On Sunday, July 3, 2022 at 2:24:26 AM UTC, Don Y wrote:
> On 7/2/2022 4:17 PM, Rich S wrote:
> >> [If you truly understood the magnitude of the throw-away problem, you'd
> >> approach design entirely differently!]
> >
> > We drifted off original topic but this one
> > is still very relevant to me.
> > I would like to know, how should consumer
> > product -- such as those you mentioned
> > -- and its manufacturer -- be evaluated for their
> > positive aspects towards sustainability and
> > minimizing negative ecological impact. It is a
> > whole area of study unto itself.
> I think it is the nature of businesses to want for consumption.
> They need a constant revenue stream to survive. Building a "forever"
> product is one way to limit your success -- once everyone has
> purchased one, the market is exhausted!
>
> So, the first line of defense is to adjust customer expectations
> soas not to think they NEED a shiney new <whatever>. If you are
> a business -- and a stakeholder in said business -- then you
> can make an impact with policy. Do you really need to update
> all of your PC seats every time MS decides it needs a fresh
> injection of revenue? Or, apple? Is there something that
> application X can't do that you really REALLY need to do?
> Do you need it enough to warrant the OS (and hardware) upgrade
> that it might require??
>
> Is there some reason that 65 inch HD TV (i.e., the one that
> I rescued for our living room) is no longer "appropriate"
> for your conference room needs? If you are letting IT people
> make your equipment buying decisions/recommendations, perhaps
> lump IT equipment purchases into the budget *with* salaries so
> they get the message that money spent on "new toys" comes at
> a cost of "fewer raises"! It's really easy to recommend spending
> someone else's money -- esp if it gives you additional job
> security (more stuff to install/decommission/maintain!)
> > Yes, my organization does
> > happen to employ these people. But the devil
> > is in the details -- what specifically about
> > product "X" can make the most difference?
> There are lots of first-level recycling agencies. Their
> mission statements vary (ours is to divert materials
> from landfills through reuse, refurbishment or repurposing;
> resorting to "recycling" as a last resort).
>
> Recycling is incredibly labor intensive. If you had to
> pay folks to disassemble each bit of kit into:
> - sheet metal
> - plastics (discard)
> - valuable metals (clean aluminum, copper and gold)
> - circuit boards (from which metals could be reclaimed)
> - memory (which can often be reused, as is)
> - CPUs (for the gold on their pins)
> - fans (can be refurbished)
> - hardware (screws, etc. for their metal content)
> - disk drives (for the metal in their housings)
> etc. you find that it costs more for the labor than you can
> recover from the goods!
>
> [A consumer PC is "worth" about $5 if headed for the tip,
> regardless of whether there's an i7 inside or a 386; servers
> a fair bit more but largely because of the quantity and quality
> of the components]
>
> We rely on volunteer labor for this disassembly work. These
> are typically developmentally disabled "kids" (though they
> actually may be adults) under "adult" supervision. Their
> cognitive skills and manual dexterity are often compromised.
>
> So, it is easy for a mechanism (assembly structure) to be
> too complex for them to sort out. Simple, mainstream
> fasteners (phillips) of significant size and placement are
> easiest. Slotted screwdrivers are often harder to position
> in the fastener. And, often used as prybars -- which can slip
> and find their way into the flesh of a palm!
>
> If they have to resort to several different tools to
> disassemble something, you end up with mangled tools
> and frustrated workers (they were using a #0 phillips to
> remove a small screw and then continued to use it in an
> attempt to loosen a #2 screw! or, an 1/8" cabinet tip
> slotted screwdriver to loosen something considerably meatier!)
>
> Things that snap or slide together without special tools are
> best. All they have to do is be shown the proper motion
> to separate the items. Then, told which bin to place each.
> (someone has to sort through the bins after each "shift"
> to be sure stuff didn't get mixed where not intended).
>
> The downstream recyclers will get annoyed -- and significantly
> lower the price per pound they will pay us -- if things aren't
> properly sorted. A large copper heatsink with bits of mounting
> bracket still attached loses its value as it has to be further
> processed. Even as a nonprofit with only a couple of bodies
> "on staff", someone still has to pay the rent, lights,
> insurance, truck/forklift maintenance, etc.
>
> And, as prices are for BATCHES of stuff, if there are too many
> (no idea who makes that determination, nor how!) items that
> aren't "clean", then the entire batch (which is likely a
> Gaylord) is repriced at the lower rate. I.e., the value of the
> *good* work is lost in a stroke of the pen due to a few bad apples!
>
> The old 68K Macs were ideal in this sense; one screw and everything
> slid/snapped apart. But, there was a lot of plastic involved so
> that's a downside (there is NO recycle value to plastic; sheet metal
> is like $0.01/pound!)
>
> There's a perverse economy, here. Durable kit is likely harder
> to disassemble -- and, thus, recycle -- owing to the use
> of more plentiful fasteners and components. E.g., my workstations
> would have been recycled as "complete units" (at the much lower
> rate) simply because they require too much effort and "skill"
> to "decompose". So, don't buy durable kit unless you plan on giving
> it extra life! Or, rather, DO buy durable kit and PLAN on giving it
> extra life!
>
> Don't buy "toy" UPSs -- because you *won't* replace the batteries!
> Or, you will defer that activity until the batteries are hopelessly
> swollen inside the unit. A UPS is worth (recycle value) as much as
> a PC -- simply because of the weight associated with the transformer!
>
> [Pull the batteries and recycle them separately; you can expect about
> $0.20/pound for a battery whereas the UPS might be worth $0.10/pound]
>
> [[I've rescued large (2200VA) UPSs NIB! Complete with the shipping
> labels intact! Gotta wonder if anyone had to answer for that "needless"
> purchase <frown> ]]
>
> Finally, THINK about what you're going to do when an item has reached
> the end of its useful life FOR YOU. I tell people to think about how
> they are going to dispose of items BEFORE they purchase them. PCs tend to
> have extendable markets -- there is always some underprivileged kid or
> school district that could make use of 500 "used" PCs -- *if* someone
> has refurbished them and reinstalled OS/apps. But, the sheer number of
> such recycled items means even that "market" will quickly be saturated.
>
> Then, what do you do?
>
> We've sent entire dentist offices to Guatemala, SEMs to universities in
> MX, etc. They will likely extract every last bit of useful life out
> of those items. Much more aggressively than their donor corporations
> did!

Thank you Don for the elaborate details. I expected little or none,
you provided a wealth of ideas. Have you put these thoughts
and experiences into a blog? SED is not quite the right place.
I expect you have more to say ;-)
Cheers, Rich S.

On 7/3/2022 2:25 PM, Rich S wrote:
> Thank you Don for the elaborate details. I expected little or none,
> you provided a wealth of ideas.

I don't think many people actually *think* about what is required to
"recycle" something. It's as if it magically goes from a dropoff location
to "X% recycled content".

Sadly, electronic items are hard to truly recycle because the technology
is so quickly outdated. We can better recycle (refurbish) a peristaltic
pump than a computer -- mechanisms tend not to go obsolete as quickly.

> Have you put these thoughts
> and experiences into a blog? SED is not quite the right place.
> I expect you have more to say ;-)

No. It is actually very depressing when you see truckloads (semi's)
full of stuff pull in and know you'll only be able to "recover" a
small percentage of their contents.

When I've taken friends through for "tours", they are impressed
by the quantity of goods. Instead, they should be APPALLED!

And, you feel like an "enabler" -- the firm donating the items likely
thinks they are doing their part... if they truly knew how inefficient
their efforts were, you wonder if they would:
- stop trying
- try harder (including reconsidering their purchases)!

At the same time, when Ma&Pa Kettle drive in with some 20 year
old PC that they want to donate -- thinking some needy kid will
benefit from their donation... you can't tell them that it's just
so much *scrap*! :<

Look around your area. I'm sure there are some folks doing this sort
of thing (I've managed to find groups in various parts of the country).
A tour can be enlightening (depressing).

在 2022年7月4日星期一 UTC+8 06:27:22，<Don Y> 写道：
> On 7/3/2022 2:25 PM, Rich S wrote:
> > Thank you Don for the elaborate details. I expected little or none,
> > you provided a wealth of ideas.
> I don't think many people actually *think* about what is required to
> "recycle" something. It's as if it magically goes from a dropoff location
> to "X% recycled content".
>
> Sadly, electronic items are hard to truly recycle because the technology
> is so quickly outdated. We can better recycle (refurbish) a peristaltic
> pump than a computer -- mechanisms tend not to go obsolete as quickly.
> > Have you put these thoughts
> > and experiences into a blog? SED is not quite the right place.
> > I expect you have more to say ;-)
> No. It is actually very depressing when you see truckloads (semi's)
> full of stuff pull in and know you'll only be able to "recover" a
> small percentage of their contents.
>
> When I've taken friends through for "tours", they are impressed
> by the quantity of goods. Instead, they should be APPALLED!
>
> And, you feel like an "enabler" -- the firm donating the items likely
> thinks they are doing their part... if they truly knew how inefficient
> their efforts were, you wonder if they would:
> - stop trying
> - try harder (including reconsidering their purchases)!
>
> At the same time, when Ma&Pa Kettle drive in with some 20 year
> old PC that they want to donate -- thinking some needy kid will
> benefit from their donation... you can't tell them that it's just
> so much *scrap*! :<
>
> Look around your area. I'm sure there are some folks doing this sort
> of thing (I've managed to find groups in various parts of the country).
> A tour can be enlightening (depressing).
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