https://www.dropbox.com/sh/iqv13jlolwj9nm8/AAAQ95PWFrNab0PjNscwIsjZa?dl=0

This thing costs 4 cents. Or used to.

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/iqv13jlolwj9nm8/AAAQ95PWFrNab0PjNscwIsjZa?dl=0
>
> This thing costs 4 cents. Or used to.
>
>
>
Not bad for 1999.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/iqv13jlolwj9nm8/AAAQ95PWFrNab0PjNscwIsjZa?dl=0
>>
>> This thing costs 4 cents. Or used to.
>>
>>
>>
> Not bad for 1999.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs

2022: CAD$0.59 QTY 1 Mouser

https://octopart.com/search?q=nc7wz17&currency=CAD&specs=0

--
MRM

Mike Monett VE3BTI wrote:
> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/iqv13jlolwj9nm8/AAAQ95PWFrNab0PjNscwIsjZa?dl=0
>>>
>>> This thing costs 4 cents. Or used to.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Not bad for 1999.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
> 2022: CAD$0.59 QTY 1 Mouser
>
> https://octopart.com/search?q=nc7wz17&currency=CAD&specs=0
>
>

Nobody but the grey market folks has any stock. Mouser is expecting 12
parts in February 2024.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 10:36:17 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/iqv13jlolwj9nm8/AAAQ95PWFrNab0PjNscwIsjZa?dl=0
>>
>> This thing costs 4 cents. Or used to.
>>
>>
>>
>Not bad for 1999.

Maybe they shrunk it since then.

>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

Even the first dip-packaged AC and ACT parts were fierce sub-ns
drivers. I don't understand why the max specified delays are so slow,
5.6 ns prop delay in this case with 1.6 measured. Tr and Tf are
unspecified.

So to get performance, one tests real parts and decides how much risk
to take.

5.6 ns would be a problem in the 1to8 clock distribution thing we're
doing. Assuming absolute worst-case on all the parts just wouldn't
work.

We're characterizing real prop delays on some new FPGAs too. The tools
are wildly pessimistic or just silent.

Has anyone seen faster edges from a CMOS gate?

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 10:50:46 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>Mike Monett VE3BTI wrote:
>> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/iqv13jlolwj9nm8/AAAQ95PWFrNab0PjNscwIsjZa?dl=0
>>>>
>>>> This thing costs 4 cents. Or used to.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Not bad for 1999.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Phil Hobbs
>>
>> 2022: CAD$0.59 QTY 1 Mouser
>>
>> https://octopart.com/search?q=nc7wz17&currency=CAD&specs=0
>>
>>
>
>Nobody but the grey market folks has any stock. Mouser is expecting 12
>parts in February 2024.
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

We have 5K in stock so should be OK for a while. I'd expect all their
prop delays to be similar, being purchased together.

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

> Nobody but the grey market folks has any stock. Mouser is expecting 12
> parts in February 2024.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs

WinSource has plenty. They are based in Hong Kong, but so what. Most
semiconductors are made in China anyway.

Yes, you have to worry about counterfeits, but you can get them from
anywhere. That's the reason for using Mouser or Digi-Key for production.

Texas Instruments has a drop-in replacement that is readily available, but
it is pricey:

https://octopart.com/search?q=SN74LVC2G17&currency=CAD&specs=0

An alternative is to design the part out. Two 7404 inverters with feedback
can give just about any amount of hysteresis needed, or a 7414 followed
with a 7404.

Any designer is going to check availability before designing a part in, so
the problem is confined to old units. Repair means only one or two may be
needed at a time, or simply scrap the unit.

Logic glue is going away, so the function may be replaced with an FPGA or
ASIC, or a microcontroller such as the STM32. There's all kinds of options,
so the solution is to not throw up your hands and say it can't be done.

--
MRM

onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 18.38.52 UTC+2 skrev Mike Monett VE3BTI:
> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
> > Nobody but the grey market folks has any stock. Mouser is expecting 12
> > parts in February 2024.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Phil Hobbs
> WinSource has plenty. They are based in Hong Kong, but so what. Most
> semiconductors are made in China anyway.
>
> Yes, you have to worry about counterfeits, but you can get them from
> anywhere. That's the reason for using Mouser or Digi-Key for production.
>
> Texas Instruments has a drop-in replacement that is readily available, but
> it is pricey:
>
> https://octopart.com/search?q=SN74LVC2G17&currency=CAD&specs=0
>

https://lcsc.com/product-detail/Buffers-Drivers_Texas-Instruments-SN74LVC2G17DBVR_C10429.html

16791 in stock, US$0.0884 for 1000+

Mike Monett VE3BTI wrote:
> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> Nobody but the grey market folks has any stock. Mouser is expecting 12
>> parts in February 2024.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
> WinSource has plenty. They are based in Hong Kong, but so what. Most
> semiconductors are made in China anyway.

Oh, lots of folks list them. Whether you get the same silicon is always
a crap shoot, especially in 2022. Rochester I'm okay with, except for
the $300 per line item minimum.

>
> Yes, you have to worry about counterfeits, but you can get them from
> anywhere. That's the reason for using Mouser or Digi-Key for production.
>
> Texas Instruments has a drop-in replacement that is readily available, but
> it is pricey:
>
> https://octopart.com/search?q=SN74LVC2G17&currency=CAD&specs=0
>
> An alternative is to design the part out. Two 7404 inverters with feedback
> can give just about any amount of hysteresis needed, or a 7414 followed
> with a 7404.

But not at subnanosecond speed!

>
> Any designer is going to check availability before designing a part in, so
> the problem is confined to old units. Repair means only one or two may be
> needed at a time, or simply scrap the unit.
>
> Logic glue is going away, so the function may be replaced with an FPGA or
> ASIC, or a microcontroller such as the STM32. There's all kinds of options,
> so the solution is to not throw up your hands and say it can't be done.

Nah, there are all sorts of places where a gate or two is just the right
medicine.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 18.38.52 UTC+2 skrev Mike Monett VE3BTI:
>> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Nobody but the grey market folks has any stock. Mouser is expecting 12
>>> parts in February 2024.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Phil Hobbs
>> WinSource has plenty. They are based in Hong Kong, but so what. Most
>> semiconductors are made in China anyway.
>>
>> Yes, you have to worry about counterfeits, but you can get them from
>> anywhere. That's the reason for using Mouser or Digi-Key for production.
>>
>> Texas Instruments has a drop-in replacement that is readily available, but
>> it is pricey:
>>
>> https://octopart.com/search?q=SN74LVC2G17&currency=CAD&specs=0
>>
>
> https://lcsc.com/product-detail/Buffers-Drivers_Texas-Instruments-SN74LVC2G17DBVR_C10429.html
>
> 16791 in stock, US$0.0884 for 1000+
>
>
Would be worth checking out, but there's no guarantee they're fast like
the ones JL posted. The onsemi ones were several times faster than the
datasheet limit.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 10:36:17 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
>>>
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/iqv13jlolwj9nm8/AAAQ95PWFrNab0PjNscwIsjZa?dl=0
>>>
>>> This thing costs 4 cents. Or used to.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Not bad for 1999.
>
> Maybe they shrunk it since then.
>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
> Even the first dip-packaged AC and ACT parts were fierce sub-ns
> drivers. I don't understand why the max specified delays are so slow,
> 5.6 ns prop delay in this case with 1.6 measured. Tr and Tf are
> unspecified.
>
> So to get performance, one tests real parts and decides how much risk
> to take.
>
> 5.6 ns would be a problem in the 1to8 clock distribution thing we're
> doing. Assuming absolute worst-case on all the parts just wouldn't
> work.
>
> We're characterizing real prop delays on some new FPGAs too. The tools
> are wildly pessimistic or just silent.
>
> Has anyone seen faster edges from a CMOS gate?
>
>
>

My fave FIN1018 line receivers have faster edges, around 400 ps.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

> https://lcsc.com/product-detail/Buffers-Drivers_Texas-Instruments-SN74LVC
> 2G17DBVR_C10429.html
>
> 16791 in stock, US$0.0884 for 1000+

Good catch. I searched LCSC and Jotrin for the original part, but forgot to
check for the TI part.

--
MRM

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>> An alternative is to design the part out. Two 7404 inverters with feedback
>> can give just about any amount of hysteresis needed, or a 7414 followed
>> with a 7404.
>
> But not at subnanosecond speed!

Of course not. I expect you to substitute your favorite AUC or AVC. Besides,
Lasse found the TI part at LCSC.

A schmidt part is usually only needed on I/O ports. These rarely go to 1GHz.

I rack my brain, but I can't find any need for non-inverting hysteresis on
internal circuitry, except for RC multivibrators. These normally don't go to
1GHz.

--
MRM

onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 19.52.23 UTC+2 skrev Phil Hobbs:
> Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> > onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 18.38.52 UTC+2 skrev Mike Monett VE3BTI:
> >> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Nobody but the grey market folks has any stock. Mouser is expecting 12
> >>> parts in February 2024.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers
> >>>
> >>> Phil Hobbs
> >> WinSource has plenty. They are based in Hong Kong, but so what. Most
> >> semiconductors are made in China anyway.
> >>
> >> Yes, you have to worry about counterfeits, but you can get them from
> >> anywhere. That's the reason for using Mouser or Digi-Key for production.
> >>
> >> Texas Instruments has a drop-in replacement that is readily available, but
> >> it is pricey:
> >>
> >> https://octopart.com/search?q=SN74LVC2G17&currency=CAD&specs=0
> >>
> >
> > https://lcsc.com/product-detail/Buffers-Drivers_Texas-Instruments-SN74LVC2G17DBVR_C10429.html
> >
> > 16791 in stock, US$0.0884 for 1000+
> >
> >
> Would be worth checking out, but there's no guarantee they're fast like
> the ones JL posted. The onsemi ones were several times faster than the
> datasheet limit.

the SN74LVC2G17 datasheet list 2.2ns/5.4ns min/max @ 3.3V and 1.5ns/4.3ns min/max @ 5V -40'C-85'C, 50pf/500R

the NC7WZ17 datasheet list 7.3ns max @3.3V and 6.2ns max @5V with no minimums -40'C-85'C, 50pf/500R

so on paper Johns part look slower, but who knows

Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 19.52.23 UTC+2 skrev Phil Hobbs:
>> Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>> onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 18.38.52 UTC+2 skrev Mike Monett VE3BTI:
>>>> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Nobody but the grey market folks has any stock. Mouser is expecting 12
>>>>> parts in February 2024.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>> WinSource has plenty. They are based in Hong Kong, but so what. Most
>>>> semiconductors are made in China anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, you have to worry about counterfeits, but you can get them from
>>>> anywhere. That's the reason for using Mouser or Digi-Key for production.
>>>>
>>>> Texas Instruments has a drop-in replacement that is readily available, but
>>>> it is pricey:
>>>>
>>>> https://octopart.com/search?q=SN74LVC2G17&currency=CAD&specs=0
>>>>
>>>
>>> https://lcsc.com/product-detail/Buffers-Drivers_Texas-Instruments-SN74LVC2G17DBVR_C10429.html
>>>
>>> 16791 in stock, US$0.0884 for 1000+
>>>
>>>
>> Would be worth checking out, but there's no guarantee they're fast like
>> the ones JL posted. The onsemi ones were several times faster than the
>> datasheet limit.
>
> the SN74LVC2G17 datasheet list 2.2ns/5.4ns min/max @ 3.3V and 1.5ns/4.3ns min/max @ 5V -40'C-85'C, 50pf/500R
>
> the NC7WZ17 datasheet list 7.3ns max @3.3V and 6.2ns max @5V with no minimums -40'C-85'C, 50pf/500R
>
>
> so on paper Johns part look slower, but who knows

His pictures are showing 600 ps edges. Some LVDS line receivers are
faster--my late fave FIN1018 is around 400 ps.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Mike Monett VE3BTI wrote:
> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>>> An alternative is to design the part out. Two 7404 inverters with feedback
>>> can give just about any amount of hysteresis needed, or a 7414 followed
>>> with a 7404.
>>
>> But not at subnanosecond speed!
>
> Of course not. I expect you to substitute your favorite AUC or AVC. Besides,
> Lasse found the TI part at LCSC.
>
> A schmidt part is usually only needed on I/O ports. These rarely go to 1GHz.
>
> I rack my brain, but I can't find any need for non-inverting hysteresis on
> internal circuitry, except for RC multivibrators. These normally don't go to
> 1GHz.
>
>
>

Squaring up slower logic before reclocking, for instance.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

> Squaring up slower logic before reclocking, for instance.
>
> Cheers
>
> Phil Hobbs
>

Maybe for a 1 Hz oscillator, but even then a 74AC14 would work.

--
MRM

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 14:22:53 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

>Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>> onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 19.52.23 UTC+2 skrev Phil Hobbs:
>>> Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>>> onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 18.38.52 UTC+2 skrev Mike Monett VE3BTI:
>>>>> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Nobody but the grey market folks has any stock. Mouser is expecting 12
>>>>>> parts in February 2024.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>>> WinSource has plenty. They are based in Hong Kong, but so what. Most
>>>>> semiconductors are made in China anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, you have to worry about counterfeits, but you can get them from
>>>>> anywhere. That's the reason for using Mouser or Digi-Key for production.
>>>>>
>>>>> Texas Instruments has a drop-in replacement that is readily available, but
>>>>> it is pricey:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://octopart.com/search?q=SN74LVC2G17&currency=CAD&specs=0
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://lcsc.com/product-detail/Buffers-Drivers_Texas-Instruments-SN74LVC2G17DBVR_C10429.html
>>>>
>>>> 16791 in stock, US$0.0884 for 1000+
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Would be worth checking out, but there's no guarantee they're fast like
>>> the ones JL posted. The onsemi ones were several times faster than the
>>> datasheet limit.
>>
>> the SN74LVC2G17 datasheet list 2.2ns/5.4ns min/max @ 3.3V and 1.5ns/4.3ns min/max @ 5V -40'C-85'C, 50pf/500R
>>
>> the NC7WZ17 datasheet list 7.3ns max @3.3V and 6.2ns max @5V with no minimums -40'C-85'C, 50pf/500R
>>
>>
>> so on paper Johns part look slower, but who knows
>
>His pictures are showing 600 ps edges. Some LVDS line receivers are
>faster--my late fave FIN1018 is around 400 ps.
>
>Cheers
>
>Phil Hobbs

This tiny flop is crazy:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gyn0nz486fmqp1s/AAB5kwDWJ1VR8EXMjGRHs4iEa?dl=0

Prop delay is spec'd 1 ns typ.

onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 20.23.02 UTC+2 skrev Phil Hobbs:
> Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> > onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 19.52.23 UTC+2 skrev Phil Hobbs:
> >> Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> >>> onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 18.38.52 UTC+2 skrev Mike Monett VE3BTI:
> >>>> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Nobody but the grey market folks has any stock. Mouser is expecting 12
> >>>>> parts in February 2024.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cheers
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Phil Hobbs
> >>>> WinSource has plenty. They are based in Hong Kong, but so what. Most
> >>>> semiconductors are made in China anyway.
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes, you have to worry about counterfeits, but you can get them from
> >>>> anywhere. That's the reason for using Mouser or Digi-Key for production.
> >>>>
> >>>> Texas Instruments has a drop-in replacement that is readily available, but
> >>>> it is pricey:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://octopart.com/search?q=SN74LVC2G17&currency=CAD&specs=0
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> https://lcsc.com/product-detail/Buffers-Drivers_Texas-Instruments-SN74LVC2G17DBVR_C10429.html
> >>>
> >>> 16791 in stock, US$0.0884 for 1000+
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Would be worth checking out, but there's no guarantee they're fast like
> >> the ones JL posted. The onsemi ones were several times faster than the
> >> datasheet limit.
> >
> > the SN74LVC2G17 datasheet list 2.2ns/5.4ns min/max @ 3.3V and 1.5ns/4.3ns min/max @ 5V -40'C-85'C, 50pf/500R
> >
> > the NC7WZ17 datasheet list 7.3ns max @3.3V and 6.2ns max @5V with no minimums -40'C-85'C, 50pf/500R
> >
> >
> > so on paper Johns part look slower, but who knows
> His pictures are showing 600 ps edges. Some LVDS line receivers are

yeh, seems the datasheet is barely half the story

and the datasheet on TI site say Tpd 1ns min @5V for the 74LVC2G17
and 0.7ns min @5V for the 74LVC1G17

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 16:38:35 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett VE3BTI
<spamme@not.com> wrote:

>Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> Nobody but the grey market folks has any stock. Mouser is expecting 12
>> parts in February 2024.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
>WinSource has plenty. They are based in Hong Kong, but so what. Most
>semiconductors are made in China anyway.
>
>Yes, you have to worry about counterfeits, but you can get them from
>anywhere. That's the reason for using Mouser or Digi-Key for production.
>
>Texas Instruments has a drop-in replacement that is readily available, but
>it is pricey:
>
>https://octopart.com/search?q=SN74LVC2G17&currency=CAD&specs=0
>
>An alternative is to design the part out. Two 7404 inverters with feedback
>can give just about any amount of hysteresis needed, or a 7414 followed
>with a 7404.

Making hysteresis with external resistors is dicey. You can usually
couple a whoopie-doo through a gate or two before the external
hysteresis makes it around.

>
>Any designer is going to check availability before designing a part in, so
>the problem is confined to old units. Repair means only one or two may be
>needed at a time, or simply scrap the unit.
>
>Logic glue is going away, so the function may be replaced with an FPGA or
>ASIC, or a microcontroller such as the STM32. There's all kinds of options,
>so the solution is to not throw up your hands and say it can't be done.

FPGAs are getting faster internally and slower in and out. And they
have a ton of jitter if there are multiple signals and clocks on the
chip. Sometimes glue logic is much better. Minimal FPGA pin-pin delays
are in the 6 ns ballpark.

We sometimes wrap an FPGA around a discrete flop, to do its gating and
reset and stuff, but keep the CLK>Q critical, fast, low jitter path
discrete.

I wish there were disctete flops with a CE input. And an LVDS logic
family.

onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 21.51.51 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 16:38:35 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett VE3BTI
> <spa...@not.com> wrote:
>
> >Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Nobody but the grey market folks has any stock. Mouser is expecting 12
> >> parts in February 2024.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Phil Hobbs
> >
> >WinSource has plenty. They are based in Hong Kong, but so what. Most
> >semiconductors are made in China anyway.
> >
> >Yes, you have to worry about counterfeits, but you can get them from
> >anywhere. That's the reason for using Mouser or Digi-Key for production.
> >
> >Texas Instruments has a drop-in replacement that is readily available, but
> >it is pricey:
> >
> >https://octopart.com/search?q=SN74LVC2G17&currency=CAD&specs=0
> >
> >An alternative is to design the part out. Two 7404 inverters with feedback
> >can give just about any amount of hysteresis needed, or a 7414 followed
> >with a 7404.
> Making hysteresis with external resistors is dicey. You can usually
> couple a whoopie-doo through a gate or two before the external
> hysteresis makes it around.
> >
> >Any designer is going to check availability before designing a part in, so
> >the problem is confined to old units. Repair means only one or two may be
> >needed at a time, or simply scrap the unit.
> >
> >Logic glue is going away, so the function may be replaced with an FPGA or
> >ASIC, or a microcontroller such as the STM32. There's all kinds of options,
> >so the solution is to not throw up your hands and say it can't be done.
> FPGAs are getting faster internally and slower in and out. And they
> have a ton of jitter if there are multiple signals and clocks on the
> chip. Sometimes glue logic is much better. Minimal FPGA pin-pin delays
> are in the 6 ns ballpark.
>
> We sometimes wrap an FPGA around a discrete flop, to do its gating and
> reset and stuff, but keep the CLK>Q critical, fast, low jitter path
> discrete.
>
> I wish there were disctete flops with a CE input.

an FF and a 1 of 2 mux on the data? SN74LVC1G19 ?

>And an LVDS logic family.

https://www.onsemi.com/products/timing-logic-memory/clock-data-distribution/logic-gates/nb7l86a

John Larkin wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 14:22:53 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>
>> Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>> onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 19.52.23 UTC+2 skrev Phil Hobbs:
>>>> Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
>>>>> onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 18.38.52 UTC+2 skrev Mike Monett VE3BTI:
>>>>>> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nobody but the grey market folks has any stock. Mouser is expecting 12
>>>>>>> parts in February 2024.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Phil Hobbs
>>>>>> WinSource has plenty. They are based in Hong Kong, but so what. Most
>>>>>> semiconductors are made in China anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, you have to worry about counterfeits, but you can get them from
>>>>>> anywhere. That's the reason for using Mouser or Digi-Key for production.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Texas Instruments has a drop-in replacement that is readily available, but
>>>>>> it is pricey:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://octopart.com/search?q=SN74LVC2G17&currency=CAD&specs=0
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://lcsc.com/product-detail/Buffers-Drivers_Texas-Instruments-SN74LVC2G17DBVR_C10429.html
>>>>>
>>>>> 16791 in stock, US$0.0884 for 1000+
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Would be worth checking out, but there's no guarantee they're fast like
>>>> the ones JL posted. The onsemi ones were several times faster than the
>>>> datasheet limit.
>>>
>>> the SN74LVC2G17 datasheet list 2.2ns/5.4ns min/max @ 3.3V and 1.5ns/4.3ns min/max @ 5V -40'C-85'C, 50pf/500R
>>>
>>> the NC7WZ17 datasheet list 7.3ns max @3.3V and 6.2ns max @5V with no minimums -40'C-85'C, 50pf/500R
>>>
>>>
>>> so on paper Johns part look slower, but who knows
>>
>> His pictures are showing 600 ps edges. Some LVDS line receivers are
>> faster--my late fave FIN1018 is around 400 ps.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
> This tiny flop is crazy:
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gyn0nz486fmqp1s/AAB5kwDWJ1VR8EXMjGRHs4iEa?dl=0
>
> Prop delay is spec'd 1 ns typ.
>
>
>
Interesting that the rise is so much faster than the fall--128 ps vs.
400 ps. Since the NFETs are faster than the PFETs, one gathers that it
has more to do with the turn-off time than the turn-on.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com

torsdag den 1. september 2022 kl. 00.42.49 UTC+2 skrev Phil Hobbs:
> John Larkin wrote:
> > On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 14:22:53 -0400, Phil Hobbs
> > <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> >>> onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 19.52.23 UTC+2 skrev Phil Hobbs:
> >>>> Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
> >>>>> onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 18.38.52 UTC+2 skrev Mike Monett VE3BTI:
> >>>>>> Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Nobody but the grey market folks has any stock. Mouser is expecting 12
> >>>>>>> parts in February 2024.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Cheers
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Phil Hobbs
> >>>>>> WinSource has plenty. They are based in Hong Kong, but so what. Most
> >>>>>> semiconductors are made in China anyway.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Yes, you have to worry about counterfeits, but you can get them from
> >>>>>> anywhere. That's the reason for using Mouser or Digi-Key for production.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Texas Instruments has a drop-in replacement that is readily available, but
> >>>>>> it is pricey:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://octopart.com/search?q=SN74LVC2G17&currency=CAD&specs=0
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://lcsc.com/product-detail/Buffers-Drivers_Texas-Instruments-SN74LVC2G17DBVR_C10429.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 16791 in stock, US$0.0884 for 1000+
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> Would be worth checking out, but there's no guarantee they're fast like
> >>>> the ones JL posted. The onsemi ones were several times faster than the
> >>>> datasheet limit.
> >>>
> >>> the SN74LVC2G17 datasheet list 2.2ns/5.4ns min/max @ 3.3V and 1.5ns/4.3ns min/max @ 5V -40'C-85'C, 50pf/500R
> >>>
> >>> the NC7WZ17 datasheet list 7.3ns max @3.3V and 6.2ns max @5V with no minimums -40'C-85'C, 50pf/500R
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> so on paper Johns part look slower, but who knows
> >>
> >> His pictures are showing 600 ps edges. Some LVDS line receivers are
> >> faster--my late fave FIN1018 is around 400 ps.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Phil Hobbs
> >
> > This tiny flop is crazy:
> >
> > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/gyn0nz486fmqp1s/AAB5kwDWJ1VR8EXMjGRHs4iEa?dl=0
> >
> > Prop delay is spec'd 1 ns typ.
> >
> >
> >
> Interesting that the rise is so much faster than the fall--128 ps vs.
> 400 ps. Since the NFETs are faster than the PFETs, one gathers that it
> has more to do with the turn-off time than the turn-on.
> Cheers

the datasheet also list slightly lower dropout for Voh than Vol

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 13:25:05 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

>onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 21.51.51 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
>> On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 16:38:35 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett VE3BTI
>> <spa...@not.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Nobody but the grey market folks has any stock. Mouser is expecting 12
>> >> parts in February 2024.
>> >>
>> >> Cheers
>> >>
>> >> Phil Hobbs
>> >
>> >WinSource has plenty. They are based in Hong Kong, but so what. Most
>> >semiconductors are made in China anyway.
>> >
>> >Yes, you have to worry about counterfeits, but you can get them from
>> >anywhere. That's the reason for using Mouser or Digi-Key for production.
>> >
>> >Texas Instruments has a drop-in replacement that is readily available, but
>> >it is pricey:
>> >
>> >https://octopart.com/search?q=SN74LVC2G17&currency=CAD&specs=0
>> >
>> >An alternative is to design the part out. Two 7404 inverters with feedback
>> >can give just about any amount of hysteresis needed, or a 7414 followed
>> >with a 7404.
>> Making hysteresis with external resistors is dicey. You can usually
>> couple a whoopie-doo through a gate or two before the external
>> hysteresis makes it around.
>> >
>> >Any designer is going to check availability before designing a part in, so
>> >the problem is confined to old units. Repair means only one or two may be
>> >needed at a time, or simply scrap the unit.
>> >
>> >Logic glue is going away, so the function may be replaced with an FPGA or
>> >ASIC, or a microcontroller such as the STM32. There's all kinds of options,
>> >so the solution is to not throw up your hands and say it can't be done.
>> FPGAs are getting faster internally and slower in and out. And they
>> have a ton of jitter if there are multiple signals and clocks on the
>> chip. Sometimes glue logic is much better. Minimal FPGA pin-pin delays
>> are in the 6 ns ballpark.
>>
>> We sometimes wrap an FPGA around a discrete flop, to do its gating and
>> reset and stuff, but keep the CLK>Q critical, fast, low jitter path
>> discrete.
>>
>> I wish there were disctete flops with a CE input.
>
>an FF and a 1 of 2 mux on the data? SN74LVC1G19 ?

Close but maybe a little squirrely.

>
>>And an LVDS logic family.
>
>https://www.onsemi.com/products/timing-logic-memory/clock-data-distribution/logic-gates/nb7l86a

Yes, PECL logic is mostly LVDS compatible. But that one is $32 and the
cmos flop is 12 cents. We do use some GigaComm parts when we really
need the speed. Fast, expensive power hogs.

We'll fake a CE function on an NC7SV74 by bashing preset and clear; we
just had a meeting about that. I've been assigned to dremel up a test
board to see if it behaves itself. I've seen flops that can propagate
a glitch from a clocked input even when held clear.

torsdag den 1. september 2022 kl. 01.33.53 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 13:25:05 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
> <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote:
>
> >onsdag den 31. august 2022 kl. 21.51.51 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
> >> On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 16:38:35 -0000 (UTC), Mike Monett VE3BTI
> >> <spa...@not.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamM...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Nobody but the grey market folks has any stock. Mouser is expecting 12
> >> >> parts in February 2024.
> >> >>
> >> >> Cheers
> >> >>
> >> >> Phil Hobbs
> >> >
> >> >WinSource has plenty. They are based in Hong Kong, but so what. Most
> >> >semiconductors are made in China anyway.
> >> >
> >> >Yes, you have to worry about counterfeits, but you can get them from
> >> >anywhere. That's the reason for using Mouser or Digi-Key for production.
> >> >
> >> >Texas Instruments has a drop-in replacement that is readily available, but
> >> >it is pricey:
> >> >
> >> >https://octopart.com/search?q=SN74LVC2G17&currency=CAD&specs=0
> >> >
> >> >An alternative is to design the part out. Two 7404 inverters with feedback
> >> >can give just about any amount of hysteresis needed, or a 7414 followed
> >> >with a 7404.
> >> Making hysteresis with external resistors is dicey. You can usually
> >> couple a whoopie-doo through a gate or two before the external
> >> hysteresis makes it around.
> >> >
> >> >Any designer is going to check availability before designing a part in, so
> >> >the problem is confined to old units. Repair means only one or two may be
> >> >needed at a time, or simply scrap the unit.
> >> >
> >> >Logic glue is going away, so the function may be replaced with an FPGA or
> >> >ASIC, or a microcontroller such as the STM32. There's all kinds of options,
> >> >so the solution is to not throw up your hands and say it can't be done.
> >> FPGAs are getting faster internally and slower in and out. And they
> >> have a ton of jitter if there are multiple signals and clocks on the
> >> chip. Sometimes glue logic is much better. Minimal FPGA pin-pin delays
> >> are in the 6 ns ballpark.
> >>
> >> We sometimes wrap an FPGA around a discrete flop, to do its gating and
> >> reset and stuff, but keep the CLK>Q critical, fast, low jitter path
> >> discrete.
> >>
> >> I wish there were disctete flops with a CE input.
> >
> >an FF and a 1 of 2 mux on the data? SN74LVC1G19 ?
> Close but maybe a little squirrely.

https://asicdigitaldesign.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/enable_flops_01.png