >
>> > > I think we can manage that.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > While the cars are recharged at night, where are all the solar
>> > generators going to get the sun light to power them ?
>> >
>> > Does the wind blow at night like it does in the daytime ? That I do not
>> > know.
>> Lol.
>>
>> If you want to use solar power to charge your car, then charge it during the day when the duck curve is low. No one is stopping you.
>
>Care to explain what throttling back the nuclear generator output has to do with anything?

In countries with lots of nuclear capacity (like France), they have to
throttle back some nuclear reactors during the weekends due to lower
consumption. Thus, in such countries, it makes sense to concentrate EV
charging to the weekends (and also ordinary nights).

On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 2:02:14 AM UTC-4, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 09:32:40 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
> <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 12:01:06 PM UTC-4, Ricky wrote:
> >> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 11:48:32 AM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
> >> > In article <a7c42310-3b41-45f9...@googlegroups.com>,
> >> > gnuarm.del...@gmail.com says...
> >> > >
> >> > > When all cars are BEVs, it will result in a 20% increase in total electrical generation from today's levels.
> >> > >
> >> > > More than 95% of BEV charging is done at night, during the slack time of electrical demand. This 95+% will not require any additional generation or transmission capability. The remaining <5% of 20% or <1% of charging will be at peak time. So the existing grid will need to grow by 1% to accommodate charging that will happen at
> >> > peak time.
> >> > >
> >> > > I think we can manage that.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > While the cars are recharged at night, where are all the solar
> >> > generators going to get the sun light to power them ?
> >> >
> >> > Does the wind blow at night like it does in the daytime ? That I do not
> >> > know.
> >> Lol.
> >>
> >> If you want to use solar power to charge your car, then charge it during the day when the duck curve is low. No one is stopping you.
> >
> >Care to explain what throttling back the nuclear generator output has to do with anything?
> In countries with lots of nuclear capacity (like France), they have to
> throttle back some nuclear reactors during the weekends due to lower
> consumption. Thus, in such countries, it makes sense to concentrate EV
> charging to the weekends (and also ordinary nights).

They actually do little to throttle back their nukes. They have smaller daily variations in demand load and manage that through 30% other generation sources.

--

Rick C.

-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 9:18:06 PM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
> On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 5:55:41 AM UTC-7, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 1:38:16 AM UTC-4, Flyguy wrote:
> > > They have NO CLUE what will be required of the electrical grid to support the quantity of EVs envisioned by these idiots. How much increase in grid capacity do YOU think will be required? Post your answers below.
> > They have no clue? Really? Do you really think the U.S. government and industry are basically doing nothing that isn't publicized in the media for mentally defectives that you watch?
> >
> > DoE (Dept Energy for you) is on it. They formed and coordinated a Grid Integration Tech Team (GITT) and Integrated Systems Analysis Tech Team (ISATT) to tap into the best and most relevant knowledge about the subject. As you might expect, the teams have representatives of the electrical power generation industry as they just might have a smidge to do with the actual implementation, don't you think? Looks like the following participated:
> > American Electric Power,
> > Argonne National Laboratory, BP America, Chevron Corporation, DTE Energy, Duke Energy,
> > the Electric Power Research Institute, ExxonMobil Corporation, FCA US LLC, Ford Motor
> > Company, General Motors, the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, Oak Ridge National
> > Laboratory, Idaho National Laboratory, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, Phillips 66
> > Company, Shell Oil Products U.S., Southern California Edison Company, U..S. Council for
> > Automotive Research LLC, the U.S. Department of Energy.
> > And each of these participants further tap into fairly vast resources specific to their area of expertise.
> >
> > You can read a summary of their work here:
> > https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2019/12/f69/GITT%20ISATT%20EVs%20at%20Scale%20Grid%20Summary%20Report%20FINAL%20Nov2019.pdf
> >
> > We'll eagerly await your usual highly detailed and fact based analysis of their work. I'm sure it contains manifold laws you will relish exposing.
>
> What that summary fails to say ANYTHING about are brownouts and blackouts (I searched for it), which is the crisis facing us RIGHT NOW! Adding more electrical loads are just going to make this crisis worse. This report is just another example where they decided on the conclusion and wrote a piece of shit to back it up.

The main power provider in Florida claims 99.98% reliability, which I take to mean availability- it's there when you want it. There are a bunch of causes totally outside the control of the power company that can make the power go down. The power provider then needs to switch distribution around to maintain system stability- avoid things like an overload that cascades into a massive blackout that takes a real long time to fix. You are right about observing the relation between more grid infrastructure and vulnerability to failures. That's just the laws of chance, and since everything is so interconnected, what is perceived as a small local failure turning into a seemingly system wide shortfall makes people think it's a capacity problem.
https://www.fpl.com/reliability/power-disturbances/flickers.html

Western U.S. and the central plains states, do have a capacity problem. They're still learning the ins and outs of reliably integrating renewables into their grids. NERC has major heartburn with the inverter technology used. It's going to take a awhile for them to get it right.

A major challenge in the U.S. is that, with the exception of a few government owned utilities like the TVA, government can't order private enterprise to build excess capacity and transmission infrastructure.

On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 1:12:38 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 3:00:31 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
> > On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 7:14:47 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 11:02:16 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 12:51:23 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 3:38:16 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
> > Sloman is living in LA-LA Land. No, solar cells ARE NOT going to bridge the gap in electrical power demand growth.
>
> One has to wonder why Flyguy thinks that.
>
> > Sloman has a child-like faith in renewables that doesn't match reality.
>
> Flyguy has no connection with any kind of reality.

No, that would be YOU, SNIPPERMAN. The reality is that Europe has already experienced a near-total electrical grid blackout because of the dependence on renewables. Adding significantly more loads will make this inevitable.

> > Renewables aren't growing fast enough to even meet the growth in energy demand.
> Renewables provided 826 billion kW.hrs in 2021 (in a total or 4.100 billion), up from 381 billion kW.hrs in 2008. Solar cells got a lot cheaper when China started producing cheap relatively high efficiency solar cells in tens time the volume that anybody had before
>
> https://www.nrel.gov/news/program/2021/documenting-a-decade-of-cost-declines-for-pv-systems.html

Investments simply are not being made to meet future electricity demands, and this is WITHOUT the added loads that Lyin' Biden and the rest of the Woke crowd want to throw into the mix. And the shortfall is not minor - it is HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS:
https://www.ebp-us.com/en/projects/failure-act-electric-infrastructure-investment-gaps-rapidly-changing-environment-2020

>
> Somebody needs to invest even more in making them in much higher volume - only about 1% of global electricity production comes from solar cells, and they are quite a bit cheaper than every other source, so there is a huge market out there.
> > And Europe has discovered the folly of depending upon nondispatchable energy sources.
> The folly is not investing in grid scale batteries when you start relaying on wind and solar for an appreciable part of your generation.
> This hit Europe HARD last winter:
> > https://time.com/6124191/winter-europe-energy/
> Read what you post. It's dated 28th November, 2021 1:16 PM EST before winter had actually hit. It was simple alarmism.

You might try READING the article as well as looking at the date. The lack of wind has already hit the UK, TWICE!
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/29/sse-says-low-wind-dry-conditions-hit-renewable-energy-generation.html
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/aug/27/uk-summer-wind-drought-puts-green-revolution-into-reverse

>
> > The Woke crowd simply can't listen to reason. Like Sloman they think that it will all just, somehow, work out.
>
> As if Flyguy could produce or comprehend a reasoned argument. He quotes an alarmist forecast from last November, and thinks that that reflects what actually happened.

Well, SNIPPERMAN, I am STILL waiting for you to make one. You have exactly the same plan for expanding electric generation and transmission as Lyin' Biden does - NONE AT ALL!
>
> Nobody is saying that it isn't going to take work to move the generation system to the point where it can rely on mainly renewable sources, and they've got to be capable of supplying a a higher peak current, and storing a lot of it for a day or two, in a way the current system can't manage.

As I pointed out, there is a huge shortfall in the investment required to make this happen. Plus, the Woke crowd is throwing all sorts of permitting roadblocks in the way.
>
> It helps that renewable electricity is quite a bit cheaper than power from any other sources - though Flyguy doesn't seem to have noticed this, even if the Australian generating industry won't invest in any other generating capacity because its too expensive - but it is going to take time.
>
> Flyguy can't learn anything new and doesn't think than anybody else can do any better. He's clearly not "woke" and doesn't seem to have been awake for years now.

I can "learn" that there ARE NO plans in place to make this happen. If you know of any then CITE THEM.

>
> There's no claim that it "will all just somehow work out". There is a claim that if we spend quite a lot of money on the right hardware, it will actually work out, but Flyguy is much too dim to have any clue about how much money or what kind of hardware.

Sorry, SNIPPERMAN, but I cited a reference above (unlike you) that makes this very clear.

>
> He also thinks that a transition to electric vehicles will overload the electricity generating system, even though he couldn't look up the predictions of how much it would load the generating system, nor notice that the extra load for the US would be about ten years worth of the annual growth from 1950 to 2000, while electric cars are gong to take more than ten years to entirely take over the car market.

Hey SNIPPERMAN, I already did that calculation (again, unlike you). And our system is ALREADY overloaded without ANY new loads:
"Ahead of summer 2022, federal officials have released several warnings about anticipated reliability risks and higher electricity prices compared to 2021."
https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IN/IN11943

"Midcontinent ISO (MISO) faces a capacity shortfall in its North and Central areas, resulting
in high risk of energy emergencies during peak summer conditions"
"Extreme drought across much of Texas can produce weather conditions that are
favorable to prolonged, wide-area heat events and extreme peak electricity
demand."
https://www.nerc.com/pa/RAPA/ra/Reliability%20Assessments%20DL/NERC_SRA_2022.pdf

And the USA and Europe aren't the only ones:
https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/australians-urged-save-electricity-ease-power-crunch-2022-06-16/

On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 10:02:02 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Monday, August 1, 2022 at 12:41:11 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
> > On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 1:12:38 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 3:00:31 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 7:14:47 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 11:02:16 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 12:51:23 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > > > On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 3:38:16 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > Sloman is living in LA-LA Land. No, solar cells ARE NOT going to bridge the gap in electrical power demand growth.
> > >
> > > One has to wonder why Flyguy thinks that.
> > >
> > > > Sloman has a child-like faith in renewables that doesn't match reality.
> > >
> > > Flyguy has no connection with any kind of reality.
> > No, that would be you Sloman.
>
> Gnatguy does love his delusions.
> > The reality is that Europe has already experienced a near-total electrical grid blackout because of the dependence on renewables.
> You posted an alarmist link claiming that it might. When I was there in the UK and the Netherlands - in May and June this year, nobody was complaining that it had.
> You are just as full of shit as ever.
> > Adding significantly more loads will make this inevitable.
> Rubbish.
> > > > Renewables aren't growing fast enough to even meet the growth in energy demand.
> You've got to spend money to install the capacity you are going to need. Renewable energy supply doesn't grow at any kind of arbitrary rate that's easy to predict - it grows because people invest in installing more solar farms and wind turbines. More money means more power, and you aren't stuck with installing it in huge chunks - you can build up the capacity in lots of little increments, which is exactly what is happening.
> > > Renewables provided 826 billion kW.hrs in 2021 (in a total or 4.100 billion), up from 381 billion kW.hrs in 2008. Solar cells got a lot cheaper when China started producing cheap relatively high efficiency solar cells in tens time the volume that anybody had before
> > >
> > > https://www.nrel.gov/news/program/2021/documenting-a-decade-of-cost-declines-for-pv-systems.html
> >
> > Investments simply are not being made to meet future electricity demands, and this is WITHOUT the added loads that Lyin' Biden and the rest of the Woke crowd want to throw into the mix. And the shortfall is not minor - it is HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS:
> > https://www.ebp-us.com/en/projects/failure-act-electric-infrastructure-investment-gaps-rapidly-changing-environment-2020
> They aren't being made as fast as the people who sell the infra-structure would like - they'd like the government to give them even more money to spend, and they aren't likely to say that their industry is making more money than they'd like.
> > > Somebody needs to invest even more in making them in much higher volume - only about 1% of global electricity production comes from solar cells, and they are quite a bit cheaper than every other source, so there is a huge market out there.
> > >
> > > > And Europe has discovered the folly of depending upon nondispatchable energy sources.
> > > The folly is not investing in grid scale batteries when you start relaying on wind and solar for an appreciable part of your generation.
> > > This hit Europe HARD last winter:
> > > > https://time.com/6124191/winter-europe-energy/
> > > Read what you post. It's dated 28th November, 2021 1:16 PM EST before winter had actually hit. It was simple alarmism.
> >
> > You might try READING the article as well as looking at the date. The lack of wind has already hit the UK, TWICE!
> > https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/29/sse-says-low-wind-dry-conditions-hit-renewable-energy-generation.html
> > https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/aug/27/uk-summer-wind-drought-puts-green-revolution-into-reverse
> It happens, but not very often. It's not an an excuse to give up on renewable energy, which is remarkably cheap when the wind is blowing ant the sun is shining.

CONGRATULATIONS! You finally ADMIT that energy crises ARE happening!! And they will happen more frequently as we continue to put loads onto the electrical grid at a faster rate than we are adding generation and transmission capacity.

> > > > The Woke crowd simply can't listen to reason. Like Sloman they think that it will all just, somehow, work out.
> > >
> > > As if Flyguy could produce or comprehend a reasoned argument. He quotes an alarmist forecast from last November, and thinks that that reflects what actually happened.
> >
> > Well, Sloman, I am STILL waiting for you to make one.
>
> Which is to say you imagine that you could process it or even recognise it as reasonable if you ran into it.

Lame excuse for not presenting one. The truth is that you DON'T have a plan..

> > You have exactly the same plan for expanding electric generation and transmission as Lyin' Biden does - NONE AT ALL!
> Since your capacity to understand any such plan is absolutely zero, it's no surprise that you can't recognise the plans that do exist.

So WHY don't you present one? You can't is the answer.

> > > Nobody is saying that it isn't going to take work to move the generation system to the point where it can rely on mainly renewable sources, and they've got to be capable of supplying a a higher peak current, and storing a lot of it for a day or two, in a way the current system can't manage.
> >
> > As I pointed out, there is a huge shortfall in the investment required to make this happen. Plus, the Woke crowd is throwing all sorts of permitting roadblocks in the way.
> You didn't. You posted a link to a report from an industry group that makes money out of this kind of investment and would like to see even more of it.

False equivalency. By this logic, ANY professional group's opinion will be rejected by you.

> > > It helps that renewable electricity is quite a bit cheaper than power from any other sources - though Flyguy doesn't seem to have noticed this, even if the Australian generating industry won't invest in any other generating capacity because its too expensive - but it is going to take time.
> > >
> > > Flyguy can't learn anything new and doesn't think than anybody else can do any better. He's clearly not "woke" and doesn't seem to have been awake for years now.
> >
> > I can "learn" that there ARE NO plans in place to make this happen. If you know of any then CITE THEM.
> Why bother? You wouldn't be able to make sense of them if I did.
> > > There's no claim that it "will all just somehow work out". There is a claim that if we spend quite a lot of money on the right hardware, it will actually work out, but Flyguy is much too dim to have any clue about how much money or what kind of hardware.
> >
> > Sorry, Sloman, but I cited a reference above (unlike you) that makes this very clear.
>
> Gnatguy can always read any document as supporting his preferred point of view. He can't understand what they actually say, but he can always misunderstand them in a way that he finds comforting.

More of SNIPPERMAN's demented ramblings that make no sense whatsoever.

> > > He also thinks that a transition to electric vehicles will overload the electricity generating system, even though he couldn't look up the predictions of how much it would load the generating system, nor notice that the extra load for the US would be about ten years worth of the annual growth from 1950 to 2000, while electric cars are gong to take more than ten years to entirely take over the car market.
> >
> > Hey Sloman, I already did that calculation (again, unlike you).
>
> So why were you asking us to do it for you?

To get you to commit to an actual calculation, which you DID NOT DO! If you did do it, you would see the extent of the problem facing us. And you can't hardly deny your OWN NUMBERS, and you don't find ANY fault with mine!!

> > And our system is ALREADY overloaded without ANY new loads:
> > "Ahead of summer 2022, federal officials have released several warnings about anticipated reliability risks and higher electricity prices compared to 2021."
> > https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IN/IN11943
> >
> > "Midcontinent ISO (MISO) faces a capacity shortfall in its North and Central areas, resulting
> > in high risk of energy emergencies during peak summer conditions"
> > "Extreme drought across much of Texas can produce weather conditions that are
> > favorable to prolonged, wide-area heat events and extreme peak electricity
> > demand."
> > https://www.nerc.com/pa/RAPA/ra/Reliability%20Assessments%20DL/NERC_SRA_2022.pdf
> And nobody wants to spend extra money on installing a bit more generating capacity than they won't be able to keep on exploiting 100% of the time.

On Monday, August 1, 2022 at 11:28:48 AM UTC-7, Flyguy wrote:
> On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 10:02:02 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:

> > And nobody wants to spend extra money on installing a bit more generating capacity than they won't be able to keep on exploiting 100% of the time.
> Which is what you HAVE to do with renewables due to their unreliability. People WILL NOT tolerate an unreliable power supply, even YOU!

Huh? Our ancestors were hunter-gatherers, omnivores, who relied on... dozens of unreliable food
sources. A statistical near-certainty of sufficency is all we humans will ever get, so learn to
live with it. Everyone does.

On Monday, August 1, 2022 at 7:23:17 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 2, 2022 at 4:28:48 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
> > On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 10:02:02 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > On Monday, August 1, 2022 at 12:41:11 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 1:12:38 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 3:00:31 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 7:14:47 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > > > On Sunday, July 31, 2022 at 11:02:16 AM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 12:51:23 AM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Saturday, July 30, 2022 at 3:38:16 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
> > > > > > Sloman is living in LA-LA Land. No, solar cells ARE NOT going to bridge the gap in electrical power demand growth.
> > > > >
> > > > > One has to wonder why Flyguy thinks that.
> > > > >
> > > > > > Sloman has a child-like faith in renewables that doesn't match reality.
> > > > >
> > > > > Flyguy has no connection with any kind of reality.
> > > >
> > > > No, that would be you Sloman.
> > >
> > > Gnatguy does love his delusions.
> > >
> > > > The reality is that Europe has already experienced a near-total electrical grid blackout because of the dependence on renewables.
> > >
> > > You posted an alarmist link claiming that it might. When I was there in the UK and the Netherlands - in May and June this year, nobody was complaining that it had.
> > > You are just as full of shit as ever.
> > >
> > > > Adding significantly more loads will make this inevitable.
> > >
> > > Rubbish.
> > >
> > > > > > Renewables aren't growing fast enough to even meet the growth in energy demand.
> > >
> > > You've got to spend money to install the capacity you are going to need. Renewable energy supply doesn't grow at any kind of arbitrary rate that's easy to predict - it grows because people invest in installing more solar farms and wind turbines. More money means more power, and you aren't stuck with installing it in huge chunks - you can build up the capacity in lots of little increments, which is exactly what is happening.
> > >
> > > > > Renewables provided 826 billion kW.hrs in 2021 (in a total or 4.100 billion), up from 381 billion kW.hrs in 2008. Solar cells got a lot cheaper when China started producing cheap relatively high efficiency solar cells in tens time the volume that anybody had before
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.nrel.gov/news/program/2021/documenting-a-decade-of-cost-declines-for-pv-systems.html
> > > >
> > > > Investments simply are not being made to meet future electricity demands, and this is WITHOUT the added loads that Lyin' Biden and the rest of the Woke crowd want to throw into the mix. And the shortfall is not minor - it is HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS:
> > > > https://www.ebp-us.com/en/projects/failure-act-electric-infrastructure-investment-gaps-rapidly-changing-environment-2020
> > >
> > > They aren't being made as fast as the people who sell the infra-structure would like - they'd like the government to give them even more money to spend, and they aren't likely to say that their industry is making more money than they'd like.
> > >
> > > > > Somebody needs to invest even more in making them in much higher volume - only about 1% of global electricity production comes from solar cells, and they are quite a bit cheaper than every other source, so there is a huge market out there.
> > > > >
> > > > > > And Europe has discovered the folly of depending upon nondispatchable energy sources.
> > > > >
> > > > > The folly is not investing in grid scale batteries when you start relaying on wind and solar for an appreciable part of your generation.
> > > > > This hit Europe HARD last winter:
> > > > > > https://time.com/6124191/winter-europe-energy/
> > > > > Read what you post. It's dated 28th November, 2021 1:16 PM EST before winter had actually hit. It was simple alarmism.
> > > >
> > > > You might try READING the article as well as looking at the date. The lack of wind has already hit the UK, TWICE!
> > > > https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/29/sse-says-low-wind-dry-conditions-hit-renewable-energy-generation.html
> > > > https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/aug/27/uk-summer-wind-drought-puts-green-revolution-into-reverse
> > >
> > > It happens, but not very often. It's not an an excuse to give up on renewable energy, which is remarkably cheap when the wind is blowing ant the sun is shining.
> > >
> > CONGRATULATIONS! You finally ADMIT that energy crises ARE happening!!
> It wasn't any kind of "energy crisis". It was just a brief and predictable occasional local shortfall in supply. Europe has transnational high-voltage links to shoip power from areas that still have power to areas that have that kind short term problem. It takes an idiot like you to promote it in a "crisis".
> > And they will happen more frequently as we continue to put loads onto the electrical grid at a faster rate than we are adding generation and transmission capacity.
> Happily, the people who plan the expansion of the grid pay attention to the way the market can be expected to expand. Clowns like you may apply for that kind of job, but they don't get hired to do it. The US grid supplied some 800 billion kilowatt hours in 950 and was supplying some 4,000 billion in 2000, when industry started getting more efficient, so the market stopped expanding - at least for a while. The switch from gasoline-power top electric cars will call for another 1200 billion kilowatt hours of capacity over the next decade or so, and there will be entrepreneurs out there investing in being able to supply it (probably from solar farms).

Our government is ALREADY warning of wide-spread blackouts because of this issue, but dullards such as yourself are ignoring them - until YOU are impacted.

>
> And there will be clowns like you telling us that it couldn't possible happen, while your pension fund will be investing in making it happenm
> > > > > > The Woke crowd simply can't listen to reason. Like Sloman they think that it will all just, somehow, work out.
> > > > >
> > > > > As if Flyguy could produce or comprehend a reasoned argument. He quotes an alarmist forecast from last November, and thinks that that reflects what actually happened.
> > > >
> > > > Well, Sloman, I am STILL waiting for you to make one.
> > >
> > > Which is to say you imagine that you could process it or even recognise it as reasonable if you ran into it.
> >
> > Lame excuse for not presenting one. The truth is that you DON'T have a plan.
> Of course I don't. I invest in companies that do - they do exist. Your pension fund will too, even if you haven't got a clue about it.
> > > > You have exactly the same plan for expanding electric generation and transmission as Lyin' Biden does - NONE AT ALL!
> > >
> > > Since your capacity to understand any such plan is absolutely zero, it's no surprise that you can't recognise the plans that do exist.
> >
> > So WHY don't you present one? You can't is the answer.
> If I had billions to invest, I would. As it is, I invest in companies that do. You want to a prospectus? Search the web yourself.
> > > > > Nobody is saying that it isn't going to take work to move the generation system to the point where it can rely on mainly renewable sources, and they've got to be capable of supplying a a higher peak current, and storing a lot of it for a day or two, in a way the current system can't manage..
> > > >
> > > > As I pointed out, there is a huge shortfall in the investment required to make this happen. Plus, the Woke crowd is throwing all sorts of permitting roadblocks in the way.
> > >
> > > You didn't. You posted a link to a report from an industry group that makes money out of this kind of investment and would like to see even more of it.
> >
> > False equivalency. By this logic, ANY professional group's opinion will be rejected by you.
> They weren't actually talking a bout any "huge shortfall" - they'd just like to see more inverstment. As usual you were misrepresenting what they said to fit with you bizarre delusions.
> > > > > It helps that renewable electricity is quite a bit cheaper than power from any other sources - though Flyguy doesn't seem to have noticed this, even if the Australian generating industry won't invest in any other generating capacity because its too expensive - but it is going to take time.
> > > > >
> > > > > Flyguy can't learn anything new and doesn't think than anybody else can do any better. He's clearly not "woke" and doesn't seem to have been awake for years now.
> > > >
> > > > I can "learn" that there ARE NO plans in place to make this happen. If you know of any then CITE THEM.
> Of course you can "learn" this. You can't understand the plans that do exist, and it would be a complete waste of time to provide links to site that you couldn't comprehend, and would write off for some bogus reason or other.