Very informative article about Xi by Cai Xia.

Cai Xia is a Chinese dissident and scholar of political theory. She has taught high-ranking members and officials of the Chinese Communist Party, including leading provincial and municipal administrators and cabinet-level ministers, and is a retired professor of the CCP Central Party School.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cai_Xia

Seems Xi is delusional about his infallibility- what a mess that place is.

This is not a very reassuring situation in which quite a lot of global power is being wielded by autocratic lunatics.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/china/xi-jinping-china-weakness-hubris-paranoia-threaten-future

On 9/7/2022 6:05 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> Very informative article about Xi by Cai Xia.
>
> Cai Xia is a Chinese dissident and scholar of political theory. She has
> taught high-ranking members and officials of the Chinese Communist Party,
> including leading provincial and municipal administrators and cabinet-level
> ministers, and is a retired professor of the CCP Central Party School.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cai_Xia
>
> Seems Xi is delusional about his infallibility- what a mess that place is.
>
> This is not a very reassuring situation in which quite a lot of global power
> is being wielded by autocratic lunatics.
>
> https://www.foreignaffairs.com/china/xi-jinping-china-weakness-hubris-paranoia-threaten-future

Thanks, this was an interesting read (though no way to sort out how much is
conjecture, fact, opinion, etc.).

Xi suffers from the same problem as Putin -- no one willing to tell him the
truth (or, at least, a competing opinion/viewpoint).

As re: (zero) COVID... you gotta wonder what other strategies he could
adopt (given that their vaccine seems to be of dubious value?) in a
country with a large, mobile population and lots of density (in places).
If the whole of the US was like NYC, I suspect our outcome would be
very different!

On Friday, September 9, 2022 at 5:23:02 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/7/2022 6:05 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > Very informative article about Xi by Cai Xia.
> >
> > Cai Xia is a Chinese dissident and scholar of political theory. She has
> > taught high-ranking members and officials of the Chinese Communist Party,
> > including leading provincial and municipal administrators and cabinet-level
> > ministers, and is a retired professor of the CCP Central Party School.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cai_Xia
> >
> > Seems Xi is delusional about his infallibility- what a mess that place is.
> >
> > This is not a very reassuring situation in which quite a lot of global power
> > is being wielded by autocratic lunatics.
> >
> > https://www.foreignaffairs.com/china/xi-jinping-china-weakness-hubris-paranoia-threaten-future
> Thanks, this was an interesting read (though no way to sort out how much is
> conjecture, fact, opinion, etc.).
>
> Xi suffers from the same problem as Putin -- no one willing to tell him the
> truth (or, at least, a competing opinion/viewpoint).

The personality cult is the main giveaway there's a problem. As pointed out by the author, unlike previous personality cult figures there, Xi doesn't have anything he can call an accomplishment by way of contributing to Chinese society. He's basically a career backroom political maneuverer leveraging as much of his father's influence as he could. When it comes to looking at anything he's actually done in lesser administrative positions, there's nothing notable.

>
> As re: (zero) COVID... you gotta wonder what other strategies he could
> adopt (given that their vaccine seems to be of dubious value?) in a
> country with a large, mobile population and lots of density (in places).
> If the whole of the US was like NYC, I suspect our outcome would be
> very different!

Actually their vaccine is doing pretty well The efficacy numbers are 10-15 points higher than the initial U.S FDA approval goal/ requirement of 50%. This source is a bit technical but reliable information:
https://www.precisionvaccinations.com/vaccines/coronavac-covid-19-vaccine-sinovac

They don't mention cost but it has to be cheap. Last I checked Pfizer was charging $65/dose, Moderna $35/dose to U.S. government very large quantity buys- I have no idea what it is now- way more or way less? I'm guessing the Sinovac is just single digit $.

On 9/9/2022 5:27 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Friday, September 9, 2022 at 5:23:02 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:

>> Xi suffers from the same problem as Putin -- no one willing to tell him
>> the truth (or, at least, a competing opinion/viewpoint).
>
> The personality cult is the main giveaway there's a problem.

I think it's insulting for an individual to "draw" sycophants!
It clearly states that they think you're a sucker (for flattery).
Sort of like movie stars always patting each other on the back
(lest they lose some future 'gig'). You don't REALLY think they
think of you in such a flattering way, do you?

> As pointed out
> by the author, unlike previous personality cult figures there, Xi doesn't
> have anything he can call an accomplishment by way of contributing to
> Chinese society. He's basically a career backroom political maneuverer
> leveraging as much of his father's influence as he could. When it comes to
> looking at anything he's actually done in lesser administrative positions,
> there's nothing notable.

Doesn't matter. There are sycophants clinging to his coat-tails
(an indication of their own lack-of-worth) who will continue to
do so for as long as they can.

Telling the emperor that he has no clothes isn't a good career move!

>> As re: (zero) COVID... you gotta wonder what other strategies he could
>> adopt (given that their vaccine seems to be of dubious value?) in a
>> country with a large, mobile population and lots of density (in places).
>> If the whole of the US was like NYC, I suspect our outcome would be very
>> different!
>
> Actually their vaccine is doing pretty well The efficacy numbers are 10-15
> points higher than the initial U.S FDA approval goal/ requirement of 50%.

But that was the initial target. Figures now suggest a greater level of
protection. Are their lockdowns (unlike our "imagined" lockdowns) just
an overreaction? Or, are they seeing widespread illness/death/strain
on their systems?

> This source is a bit technical but reliable information:
> https://www.precisionvaccinations.com/vaccines/coronavac-covid-19-vaccine-sinovac
>
> They don't mention cost but it has to be cheap. Last I checked Pfizer was
> charging $65/dose, Moderna $35/dose to U.S. government very large quantity
> buys- I have no idea what it is now- way more or way less? I'm guessing the
> Sinovac is just single digit $.

I suspect Pfizer/Moderna have baked a hefty premium into their pricing.
Recall, they were *enticed* (not COMMANDED, like the chinese) to solve
the problem.

On 09/10/2022 12:01 AM, Don Y wrote:
> I suspect Pfizer/Moderna have baked a hefty premium into their pricing.
> Recall, they were *enticed* (not COMMANDED, like the chinese) to solve
> the problem.

Pfizer needed a new cash cow after their Viagra patent expired. I find
Moderna's suit alleging Pfizer infringed on their patents amusing. No
honor among thieves, I guess.

On 9/10/2022 9:15 AM, rbowman wrote:
> On 09/10/2022 12:01 AM, Don Y wrote:
>> I suspect Pfizer/Moderna have baked a hefty premium into their pricing.
>> Recall, they were *enticed* (not COMMANDED, like the chinese) to solve
>> the problem.
>
> Pfizer needed a new cash cow after their Viagra patent expired. I find
> Moderna's suit alleging Pfizer infringed on their patents amusing. No honor
> among thieves, I guess.

I'm surprised they didn't reformulate it with some memory enhancing
drug (for altzheimer's pts) so you'd remember her name, the next
morning! :>

On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 2:01:28 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/9/2022 5:27 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Friday, September 9, 2022 at 5:23:02 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>
> >> Xi suffers from the same problem as Putin -- no one willing to tell him
> >> the truth (or, at least, a competing opinion/viewpoint).
> >
> > The personality cult is the main giveaway there's a problem.
> I think it's insulting for an individual to "draw" sycophants!
> It clearly states that they think you're a sucker (for flattery).
> Sort of like movie stars always patting each other on the back
> (lest they lose some future 'gig'). You don't REALLY think they
> think of you in such a flattering way, do you?
> > As pointed out
> > by the author, unlike previous personality cult figures there, Xi doesn't
> > have anything he can call an accomplishment by way of contributing to
> > Chinese society. He's basically a career backroom political maneuverer
> > leveraging as much of his father's influence as he could. When it comes to
> > looking at anything he's actually done in lesser administrative positions,
> > there's nothing notable.
> Doesn't matter. There are sycophants clinging to his coat-tails
> (an indication of their own lack-of-worth) who will continue to
> do so for as long as they can.
>
> Telling the emperor that he has no clothes isn't a good career move!
> >> As re: (zero) COVID... you gotta wonder what other strategies he could
> >> adopt (given that their vaccine seems to be of dubious value?) in a
> >> country with a large, mobile population and lots of density (in places).
> >> If the whole of the US was like NYC, I suspect our outcome would be very
> >> different!
> >
> > Actually their vaccine is doing pretty well The efficacy numbers are 10-15
> > points higher than the initial U.S FDA approval goal/ requirement of 50%.
> But that was the initial target. Figures now suggest a greater level of
> protection. Are their lockdowns (unlike our "imagined" lockdowns) just
> an overreaction? Or, are they seeing widespread illness/death/strain
> on their systems?

The lockdowns are by Xinping fiat, they're not based on science of any kind..

The 50% number is for complete neutralization and prevention of infection. They then "guess" from experience that the remaining 50% are fairly well enough protected to have a mild case of disease, and a really small percentage remain who end up dying regardless of what anybody does.

If you look at the various efficacy studies, they're all conducted within about 6 months of vaccination. They're not testing a year out or so.

The long covid disease was a surprise, but the percentage affected is acceptable to the people who look at the bigger picture

https://lc19.org/.

> > This source is a bit technical but reliable information:
> > https://www.precisionvaccinations.com/vaccines/coronavac-covid-19-vaccine-sinovac
> >
> > They don't mention cost but it has to be cheap. Last I checked Pfizer was
> > charging $65/dose, Moderna $35/dose to U.S. government very large quantity
> > buys- I have no idea what it is now- way more or way less? I'm guessing the
> > Sinovac is just single digit $.
> I suspect Pfizer/Moderna have baked a hefty premium into their pricing.
> Recall, they were *enticed* (not COMMANDED, like the chinese) to solve
> the problem.

The Pfizer numbers in for 2021 are $37B sales of the vaccine, Comirnaty.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/253788/pfizers-top-products-based-on-revenues/

Chinese program didn't require any effort at all by way of research. They used a very straightforward approach of isolating and then growing the virus in chicken eggs or similar.

On 09/10/2022 11:14 AM, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 9:15 AM, rbowman wrote:
>> On 09/10/2022 12:01 AM, Don Y wrote:
>>> I suspect Pfizer/Moderna have baked a hefty premium into their pricing.
>>> Recall, they were *enticed* (not COMMANDED, like the chinese) to solve
>>> the problem.
>>
>> Pfizer needed a new cash cow after their Viagra patent expired. I find
>> Moderna's suit alleging Pfizer infringed on their patents amusing. No
>> honor among thieves, I guess.
>
> I'm surprised they didn't reformulate it with some memory enhancing
> drug (for altzheimer's pts) so you'd remember her name, the next
> morning! :>

They're all named Darlin'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sco_eBvXGTQ

On 9/10/2022 1:05 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>> Actually their vaccine is doing pretty well The efficacy numbers are
>>> 10-15 points higher than the initial U.S FDA approval goal/ requirement
>>> of 50%.
>> But that was the initial target. Figures now suggest a greater level of
>> protection. Are their lockdowns (unlike our "imagined" lockdowns) just an
>> overreaction? Or, are they seeing widespread illness/death/strain on their
>> systems?
>
> The lockdowns are by Xinping fiat, they're not based on science of any
> kind.

But, presumably, he saw something (even a delusion) that led him to
believe THIS was the answer. Otherwise, why not declare "everyone
gets a free lollipop!" by edict?

> The 50% number is for complete neutralization and prevention of infection.
> They then "guess" from experience that the remaining 50% are fairly well
> enough protected to have a mild case of disease, and a really small
> percentage remain who end up dying regardless of what anybody does.
>
> If you look at the various efficacy studies, they're all conducted within
> about 6 months of vaccination. They're not testing a year out or so.

Yes, I'm sure they have decided that there is no long-term protection
from any countermeasure. They already know that various other vaccines
(as well as "acquired immunity") have limited periods of effectivity
and, other than as an intellectual experiment, sorting out the long
term protection of something in the same ballpark as influenza is
probably a poor use of resources during an emergency.

> The long covid disease was a surprise, but the percentage affected is
> acceptable to the people who look at the bigger picture

That will always be the case. The Military expects civilian casualties,
friendly fire casualties, etc. You just bake those numbers into the
solution and live with it.

Retailers expect a certain percentage of loss from theft, returned
merchandise, etc. You could search every customer (amazon apparently
searches employees at shift-end) but how much will you really
recover and what amount of "bad will" results?

>> I suspect Pfizer/Moderna have baked a hefty premium into their pricing.
>> Recall, they were *enticed* (not COMMANDED, like the chinese) to solve the
>> problem.
>
> The Pfizer numbers in for 2021 are $37B sales of the vaccine, Comirnaty.
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/253788/pfizers-top-products-based-on-revenues/
>
> Chinese program didn't require any effort at all by way of research. They
> used a very straightforward approach of isolating and then growing the virus
> in chicken eggs or similar.

But isn't that how J&J AZ did it (and weren't there some nasty side effects)?

[Crap! My server/agent appears to have shit the bed -- hundreds of OLD posts
suddenly appeared. <frown> Well, I guess that's what happens when you use
other folks' code instead of rolling your own! :< I wonder how the NNet will
react to my deleting things that it thought it had already deleted? Maybe I
should just clean the slate and start from scratch...]

On 9/10/2022 3:20 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On 09/10/2022 11:14 AM, Don Y wrote:
>> On 9/10/2022 9:15 AM, rbowman wrote:
>>> On 09/10/2022 12:01 AM, Don Y wrote:
>>>> I suspect Pfizer/Moderna have baked a hefty premium into their pricing.
>>>> Recall, they were *enticed* (not COMMANDED, like the chinese) to solve
>>>> the problem.
>>>
>>> Pfizer needed a new cash cow after their Viagra patent expired. I find
>>> Moderna's suit alleging Pfizer infringed on their patents amusing. No
>>> honor among thieves, I guess.
>>
>> I'm surprised they didn't reformulate it with some memory enhancing
>> drug (for altzheimer's pts) so you'd remember her name, the next
>> morning! :>
>
> They're all named Darlin'.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sco_eBvXGTQ

Yeah, I don't think that would fly with any of the womenfolk I've
dated -- let alone slept with! :>

On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 7:06:47 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 1:05 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >>> Actually their vaccine is doing pretty well The efficacy numbers are
> >>> 10-15 points higher than the initial U.S FDA approval goal/ requirement
> >>> of 50%.
> >> But that was the initial target. Figures now suggest a greater level of
> >> protection. Are their lockdowns (unlike our "imagined" lockdowns) just an
> >> overreaction? Or, are they seeing widespread illness/death/strain on their
> >> systems?
> >
> > The lockdowns are by Xinping fiat, they're not based on science of any
> > kind.
> But, presumably, he saw something (even a delusion) that led him to
> believe THIS was the answer. Otherwise, why not declare "everyone
> gets a free lollipop!" by edict?

Right- probably some fable from the 14th century Black Death era...

> > The 50% number is for complete neutralization and prevention of infection.
> > They then "guess" from experience that the remaining 50% are fairly well
> > enough protected to have a mild case of disease, and a really small
> > percentage remain who end up dying regardless of what anybody does.
> >
> > If you look at the various efficacy studies, they're all conducted within
> > about 6 months of vaccination. They're not testing a year out or so.
> Yes, I'm sure they have decided that there is no long-term protection
> from any countermeasure. They already know that various other vaccines
> (as well as "acquired immunity") have limited periods of effectivity
> and, other than as an intellectual experiment, sorting out the long
> term protection of something in the same ballpark as influenza is
> probably a poor use of resources during an emergency.

Virus mutation is the most common reason for vaccines losing effectiveness. Influenza is a case in point.

> > The long covid disease was a surprise, but the percentage affected is
> > acceptable to the people who look at the bigger picture
> That will always be the case. The Military expects civilian casualties,
> friendly fire casualties, etc. You just bake those numbers into the
> solution and live with it.
>
> Retailers expect a certain percentage of loss from theft, returned
> merchandise, etc. You could search every customer (amazon apparently
> searches employees at shift-end) but how much will you really
> recover and what amount of "bad will" results?
> >> I suspect Pfizer/Moderna have baked a hefty premium into their pricing..
> >> Recall, they were *enticed* (not COMMANDED, like the chinese) to solve the
> >> problem.
> >
> > The Pfizer numbers in for 2021 are $37B sales of the vaccine, Comirnaty..
> > https://www.statista.com/statistics/253788/pfizers-top-products-based-on-revenues/
> >
> > Chinese program didn't require any effort at all by way of research. They
> > used a very straightforward approach of isolating and then growing the virus
> > in chicken eggs or similar.
> But isn't that how J&J AZ did it (and weren't there some nasty side effects)?

The AZ and J&J ( and also the Russian Sputnik) vaccines are viral vector vaccines. The viral vector approach predates the mRNA approach by about 25 years, a time when the chemistry required to make mRNA vaccines work was just being discovered. The viral vector vaccines are genetically modified live virus designed to infect cells, take over the nucleus, and from there direct the synthesis of SARS-CoV-2 antigen proteins to provoke immunity. It's a much more complex technology than replicating wild strain virus in a chicken egg. They would be considered excellent vaccines in 1995, but it's 2022 now, and the mRNA vaccines have left them in the dust. They do have the advantage of being much cheaper (IIRC about $13/dose in quantity) and not requiring the extreme environmental control the mRNA vaccines require, so they're not totally worthless. IIRC they're not recommended for boost vaccination, CDC wants people who received the primary dose of J&J to be boosted by an mRNA vaccine- I think.
AZ did have some kind of really rare neurological side effect but almost always it was a latent condition just waiting for something to trigger it- a powerful vaccine will do it. There was some other oddball inflamation developing in children from one or the other vaccines, and, from the few cases I read, the children were flabby fat unhealthy looking endomorphs.

On 9/10/2022 7:00 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:

> AZ did have some kind of really rare neurological side effect but almost
> always it was a latent condition just waiting for something to trigger it- a
> powerful vaccine will do it. There was some other oddball inflamation
> developing in children from one or the other vaccines, and, from the few
> cases I read, the children were flabby fat unhealthy looking endomorphs.

Dunno. There are downsides to all "therapies". The question is one of
risk assessment -- likelihood x severity of each course of action. And,
here, the only choices were moderna or pfizer. (I think some J&J was
rushed in at some point)

Being a big fan of vaccines (haven't had the flu in any of the two? decades
in which I received vaccine), it wasn't an issue, for me. Rather, how soon
will I be *allowed* access to the vaccine.

[Second booster a couple of months ago thinking that a B variant booster would
be forthcoming and I'd not want to get it too soon in The Season -- esp as
I'd have to work in a flu shot between booster 2 and booster B.]

On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 11:38:32 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 7:00 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>
> > AZ did have some kind of really rare neurological side effect but almost
> > always it was a latent condition just waiting for something to trigger it- a
> > powerful vaccine will do it. There was some other oddball inflamation
> > developing in children from one or the other vaccines, and, from the few
> > cases I read, the children were flabby fat unhealthy looking endomorphs.
> Dunno. There are downsides to all "therapies". The question is one of
> risk assessment -- likelihood x severity of each course of action. And,
> here, the only choices were moderna or pfizer. (I think some J&J was
> rushed in at some point)
>
> Being a big fan of vaccines (haven't had the flu in any of the two? decades
> in which I received vaccine), it wasn't an issue, for me. Rather, how soon
> will I be *allowed* access to the vaccine.
>
> [Second booster a couple of months ago thinking that a B variant booster would
> be forthcoming and I'd not want to get it too soon in The Season -- esp as
> I'd have to work in a flu shot between booster 2 and booster B.]

They're available now. Check your state health department site:
https://www.cdc.gov/publichealthgateway/healthdirectories/healthdepartments.html
They're referred to as bivalent booster. You can get the booster from them or any one of the big pharmacy chains like CVS or Walgreens. Sounds like you would be better off getting it from the health department.

On Saturday, September 10, 2022 at 11:38:32 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/10/2022 7:00 PM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>
> > AZ did have some kind of really rare neurological side effect but almost
> > always it was a latent condition just waiting for something to trigger it- a
> > powerful vaccine will do it. There was some other oddball inflamation
> > developing in children from one or the other vaccines, and, from the few
> > cases I read, the children were flabby fat unhealthy looking endomorphs.
> Dunno. There are downsides to all "therapies". The question is one of
> risk assessment -- likelihood x severity of each course of action. And,
> here, the only choices were moderna or pfizer. (I think some J&J was
> rushed in at some point)
>
> Being a big fan of vaccines (haven't had the flu in any of the two? decades
> in which I received vaccine), it wasn't an issue, for me. Rather, how soon
> will I be *allowed* access to the vaccine.
>
> [Second booster a couple of months ago thinking that a B variant booster would
> be forthcoming and I'd not want to get it too soon in The Season -- esp as
> I'd have to work in a flu shot between booster 2 and booster B.]

To answer your question, you're eligible for the new booster if it's been at least 2 months since your last COVID vaccine of any kind.

On 9/11/2022 9:05 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>> [Second booster a couple of months ago thinking that a B variant booster would
>> be forthcoming and I'd not want to get it too soon in The Season -- esp as
>> I'd have to work in a flu shot between booster 2 and booster B.]
>
> They're available now. Check your state health department site:
> https://www.cdc.gov/publichealthgateway/healthdirectories/healthdepartments.html
> They're referred to as bivalent booster. You can get the booster from them or any one of the big pharmacy chains like CVS or Walgreens. Sounds like you would be better off getting it from the health department.
>

I typically wait until the last week of September for flu.
That will put a bit of time between it and the most recent
covid booster.

Then, wait until Nov/Dec for the covid B booster to
span the winter months.

Not keen on getting lots of vaccinations at the same time;
it's not inconvenient to schedule an appointment (and only
takes 2 minutes, once there) so there's little to gain
by getting multiple in one go.

I've a fair number of environmental allergies so I suspect my immune
system is already doing more work than it should; why kick it
any more than necessary?

On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 2:04:13 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/11/2022 9:05 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >> [Second booster a couple of months ago thinking that a B variant booster would
> >> be forthcoming and I'd not want to get it too soon in The Season -- esp as
> >> I'd have to work in a flu shot between booster 2 and booster B.]
> >
> > They're available now. Check your state health department site:
> > https://www.cdc.gov/publichealthgateway/healthdirectories/healthdepartments.html
> > They're referred to as bivalent booster. You can get the booster from them or any one of the big pharmacy chains like CVS or Walgreens. Sounds like you would be better off getting it from the health department.
> >
> I typically wait until the last week of September for flu.
> That will put a bit of time between it and the most recent
> covid booster.
>
> Then, wait until Nov/Dec for the covid B booster to
> span the winter months.
>
> Not keen on getting lots of vaccinations at the same time;
> it's not inconvenient to schedule an appointment (and only
> takes 2 minutes, once there) so there's little to gain
> by getting multiple in one go.
>
> I've a fair number of environmental allergies so I suspect my immune
> system is already doing more work than it should; why kick it
> any more than necessary?

If you go by the numbers, Omicron may be more transmissible than the flu- I think, but don't know for sure. Whichever is more transmissible AND the community level is HIGH, as determined by CDC- check their site-, is the one you should first be vaccinated against. Last I checked Omicron community levels are high just about everywhere, and expected to start peaking in fall/winter, sooner than flu iow. Infectious disease experts believe the community levels are under-reported because most people have such mild symptoms they don't enter the health care system in any way and are therefore undocumented/ unreported.

On 9/12/2022 3:31 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 2:04:13 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
>> On 9/11/2022 9:05 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>>>> [Second booster a couple of months ago thinking that a B variant
>>>> booster would be forthcoming and I'd not want to get it too soon in
>>>> The Season -- esp as I'd have to work in a flu shot between booster 2
>>>> and booster B.]
>>>
>>> They're available now. Check your state health department site:
>>> https://www.cdc.gov/publichealthgateway/healthdirectories/healthdepartments.html
>>>
>>>
They're referred to as bivalent booster. You can get the booster from them or
any one of the big pharmacy chains like CVS or Walgreens. Sounds like you would
be better off getting it from the health department.
>>>
>> I typically wait until the last week of September for flu. That will put a
>> bit of time between it and the most recent covid booster.
>>
>> Then, wait until Nov/Dec for the covid B booster to span the winter
>> months.
>>
>> Not keen on getting lots of vaccinations at the same time; it's not
>> inconvenient to schedule an appointment (and only takes 2 minutes, once
>> there) so there's little to gain by getting multiple in one go.
>>
>> I've a fair number of environmental allergies so I suspect my immune
>> system is already doing more work than it should; why kick it any more
>> than necessary?
>
> If you go by the numbers, Omicron may be more transmissible than the flu- I
> think, but don't know for sure. Whichever is more transmissible AND the
> community level is HIGH, as determined by CDC- check their site-, is the one
> you should first be vaccinated against.

Last flu vaccine was a year ago so it is more likely that it is
less effective than the covid vaccine from late july.

You have to also look at your behavior patterns and not just the
extent of disease in the community. E.g., we rarely are out of
the house (excepting grocery shopping -- which continues to be
double masked).

My plan is to ride the last covid booster for "a while" and take
advantage of the flu vaccine as I normally would. Then, after
a while, opt for the newest "booster B".

Thankfully, I've had no adverse reactions from any of the vaccinations
in the past 20+ years (save a few hours of soreness). So, unless there
is some remarkably different "vaccine experience", I expect each shot
to be just a few minutes' inconvenience in my normal routine.

OTOH, I know several people (double boosted) who have decided to
return to life as normal and have become infected. Most with 4 weeks
of downtime, as a result (I wouldn't want to have a *bruise* for
4 weeks, let alone something that significantly impacts my lifestyle).

And, I have to ensure I don't risk "bringing something home" that
would put SWMBO at risk. (being sick is one thing; getting someone ELSE
sick is a lot worse!)

> Last I checked Omicron community
> levels are high just about everywhere, and expected to start peaking in
> fall/winter, sooner than flu iow. Infectious disease experts believe the
> community levels are under-reported because most people have such mild
> symptoms they don't enter the health care system in any way and are
> therefore undocumented/ unreported.

I see about half of the population masked. All of the folks I know
who have "managed" to catch covid have done so after stopping masking.
Not "proof" but surely suggestive that their behaviors have resulted
in their illnesses!

[When you're "8" and you get sick, you get sympathy, "waited on",
*ice cream*, time off from school, etc. All that changes as you get
older! :> ]

On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 7:09:18 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/12/2022 3:31 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 2:04:13 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> >> On 9/11/2022 9:05 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >>>> [Second booster a couple of months ago thinking that a B variant
> >>>> booster would be forthcoming and I'd not want to get it too soon in
> >>>> The Season -- esp as I'd have to work in a flu shot between booster 2
> >>>> and booster B.]
> >>>
> >>> They're available now. Check your state health department site:
> >>> https://www.cdc.gov/publichealthgateway/healthdirectories/healthdepartments.html
> >>>
> >>>
> They're referred to as bivalent booster. You can get the booster from them or
> any one of the big pharmacy chains like CVS or Walgreens. Sounds like you would
> be better off getting it from the health department.
> >>>
> >> I typically wait until the last week of September for flu. That will put a
> >> bit of time between it and the most recent covid booster.
> >>
> >> Then, wait until Nov/Dec for the covid B booster to span the winter
> >> months.
> >>
> >> Not keen on getting lots of vaccinations at the same time; it's not
> >> inconvenient to schedule an appointment (and only takes 2 minutes, once
> >> there) so there's little to gain by getting multiple in one go.
> >>
> >> I've a fair number of environmental allergies so I suspect my immune
> >> system is already doing more work than it should; why kick it any more
> >> than necessary?
> >
> > If you go by the numbers, Omicron may be more transmissible than the flu- I
> > think, but don't know for sure. Whichever is more transmissible AND the
> > community level is HIGH, as determined by CDC- check their site-, is the one
> > you should first be vaccinated against.
> Last flu vaccine was a year ago so it is more likely that it is
> less effective than the covid vaccine from late july.
>
> You have to also look at your behavior patterns and not just the
> extent of disease in the community. E.g., we rarely are out of
> the house (excepting grocery shopping -- which continues to be
> double masked).
>
> My plan is to ride the last covid booster for "a while" and take
> advantage of the flu vaccine as I normally would. Then, after
> a while, opt for the newest "booster B".
>
> Thankfully, I've had no adverse reactions from any of the vaccinations
> in the past 20+ years (save a few hours of soreness). So, unless there
> is some remarkably different "vaccine experience", I expect each shot
> to be just a few minutes' inconvenience in my normal routine.
>
> OTOH, I know several people (double boosted) who have decided to
> return to life as normal and have become infected. Most with 4 weeks
> of downtime, as a result (I wouldn't want to have a *bruise* for
> 4 weeks, let alone something that significantly impacts my lifestyle).
>
> And, I have to ensure I don't risk "bringing something home" that
> would put SWMBO at risk. (being sick is one thing; getting someone ELSE
> sick is a lot worse!)
> > Last I checked Omicron community
> > levels are high just about everywhere, and expected to start peaking in
> > fall/winter, sooner than flu iow. Infectious disease experts believe the
> > community levels are under-reported because most people have such mild
> > symptoms they don't enter the health care system in any way and are
> > therefore undocumented/ unreported.
> I see about half of the population masked. All of the folks I know
> who have "managed" to catch covid have done so after stopping masking.
> Not "proof" but surely suggestive that their behaviors have resulted
> in their illnesses!
>
> [When you're "8" and you get sick, you get sympathy, "waited on",
> *ice cream*, time off from school, etc. All that changes as you get
> older! :> ]

Masking and taking common sense precautions are more effective than any vaccine.

On 9/12/2022 4:17 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
>> [When you're "8" and you get sick, you get sympathy, "waited on",
>> *ice cream*, time off from school, etc. All that changes as you get
>> older! :> ]
>
> Masking and taking common sense precautions are more effective than any vaccine.

With the initial vaccines behind me, I'd agree. But, I wouldn't
have wanted to rely on masking and avoidance alone! While my
outside exposure isn't much (shopping), it still represents an
"opportunity for infection".

I think the double vaccine and double booster preps the body a
bit more, in case it *does* encounter the virus. At least,
my friends in a similar state that have managed to get sick
have not had "severe" illness -- though none of them are
happy with their level of discomfort or the length of time
it's kept them "down"!

As with anything, better to avoid than live through it!

On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 8:08:15 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/12/2022 4:17 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> >> [When you're "8" and you get sick, you get sympathy, "waited on",
> >> *ice cream*, time off from school, etc. All that changes as you get
> >> older! :> ]
> >
> > Masking and taking common sense precautions are more effective than any vaccine.
> With the initial vaccines behind me, I'd agree. But, I wouldn't
> have wanted to rely on masking and avoidance alone! While my
> outside exposure isn't much (shopping), it still represents an
> "opportunity for infection".

Before Covid (BC), i had mild respiratory problems (mostly coughing) all the time. Anno Domini, i am much healthier. Have not any problem so far. Regardless of government recommendations, i mask up my nose in public most of the time. I don't cover my mouth, since i can't breath with it.

> I think the double vaccine and double booster preps the body a
> bit more, in case it *does* encounter the virus. At least,
> my friends in a similar state that have managed to get sick
> have not had "severe" illness -- though none of them are
> happy with their level of discomfort or the length of time
> it's kept them "down"!
>
> As with anything, better to avoid than live through it!

I had one shot in Feb 2020. Still not catching covid yet. I met my brother a week ago and he is now covid positive. Let see what happen in the coming week.

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 10:22:44 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:

> Before Covid (BC), i had mild respiratory problems (mostly coughing) all the time. Anno Domini, i am much healthier. Have not any problem so far.

This sounds like a misconception: coughing is not a disease, it's a
healthy RESPONSE to an irritant.

Has air quality improved lately, in your area? Maybe COVID has encouraged better
care of buildings' air filtration?

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 11:03:58 AM UTC-7, whit3rd wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 10:22:44 AM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
>
> > Before Covid (BC), i had mild respiratory problems (mostly coughing) all the time. Anno Domini, i am much healthier. Have not any problem so far.
> This sounds like a misconception: coughing is not a disease, it's a
> healthy RESPONSE to an irritant.

Well, it's still a health problem for me.

> Has air quality improved lately, in your area? Maybe COVID has encouraged better
> care of buildings' air filtration?

My brother, who is working from home, visited me in my building last week. It is very likely that he caught it in my building. I always cover my nose in and out of the building, but he didn't.

On 9/13/2022 10:22 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 8:08:15 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>> On 9/12/2022 4:17 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:

>>> Masking and taking common sense precautions are more effective than any
>>> vaccine.
>> With the initial vaccines behind me, I'd agree. But, I wouldn't have
>> wanted to rely on masking and avoidance alone! While my outside exposure
>> isn't much (shopping), it still represents an "opportunity for
>> infection".
>
> Before Covid (BC), i had mild respiratory problems (mostly coughing) all the
> time.

That *could* be related to seasonal/environmental allergies.
(one of my complaints) I notice that my sinuses sometimes
"drip" into my throat leading to an annoying cough as my
body tries to clear the accumulating crud/mucus.

Masking, while *out*, seems to help. But, I don't opt to wear
a mask around the yard, house, neighborhood, etc. -- so haven't
proven its effectiveness in terms of reducing allergens.

> Anno Domini, i am much healthier. Have not any problem so far.
> Regardless of government recommendations, i mask up my nose in public most
> of the time. I don't cover my mouth, since i can't breath with it.

I use a surgical mask with a four-layer cloth mask atop.
As recommended, it covers my mouth and nose. I typically
wear eyeglasses when "out" which cuts down on some of the
exposure via those membranes (and, more significantly,
deters my hands from finding my eyes!)

The cloth mask impedes the flow of air -- but, only when I
am undergoing some form of increased exertion. E.g., I
have discovered that I can climb a maximum of 4 (commercial)
flights of stairs without feeling the reduction in airflow.

>> I think the double vaccine and double booster preps the body a bit more,
>> in case it *does* encounter the virus. At least, my friends in a similar
>> state that have managed to get sick have not had "severe" illness --
>> though none of them are happy with their level of discomfort or the length
>> of time it's kept them "down"!
>>
>> As with anything, better to avoid than live through it!
>
> I had one shot in Feb 2020. Still not catching covid yet. I met my brother
> a week ago and he is now covid positive. Let see what happen in the coming
> week.

I rely on the vaccine to cover the case of *exposure* to the virus.
I rely on the mask to reduce the *chance* of exposure.

I suspect that a single shot (of a two-shot regimen) isn't doing much
for you, now. Your health is likely more due to avoiding exposure.

I cite friends who have been fully vaccinated and boosted who
opted to drop their "avoidance" precautions... and got sick.
The activities for which most have made this tradeoff (largely
dining/drinking "out") don't seem, to me, to be worth the
cost of the followon illness.

And, I suspect they would agree, if only privately.

I am really puzzled by this "craving" for outside activity,
human contact, etc. I've been "social" since the beginning
of the pandemic (though I cut out my volunteer activities
as that was already exposing me to a variety of pathogens).
Between shopping, visiting neighbors, phone/email contact,
etc. I spend just as much time (perhaps a bit MORE) interacting
with people than before the pandemic.

But, "eating/drinking out" was never a big part of my routine.
A different sort of "exposure", no doubt. And, likely more
prolonged (sitting at a table for 60 - 120 minutes breathing
other folks' "exhaust")

On 9/13/2022 11:11 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 11:03:58 AM UTC-7, whit3rd wrote:

>> Has air quality improved lately, in your area? Maybe COVID has encouraged
>> better care of buildings' air filtration?
>
> My brother, who is working from home, visited me in my building last week.
> It is very likely that he caught it in my building. I always cover my nose
> in and out of the building, but he didn't.

Unfortunately, you'll never *know* where/why/how he caught it.
So, no way to validate your behaviors.

I am very methodical and consistent in my practices -- masking,
hand sanitizer, avoiding contact with mucus membranes, avoiding
contact with other objects/surfaces, etc. Yet, if I caught
"something", I'd be hard pressed to identify where my
practices/defenses failed me. And, it really wouldn't matter
(unless it was evidence of a systematic failure) as the
deed is already done!

On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 8:33:35 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
> On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 9:17:18 PM UTC+10, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 7:09:18 AM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> > > On 9/12/2022 3:31 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 2:04:13 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
> > > >> On 9/11/2022 9:05 AM, Fred Bloggs wrote:
> <snip>
> > Masking and taking common sense precautions are more effective than any vaccine.
> They may be more effective at stopping you getting infected - though the vaccines aimed at the new variants may be more effective at stopping them infecting you - but the vaccine does seem to be a lot more effective at stopping you getting seriously ill once you are infected.

Kiss someone in the throes of symptomatic COVID on the lips, and you'll quickly find out how much protection from serious illness that vaccine gives you :-) You'll have a raging fever within hours.

>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Sydney