I am using these 3S (12V) batteries with LED meter. Normally, the LED meter shows SOC (State of Charge). But when the SOH (State of Health) is low, the BMS cut off prematurely as low as 11V. I can still by-pass the BMS and charge it to 12V.

I am wondering if it is doing that to alert the user to replace the unit. Basically using a single meter for both SOC and SOH, just to save a few LEDs.

On 9/15/2022 6:54 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> I am using these 3S (12V) batteries with LED meter. Normally, the LED meter
> shows SOC (State of Charge). But when the SOH (State of Health) is low, the
> BMS cut off prematurely as low as 11V. I can still by-pass the BMS and
> charge it to 12V.
>
> I am wondering if it is doing that to alert the user to replace the unit.
> Basically using a single meter for both SOC and SOH, just to save a few
> LEDs.

Does the indicator tell you when it is displaying SOC vs. SOH?
Or, does it simply determine both and "decide" based on a combination
of criteria that may not be visible to you?

On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 1:46:15 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/15/2022 6:54 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > I am using these 3S (12V) batteries with LED meter. Normally, the LED meter
> > shows SOC (State of Charge). But when the SOH (State of Health) is low, the
> > BMS cut off prematurely as low as 11V. I can still by-pass the BMS and
> > charge it to 12V.
> >
> > I am wondering if it is doing that to alert the user to replace the unit.
> > Basically using a single meter for both SOC and SOH, just to save a few
> > LEDs.
> Does the indicator tell you when it is displaying SOC vs. SOH?

No.

> Or, does it simply determine both and "decide" based on a combination
> of criteria that may not be visible to you?

Yes, that's what i am guessing.

There are only four LEDs. I guess the user is expected to discard the unit when it cannot be charged up to all four LEDs. So, when the SOH is low, SOC cannot be fully utilized as well.

The unit is 3S9P and usually 50% to 60% overall. Some individual cells are at low as 30%, but no reason not to use them down to 0%.

On 9/16/2022 7:15 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 1:46:15 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>> On 9/15/2022 6:54 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
>>> I am using these 3S (12V) batteries with LED meter. Normally, the LED
>>> meter shows SOC (State of Charge). But when the SOH (State of Health) is
>>> low, the BMS cut off prematurely as low as 11V. I can still by-pass the
>>> BMS and charge it to 12V.
>>>
>>> I am wondering if it is doing that to alert the user to replace the
>>> unit. Basically using a single meter for both SOC and SOH, just to save
>>> a few LEDs.
>> Does the indicator tell you when it is displaying SOC vs. SOH?
>
> No.
>
>> Or, does it simply determine both and "decide" based on a combination of
>> criteria that may not be visible to you?
>
> Yes, that's what i am guessing.
>
> There are only four LEDs. I guess the user is expected to discard the unit
> when it cannot be charged up to all four LEDs. So, when the SOH is low, SOC
> cannot be fully utilized as well.
>
> The unit is 3S9P and usually 50% to 60% overall. Some individual cells are
> at low as 30%, but no reason not to use them down to 0%.

So, the gauge is actually just a glorified "idiot light" -- not intended
to indicate anything NUMERICALLY but, rather a "feel good" sort of
display ("We're ALMOST charged...")

On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 8:27:07 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/16/2022 7:15 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 1:46:15 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> >> On 9/15/2022 6:54 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> >>> I am using these 3S (12V) batteries with LED meter. Normally, the LED
> >>> meter shows SOC (State of Charge). But when the SOH (State of Health) is
> >>> low, the BMS cut off prematurely as low as 11V. I can still by-pass the
> >>> BMS and charge it to 12V.
> >>>
> >>> I am wondering if it is doing that to alert the user to replace the
> >>> unit. Basically using a single meter for both SOC and SOH, just to save
> >>> a few LEDs.
> >> Does the indicator tell you when it is displaying SOC vs. SOH?
> >
> > No.
> >
> >> Or, does it simply determine both and "decide" based on a combination of
> >> criteria that may not be visible to you?
> >
> > Yes, that's what i am guessing.
> >
> > There are only four LEDs. I guess the user is expected to discard the unit
> > when it cannot be charged up to all four LEDs. So, when the SOH is low, SOC
> > cannot be fully utilized as well.
> >
> > The unit is 3S9P and usually 50% to 60% overall. Some individual cells are
> > at low as 30%, but no reason not to use them down to 0%.
> So, the gauge is actually just a glorified "idiot light" -- not intended
> to indicate anything NUMERICALLY but, rather a "feel good" sort of
> display ("We're ALMOST charged...")

Yes, that's what i am guessing. They don't want to explain the difference between SOH and SOC. Depending on site policy, never use without 3 or 4 bars. Also, replacing units before fully depleted.

On 9/16/2022 8:36 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 8:27:07 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:

>> So, the gauge is actually just a glorified "idiot light" -- not intended
>> to indicate anything NUMERICALLY but, rather a "feel good" sort of display
>> ("We're ALMOST charged...")
>
> Yes, that's what i am guessing. They don't want to explain the difference
> between SOH and SOC. Depending on site policy, never use without 3 or 4
> bars. Also, replacing units before fully depleted.

Someone technically inclined would examine the batteries in more detail.
But, for a quick GOODNESS indication, "how many bars do you have?"

The batteries on many laptops have equally dismal (visual indicator) reporting.

On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 9:01:11 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> On 9/16/2022 8:36 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 8:27:07 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>
> >> So, the gauge is actually just a glorified "idiot light" -- not intended
> >> to indicate anything NUMERICALLY but, rather a "feel good" sort of display
> >> ("We're ALMOST charged...")
> >
> > Yes, that's what i am guessing. They don't want to explain the difference
> > between SOH and SOC. Depending on site policy, never use without 3 or 4
> > bars. Also, replacing units before fully depleted.
> Someone technically inclined would examine the batteries in more detail.
> But, for a quick GOODNESS indication, "how many bars do you have?"
>
> The batteries on many laptops have equally dismal (visual indicator) reporting.

Yes, but EV owners are mindful of both SOH and SOC.

On 9/16/2022 9:09 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 9:01:11 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>> On 9/16/2022 8:36 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
>>> On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 8:27:07 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
>>
>>>> So, the gauge is actually just a glorified "idiot light" -- not intended
>>>> to indicate anything NUMERICALLY but, rather a "feel good" sort of display
>>>> ("We're ALMOST charged...")
>>>
>>> Yes, that's what i am guessing. They don't want to explain the difference
>>> between SOH and SOC. Depending on site policy, never use without 3 or 4
>>> bars. Also, replacing units before fully depleted.
>> Someone technically inclined would examine the batteries in more detail.
>> But, for a quick GOODNESS indication, "how many bars do you have?"
>>
>> The batteries on many laptops have equally dismal (visual indicator) reporting.
>
> Yes, but EV owners are mindful of both SOH and SOC.

Then I would suggest the chosen battery is not appropriate for that
market/use.

On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 11:36:28 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 8:27:07 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > On 9/16/2022 7:15 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 1:46:15 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > >> On 9/15/2022 6:54 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > >>> I am using these 3S (12V) batteries with LED meter. Normally, the LED
> > >>> meter shows SOC (State of Charge). But when the SOH (State of Health) is
> > >>> low, the BMS cut off prematurely as low as 11V. I can still by-pass the
> > >>> BMS and charge it to 12V.
> > >>>
> > >>> I am wondering if it is doing that to alert the user to replace the
> > >>> unit. Basically using a single meter for both SOC and SOH, just to save
> > >>> a few LEDs.
> > >> Does the indicator tell you when it is displaying SOC vs. SOH?
> > >
> > > No.
> > >
> > >> Or, does it simply determine both and "decide" based on a combination of
> > >> criteria that may not be visible to you?
> > >
> > > Yes, that's what i am guessing.
> > >
> > > There are only four LEDs. I guess the user is expected to discard the unit
> > > when it cannot be charged up to all four LEDs. So, when the SOH is low, SOC
> > > cannot be fully utilized as well.
> > >
> > > The unit is 3S9P and usually 50% to 60% overall. Some individual cells are
> > > at low as 30%, but no reason not to use them down to 0%.
> > So, the gauge is actually just a glorified "idiot light" -- not intended
> > to indicate anything NUMERICALLY but, rather a "feel good" sort of
> > display ("We're ALMOST charged...")
> Yes, that's what i am guessing. They don't want to explain the difference between SOH and SOC. Depending on site policy, never use without 3 or 4 bars. Also, replacing units before fully depleted.

You have not properly explained this. How do you know there is both SOC and SOH, documentation? Yet it says nothing as to how to know when which is displayed?

I'm not really following what you are describing. I don't know why you worry with such a poorly designed product. Why not use something that works properly?

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sunday, September 18, 2022 at 12:44:42 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 11:36:28 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 8:27:07 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > On 9/16/2022 7:15 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 1:46:15 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > >> On 9/15/2022 6:54 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > >>> I am using these 3S (12V) batteries with LED meter. Normally, the LED
> > > >>> meter shows SOC (State of Charge). But when the SOH (State of Health) is
> > > >>> low, the BMS cut off prematurely as low as 11V. I can still by-pass the
> > > >>> BMS and charge it to 12V.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I am wondering if it is doing that to alert the user to replace the
> > > >>> unit. Basically using a single meter for both SOC and SOH, just to save
> > > >>> a few LEDs.
> > > >> Does the indicator tell you when it is displaying SOC vs. SOH?
> > > >
> > > > No.
> > > >
> > > >> Or, does it simply determine both and "decide" based on a combination of
> > > >> criteria that may not be visible to you?
> > > >
> > > > Yes, that's what i am guessing.
> > > >
> > > > There are only four LEDs. I guess the user is expected to discard the unit
> > > > when it cannot be charged up to all four LEDs. So, when the SOH is low, SOC
> > > > cannot be fully utilized as well.
> > > >
> > > > The unit is 3S9P and usually 50% to 60% overall. Some individual cells are
> > > > at low as 30%, but no reason not to use them down to 0%.
> > > So, the gauge is actually just a glorified "idiot light" -- not intended
> > > to indicate anything NUMERICALLY but, rather a "feel good" sort of
> > > display ("We're ALMOST charged...")
> > Yes, that's what i am guessing. They don't want to explain the difference between SOH and SOC. Depending on site policy, never use without 3 or 4 bars. Also, replacing units before fully depleted.
> You have not properly explained this. How do you know there is both SOC and SOH, documentation? Yet it says nothing as to how to know when which is displayed?

There are only four LED bars. The manual only says charge to 4 bars before use, and replace battery if less than 4 bars are shown. So, the LED bars are really SOC, except when SOH is low. The BMS will cut-off voltage prematurely.

> I'm not really following what you are describing. I don't know why you worry with such a poorly designed product. Why not use something that works properly?

I guess that include all laptops, tablets and phones. They don't really show you SOH.

On Sunday, September 18, 2022 at 10:11:39 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Sunday, September 18, 2022 at 12:44:42 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 11:36:28 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 8:27:07 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > > On 9/16/2022 7:15 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 1:46:15 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > > >> On 9/15/2022 6:54 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > >>> I am using these 3S (12V) batteries with LED meter. Normally, the LED
> > > > >>> meter shows SOC (State of Charge). But when the SOH (State of Health) is
> > > > >>> low, the BMS cut off prematurely as low as 11V. I can still by-pass the
> > > > >>> BMS and charge it to 12V.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I am wondering if it is doing that to alert the user to replace the
> > > > >>> unit. Basically using a single meter for both SOC and SOH, just to save
> > > > >>> a few LEDs.
> > > > >> Does the indicator tell you when it is displaying SOC vs. SOH?
> > > > >
> > > > > No.
> > > > >
> > > > >> Or, does it simply determine both and "decide" based on a combination of
> > > > >> criteria that may not be visible to you?
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, that's what i am guessing.
> > > > >
> > > > > There are only four LEDs. I guess the user is expected to discard the unit
> > > > > when it cannot be charged up to all four LEDs. So, when the SOH is low, SOC
> > > > > cannot be fully utilized as well.
> > > > >
> > > > > The unit is 3S9P and usually 50% to 60% overall. Some individual cells are
> > > > > at low as 30%, but no reason not to use them down to 0%.
> > > > So, the gauge is actually just a glorified "idiot light" -- not intended
> > > > to indicate anything NUMERICALLY but, rather a "feel good" sort of
> > > > display ("We're ALMOST charged...")
> > > Yes, that's what i am guessing. They don't want to explain the difference between SOH and SOC. Depending on site policy, never use without 3 or 4 bars. Also, replacing units before fully depleted.
> > You have not properly explained this. How do you know there is both SOC and SOH, documentation? Yet it says nothing as to how to know when which is displayed?
> There are only four LED bars. The manual only says charge to 4 bars before use, and replace battery if less than 4 bars are shown. So, the LED bars are really SOC, except when SOH is low. The BMS will cut-off voltage prematurely.
> > I'm not really following what you are describing. I don't know why you worry with such a poorly designed product. Why not use something that works properly?
> I guess that include all laptops, tablets and phones. They don't really show you SOH.

Both my cell and my laptop show state of health. What are you talking about???

What I don't get is how you can tell the gadget is showing SoH rather than SoC. Sounds to me like you can't know. I like the idea that it shows SoH when SoH is low. So if you see a low reading, how do you know it's not a good SoH and a low SoC? SoC will change rapidly with use. SoH should only change very gradually with use. If you can't see SoH until it's already "low" (whatever "low" means) it seems pretty pointless.

Wait, "replace battery if less than 4 bars are shown"??? Why would you replace a rechargeable battery just because it's not fully charged??? Are you saying, 3 bars of SoH is "low"?

This is why I hate discussing stuff with you. You never explain anything clearly the first time. It's always a battle getting the info from you.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Sunday, September 18, 2022 at 9:50:26 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> On Sunday, September 18, 2022 at 10:11:39 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 18, 2022 at 12:44:42 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 11:36:28 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 8:27:07 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > > > On 9/16/2022 7:15 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 1:46:15 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > > > >> On 9/15/2022 6:54 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > >>> I am using these 3S (12V) batteries with LED meter. Normally, the LED
> > > > > >>> meter shows SOC (State of Charge). But when the SOH (State of Health) is
> > > > > >>> low, the BMS cut off prematurely as low as 11V. I can still by-pass the
> > > > > >>> BMS and charge it to 12V.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> I am wondering if it is doing that to alert the user to replace the
> > > > > >>> unit. Basically using a single meter for both SOC and SOH, just to save
> > > > > >>> a few LEDs.
> > > > > >> Does the indicator tell you when it is displaying SOC vs. SOH?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> Or, does it simply determine both and "decide" based on a combination of
> > > > > >> criteria that may not be visible to you?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, that's what i am guessing.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There are only four LEDs. I guess the user is expected to discard the unit
> > > > > > when it cannot be charged up to all four LEDs. So, when the SOH is low, SOC
> > > > > > cannot be fully utilized as well.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The unit is 3S9P and usually 50% to 60% overall. Some individual cells are
> > > > > > at low as 30%, but no reason not to use them down to 0%.
> > > > > So, the gauge is actually just a glorified "idiot light" -- not intended
> > > > > to indicate anything NUMERICALLY but, rather a "feel good" sort of
> > > > > display ("We're ALMOST charged...")
> > > > Yes, that's what i am guessing. They don't want to explain the difference between SOH and SOC. Depending on site policy, never use without 3 or 4 bars. Also, replacing units before fully depleted.
> > > You have not properly explained this. How do you know there is both SOC and SOH, documentation? Yet it says nothing as to how to know when which is displayed?
> > There are only four LED bars. The manual only says charge to 4 bars before use, and replace battery if less than 4 bars are shown. So, the LED bars are really SOC, except when SOH is low. The BMS will cut-off voltage prematurely.
> > > I'm not really following what you are describing. I don't know why you worry with such a poorly designed product. Why not use something that works properly?
> > I guess that include all laptops, tablets and phones. They don't really show you SOH.
> Both my cell and my laptop show state of health. What are you talking about???

Mine only show one bar meter: SOC. I have to guess SOH by how long to charge/discharge.

> What I don't get is how you can tell the gadget is showing SoH rather than SoC. Sounds to me like you can't know. I like the idea that it shows SoH when SoH is low. So if you see a low reading, how do you know it's not a good SoH and a low SoC? SoC will change rapidly with use. SoH should only change very gradually with use. If you can't see SoH until it's already "low" (whatever "low" means) it seems pretty pointless.

I can measure the voltage (11.2V) when the BMS cutoff from charger.

> Wait, "replace battery if less than 4 bars are shown"??? Why would you replace a rechargeable battery just because it's not fully charged??? Are you saying, 3 bars of SoH is "low"?

Some critical (medical) usages mandate 4 bars. Some non-critical usages allows 3 bars. It needs to be replaced because it cannot be charged beyond 2 bars, when the BMS cutoff from charger.

> This is why I hate discussing stuff with you. You never explain anything clearly the first time. It's always a battle getting the info from you.

I said it several times that the battery internal BMS cutoff at low voltage when SOH is low.

On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 12:44:57 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Sunday, September 18, 2022 at 9:50:26 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 18, 2022 at 10:11:39 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > On Sunday, September 18, 2022 at 12:44:42 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > > > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 11:36:28 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 8:27:07 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > > > > On 9/16/2022 7:15 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 1:46:15 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > > > > >> On 9/15/2022 6:54 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > >>> I am using these 3S (12V) batteries with LED meter. Normally, the LED
> > > > > > >>> meter shows SOC (State of Charge). But when the SOH (State of Health) is
> > > > > > >>> low, the BMS cut off prematurely as low as 11V. I can still by-pass the
> > > > > > >>> BMS and charge it to 12V.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> I am wondering if it is doing that to alert the user to replace the
> > > > > > >>> unit. Basically using a single meter for both SOC and SOH, just to save
> > > > > > >>> a few LEDs.
> > > > > > >> Does the indicator tell you when it is displaying SOC vs. SOH?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > No.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >> Or, does it simply determine both and "decide" based on a combination of
> > > > > > >> criteria that may not be visible to you?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes, that's what i am guessing.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are only four LEDs. I guess the user is expected to discard the unit
> > > > > > > when it cannot be charged up to all four LEDs. So, when the SOH is low, SOC
> > > > > > > cannot be fully utilized as well.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The unit is 3S9P and usually 50% to 60% overall. Some individual cells are
> > > > > > > at low as 30%, but no reason not to use them down to 0%.
> > > > > > So, the gauge is actually just a glorified "idiot light" -- not intended
> > > > > > to indicate anything NUMERICALLY but, rather a "feel good" sort of
> > > > > > display ("We're ALMOST charged...")
> > > > > Yes, that's what i am guessing. They don't want to explain the difference between SOH and SOC. Depending on site policy, never use without 3 or 4 bars. Also, replacing units before fully depleted.
> > > > You have not properly explained this. How do you know there is both SOC and SOH, documentation? Yet it says nothing as to how to know when which is displayed?
> > > There are only four LED bars. The manual only says charge to 4 bars before use, and replace battery if less than 4 bars are shown. So, the LED bars are really SOC, except when SOH is low. The BMS will cut-off voltage prematurely.
> > > > I'm not really following what you are describing. I don't know why you worry with such a poorly designed product. Why not use something that works properly?
> > > I guess that include all laptops, tablets and phones. They don't really show you SOH.
> > Both my cell and my laptop show state of health. What are you talking about???
> Mine only show one bar meter: SOC. I have to guess SOH by how long to charge/discharge.

SoH is just the charging capacity divided by the initial charging capacity. I use a charging app so I don't charge to 100% and it does that division for me.

> > What I don't get is how you can tell the gadget is showing SoH rather than SoC. Sounds to me like you can't know. I like the idea that it shows SoH when SoH is low. So if you see a low reading, how do you know it's not a good SoH and a low SoC? SoC will change rapidly with use. SoH should only change very gradually with use. If you can't see SoH until it's already "low" (whatever "low" means) it seems pretty pointless.
> I can measure the voltage (11.2V) when the BMS cutoff from charger.

So you use a voltmeter to check to see if the indicator is SoC or SoH? Maybe you should rig a threshold and an LED to let you know.

> > Wait, "replace battery if less than 4 bars are shown"??? Why would you replace a rechargeable battery just because it's not fully charged??? Are you saying, 3 bars of SoH is "low"?
> Some critical (medical) usages mandate 4 bars. Some non-critical usages allows 3 bars. It needs to be replaced because it cannot be charged beyond 2 bars, when the BMS cutoff from charger.

You mean SoH? When you say "bars", I can't tell what you are talking about.. It's silly for a medical device to care about "bars". There should be a good measurement of battery capacity and the device should request/demand a battery replacement when it gets to some threshold of maximum charge. "Bars" from a battery indicator is not very useful since you don't actually know where the arbitrary threshold is.

> > This is why I hate discussing stuff with you. You never explain anything clearly the first time. It's always a battle getting the info from you.
> I said it several times that the battery internal BMS cutoff at low voltage when SOH is low.

Which means what for reading the "bars"? What does "low" mean, one bar, two bars, three bars? You still don't get that you often make no sense, because you don't understand what you have communicated clearly and what you've munged badly. I'm not standing beside you. There's no context to your comments. It matters if you don't connect the dots clearly.

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 10:25:00 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 12:44:57 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 18, 2022 at 9:50:26 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > > On Sunday, September 18, 2022 at 10:11:39 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, September 18, 2022 at 12:44:42 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 11:36:28 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 8:27:07 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > > > > > On 9/16/2022 7:15 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 1:46:15 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > > > > > >> On 9/15/2022 6:54 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > > >>> I am using these 3S (12V) batteries with LED meter. Normally, the LED
> > > > > > > >>> meter shows SOC (State of Charge). But when the SOH (State of Health) is
> > > > > > > >>> low, the BMS cut off prematurely as low as 11V. I can still by-pass the
> > > > > > > >>> BMS and charge it to 12V.
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> I am wondering if it is doing that to alert the user to replace the
> > > > > > > >>> unit. Basically using a single meter for both SOC and SOH, just to save
> > > > > > > >>> a few LEDs.
> > > > > > > >> Does the indicator tell you when it is displaying SOC vs. SOH?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > No.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >> Or, does it simply determine both and "decide" based on a combination of
> > > > > > > >> criteria that may not be visible to you?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes, that's what i am guessing.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > There are only four LEDs. I guess the user is expected to discard the unit
> > > > > > > > when it cannot be charged up to all four LEDs. So, when the SOH is low, SOC
> > > > > > > > cannot be fully utilized as well.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The unit is 3S9P and usually 50% to 60% overall. Some individual cells are
> > > > > > > > at low as 30%, but no reason not to use them down to 0%.
> > > > > > > So, the gauge is actually just a glorified "idiot light" -- not intended
> > > > > > > to indicate anything NUMERICALLY but, rather a "feel good" sort of
> > > > > > > display ("We're ALMOST charged...")
> > > > > > Yes, that's what i am guessing. They don't want to explain the difference between SOH and SOC. Depending on site policy, never use without 3 or 4 bars. Also, replacing units before fully depleted.
> > > > > You have not properly explained this. How do you know there is both SOC and SOH, documentation? Yet it says nothing as to how to know when which is displayed?
> > > > There are only four LED bars. The manual only says charge to 4 bars before use, and replace battery if less than 4 bars are shown. So, the LED bars are really SOC, except when SOH is low. The BMS will cut-off voltage prematurely.
> > > > > I'm not really following what you are describing. I don't know why you worry with such a poorly designed product. Why not use something that works properly?
> > > > I guess that include all laptops, tablets and phones. They don't really show you SOH.
> > > Both my cell and my laptop show state of health. What are you talking about???
> > Mine only show one bar meter: SOC. I have to guess SOH by how long to charge/discharge.
> SoH is just the charging capacity divided by the initial charging capacity.

SOH is how much capacity left in the battery.

> I use a charging app so I don't charge to 100% and it does that division for me.

That's SOC.

> > > What I don't get is how you can tell the gadget is showing SoH rather than SoC. Sounds to me like you can't know. I like the idea that it shows SoH when SoH is low. So if you see a low reading, how do you know it's not a good SoH and a low SoC?

If it can't be charged anymore, then it's low SOH.

> SoC will change rapidly with use. SoH should only change very gradually with use. If you can't see SoH until it's already "low" (whatever "low" means) it seems pretty pointless.

Low means battery replacement.

> > I can measure the voltage (11.2V) when the BMS cutoff from charger.
> So you use a voltmeter to check to see if the indicator is SoC or SoH? Maybe you should rig a threshold and an LED to let you know.

Yes, i am planning on that. I can also by-pass the BMS with 12V shunt, but i lose over-current and cell balancing.

> > > Wait, "replace battery if less than 4 bars are shown"??? Why would you replace a rechargeable battery just because it's not fully charged??? Are you saying, 3 bars of SoH is "low"?
> > Some critical (medical) usages mandate 4 bars. Some non-critical usages allows 3 bars. It needs to be replaced because it cannot be charged beyond 2 bars, when the BMS cutoff from charger.
> You mean SoH? When you say "bars", I can't tell what you are talking about. It's silly for a medical device to care about "bars". There should be a good measurement of battery capacity and the device should request/demand a battery replacement when it gets to some threshold of maximum charge. "Bars" from a battery indicator is not very useful since you don't actually know where the arbitrary threshold is.

2 bars mean it's 50% left. If it can't be charged more than 50%, it has to be replaced in the original medical usage.

> > > This is why I hate discussing stuff with you. You never explain anything clearly the first time. It's always a battle getting the info from you.
> > I said it several times that the battery internal BMS cutoff at low voltage when SOH is low.
> Which means what for reading the "bars"? What does "low" mean, one bar, two bars, three bars? You still don't get that you often make no sense, because you don't understand what you have communicated clearly and what you've munged badly. I'm not standing beside you. There's no context to your comments. It matters if you don't connect the dots clearly.

One bar is 25%. two is 50%. three is 75%. four is 100%. Sound pretty clear to me.

On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 1:46:09 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 10:25:00 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 12:44:57 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > On Sunday, September 18, 2022 at 9:50:26 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, September 18, 2022 at 10:11:39 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, September 18, 2022 at 12:44:42 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 11:36:28 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 8:27:07 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > > > > > > On 9/16/2022 7:15 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 1:46:15 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> On 9/15/2022 6:54 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > > > >>> I am using these 3S (12V) batteries with LED meter. Normally, the LED
> > > > > > > > >>> meter shows SOC (State of Charge). But when the SOH (State of Health) is
> > > > > > > > >>> low, the BMS cut off prematurely as low as 11V. I can still by-pass the
> > > > > > > > >>> BMS and charge it to 12V.
> > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > >>> I am wondering if it is doing that to alert the user to replace the
> > > > > > > > >>> unit. Basically using a single meter for both SOC and SOH, just to save
> > > > > > > > >>> a few LEDs.
> > > > > > > > >> Does the indicator tell you when it is displaying SOC vs.. SOH?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > No.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >> Or, does it simply determine both and "decide" based on a combination of
> > > > > > > > >> criteria that may not be visible to you?
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Yes, that's what i am guessing.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There are only four LEDs. I guess the user is expected to discard the unit
> > > > > > > > > when it cannot be charged up to all four LEDs. So, when the SOH is low, SOC
> > > > > > > > > cannot be fully utilized as well.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The unit is 3S9P and usually 50% to 60% overall. Some individual cells are
> > > > > > > > > at low as 30%, but no reason not to use them down to 0%.
> > > > > > > > So, the gauge is actually just a glorified "idiot light" -- not intended
> > > > > > > > to indicate anything NUMERICALLY but, rather a "feel good" sort of
> > > > > > > > display ("We're ALMOST charged...")
> > > > > > > Yes, that's what i am guessing. They don't want to explain the difference between SOH and SOC. Depending on site policy, never use without 3 or 4 bars. Also, replacing units before fully depleted.
> > > > > > You have not properly explained this. How do you know there is both SOC and SOH, documentation? Yet it says nothing as to how to know when which is displayed?
> > > > > There are only four LED bars. The manual only says charge to 4 bars before use, and replace battery if less than 4 bars are shown. So, the LED bars are really SOC, except when SOH is low. The BMS will cut-off voltage prematurely.
> > > > > > I'm not really following what you are describing. I don't know why you worry with such a poorly designed product. Why not use something that works properly?
> > > > > I guess that include all laptops, tablets and phones. They don't really show you SOH.
> > > > Both my cell and my laptop show state of health. What are you talking about???
> > > Mine only show one bar meter: SOC. I have to guess SOH by how long to charge/discharge.
> > SoH is just the charging capacity divided by the initial charging capacity.
> SOH is how much capacity left in the battery.

Measured relative to the original capacity, so "divided by".

> > I use a charging app so I don't charge to 100% and it does that division for me.
> That's SOC.

It measures both as I explained.

> > > > What I don't get is how you can tell the gadget is showing SoH rather than SoC. Sounds to me like you can't know. I like the idea that it shows SoH when SoH is low. So if you see a low reading, how do you know it's not a good SoH and a low SoC?
> If it can't be charged anymore, then it's low SOH.

That's not a "low SoH". That's dead.

> > SoC will change rapidly with use. SoH should only change very gradually with use. If you can't see SoH until it's already "low" (whatever "low" means) it seems pretty pointless.
> Low means battery replacement.

So, when it shows SoH, it's always zero bars? Got it!

> > > I can measure the voltage (11.2V) when the BMS cutoff from charger.
> > So you use a voltmeter to check to see if the indicator is SoC or SoH? Maybe you should rig a threshold and an LED to let you know.
> Yes, i am planning on that. I can also by-pass the BMS with 12V shunt, but i lose over-current and cell balancing.

I'm being facetious. This whole thing sounds like it should be tossed and started over.

> > > > Wait, "replace battery if less than 4 bars are shown"??? Why would you replace a rechargeable battery just because it's not fully charged??? Are you saying, 3 bars of SoH is "low"?
> > > Some critical (medical) usages mandate 4 bars. Some non-critical usages allows 3 bars. It needs to be replaced because it cannot be charged beyond 2 bars, when the BMS cutoff from charger.
> > You mean SoH? When you say "bars", I can't tell what you are talking about. It's silly for a medical device to care about "bars". There should be a good measurement of battery capacity and the device should request/demand a battery replacement when it gets to some threshold of maximum charge. "Bars" from a battery indicator is not very useful since you don't actually know where the arbitrary threshold is.
> 2 bars mean it's 50% left. If it can't be charged more than 50%, it has to be replaced in the original medical usage.

Oh, so when it has 60% left it shows 2.4 bars? 40% shows 1.6 bars?

> > > > This is why I hate discussing stuff with you. You never explain anything clearly the first time. It's always a battle getting the info from you.
> > > I said it several times that the battery internal BMS cutoff at low voltage when SOH is low.
> > Which means what for reading the "bars"? What does "low" mean, one bar, two bars, three bars? You still don't get that you often make no sense, because you don't understand what you have communicated clearly and what you've munged badly. I'm not standing beside you. There's no context to your comments. It matters if you don't connect the dots clearly.
> One bar is 25%. two is 50%. three is 75%. four is 100%. Sound pretty clear to me.

If the state were quantized.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 6:58:09 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 1:46:09 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 10:25:00 AM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > > On Monday, September 19, 2022 at 12:44:57 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, September 18, 2022 at 9:50:26 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, September 18, 2022 at 10:11:39 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, September 18, 2022 at 12:44:42 PM UTC-7, Ricky wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 11:36:28 AM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 8:27:07 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On 9/16/2022 7:15 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Friday, September 16, 2022 at 1:46:15 AM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >> On 9/15/2022 6:54 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >>> I am using these 3S (12V) batteries with LED meter. Normally, the LED
> > > > > > > > > >>> meter shows SOC (State of Charge). But when the SOH (State of Health) is
> > > > > > > > > >>> low, the BMS cut off prematurely as low as 11V. I can still by-pass the
> > > > > > > > > >>> BMS and charge it to 12V.
> > > > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > > > >>> I am wondering if it is doing that to alert the user to replace the
> > > > > > > > > >>> unit. Basically using a single meter for both SOC and SOH, just to save
> > > > > > > > > >>> a few LEDs.
> > > > > > > > > >> Does the indicator tell you when it is displaying SOC vs. SOH?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > No.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >> Or, does it simply determine both and "decide" based on a combination of
> > > > > > > > > >> criteria that may not be visible to you?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Yes, that's what i am guessing.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > There are only four LEDs. I guess the user is expected to discard the unit
> > > > > > > > > > when it cannot be charged up to all four LEDs. So, when the SOH is low, SOC
> > > > > > > > > > cannot be fully utilized as well.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The unit is 3S9P and usually 50% to 60% overall. Some individual cells are
> > > > > > > > > > at low as 30%, but no reason not to use them down to 0%..
> > > > > > > > > So, the gauge is actually just a glorified "idiot light" -- not intended
> > > > > > > > > to indicate anything NUMERICALLY but, rather a "feel good" sort of
> > > > > > > > > display ("We're ALMOST charged...")
> > > > > > > > Yes, that's what i am guessing. They don't want to explain the difference between SOH and SOC. Depending on site policy, never use without 3 or 4 bars. Also, replacing units before fully depleted.
> > > > > > > You have not properly explained this. How do you know there is both SOC and SOH, documentation? Yet it says nothing as to how to know when which is displayed?
> > > > > > There are only four LED bars. The manual only says charge to 4 bars before use, and replace battery if less than 4 bars are shown. So, the LED bars are really SOC, except when SOH is low. The BMS will cut-off voltage prematurely.
> > > > > > > I'm not really following what you are describing. I don't know why you worry with such a poorly designed product. Why not use something that works properly?
> > > > > > I guess that include all laptops, tablets and phones. They don't really show you SOH.
> > > > > Both my cell and my laptop show state of health. What are you talking about???
> > > > Mine only show one bar meter: SOC. I have to guess SOH by how long to charge/discharge.
> > > SoH is just the charging capacity divided by the initial charging capacity.
> > SOH is how much capacity left in the battery.
> Measured relative to the original capacity, so "divided by".
> > > I use a charging app so I don't charge to 100% and it does that division for me.
> > That's SOC.
> It measures both as I explained.
> > > > > What I don't get is how you can tell the gadget is showing SoH rather than SoC. Sounds to me like you can't know. I like the idea that it shows SoH when SoH is low. So if you see a low reading, how do you know it's not a good SoH and a low SoC?
> > If it can't be charged anymore, then it's low SOH.
> That's not a "low SoH". That's dead.
> > > SoC will change rapidly with use. SoH should only change very gradually with use. If you can't see SoH until it's already "low" (whatever "low" means) it seems pretty pointless.
> > Low means battery replacement.
> So, when it shows SoH, it's always zero bars? Got it!
> > > > I can measure the voltage (11.2V) when the BMS cutoff from charger.
> > > So you use a voltmeter to check to see if the indicator is SoC or SoH? Maybe you should rig a threshold and an LED to let you know.
> > Yes, i am planning on that. I can also by-pass the BMS with 12V shunt, but i lose over-current and cell balancing.
> I'm being facetious. This whole thing sounds like it should be tossed and started over.
> > > > > Wait, "replace battery if less than 4 bars are shown"??? Why would you replace a rechargeable battery just because it's not fully charged??? Are you saying, 3 bars of SoH is "low"?
> > > > Some critical (medical) usages mandate 4 bars. Some non-critical usages allows 3 bars. It needs to be replaced because it cannot be charged beyond 2 bars, when the BMS cutoff from charger.
> > > You mean SoH? When you say "bars", I can't tell what you are talking about. It's silly for a medical device to care about "bars". There should be a good measurement of battery capacity and the device should request/demand a battery replacement when it gets to some threshold of maximum charge. "Bars" from a battery indicator is not very useful since you don't actually know where the arbitrary threshold is.
> > 2 bars mean it's 50% left. If it can't be charged more than 50%, it has to be replaced in the original medical usage.
> Oh, so when it has 60% left it shows 2.4 bars? 40% shows 1.6 bars?
> > > > > This is why I hate discussing stuff with you. You never explain anything clearly the first time. It's always a battle getting the info from you.
> > > > I said it several times that the battery internal BMS cutoff at low voltage when SOH is low.
> > > Which means what for reading the "bars"? What does "low" mean, one bar, two bars, three bars? You still don't get that you often make no sense, because you don't understand what you have communicated clearly and what you've munged badly. I'm not standing beside you. There's no context to your comments. It matters if you don't connect the dots clearly.
> > One bar is 25%. two is 50%. three is 75%. four is 100%. Sound pretty clear to me.
> If the state were quantized.

There is no fractional bars. I don't really care about the LED bars, but actual voltage level and behaviour of the BMS. The battery can discharge fully from 12V to 8V, charge from 8V to 11V via the BMS and 11V to 12V without BMS. I just wish there is a way to disable the premature cutoff at 11V.