https://nypost.com/2024/03/27/us-news/atlanta-man-alex-benigno-uses-bike-with-giant-magnet-to-remove-410-pounds-of-screws-nails-sharp-metal-off-streets/
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/27/2024 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> https://nypost.com/2024/03/27/us-news/atlanta-man-alex-benigno-uses-bike-with-giant-magnet-to-remove-410-pounds-of-screws-nails-sharp-metal-off-streets/

That illustrates that street sweeping isn't the cure that some people
claim.

And related, I wonder what percentage of his bike mileage is within bike
lanes?

As I've said, IME bike lanes retain debris far, far longer than normal
traffic lanes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 11:16:32 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/27/2024 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> https://nypost.com/2024/03/27/us-news/atlanta-man-alex-benigno-uses-bike-with-giant-magnet-to-remove-410-pounds-of-screws-nails-sharp-metal-off-streets/
>
>That illustrates that street sweeping isn't the cure that some people
>claim.
>
>And related, I wonder what percentage of his bike mileage is within bike
>lanes?
>
>As I've said, IME bike lanes retain debris far, far longer than normal
>traffic lanes.

I've never picked up a nail or any other metalic debri on the bike
trails except when crossing a street or road.

On 3/27/2024 10:38 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 11:16:32 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/27/2024 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> https://nypost.com/2024/03/27/us-news/atlanta-man-alex-benigno-uses-bike-with-giant-magnet-to-remove-410-pounds-of-screws-nails-sharp-metal-off-streets/
>>
>> That illustrates that street sweeping isn't the cure that some people
>> claim.
>>
>> And related, I wonder what percentage of his bike mileage is within bike
>> lanes?
>>
>> As I've said, IME bike lanes retain debris far, far longer than normal
>> traffic lanes.
>
> I've never picked up a nail or any other metalic debri on the bike
> trails except when crossing a street or road.

Which is a difference between a painted street or road lane
and a dedicated non-MV path.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 10:44:22 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 3/27/2024 10:38 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 11:16:32 -0400, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/27/2024 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> https://nypost.com/2024/03/27/us-news/atlanta-man-alex-benigno-uses-bike-with-giant-magnet-to-remove-410-pounds-of-screws-nails-sharp-metal-off-streets/
>>>
>>> That illustrates that street sweeping isn't the cure that some people
>>> claim.
>>>
>>> And related, I wonder what percentage of his bike mileage is within bike
>>> lanes?
>>>
>>> As I've said, IME bike lanes retain debris far, far longer than normal
>>> traffic lanes.
>>
>> I've never picked up a nail or any other metalic debri on the bike
>> trails except when crossing a street or road.
>
>Which is a difference between a painted street or road lane
>and a dedicated non-MV path.

Yes, and that's only one reason I usually ride on dedicated non-MV
paths. Two wheelers only have to thread their way through one
non-debri path, I have to do it with three.

On 3/27/2024 11:16 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/27/2024 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> https://nypost.com/2024/03/27/us-news/atlanta-man-alex-benigno-uses-bike-with-giant-magnet-to-remove-410-pounds-of-screws-nails-sharp-metal-off-streets/
>
> That illustrates that street sweeping isn't the cure that some people
> claim.
>
> And related, I wonder what percentage of his bike mileage is within bike
> lanes?
>
> As I've said, IME bike lanes retain debris far, far longer than normal
> traffic lanes.
>

I don't know that I've ever heard anyone claim street sweeping is a cure
for anything. Certainly diligent and frequent use is quite helpful, but
"cure"?

I remember finding a really nice almost new 8" Vice-Grip brand locking
pliers on the side of the road once (I still have it). A former teammate
of mine once rode home with a waffle iron balanced on his handlebar that
he found on the side of the road. He claimed it worked.

I don't think a street sweeper would have been very effective on either
of those.

--
Add xx to reply

On 3/27/2024 2:33 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 3/27/2024 11:16 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/27/2024 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> https://nypost.com/2024/03/27/us-news/atlanta-man-alex-benigno-uses-bike-with-giant-magnet-to-remove-410-pounds-of-screws-nails-sharp-metal-off-streets/
>>
>> That illustrates that street sweeping isn't the cure that some people
>> claim.
>>
>> And related, I wonder what percentage of his bike mileage is within
>> bike lanes?
>>
>> As I've said, IME bike lanes retain debris far, far longer than normal
>> traffic lanes.
>>
>
> I don't know that I've ever heard anyone claim street sweeping is a cure
> for anything. Certainly diligent and frequent use is quite helpful, but
> "cure"?

As I recall, Roger was claiming that London had frequent sweeping of
bike lanes that prevented accumulation of debris. He seemed surprised
that our bike lanes have debris, and that our roads are swept just twice
per year.

>
> I remember finding a really nice almost new 8" Vice-Grip brand locking
> pliers on the side of the road once (I still have it). A former teammate
> of mine once rode home with a waffle iron balanced on his handlebar that
> he found on the side of the road. He claimed it worked.
>
> I don't think a street sweeper would have been very effective on either
> of those.

I've got a pretty large collection of tools I've found while riding. The
best was a complete set of sockets with ratchet handle and case,
sprinkled all over the road. My worst miss was an $80 Leatherman that I
rode past but my touring buddy behind me nabbed.

I don't expect street sweeping to suck those tools up. They occur rarely
enough that they're not a problem. Gravel, broken glass and other odd
trash is more of a problem.

BTW, back when we were discussing this I took a couple photos of the
newest bike lanes in our area. I mentioned that after just a week, they
were filled with debris. They still are. Here are links to a couple shots:

https://flic.kr/p/2pFTMe3
https://flic.kr/p/2pFSwnV

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 3/27/2024 2:33 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>> On 3/27/2024 11:16 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 3/27/2024 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> https://nypost.com/2024/03/27/us-news/atlanta-man-alex-benigno-uses-bike-with-giant-magnet-to-remove-410-pounds-of-screws-nails-sharp-metal-off-streets/
>>>
>>> That illustrates that street sweeping isn't the cure that some people
>>> claim.
>>>
>>> And related, I wonder what percentage of his bike mileage is within
>>> bike lanes?
>>>
>>> As I've said, IME bike lanes retain debris far, far longer than normal
>>> traffic lanes.
>>>
>>
>> I don't know that I've ever heard anyone claim street sweeping is a cure
>> for anything. Certainly diligent and frequent use is quite helpful, but
>> "cure"?
>
> As I recall, Roger was claiming that London had frequent sweeping of
> bike lanes that prevented accumulation of debris. He seemed surprised
> that our bike lanes have debris, and that our roads are swept just twice
> per year.
>
No I said road sweeping than just bike lanes which are swept along with
road sweeper or by man cart with a few dedicated bike lane sweepers though
in a self selecting way bike infrastructure that needs a cart or bike lane
sweeper is sufficiently far enough away from motorised traffic which is the
cause of most of the debris, so will need less cleaning.

My old cycleway remains clear of debris it’s more vegetation that slowly
starts to narrow it.

And yes london certainly sweeps its road many more times than twice a year
even my forgotten cycleway gets a sweep every few months.

Clearly is a benefit to sweeping or places wouldn’t spend the effort money
in doing so. Can’t say even on the flyover (it’s the only short noticeable
debris area) which has a lot of debris that I notice metal shards but glass
and plastic plus sand from the construction traffic.

The North downs have flint shards and are quite gravely so bits of metal
>>
>> I remember finding a really nice almost new 8" Vice-Grip brand locking
>> pliers on the side of the road once (I still have it). A former teammate
>> of mine once rode home with a waffle iron balanced on his handlebar that
>> he found on the side of the road. He claimed it worked.
>>
>> I don't think a street sweeper would have been very effective on either
>> of those.
>
The van no but the man and a cart be fine or if very large dumped items the
council will collect.

> I've got a pretty large collection of tools I've found while riding. The
> best was a complete set of sockets with ratchet handle and case,
> sprinkled all over the road. My worst miss was an $80 Leatherman that I
> rode past but my touring buddy behind me nabbed.
>
> I don't expect street sweeping to suck those tools up. They occur rarely
> enough that they're not a problem. Gravel, broken glass and other odd
> trash is more of a problem.
>
> BTW, back when we were discussing this I took a couple photos of the
> newest bike lanes in our area. I mentioned that after just a week, they
> were filled with debris. They still are. Here are links to a couple shots:
>
> https://flic.kr/p/2pFTMe3
> https://flic.kr/p/2pFSwnV
>

Roger Merriman

On 3/27/2024 11:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/27/2024 2:33 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>> On 3/27/2024 11:16 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 3/27/2024 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> https://nypost.com/2024/03/27/us-news/atlanta-man-alex-benigno-uses-bike-with-giant-magnet-to-remove-410-pounds-of-screws-nails-sharp-metal-off-streets/
>>>
>>> That illustrates that street sweeping isn't the cure that some people
>>> claim.
>>>
>>> And related, I wonder what percentage of his bike mileage is within
>>> bike lanes?
>>>
>>> As I've said, IME bike lanes retain debris far, far longer than
>>> normal traffic lanes.
>>>
>>
>> I don't know that I've ever heard anyone claim street sweeping is a
>> cure for anything. Certainly diligent and frequent use is quite
>> helpful, but "cure"?
>
> As I recall, Roger was claiming that London had frequent sweeping of
> bike lanes that prevented accumulation of debris. He seemed surprised
> that our bike lanes have debris, and that our roads are swept just twice
> per year.
>
>>
>> I remember finding a really nice almost new 8" Vice-Grip brand locking
>> pliers on the side of the road once (I still have it). A former
>> teammate of mine once rode home with a waffle iron balanced on his
>> handlebar that he found on the side of the road. He claimed it worked.
>>
>> I don't think a street sweeper would have been very effective on
>> either of those.
>
> I've got a pretty large collection of tools I've found while riding. The
> best was a complete set of sockets with ratchet handle and case,
> sprinkled all over the road. My worst miss was an $80 Leatherman that I
> rode past but my touring buddy behind me nabbed.
>
> I don't expect street sweeping to suck those tools up. They occur rarely
> enough that they're not a problem. Gravel, broken glass and other odd
> trash is more of a problem.
>
> BTW, back when we were discussing this I took a couple photos of the
> newest bike lanes in our area. I mentioned that after just a week, they
> were filled with debris. They still are. Here are links to a couple shots:
>
> https://flic.kr/p/2pFTMe3
> https://flic.kr/p/2pFSwnV
>

Good lord....you call _that_ "filled with debris"?

--
Add xx to reply

Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/27/2024 11:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/27/2024 2:33 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>> On 3/27/2024 11:16 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 3/27/2024 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> https://nypost.com/2024/03/27/us-news/atlanta-man-alex-benigno-uses-bike-with-giant-magnet-to-remove-410-pounds-of-screws-nails-sharp-metal-off-streets/
>>>>
>>>> That illustrates that street sweeping isn't the cure that some people
>>>> claim.
>>>>
>>>> And related, I wonder what percentage of his bike mileage is within
>>>> bike lanes?
>>>>
>>>> As I've said, IME bike lanes retain debris far, far longer than
>>>> normal traffic lanes.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know that I've ever heard anyone claim street sweeping is a
>>> cure for anything. Certainly diligent and frequent use is quite
>>> helpful, but "cure"?
>>
>> As I recall, Roger was claiming that London had frequent sweeping of
>> bike lanes that prevented accumulation of debris. He seemed surprised
>> that our bike lanes have debris, and that our roads are swept just twice
>> per year.
>>
>>>
>>> I remember finding a really nice almost new 8" Vice-Grip brand locking
>>> pliers on the side of the road once (I still have it). A former
>>> teammate of mine once rode home with a waffle iron balanced on his
>>> handlebar that he found on the side of the road. He claimed it worked.
>>>
>>> I don't think a street sweeper would have been very effective on
>>> either of those.
>>
>> I've got a pretty large collection of tools I've found while riding. The
>> best was a complete set of sockets with ratchet handle and case,
>> sprinkled all over the road. My worst miss was an $80 Leatherman that I
>> rode past but my touring buddy behind me nabbed.
>>
>> I don't expect street sweeping to suck those tools up. They occur rarely
>> enough that they're not a problem. Gravel, broken glass and other odd
>> trash is more of a problem.
>>
>> BTW, back when we were discussing this I took a couple photos of the
>> newest bike lanes in our area. I mentioned that after just a week, they
>> were filled with debris. They still are. Here are links to a couple shots:
>>
>> https://flic.kr/p/2pFTMe3
>> https://flic.kr/p/2pFSwnV
>>
>
>
> Good lord....you call _that_ "filled with debris"?
>
>

Yeah that is fairly minor! One of the cycleways I use is under trees so
gets a lot of vegetation matter which even so isn’t a problem, get the odd
branches post storms but seems to get kicked to the side by the low cycle
traffic within a day or so.

I’m more bothered by the flooding in Hounslow Heath just before it and the
numerous potholes just after it, which have got to point while I will ride
though them (2in tyres) I’ll generally choose not to.

Roger Merriman

On 3/28/2024 7:31 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 3/27/2024 11:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/27/2024 2:33 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>> On 3/27/2024 11:16 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 3/27/2024 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> https://nypost.com/2024/03/27/us-news/atlanta-man-alex-benigno-uses-bike-with-giant-magnet-to-remove-410-pounds-of-screws-nails-sharp-metal-off-streets/
>>>>
>>>> That illustrates that street sweeping isn't the cure that some
>>>> people claim.
>>>>
>>>> And related, I wonder what percentage of his bike mileage is within
>>>> bike lanes?
>>>>
>>>> As I've said, IME bike lanes retain debris far, far longer than
>>>> normal traffic lanes.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know that I've ever heard anyone claim street sweeping is a
>>> cure for anything. Certainly diligent and frequent use is quite
>>> helpful, but "cure"?
>>
>> As I recall, Roger was claiming that London had frequent sweeping of
>> bike lanes that prevented accumulation of debris. He seemed surprised
>> that our bike lanes have debris, and that our roads are swept just
>> twice per year.
>>
>>>
>>> I remember finding a really nice almost new 8" Vice-Grip brand
>>> locking pliers on the side of the road once (I still have it). A
>>> former teammate of mine once rode home with a waffle iron balanced on
>>> his handlebar that he found on the side of the road. He claimed it
>>> worked.
>>>
>>> I don't think a street sweeper would have been very effective on
>>> either of those.
>>
>> I've got a pretty large collection of tools I've found while riding.
>> The best was a complete set of sockets with ratchet handle and case,
>> sprinkled all over the road. My worst miss was an $80 Leatherman that
>> I rode past but my touring buddy behind me nabbed.
>>
>> I don't expect street sweeping to suck those tools up. They occur
>> rarely enough that they're not a problem. Gravel, broken glass and
>> other odd trash is more of a problem.
>>
>> BTW, back when we were discussing this I took a couple photos of the
>> newest bike lanes in our area. I mentioned that after just a week,
>> they were filled with debris. They still are. Here are links to a
>> couple shots:
>>
>> https://flic.kr/p/2pFTMe3
>> https://flic.kr/p/2pFSwnV
>>
>
>
> Good lord....you call _that_ "filled with debris"?

Well, not "filled." But compared to the traffic lane beside it?

And I'll emphasize again, these lanes are now only about three months
old. The amount of gravel, mud and debris will steadily increase for
months. Once broken glass is part of the mix it will be very difficult
to spot.

I suppose some people prefer riding over such debris instead of sharing
smooth pavement with motorists. I prefer the clean pavement. How about you?

--
- Frank Krygowski

Am Thu, 28 Mar 2024 10:39:01 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
<roger@sarlet.com>:

>No I said road sweeping than just bike lanes which are swept along with
>road sweeper or by man cart with a few dedicated bike lane sweepers though
>in a self selecting way bike infrastructure that needs a cart or bike lane
>sweeper is sufficiently far enough away from motorised traffic which is the
>cause of most of the debris, so will need less cleaning.

Vegetation, trees, tree grates, grass verges, front gardens, fields,
garbage cans, etc. are sources of material that ends up in nearby areas
used exclusively by cyclists or pedestrians, where it then remains as
dirt and rots, slowly.

Motorized traffic does not cause much of that dirt, but it cleans the
surfaces by grinding dirt down into fine-grained particles cleared by
rain or by throwing it to the side, i.e. onto the cycle paths or
footpaths, where the dirt then remains.

As I have shown with pictures a few times already, the effect is easily
seen when watching how fast asphalted surfaces became dry where the
tires of cars, trucks and busses roll, but stays wet on the less touched
surfaces for much longer. That cleaning effect is less visible and less
obvious with dirt, but essentially similar.

>
>My old cycleway remains clear of debris it’s more vegetation that slowly
>starts to narrow it.

<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/fahrten/radwege/dreckwege/IMG-3548.jpeg>

That then newly built cycleway on my commute collected debris like a fly
trap. Thats an up a hill road outside buildup areas.

<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/fahrten/radwege/dreckwege/IMG-4054.jpeg>

From my commute, too, but this time in Bonn, almost at the center of the
city. There are many more such examples. For the most dangerous traps it
is quite difficult to take pictures, because they are essentially
invisible, because the dirt is tiny, transparent and/or is dark.

You've probably never ridden on the dirt of leaves that have been
shredded from car tires and thrown onto the bike path to rot and dry?
Weeks later, after a short rain shower? You don't notice it on the road,
which becomes clean and dry quickly, but on the cycle path it's almost
like soft soap, sometimes for days. Even worse, to the motorist it looks
as clean as "his" road, with the obvious consequences. "GET OFF THE ROAD
ON TO THE BIKEPATH, ASSHOLE!!"

>
>And yes london certainly sweeps its road many more times than twice a year
>even my forgotten cycleway gets a sweep every few months.

Great. The road in front of my house gets swept twice a week. Most cycle
paths im my region don't get swept at all. Do you earnestly believe that
a mandatory bicycle path like the one shown in this collage
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20230910/20230910_110041s3.jpg>
gets cleaned at all? FYI, that sign in the red circles is a warning
sign saying "ATTENTION! cycle path damage", sitting there for years,
both before and after the promised and completed refurbishment. Do you
really believe that the clean roads shown in the other pictures get
swept regularely? Some spots might, once a year, after the beet harvest.
Most don't.

--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions

On Fri, 29 Mar 2024 14:04:22 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
<news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:

>Am Thu, 28 Mar 2024 10:39:01 GMT schrieb Roger Merriman
><roger@sarlet.com>:
>
>
>>No I said road sweeping than just bike lanes which are swept along with
>>road sweeper or by man cart with a few dedicated bike lane sweepers though
>>in a self selecting way bike infrastructure that needs a cart or bike lane
>>sweeper is sufficiently far enough away from motorised traffic which is the
>>cause of most of the debris, so will need less cleaning.
>
>Vegetation, trees, tree grates, grass verges, front gardens, fields,
>garbage cans, etc. are sources of material that ends up in nearby areas
>used exclusively by cyclists or pedestrians, where it then remains as
>dirt and rots, slowly.
>
>Motorized traffic does not cause much of that dirt, but it cleans the
>surfaces by grinding dirt down into fine-grained particles cleared by
>rain or by throwing it to the side, i.e. onto the cycle paths or
>footpaths, where the dirt then remains.
>
>As I have shown with pictures a few times already, the effect is easily
>seen when watching how fast asphalted surfaces became dry where the
>tires of cars, trucks and busses roll, but stays wet on the less touched
>surfaces for much longer. That cleaning effect is less visible and less
>obvious with dirt, but essentially similar.
>
>>
>>My old cycleway remains clear of debris it’s more vegetation that slowly
>>starts to narrow it.
>
><https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/fahrten/radwege/dreckwege/IMG-3548.jpeg>
>
>
>That then newly built cycleway on my commute collected debris like a fly
>trap. Thats an up a hill road outside buildup areas.
>
><https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/radfahren/fahrten/radwege/dreckwege/IMG-4054.jpeg>
>
>From my commute, too, but this time in Bonn, almost at the center of the
>city. There are many more such examples. For the most dangerous traps it
>is quite difficult to take pictures, because they are essentially
>invisible, because the dirt is tiny, transparent and/or is dark.
>
>You've probably never ridden on the dirt of leaves that have been
>shredded from car tires and thrown onto the bike path to rot and dry?
>Weeks later, after a short rain shower? You don't notice it on the road,
>which becomes clean and dry quickly, but on the cycle path it's almost
>like soft soap, sometimes for days. Even worse, to the motorist it looks
>as clean as "his" road, with the obvious consequences. "GET OFF THE ROAD
>ON TO THE BIKEPATH, ASSHOLE!!"
>
>>
>>And yes london certainly sweeps its road many more times than twice a year
>>even my forgotten cycleway gets a sweep every few months.
>
>Great. The road in front of my house gets swept twice a week. Most cycle
>paths im my region don't get swept at all. Do you earnestly believe that
>a mandatory bicycle path like the one shown in this collage
><https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20230910/20230910_110041s3.jpg>
>gets cleaned at all? FYI, that sign in the red circles is a warning
>sign saying "ATTENTION! cycle path damage", sitting there for years,
>both before and after the promised and completed refurbishment. Do you
>really believe that the clean roads shown in the other pictures get
>swept regularely? Some spots might, once a year, after the beet harvest.
>Most don't.

I regularly see golf-cart-like vehicles pulling blowers on the bike
paths I ride. I saw one last Tuesday on the Withlacoochee state trail.
The bike paths around here seem to get better maintenance than the
streets and roads.

On 3/28/2024 11:23 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/28/2024 7:31 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>> On 3/27/2024 11:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 3/27/2024 2:33 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>> On 3/27/2024 11:16 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 3/27/2024 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> https://nypost.com/2024/03/27/us-news/atlanta-man-alex-benigno-uses-bike-with-giant-magnet-to-remove-410-pounds-of-screws-nails-sharp-metal-off-streets/
>>>>>
>>>>> That illustrates that street sweeping isn't the cure that some
>>>>> people claim.
>>>>>
>>>>> And related, I wonder what percentage of his bike mileage is within
>>>>> bike lanes?
>>>>>
>>>>> As I've said, IME bike lanes retain debris far, far longer than
>>>>> normal traffic lanes.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't know that I've ever heard anyone claim street sweeping is a
>>>> cure for anything. Certainly diligent and frequent use is quite
>>>> helpful, but "cure"?
>>>
>>> As I recall, Roger was claiming that London had frequent sweeping of
>>> bike lanes that prevented accumulation of debris. He seemed surprised
>>> that our bike lanes have debris, and that our roads are swept just
>>> twice per year.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I remember finding a really nice almost new 8" Vice-Grip brand
>>>> locking pliers on the side of the road once (I still have it). A
>>>> former teammate of mine once rode home with a waffle iron balanced
>>>> on his handlebar that he found on the side of the road. He claimed
>>>> it worked.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think a street sweeper would have been very effective on
>>>> either of those.
>>>
>>> I've got a pretty large collection of tools I've found while riding.
>>> The best was a complete set of sockets with ratchet handle and case,
>>> sprinkled all over the road. My worst miss was an $80 Leatherman that
>>> I rode past but my touring buddy behind me nabbed.
>>>
>>> I don't expect street sweeping to suck those tools up. They occur
>>> rarely enough that they're not a problem. Gravel, broken glass and
>>> other odd trash is more of a problem.
>>>
>>> BTW, back when we were discussing this I took a couple photos of the
>>> newest bike lanes in our area. I mentioned that after just a week,
>>> they were filled with debris. They still are. Here are links to a
>>> couple shots:
>>>
>>> https://flic.kr/p/2pFTMe3
>>> https://flic.kr/p/2pFSwnV
>>>
>>
>>
>> Good lord....you call _that_ "filled with debris"?
>
> Well, not "filled." But compared to the traffic lane beside it?
>
> And I'll emphasize again, these lanes are now only about three months
> old. The amount of gravel, mud and debris will steadily increase for
> months. Once broken glass is part of the mix it will be very difficult
> to spot.

how many times had the street sweeper gone over that section in those
three months?

In my area they streets are swept once a year (really, not kidding),
usually sometime in mid spring after the threat of any more snow has
become negligible, mostly to remove sand that has accumulated from the
snow storms.

In those sessions they go all the way to the curb including any bike lanes.

Are you aware of any cases where a street sweeper only sweeps the
traffic lane and _not_ a bike lane? I've never seen that.

Your picture is quite typical of what bike lanes around here look like
_most_ of the time.

>
> I suppose some people prefer riding over such debris instead of sharing
> smooth pavement with motorists. I prefer the clean pavement. How about you?
>

It depends. I wouldn't have any problem riding through something like
what appeared in your picture regardless of the traffic.

--
Add xx to reply

On 3/29/2024 10:41 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 3/28/2024 11:23 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/28/2024 7:31 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>> On 3/27/2024 11:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 3/27/2024 2:33 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>>> On 3/27/2024 11:16 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/27/2024 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> https://nypost.com/2024/03/27/us-news/atlanta-man-alex-benigno-uses-bike-with-giant-magnet-to-remove-410-pounds-of-screws-nails-sharp-metal-off-streets/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That illustrates that street sweeping isn't the cure that some
>>>>>> people claim.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And related, I wonder what percentage of his bike mileage is
>>>>>> within bike lanes?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I've said, IME bike lanes retain debris far, far longer than
>>>>>> normal traffic lanes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know that I've ever heard anyone claim street sweeping is a
>>>>> cure for anything. Certainly diligent and frequent use is quite
>>>>> helpful, but "cure"?
>>>>
>>>> As I recall, Roger was claiming that London had frequent sweeping of
>>>> bike lanes that prevented accumulation of debris. He seemed
>>>> surprised that our bike lanes have debris, and that our roads are
>>>> swept just twice per year.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I remember finding a really nice almost new 8" Vice-Grip brand
>>>>> locking pliers on the side of the road once (I still have it). A
>>>>> former teammate of mine once rode home with a waffle iron balanced
>>>>> on his handlebar that he found on the side of the road. He claimed
>>>>> it worked.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think a street sweeper would have been very effective on
>>>>> either of those.
>>>>
>>>> I've got a pretty large collection of tools I've found while riding.
>>>> The best was a complete set of sockets with ratchet handle and case,
>>>> sprinkled all over the road. My worst miss was an $80 Leatherman
>>>> that I rode past but my touring buddy behind me nabbed.
>>>>
>>>> I don't expect street sweeping to suck those tools up. They occur
>>>> rarely enough that they're not a problem. Gravel, broken glass and
>>>> other odd trash is more of a problem.
>>>>
>>>> BTW, back when we were discussing this I took a couple photos of the
>>>> newest bike lanes in our area. I mentioned that after just a week,
>>>> they were filled with debris. They still are. Here are links to a
>>>> couple shots:
>>>>
>>>> https://flic.kr/p/2pFTMe3
>>>> https://flic.kr/p/2pFSwnV
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Good lord....you call _that_ "filled with debris"?
>>
>> Well, not "filled." But compared to the traffic lane beside it?
>>
>> And I'll emphasize again, these lanes are now only about three months
>> old. The amount of gravel, mud and debris will steadily increase for
>> months. Once broken glass is part of the mix it will be very difficult
>> to spot.
>
> how many times had the street sweeper gone over that section in those
> three months?

Zero. I expect it might get swept in mid May. If we're lucky, it might
get another sweeping in late September. But as I said, a rainstorm had
washed debris into those lanes within a week of their installation.

(I must admit, I didn't keep track of the date they were installed.
Maybe it was four months? I suppose I could dig back through my posts to
see.)

> In my area they streets are swept once a year (really, not kidding),
> usually sometime in mid spring after the threat of any more snow has
> become negligible, mostly to remove sand that has accumulated from the
> snow storms.

Yes. Here it's fine gravel, not sand.

> In those sessions they go all the way to the curb including any bike lanes.

That remains to be seen here. We have very, very few bike lanes. The
photos show the newest, which are also closest to my home. I don't know
that the "protected" bike lane downtown has ever been swept, but I
suppose it has.

> Are you aware of any cases where a street sweeper only sweeps the
> traffic lane and _not_ a bike lane? I've never seen that.

I know that's happened in another Ohio city I visit regularly. In that
case, the problem was narrow "protected" bike lanes that required a mini
sweeper, which the city didn't own. I was told about that by an employee
of that city.

And in other forums, people have posted photos showing serious amounts
of bike lane debris. Autumn photos are common, when wet leaves
accumulate. Those get as slippery as ice, and no practical sweeping
schedule can keep up with those.

> Your picture is quite typical of what bike lanes around here look like
> _most_ of the time.

Right. And I've seen much worse.

>> I suppose some people prefer riding over such debris instead of
>> sharing smooth pavement with motorists. I prefer the clean pavement.
>> How about you?
>>
>
> It depends. I wouldn't have any problem riding through something like
> what appeared in your picture regardless of the traffic.

I'm reminded of the time I was riding on unfamiliar roads to visit folks
in a distant town. I prefer quieter roads, but I had to ride a pretty
busy highway for about half a mile. I was in the lane, as usual, but
decided to use a wide shoulder to let a truck pass me. The shoulder
looked no dirtier than my photos above, but among the gravel there must
have been glass, based on the flat I got.

So I have had problems riding through something like that. I greatly
prefer clean pavement - that is, pavement that car tires roll over at
least occasionally.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/27/2024 11:33 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:

<snip>
> I don't know that I've ever heard anyone claim street sweeping is a cure
> for anything. Certainly diligent and frequent use is quite helpful, but
> "cure"?

<snip>

> I don't think a street sweeper would have been very effective on either
> of those.

Street sweeping protected bike lanes requires a narrow sweeper/vacuum,
which are available.

Frank is philosophically opposed to bike lanes so he will fabricate
whatever narratives are necessary to support his philosophy ─ like our
45th U.S. president.

Protected bike lanes with a concrete divider are best because trash in
the traffic lane ends up mostly against the divider rather than ending
up in the bike lane.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On 3/28/2024 4:31 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:

<snip>

> Good lord....you call _that_ "filled with debris"?

Frank tends to extrapolate conditions in his area to the rest of the world.

Sadly, the Youngstown Ohio area is ranked as #21 on the list of '50
worst American cities to live in' because of the loss of so much of the
steel industry. Hence that area likely does not have a lot of money to
pay for protected bike lanes or street sweeping if the roads there are
only swept twice per year. In my city, streets are swept twice per
month, or more often if requested because of debris.

In my city we have a very large fruit company that has donated a lot of
money towards the construction of bike lanes because so many of their
employees use bicycles to go between their buildings that are located
throughout the city. One of their government affairs directors is a big
cyclist and I've met with him multiple times. They are also going to
provide space for a new bike shop in one of the new buildings they are
constructing which is along a new planned multi-use trails.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On 3/29/2024 11:23 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/29/2024 10:41 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>> On 3/28/2024 11:23 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 3/28/2024 7:31 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>> On 3/27/2024 11:26 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 3/27/2024 2:33 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/27/2024 11:16 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/27/2024 8:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> https://nypost.com/2024/03/27/us-news/atlanta-man-alex-benigno-uses-bike-with-giant-magnet-to-remove-410-pounds-of-screws-nails-sharp-metal-off-streets/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That illustrates that street sweeping isn't the cure
>>>>>>> that some people claim.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And related, I wonder what percentage of his bike
>>>>>>> mileage is within bike lanes?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I've said, IME bike lanes retain debris far, far
>>>>>>> longer than normal traffic lanes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know that I've ever heard anyone claim street
>>>>>> sweeping is a cure for anything. Certainly diligent
>>>>>> and frequent use is quite helpful, but "cure"?
>>>>>
>>>>> As I recall, Roger was claiming that London had
>>>>> frequent sweeping of bike lanes that prevented
>>>>> accumulation of debris. He seemed surprised that our
>>>>> bike lanes have debris, and that our roads are swept
>>>>> just twice per year.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I remember finding a really nice almost new 8"
>>>>>> Vice-Grip brand locking pliers on the side of the road
>>>>>> once (I still have it). A former teammate of mine once
>>>>>> rode home with a waffle iron balanced on his handlebar
>>>>>> that he found on the side of the road. He claimed it
>>>>>> worked.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think a street sweeper would have been very
>>>>>> effective on either of those.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've got a pretty large collection of tools I've found
>>>>> while riding. The best was a complete set of sockets
>>>>> with ratchet handle and case, sprinkled all over the
>>>>> road. My worst miss was an $80 Leatherman that I rode
>>>>> past but my touring buddy behind me nabbed.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't expect street sweeping to suck those tools up.
>>>>> They occur rarely enough that they're not a problem.
>>>>> Gravel, broken glass and other odd trash is more of a
>>>>> problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW, back when we were discussing this I took a couple
>>>>> photos of the newest bike lanes in our area. I
>>>>> mentioned that after just a week, they were filled with
>>>>> debris. They still are. Here are links to a couple shots:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://flic.kr/p/2pFTMe3
>>>>> https://flic.kr/p/2pFSwnV
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good lord....you call _that_ "filled with debris"?
>>>
>>> Well, not "filled." But compared to the traffic lane
>>> beside it?
>>>
>>> And I'll emphasize again, these lanes are now only about
>>> three months old. The amount of gravel, mud and debris
>>> will steadily increase for months. Once broken glass is
>>> part of the mix it will be very difficult to spot.
>>
>> how many times had the street sweeper gone over that
>> section in those three months?
>
> Zero. I expect it might get swept in mid May. If we're
> lucky, it might get another sweeping in late September. But
> as I said, a rainstorm had washed debris into those lanes
> within a week of their installation.
>
> (I must admit, I didn't keep track of the date they were
> installed. Maybe it was four months? I suppose I could dig
> back through my posts to see.)
>
>> In my area they streets are swept once a year (really, not
>> kidding), usually sometime in mid spring after the threat
>> of any more snow has become negligible, mostly to remove
>> sand that has accumulated from the snow storms.
>
> Yes. Here it's fine gravel, not sand.
>
>> In those sessions they go all the way to the curb
>> including any bike lanes.
>
> That remains to be seen here. We have very, very few bike
> lanes. The photos show the newest, which are also closest to
> my home. I don't know that the "protected" bike lane
> downtown has ever been swept, but I suppose it has.
>
>> Are you aware of any cases where a street sweeper only
>> sweeps the traffic lane and _not_ a bike lane? I've never
>> seen that.
>
> I know that's happened in another Ohio city I visit
> regularly. In that case, the problem was narrow "protected"
> bike lanes that required a mini sweeper, which the city
> didn't own. I was told about that by an employee of that city.
>
> And in other forums, people have posted photos showing
> serious amounts of bike lane debris. Autumn photos are
> common, when wet leaves accumulate. Those get as slippery as
> ice, and no practical sweeping schedule can keep up with those.
>
>> Your picture is quite typical of what bike lanes around
>> here look like _most_ of the time.
>
> Right. And I've seen much worse.
>
>>> I suppose some people prefer riding over such debris
>>> instead of sharing smooth pavement with motorists. I
>>> prefer the clean pavement. How about you?
>>>
>>
>> It depends. I wouldn't have any problem riding through
>> something like what appeared in your picture regardless of
>> the traffic.
>
> I'm reminded of the time I was riding on unfamiliar roads to
> visit folks in a distant town. I prefer quieter roads, but I
> had to ride a pretty busy highway for about half a mile. I
> was in the lane, as usual, but decided to use a wide
> shoulder to let a truck pass me. The shoulder looked no
> dirtier than my photos above, but among the gravel there
> must have been glass, based on the flat I got.
>
> So I have had problems riding through something like that. I
> greatly prefer clean pavement - that is, pavement that car
> tires roll over at least occasionally.
>

+1
Excellent conclusion from actual riding, overwrought
theories notwithstanding.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/29/2024 12:13 PM, sms wrote:
> On 3/28/2024 4:31 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Good lord....you call _that_ "filled with debris"?
>
> Frank tends to extrapolate conditions in his area to the
> rest of the world.
>
> Sadly, the Youngstown Ohio area is ranked as #21 on the list
> of '50 worst American cities to live in' because of the loss
> of so much of the steel industry. Hence that area likely
> does not have a lot of money to pay for protected bike lanes
> or street sweeping if the roads there are only swept twice
> per year. In my city, streets are swept twice per month, or
> more often if requested because of debris.
>
> In my city we have a very large fruit company that has
> donated a lot of money towards the construction of bike
> lanes because so many of their employees use bicycles to go
> between their buildings that are located throughout the
> city. One of their government affairs directors is a big
> cyclist and I've met with him multiple times. They are also
> going to provide space for a new bike shop in one of the new
> buildings they are constructing which is along a new planned
> multi-use trails.
>

How large a fruit are those? Watermelons? Durians?
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/29/2024 10:54 AM, AMuzi wrote:

<snip>

> How large a fruit are those? Watermelons? Durians?

No, not watermelons or durians. Most of their money is made selling much
smaller stuff that can sell for for nearly $1600 each piece.

On 3/29/2024 1:03 PM, sms wrote:
> On 3/27/2024 11:33 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>
> <snip>
>> I don't know that I've ever heard anyone claim street sweeping is a
>> cure for anything. Certainly diligent and frequent use is quite
>> helpful, but "cure"?
>
> <snip>
>
>> I don't think a street sweeper would have been very effective on
>> either of those.
>
> Street sweeping protected bike lanes requires a narrow sweeper/vacuum,
> which are available.
>
> Frank is philosophically opposed to bike lanes so he will fabricate
> whatever narratives are necessary to support his philosophy ─ like our
> 45th U.S. president.
>
> Protected bike lanes with a concrete divider are best because trash in
> the traffic lane ends up mostly against the divider rather than ending
> up in the bike lane.
>

I understood us to be talking about unprotected bike lanes, such as in
the picture he showed, and that the discussion of street sweeping wasn't
qualified by protected lanes or smaller street sweeping vehicles.

I personally have had very little experience in protected lanes, but
most of the towns around here have widened shoulders marked as bike
lanes and marked-off sensor areas for trigger traffic lights (which
rarely actually work). It's my experience that these widened shoulders
designated as bike lanes are swept with the same frequency as the roads
in general as there is no physical barrier.
--
Add xx to reply

Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/29/2024 1:03 PM, sms wrote:
>> On 3/27/2024 11:33 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>> I don't know that I've ever heard anyone claim street sweeping is a
>>> cure for anything. Certainly diligent and frequent use is quite
>>> helpful, but "cure"?
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> I don't think a street sweeper would have been very effective on
>>> either of those.
>>
>> Street sweeping protected bike lanes requires a narrow sweeper/vacuum,
>> which are available.
>>
>> Frank is philosophically opposed to bike lanes so he will fabricate
>> whatever narratives are necessary to support his philosophy ─ like our
>> 45th U.S. president.
>>
>> Protected bike lanes with a concrete divider are best because trash in
>> the traffic lane ends up mostly against the divider rather than ending
>> up in the bike lane.
>>
>
> I understood us to be talking about unprotected bike lanes, such as in
> the picture he showed, and that the discussion of street sweeping wasn't
> qualified by protected lanes or smaller street sweeping vehicles.
>
> I personally have had very little experience in protected lanes, but
> most of the towns around here have widened shoulders marked as bike
> lanes and marked-off sensor areas for trigger traffic lights (which
> rarely actually work). It's my experience that these widened shoulders
> designated as bike lanes are swept with the same frequency as the roads
> in general as there is no physical barrier.

Indeed I encounter a range of types fairly frequently, the on road stuff,
is just done by road sweepers, I have seen segregated stuff cleaned by
small sweepers, apparently can also be used to clear snow!

But mostly have seen man and cart for such places.

Roger Merriman

On 3/29/2024 1:13 PM, sms wrote:
> On 3/28/2024 4:31 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Good lord....you call _that_ "filled with debris"?
>
> Frank tends to extrapolate conditions in his area to the rest of the world.
>
> Sadly, the Youngstown Ohio area is ranked as #21 on the list of '50
> worst American cities to live in' because of the loss of so much of the
> steel industry. Hence that area likely does not have a lot of money to
> pay for protected bike lanes or street sweeping if the roads there are
> only swept twice per year. In my city, streets are swept twice per
> month, or more often if requested because of debris.
>
> In my city we have a very large fruit company that has donated a lot of
> money towards the construction of bike lanes because so many of their
> employees use bicycles to go between their buildings that are located
> throughout the city. One of their government affairs directors is a big
> cyclist and I've met with him multiple times. They are also going to
> provide space for a new bike shop in one of the new buildings they are
> constructing which is along a new planned multi-use trails.

I've ridden in literally hundreds of cities around the world. IME,
Youngstown is much more typical than your prosperous little burg.
Really, how many cities are home to one of the wealthiest corporations?
https://money.usnews.com/investing/articles/most-valuable-companies-in-the-world-by-market-cap

IOW, don't extrapolate conditions funded by Apple to the rest of the world.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/29/2024 2:50 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 3/29/2024 1:03 PM, sms wrote:
>> On 3/27/2024 11:33 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>> I don't know that I've ever heard anyone claim street sweeping is a
>>> cure for anything. Certainly diligent and frequent use is quite
>>> helpful, but "cure"?
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> I don't think a street sweeper would have been very effective on
>>> either of those.
>>
>> Street sweeping protected bike lanes requires a narrow sweeper/vacuum,
>> which are available.
>>
>> Frank is philosophically opposed to bike lanes so he will fabricate
>> whatever narratives are necessary to support his philosophy ─ like our
>> 45th U.S. president.
>>
>> Protected bike lanes with a concrete divider are best because trash in
>> the traffic lane ends up mostly against the divider rather than ending
>> up in the bike lane.
>>
>
> I understood us to be talking about unprotected bike lanes, such as in
> the picture he showed, and that the discussion of street sweeping wasn't
> qualified by protected lanes or smaller street sweeping vehicles.
>
> I personally have had very little experience in protected lanes, but
> most of the towns around here have widened shoulders marked as bike
> lanes and marked-off sensor areas for trigger traffic lights (which
> rarely actually work). It's my experience that these widened shoulders
> designated as bike lanes are swept with the same frequency as the roads
> in general as there is no physical barrier.

I think the relevant questions are these: What is that sweeping
frequency? And how much debris accumulates before a sweep cycle?

For a cyclist exercising his legal right to use the normal traffic lane,
both questions are of low importance.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 3/29/2024 2:50 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>> On 3/29/2024 1:03 PM, sms wrote:
>>> On 3/27/2024 11:33 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>> I don't know that I've ever heard anyone claim street sweeping is a
>>>> cure for anything. Certainly diligent and frequent use is quite
>>>> helpful, but "cure"?
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> I don't think a street sweeper would have been very effective on
>>>> either of those.
>>>
>>> Street sweeping protected bike lanes requires a narrow sweeper/vacuum,
>>> which are available.
>>>
>>> Frank is philosophically opposed to bike lanes so he will fabricate
>>> whatever narratives are necessary to support his philosophy ─ like our
>>> 45th U.S. president.
>>>
>>> Protected bike lanes with a concrete divider are best because trash in
>>> the traffic lane ends up mostly against the divider rather than ending
>>> up in the bike lane.
>>>
>>
>> I understood us to be talking about unprotected bike lanes, such as in
>> the picture he showed, and that the discussion of street sweeping wasn't
>> qualified by protected lanes or smaller street sweeping vehicles.
>>
>> I personally have had very little experience in protected lanes, but
>> most of the towns around here have widened shoulders marked as bike
>> lanes and marked-off sensor areas for trigger traffic lights (which
>> rarely actually work). It's my experience that these widened shoulders
>> designated as bike lanes are swept with the same frequency as the roads
>> in general as there is no physical barrier.
>
> I think the relevant questions are these: What is that sweeping
> frequency? And how much debris accumulates before a sweep cycle?
>
> For a cyclist exercising his legal right to use the normal traffic lane,
> both questions are of low importance.
>
>

In my experience bike lanes are generally cleaner than roads which
themselves fairly well swept. And certainly some of the segregated ones are
sufficiently distanced from the road to get any debris spray, and so don’t
need such a frequent sweeping.

I strongly suspect this is more an American thing.

Roger Merriman