On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:28:12 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 04:24:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
> <e0350540-99d8-4ebc...@googlegroups.com>:
> >On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 2:09:29 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 10:51:03 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
> >> > On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
> >> > <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> > >Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
> >> > >
> >> > > https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
> >>
> >> > What's Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
> >> > > Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and
> >charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed
> >the rollout of EVs.
> >> > > Here's how they work.
> >> > >
> >> > >Circuits!! Chips!!!
> >> > >been so long....
> >> > Fun:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > https://www.mystateline.com/news/national/california-asks-residents-not-to-charge-electric-vehicles-days-after-announcing-gas-car-ban/
> >>
> >"the American Public Power Association said, and limit energy usage during
> >4 p.m. and p.m."
> >>
> >> Fine. I only charge in a.m.
> >
> >I don't know why people are getting wigged out by BEVs. Every BEV I am aware
> >of has a timer to allow charging only at all peak times. Many people have
> >ToU billing, which means they will charge at night or during other times
> >of excess capacity. Some BEV owners are not aware of peak power issues, but
> >then many people have no timing control on their dishwasher or water heater,
> >which will use more power than charging a BEV, and right at peak time!
> >
> >While
> >only a few have a BEV, even in California, pretty much everyone has a
> >hot water heater. I bet they could benefit from better efficiency from those.
> > Maybe they need to run off 480VAC?
> You still do not see the high voltage issue
> In a hot water heater the load is purely resistive and all electricity is converted to heat the water
> no matter how high the voltage,
> but the power line losses are bigger at 120 V than at 480 V or 230 V as we have here.

Sorry, you have lost me on this one. The power line losses depend on the wiring as well as the current. That's why we run water heaters on 240V. Actually, the line loss is a limiting factor, not something that we try to minimize. It's always low enough that there's little economic reason to worry about the losses. But the wires heat up and can cause problems. So we set a limit and use an appropriate size wire. At higher voltages smaller wire could be used, but it has reached the point of "who cares".

That's what it has in common with running a BEV motor off 400V batteries. It's a level of performance called, "good enough". No point in trying to guild the lily. The focus is on extending range in significant ways. Turning the charging world on its head is good enough reason to stick with 400V.

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:29:02 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 04:30:05 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
> <ea2df0a6-bc3b-481c...@googlegroups.com>:
> >On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 1:24:07 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >> On a sunny day (Wed, 31 Aug 2022 10:21:52 -0700) it happened John Larkin
> >>
> ><jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote in
> >> <v26vghhlot2rjrgbi...@4ax.com>:
> >> >On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 16:47:17 GMT, Jan Panteltje
> >> ><pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>On a sunny day (Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:17:57 -0700) it happened
> >> >>jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
> >> >><ueuugh5i6e6qrkktv...@4ax.com>:
> >> >>
> >> >>>On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
> >> >>><pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>>Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
> >>
> >>>>> What's Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
> >> >>>> Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and
> >charging time issues that have created barriers
> >> >>>> with
> >> >>>> consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
> >> >>>> Here's how they work.
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>Circuits!! Chips!!!
> >> >>>>been so long....
> >> >>>
> >> >>>That's an ad, not an article, and it's full of annoying popups and 33
> >>
> >>>>cookies.
> >> >>Did not see a single popup in Chromium on my Linux on a Pi4 8 GB.
> >> >>
> >> >>>Motor losses reduced by a factor of 4 at 800 volts, and using smaller
> >>
> >>>>motors at 800 volts, is absurd.
> >> >>
> >> >>Well, its maaz
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>> And they suggest that a window winder
> >> >>>motor will run at 800 volts.
> >> >>
> >> >>When you get a bit more experienced with tronix you will encounter buck
> >converters.
> >> >
> >> >The claim is that motors are more efficient, less copper loss, run at
> >> >800 volts. Nonsense.
> >> Say you, big car companies seem to think different.. so do I.
> >> As to window winder motors.. If I was to design such a car
> >> why not get stuff running from just a few of those (hundreds) cells?
> >> Those small motors that only run occasionaly have no signicifant impact on
> >cell balances.
> >
> >You don't know that. The real point is, it would create a consistent imbalance
> >in the cell usage as well as greatly complicate the wiring in the car,
> >running power from two different sources. The main battery runs the motor
> >and a converter to provide power to keep the 12V system working. Then the
> >entire rest of the car runs off that.
> >
> >
> >> So use a 48 V motor on 12 cells or whwtever, you can spread differrnt things
> >>
> >over the whole battery pack.. each with a fuse.
> >
> >Years ago, there was a big push to up the standard voltage on cars to 48 or
> >56 volts (don't recall the exact number). It never happened.
> >
> >
> >> Learn to think outside the box. Stop moaning.
> >
> >You need to be within sight of the box or you end up solving a problem you don't
> >have.
> A car is only a small box, and by using the cells directly you do not get any voltage converter efficiency losses.
> Wiring is a one time issue.

Yes, and I'm sure there are many ways to provide microscopic improvements in efficiency. This is not one any carmaker will use. Maybe in India, because it also is cheaper... maybe.
Wiring is not a one time issue. You have to pay to drive it around. It may not be a lot, but neither is the efficiency improvements from tapping the batteries directly, and they will require a lot of extra work elsewhere. It's one of those things that sound good on paper.

--

Rick C.

-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 16:14:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
<da72c08f-1d06-46e1-967f-6c87e21ffc04n@googlegroups.com>:

>On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:28:12 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>> On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 04:24:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
>>
><gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
>> <e0350540-99d8-4ebc...@googlegroups.com>:
>> >On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 2:09:29 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
>> >> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 10:51:03 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>>
>>> > On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>> >> > <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> > >Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
>>
>>>
>> >> > What's Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
>> >> > > Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range
>and
>> >charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed
>>
>>the rollout of EVs.
>> >> > > Here's how they work.
>> >> > >
>> >> > >Circuits!! Chips!!!
>> >> > >been so long....
>> >> > Fun:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > https://www.mystateline.com/news/national/california-asks-residents-not-to-charge-electric-vehicles-days-after-announcing-gas-car-ban/
>>
>>>
>> >"the American Public Power Association said, and limit energy usage during
>>
>>4 p.m. and p.m."
>> >>
>> >> Fine. I only charge in a.m.
>> >
>> >I don't know why people are getting wigged out by BEVs. Every BEV I am aware
>>
>>of has a timer to allow charging only at all peak times. Many people have
>>
>>ToU billing, which means they will charge at night or during other times
>>
>>of excess capacity. Some BEV owners are not aware of peak power issues, but
>>
>>then many people have no timing control on their dishwasher or water heater,
>>
>>which will use more power than charging a BEV, and right at peak time!
>>
>>
>> >While
>> >only a few have a BEV, even in California, pretty much everyone has a
>> >hot water heater. I bet they could benefit from better efficiency from those.
>>
>> Maybe they need to run off 480VAC?
>> You still do not see the high voltage issue
>> In a hot water heater the load is purely resistive and all electricity is
>converted to heat the water
>> no matter how high the voltage,
>> but the power line losses are bigger at 120 V than at 480 V or 230 V as we
>have here.
>
>Sorry, you have lost me on this one. The power line losses depend on the wiring
>as well as the current. That's why we run water heaters on 240V. Actually,
>the line loss is a limiting factor, not something that we try to minimize.
> It's always low enough that there's little economic reason to worry
>about the losses. But the wires heat up and can cause problems. So we set
>a limit and use an appropriate size wire. At higher voltages smaller wire
>could be used, but it has reached the point of "who cares".

Sure,depends on the wire diameter,
many things from China come with a 110 V to 230 V spec, and some extra
adaptor to US mains sockets...
So for same wire dimensions more losses when at 110 V.
The water heater is a bit different case.

>That's what it has in common with running a BEV motor off 400V batteries. It's
>a level of performance called, "good enough". No point in trying to guild
>the lily. The focus is on extending range in significant ways. Turning
>the charging world on its head is good enough reason to stick with 400V.

Just learned a new expression, according to the all-knowing (?) google
it is spelled "gild the lily' but anyways, got the point.

Well, as (IIRC) the article mentioned, more cars charging at the same spot
makes things a bit easier with lower currents..

I do think very high voltages have their own problem, 800 V and moisture (for example rain)
at a charging point needs special safety measures to prevent fire and electrocution...
Inductive chargers that you just park above? May melt things too at high power.

There is still work on hydrogen cars gong on, but Hindenburg comes to mind.
My idea of every car an RTG would work, but DIY tinkerers would drill holes in those
not even mentioning collisions.

That leaves wind powered cars !!!
After all Columbus went all the way to 'merrica with wind power!

On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 16:17:38 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
<gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
<8f107716-7597-473b-bd98-bc9d0bbc99b5n@googlegroups.com>:

>Yes, and I'm sure there are many ways to provide microscopic improvements in
>efficiency. This is not one any carmaker will use. Maybe in India, because
>it also is cheaper... maybe.
>Wiring is not a one time issue. You have to pay to drive it around. It may
>not be a lot, but neither is the efficiency improvements from tapping the
>batteries directly, and they will require a lot of extra work elsewhere. It's
>one of those things that sound good on paper.

I dunno
take headlights
Normal car headlights do not run on a stabilized power supply.

Spread those over a few cells, use 12 V headlights over 3 or 4 cells (whatever battery chemistry is used)
Power MOSFETs and optocouplers can switch on individual cell groups.
That is already some power, heating or airco maybe an other one.
All those switcher losses gone.
Sell as super-green!!

On Thu, 01 Sep 2022 13:23:46 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 04:24:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
><gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote in
><e0350540-99d8-4ebc-b6ff-fe48a5ea949an@googlegroups.com>:
>
>>On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 2:09:29 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 10:51:03 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
>>> > On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>>> > <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> > >Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
>>> > >
>>> > > https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
>>>
>>> > What's Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
>>> > > Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and
>>charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed
>>the rollout of EVs.
>>> > > Here's how they work.
>>> > >
>>> > >Circuits!! Chips!!!
>>> > >been so long....
>>> > Fun:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > https://www.mystateline.com/news/national/california-asks-residents-not-to-charge-electric-vehicles-days-after-announcing-gas-car-ban/
>>>
>>"the American Public Power Association said, and limit energy usage during
>>4 p.m. and p.m."
>>>
>>> Fine. I only charge in a.m.
>>
>>I don't know why people are getting wigged out by BEVs. Every BEV I am aware
>>of has a timer to allow charging only at all peak times. Many people have
>>ToU billing, which means they will charge at night or during other times
>>of excess capacity. Some BEV owners are not aware of peak power issues, but
>>then many people have no timing control on their dishwasher or water heater,
>>which will use more power than charging a BEV, and right at peak time!
>>
>>While
>>only a few have a BEV, even in California, pretty much everyone has a
>>hot water heater. I bet they could benefit from better efficiency from those.
>> Maybe they need to run off 480VAC?
>
>You still do not see the high voltage issue
>In a hot water heater the load is purely resistive and all electricity is converted to heat the water
>no matter how high the voltage,
>but the power line losses are bigger at 120 V than at 480 V or 230 V as we have here.
>

Did Ricky actually suggest that resistive heaters are more efficient
at higher voltages? Like the 800 volt motors? Would three phase 480
volts be three times as efficient? Hilarious.

Resistive heating of cold water is insane anyhow.

On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
> https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
> What's Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
> Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
> Here's how they work.

In a 100 kW/400 V charging station, the current is 250 A. Assuming 6
A/mm**2 to keep the charging cable reasonable cold, two 80 mm**2 (10
mm diameter) conductors are required. At 800 V only two 40 mm**2
conductors are needed and thus easier to handle.

Why not ho to 1500 V, still remaining within IEC Low Voltage and EU
Low Voltage Directive (LVD) with only 5 mm conductor diameters.

Even faster (200-500 kW) charging stations would be available for
busses and trucks.

On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 7:11:54 AM UTC-7, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
> > https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
> > What's Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
> > Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
> > Here's how they work.
> In a 100 kW/400 V charging station, the current is 250 A. Assuming 6
> A/mm**2 to keep the charging cable reasonable cold, two 80 mm**2 (10
> mm diameter) conductors are required. At 800 V only two 40 mm**2
> conductors are needed and thus easier to handle.
>
> Why not ho to 1500 V, still remaining within IEC Low Voltage and EU
> Low Voltage Directive (LVD) with only 5 mm conductor diameters.
>
> Even faster (200-500 kW) charging stations would be available for
> busses and trucks.

Why not two (or more) 400V cables? It's doesn't take much time to plug and unplug multiple cables. 400V shock is painful. 800V could be deadly. I touched live 400V wires many times. Sometimes i can feel it, sometimes not.

On a sunny day (Sat, 03 Sep 2022 17:11:44 +0300) it happened
upsidedown@downunder.com wrote in
<t6n6hhp6l6f8g6g4p266k8f5pkqcjnbn1i@4ax.com>:

>On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
>>
>> https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
>> What's Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
>> Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with
>> consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
>> Here's how they work.
>
>In a 100 kW/400 V charging station, the current is 250 A. Assuming 6
>A/mm**2 to keep the charging cable reasonable cold, two 80 mm**2 (10
>mm diameter) conductors are required. At 800 V only two 40 mm**2
>conductors are needed and thus easier to handle.
>
>Why not ho to 1500 V, still remaining within IEC Low Voltage and EU
>Low Voltage Directive (LVD) with only 5 mm conductor diameters.
>
>Even faster (200-500 kW) charging stations would be available for
>busses and trucks.

Using high voltages has its drawback...
Here, due to a fire in a HV transformer, the main EHV cables overheatsd and some fell on the
train railway
That caused a whole lot of infrasructure to be exposed to that EHV,
causing fires all along the train track (guess its their control systems).
in Dutch, but see the pictures:
https://flevopost.nl/dronten/Brand-in-onderstation-aan-Olsterpad-veroorzaakt-grote-stroomstoring-27903754.html

It not so much the voltage but the power behind it that does the harm.
Been zapped many times by 25 kV from CRT color sets.
But 230 V with some amps will kill you.
Rain at a charging station, things like that

On Sat, 03 Sep 2022 17:38:32 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On a sunny day (Sat, 03 Sep 2022 17:11:44 +0300) it happened
>upsidedown@downunder.com wrote in
><t6n6hhp6l6f8g6g4p266k8f5pkqcjnbn1i@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
>>>
>>> https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
>>> What's Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
>>> Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with
>>> consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
>>> Here's how they work.
>>
>>In a 100 kW/400 V charging station, the current is 250 A. Assuming 6
>>A/mm**2 to keep the charging cable reasonable cold, two 80 mm**2 (10
>>mm diameter) conductors are required. At 800 V only two 40 mm**2
>>conductors are needed and thus easier to handle.
>>
>>Why not ho to 1500 V, still remaining within IEC Low Voltage and EU
>>Low Voltage Directive (LVD) with only 5 mm conductor diameters.
>>
>>Even faster (200-500 kW) charging stations would be available for
>>busses and trucks.
>
>Using high voltages has its drawback...
>Here, due to a fire in a HV transformer, the main EHV cables overheatsd and some fell on the
>train railway
>That caused a whole lot of infrasructure to be exposed to that EHV,
>causing fires all along the train track (guess its their control systems).
> in Dutch, but see the pictures:
> https://flevopost.nl/dronten/Brand-in-onderstation-aan-Olsterpad-veroorzaakt-grote-stroomstoring-27903754.html
>
>It not so much the voltage but the power behind it that does the harm.
>Been zapped many times by 25 kV from CRT color sets.
>But 230 V with some amps will kill you.
>Rain at a charging station, things like that
>
>

A gasoline pump nozzle is about 4 megawatts equivalent.

That's 400 volts at 10,000 amps.

On Sat, 03 Sep 2022 17:38:32 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On a sunny day (Sat, 03 Sep 2022 17:11:44 +0300) it happened
>upsidedown@downunder.com wrote in
><t6n6hhp6l6f8g6g4p266k8f5pkqcjnbn1i@4ax.com>:
>
>>On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
>><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
>>>
>>> https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
>>> What's Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
>>> Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with
>>> consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
>>> Here's how they work.
>>
>>In a 100 kW/400 V charging station, the current is 250 A. Assuming 6
>>A/mm**2 to keep the charging cable reasonable cold, two 80 mm**2 (10
>>mm diameter) conductors are required. At 800 V only two 40 mm**2
>>conductors are needed and thus easier to handle.
>>
>>Why not ho to 1500 V, still remaining within IEC Low Voltage and EU
>>Low Voltage Directive (LVD) with only 5 mm conductor diameters.
>>
>>Even faster (200-500 kW) charging stations would be available for
>>busses and trucks.
>
>Using high voltages has its drawback...
>Here, due to a fire in a HV transformer, the main EHV cables overheatsd and some fell on the
>train railway
>That caused a whole lot of infrasructure to be exposed to that EHV,
>causing fires all along the train track (guess its their control systems).
> in Dutch, but see the pictures:
> https://flevopost.nl/dronten/Brand-in-onderstation-aan-Olsterpad-veroorzaakt-grote-stroomstoring-27903754.html
>
>It not so much the voltage but the power behind it that does the harm.
>Been zapped many times by 25 kV from CRT color sets.
>But 230 V with some amps will kill you.
>Rain at a charging station, things like that
>

Google can translate whole web pages. Enter the following into
Chrome:

..<https://flevopost-nl.translate.goog/dronten/Brand-in-onderstation-aan-Olsterpad-veroorzaakt-grote-stroomstoring-27903754.html?_x_tr_sl=nl&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en>

Joe Gwinn

On Thursday, 1 September 2022 at 04:24:48 UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> ...
> While only a few have a BEV, even in California, pretty much everyone has a hot water heater. I bet they could benefit from better efficiency from those. Maybe they need to run off 480VAC?
....

A large proportion of California homes use gas for water heating. When electric power is used 240V is generally used. 480V wouldn't give any measurable improvement assuming the usual rules for sizing the wiring.

As of 2023 it will be a requirement to use a heat-pump water heater. They can give about a three times improvement in efficiency.

kw

On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 12:46:19 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 16:14:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
> <da72c08f-1d06-46e1...@googlegroups.com>:
> >On Thursday, September 1, 2022 at 9:28:12 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> >> On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 04:24:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
> >>
> ><gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
> >> <e0350540-99d8-4ebc...@googlegroups.com>:
> >> >On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 2:09:29 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> >> >> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 10:51:03 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
> >>
> >>> > On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
> >> >> > <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >> > >Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
> >>
> >>>
> >> >> > What's Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
> >> >> > > Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range
> >and
> >> >charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed
> >>
> >>the rollout of EVs.
> >> >> > > Here's how they work.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >Circuits!! Chips!!!
> >> >> > >been so long....
> >> >> > Fun:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > https://www.mystateline.com/news/national/california-asks-residents-not-to-charge-electric-vehicles-days-after-announcing-gas-car-ban/
> >>
> >>>
> >> >"the American Public Power Association said, and limit energy usage during
> >>
> >>4 p.m. and p.m."
> >> >>
> >> >> Fine. I only charge in a.m.
> >> >
> >> >I don't know why people are getting wigged out by BEVs. Every BEV I am aware
> >>
> >>of has a timer to allow charging only at all peak times. Many people have
> >>
> >>ToU billing, which means they will charge at night or during other times
> >>
> >>of excess capacity. Some BEV owners are not aware of peak power issues, but
> >>
> >>then many people have no timing control on their dishwasher or water heater,
> >>
> >>which will use more power than charging a BEV, and right at peak time!
> >>
> >>
> >> >While
> >> >only a few have a BEV, even in California, pretty much everyone has a
> >> >hot water heater. I bet they could benefit from better efficiency from those.
> >>
> >> Maybe they need to run off 480VAC?
> >> You still do not see the high voltage issue
> >> In a hot water heater the load is purely resistive and all electricity is
> >converted to heat the water
> >> no matter how high the voltage,
> >> but the power line losses are bigger at 120 V than at 480 V or 230 V as we
> >have here.
> >
> >Sorry, you have lost me on this one. The power line losses depend on the wiring
> >as well as the current. That's why we run water heaters on 240V. Actually,
> >the line loss is a limiting factor, not something that we try to minimize.
> > It's always low enough that there's little economic reason to worry
> >about the losses. But the wires heat up and can cause problems. So we set
> >a limit and use an appropriate size wire. At higher voltages smaller wire
> >could be used, but it has reached the point of "who cares".
> Sure,depends on the wire diameter,
> many things from China come with a 110 V to 230 V spec, and some extra
> adaptor to US mains sockets...
> So for same wire dimensions more losses when at 110 V.
> The water heater is a bit different case.

Yeah, you still aren't grasping that no one cares about the small wire losses. NO ONE CARES because it is not significant in the scheme of operation.

> >That's what it has in common with running a BEV motor off 400V batteries. It's
> >a level of performance called, "good enough". No point in trying to guild
> >the lily. The focus is on extending range in significant ways. Turning
> >the charging world on its head is good enough reason to stick with 400V.
> Just learned a new expression, according to the all-knowing (?) google
> it is spelled "gild the lily' but anyways, got the point.
>
> Well, as (IIRC) the article mentioned, more cars charging at the same spot
> makes things a bit easier with lower currents..

Not sure what you are saying with that.

> I do think very high voltages have their own problem, 800 V and moisture (for example rain)
> at a charging point needs special safety measures to prevent fire and electrocution...
> Inductive chargers that you just park above? May melt things too at high power.

You don't think they can manage that? From what I've read, they are very efficient, more so than the cable it replaces, in fact.

> There is still work on hydrogen cars gong on, but Hindenburg comes to mind.
> My idea of every car an RTG would work, but DIY tinkerers would drill holes in those
> not even mentioning collisions.

Hydrogen has its problems, but I haven't heard any references to Hindenburg until now.

> That leaves wind powered cars !!!
> After all Columbus went all the way to 'merrica with wind power!

It has been proven that a wind powered car can sail upwind, so the world is your oyster it would seem. As long as you have wind. So you many need very tall cars.

--

Rick C.

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On Thursday, 1 September 2022 at 04:30:11 UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
....
> > Those small motors that only run occasionaly have no signicifant impact on cell balances.
> You don't know that. The real point is, it would create a consistent imbalance in the cell usage as well as greatly complicate the wiring in the car, running power from two different sources. The main battery runs the motor and a converter to provide power to keep the 12V system working. Then the entire rest of the car runs off that.

The HVAC system runs directly off the tract battery.

> > So use a 48 V motor on 12 cells or whwtever, you can spread differrnt things
> > over the whole battery pack.. each with a fuse.
> Years ago, there was a big push to up the standard voltage on cars to 48 or 56 volts (don't recall the exact number). It never happened.
....

It was actually 42V (3 x 14v - the 12V system is actually about 14v) that was being promoted 15 years ago or so.

Some current cars do use 48V for relatively high power components such as active suspension, air conditioning and stop-start systems but as you say it is not at all as pervasive as being hyped.

kw

On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 12:52:49 AM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 16:17:38 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
> <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
> <8f107716-7597-473b...@googlegroups.com>:
> >Yes, and I'm sure there are many ways to provide microscopic improvements in
> >efficiency. This is not one any carmaker will use. Maybe in India, because
> >it also is cheaper... maybe.
> >Wiring is not a one time issue. You have to pay to drive it around. It may
> >not be a lot, but neither is the efficiency improvements from tapping the
> >batteries directly, and they will require a lot of extra work elsewhere. It's
> >one of those things that sound good on paper.
> I dunno
> take headlights
> Normal car headlights do not run on a stabilized power supply.
>
> Spread those over a few cells, use 12 V headlights over 3 or 4 cells (whatever battery chemistry is used)
> Power MOSFETs and optocouplers can switch on individual cell groups.
> That is already some power, heating or airco maybe an other one.
> All those switcher losses gone.
> Sell as super-green!!

I'm talking about the work required to keep the cells balanced. This is a bad idea, unless you want to add switches to move the loads around the battery pack. Very much overkill. Much easier to just use a down converter. In fact, having a good 12V system is so important, they add a 12V battery.

--

Rick C.

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On Friday, September 2, 2022 at 10:19:24 AM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Sep 2022 13:23:46 GMT, Jan Panteltje
> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On a sunny day (Thu, 1 Sep 2022 04:24:43 -0700 (PDT)) it happened Ricky
> ><gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
> ><e0350540-99d8-4ebc...@googlegroups.com>:
> >
> >>On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 2:09:29 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, August 31, 2022 at 10:51:03 AM UTC-7, John Larkin wrote:
> >>> > On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
> >>> > <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>> > >Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
> >>> > >
> >>> > > https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
> >>>
> >>> > What's Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
> >>> > > Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and
> >>charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed
> >>the rollout of EVs.
> >>> > > Here's how they work.
> >>> > >
> >>> > >Circuits!! Chips!!!
> >>> > >been so long....
> >>> > Fun:
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > https://www.mystateline.com/news/national/california-asks-residents-not-to-charge-electric-vehicles-days-after-announcing-gas-car-ban/
> >>>
> >>"the American Public Power Association said, and limit energy usage during
> >>4 p.m. and p.m."
> >>>
> >>> Fine. I only charge in a.m.
> >>
> >>I don't know why people are getting wigged out by BEVs. Every BEV I am aware
> >>of has a timer to allow charging only at all peak times. Many people have
> >>ToU billing, which means they will charge at night or during other times
> >>of excess capacity. Some BEV owners are not aware of peak power issues, but
> >>then many people have no timing control on their dishwasher or water heater,
> >>which will use more power than charging a BEV, and right at peak time!
> >>
> >>While
> >>only a few have a BEV, even in California, pretty much everyone has a
> >>hot water heater. I bet they could benefit from better efficiency from those.
> >> Maybe they need to run off 480VAC?
> >
> >You still do not see the high voltage issue
> >In a hot water heater the load is purely resistive and all electricity is converted to heat the water
> >no matter how high the voltage,
> >but the power line losses are bigger at 120 V than at 480 V or 230 V as we have here.
> >
> Did Ricky actually suggest that resistive heaters are more efficient
> at higher voltages? Like the 800 volt motors? Would three phase 480
> volts be three times as efficient? Hilarious.

Perhaps if you learned to read you would understand the sarcasm.

But Larkin was injured by something I said a long time ago, and has been looking for a dig ever since. He has a good grasp of some parts of electronics, but otherwise is a very immature and little person.

--

Rick C.

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On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 10:11:54 AM UTC-4, upsid...@downunder.com wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
> <pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
> > https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
> > What's Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
> > Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
> > Here's how they work.
> In a 100 kW/400 V charging station, the current is 250 A. Assuming 6
> A/mm**2 to keep the charging cable reasonable cold, two 80 mm**2 (10
> mm diameter) conductors are required. At 800 V only two 40 mm**2
> conductors are needed and thus easier to handle.
>
> Why not ho to 1500 V, still remaining within IEC Low Voltage and EU
> Low Voltage Directive (LVD) with only 5 mm conductor diameters.
>
> Even faster (200-500 kW) charging stations would be available for
> busses and trucks.

There are 250 and 350 kW charging stations now.

The Tesla semi and other electric big rigs will need much larger power level. They may well be a much higher voltage, except I believe they are using the same motors as the model 3. So probably they will just use multiple cables. I believe that's what they do now. Someone showed a picture of an "octopus" cable for the Tesla semi.

--

Rick C.

++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 1:43:10 PM UTC-4, Jan Panteltje wrote:
> On a sunny day (Sat, 03 Sep 2022 17:11:44 +0300) it happened
> upsid...@downunder.com wrote in
> <t6n6hhp6l6f8g6g4p...@4ax.com>:
> >On Wed, 31 Aug 2022 08:12:40 GMT, Jan Panteltje
> ><pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >>Bit of electronics for a change, 800V automobile systems cicuits
> >>
> >> https://www.electronicdesign.com/markets/automotive/article/21249715/power-integrations-whats-driving-evs-to-higher-battery-voltages
> >> What's Driving EVs to Higher Battery Voltages?
> >> Electric-vehicle makers are turning to 800-V systems to solve range and charging time issues that have created barriers with
> >> consumers and slowed the rollout of EVs.
> >> Here's how they work.
> >
> >In a 100 kW/400 V charging station, the current is 250 A. Assuming 6
> >A/mm**2 to keep the charging cable reasonable cold, two 80 mm**2 (10
> >mm diameter) conductors are required. At 800 V only two 40 mm**2
> >conductors are needed and thus easier to handle.
> >
> >Why not ho to 1500 V, still remaining within IEC Low Voltage and EU
> >Low Voltage Directive (LVD) with only 5 mm conductor diameters.
> >
> >Even faster (200-500 kW) charging stations would be available for
> >busses and trucks.
> Using high voltages has its drawback...
> Here, due to a fire in a HV transformer, the main EHV cables overheatsd and some fell on the
> train railway
> That caused a whole lot of infrasructure to be exposed to that EHV,
> causing fires all along the train track (guess its their control systems).
> in Dutch, but see the pictures:
> https://flevopost.nl/dronten/Brand-in-onderstation-aan-Olsterpad-veroorzaakt-grote-stroomstoring-27903754.html
>
> It not so much the voltage but the power behind it that does the harm.
> Been zapped many times by 25 kV from CRT color sets.
> But 230 V with some amps will kill you.
> Rain at a charging station, things like that

Amps are not needed to kill you. The heart can be stopped by a few mA.

--

Rick C.

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On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 6:47:18 PM UTC-4, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> On Thursday, 1 September 2022 at 04:24:48 UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > ...
> > While only a few have a BEV, even in California, pretty much everyone has a hot water heater. I bet they could benefit from better efficiency from those. Maybe they need to run off 480VAC?
> ...
>
> A large proportion of California homes use gas for water heating. When electric power is used 240V is generally used. 480V wouldn't give any measurable improvement assuming the usual rules for sizing the wiring.
>
> As of 2023 it will be a requirement to use a heat-pump water heater. They can give about a three times improvement in efficiency.

If a hot water heat pump is pulling heat from a heated space, don't you have to pay to reheat that space? Draw hot water, which often goes down the drain, and the furnace has to come on to warm up the house. That's an improvement?

--

Rick C.

---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Thursday, 1 September 2022 at 06:29:02 UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
....
> >> >>Did not see a single popup in Chromium on my Linux on a Pi4 8 GB.
> >> >>
> >> >>>Motor losses reduced by a factor of 4 at 800 volts, and using smaller

No it doesn't.

There is nothing intrinsically better running the motor at 800v vs 400V.

If the volume of copper in the windings is the same for the two voltages the copper losses are identical.

You can imagine having the 800v winding split into 2 halves.

If you run them in series it takes 800V with a certain current density and resistive loss.

If the two halves are put in parallel it would take half the voltage but twice the current. The losses are identical.

The improvements can be in the external circuitry and wiring.

If the active devices can be made with improved figure of merit in breakdown voltage vs on-resistance there is an advantage for higher voltage. Large band-gap devices such as Silicon carbide have an advantage here.

Wiring can get improvements at higher voltage as insulation tends to be lighter, cheaper and smaller than copper so going to a higher voltage can help..

With modern EVs the active devices IIGBT typically) in the motor driver were first available with breakdown voltages of the order of 1000V and so were only good for system voltage about half of that - 400V tended to be used. With SIC that has increased so 800V (that can go up to ~950V when fully charged) are practical.

There is a limit to the usefulness of increasing the system voltage as some switching losses increase with voltage.

> >>
> >>>>motors at 800 volts, is absurd.

For small motors such as window winders, yes
....
> A car is only a small box, and by using the cells directly you do not get any voltage converter efficiency losses.
> Wiring is a one time issue.

Not really as weight and space are important and can influence efficiency throughout the cars life.

kw

On Thursday, 1 September 2022 at 21:52:49 UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
....
> take headlights
> Normal car headlights do not run on a stabilized power supply.

Modern car headlights tend to be LED and so do run on a regulated supply as well as dramatically reducing power consumption.

kw

On Saturday, 3 September 2022 at 16:08:38 UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
....
> > As of 2023 it will be a requirement to use a heat-pump water heater. They can give about a three times improvement in efficiency.
> If a hot water heat pump is pulling heat from a heated space, don't you have to pay to reheat that space? Draw hot water, which often goes down the drain, and the furnace has to come on to warm up the house. That's an improvement?

The water heaters in California are typically in an unheated space so it is not an problem, but that would be an issue if it wasn't.

A friend remodeled his house and put in a heat-pump water heater and he did have problems with the basement getting too cold. It was solved by improving the ventilation.

kw

On a sunny day (Sat, 3 Sep 2022 16:15:27 -0700 (PDT)) it happened
"ke...@kjwdesigns.com" <keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote in
<c603e714-ac6a-4baf-b851-3e837a67ef41n@googlegroups.com>:

>On Thursday, 1 September 2022 at 06:29:02 UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>...
>> >> >>Did not see a single popup in Chromium on my Linux on a Pi4 8 GB.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>Motor losses reduced by a factor of 4 at 800 volts, and using smaller
>
>No
>it doesn't.
>
>There is nothing intrinsically better running the motor at 800v vs 400V.
>
>If the volume of copper in the windings is the same for the two voltages the
>copper losses are identical.
>
>You can imagine having the 800v winding split into 2 halves.
>
>If you run them in series it takes 800V with a certain current density and resistive
>loss.
>
>If the two halves are put in parallel it would take half the voltage but twice
>the current. The losses are identical.
>
>The improvements can be in the external circuitry and wiring.
>
>If the active devices can be made with improved figure of merit in breakdown
>voltage vs on-resistance there is an advantage for higher voltage. Large band-gap
>devices such as Silicon carbide have an advantage here.
>
>Wiring can get improvements at higher voltage as insulation tends to be lighter,
>cheaper and smaller than copper so going to a higher voltage can help.
>
>With
>modern EVs the active devices IIGBT typically) in the motor driver were
>first available with breakdown voltages of the order of 1000V and so were
>only good for system voltage about half of that - 400V tended to be used. With
>SIC that has increased so 800V (that can go up to ~950V when fully charged)
>are practical.
>
>There is a limit to the usefulness of increasing the system voltage as some
>switching losses increase with voltage.
>
>> >>
>> >>>>motors at 800 volts, is absurd.
>
>For small motors such as window winders, yes
>...
>> A car is only a small box, and by using the cells directly you do not get
>any voltage converter efficiency losses.
>> Wiring is a one time issue.
>
>Not really as weight and space are important and can influence efficiency throughout
>the cars life.
>
>kw

The question now is when we get motors with high temperature super-conducting windings
and zero volts accoss the windings.
Very cold weather starts would be better :-)
Zero volt batteries needed!
Only a small normal battery needed for a bit of cooling....
fishsicks

On Sat, 3 Sep 2022 16:15:27 -0700 (PDT), "ke...@kjwdesigns.com"
<keith@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, 1 September 2022 at 06:29:02 UTC-7, Jan Panteltje wrote:
>...
>> >> >>Did not see a single popup in Chromium on my Linux on a Pi4 8 GB.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>Motor losses reduced by a factor of 4 at 800 volts, and using smaller
>
>No it doesn't.
>
>There is nothing intrinsically better running the motor at 800v vs 400V.
>
>If the volume of copper in the windings is the same for the two voltages the copper losses are identical.
>
>You can imagine having the 800v winding split into 2 halves.
>
>If you run them in series it takes 800V with a certain current density and resistive loss.
>
>If the two halves are put in parallel it would take half the voltage but twice the current. The losses are identical.
>
>The improvements can be in the external circuitry and wiring.
>
>If the active devices can be made with improved figure of merit in breakdown voltage vs on-resistance there is an advantage for higher voltage. Large band-gap devices such as Silicon carbide have an advantage here.
>
>Wiring can get improvements at higher voltage as insulation tends to be lighter, cheaper and smaller than copper so going to a higher voltage can help.
>
>With modern EVs the active devices IIGBT typically) in the motor driver were first available with breakdown voltages of the order of 1000V and so were only good for system voltage about half of that - 400V tended to be used. With SIC that has increased so 800V (that can go up to ~950V when fully charged) are practical.
>
>There is a limit to the usefulness of increasing the system voltage as some switching losses increase with voltage.
>
>> >>
>> >>>>motors at 800 volts, is absurd.
>
>For small motors such as window winders, yes
>...
>> A car is only a small box, and by using the cells directly you do not get any voltage converter efficiency losses.
>> Wiring is a one time issue.
>
>Not really as weight and space are important and can influence efficiency throughout the cars life.
>
>kw

High voltage needs thick insulation on the wire, and skinny wire
windings lose window area to insulation more than fat wires. And
insulation doesn't conduct heat as well as copper. Triple whammy.

On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 4:15:31 PM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
....
> With modern EVs the active devices IIGBT typically) in the motor driver were first available with breakdown voltages of the order of 1000V and so were only good for system voltage about half of that - 400V tended to be used.. With SIC that has increased so 800V (that can go up to ~950V when fully charged) are practical.

If that's the case, we should go with 1200V. These IGBTs are amazing with 1200V 40A 500W (huge heat sink) in TO-257.

https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/power/igbt/igbt-discretes/ikq40n120ch3/

On Sunday, September 4, 2022 at 8:45:52 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Saturday, September 3, 2022 at 4:15:31 PM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> ...
> > With modern EVs the active devices IIGBT typically) in the motor driver were first available with breakdown voltages of the order of 1000V and so were only good for system voltage about half of that - 400V tended to be used.

I didn't read this carefully. But why half system voltage?

> With SIC that has increased so 800V (that can go up to ~950V when fully charged) are practical.
> If that's the case, we should go with 1200V. These IGBTs are amazing with 1200V 40A 500W (huge heat sink) in TO-257.
>
> https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/power/igbt/igbt-discretes/ikq40n120ch3/

1600V 30A IGBT:
https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/power/igbt/igbt-discretes/ihw30n160r5/